What would happen to Irish and scots pro teams if the welsh regions jump ship?

The worrying state of welsh regional rugby has the possibility of dragging northern hemisphere rugby to its knees at the moment should the existing regions move to the English league.it may or may not be a short term fix for some of the welsh sides at the moment but the effect on the international game could be disastrous in this part of the world. For all the conjecture of the welsh and English about what the benefits of such a move would be I have heard surprisingly little from the scots and Irish for whom such a move would be a doomsday scenario and possibly finish professional rugby in both countries.

Should the welsh move to the premiership where would the competition come from for the scots and Irish and Italians come to that..how could rugby in those countries then be sustained. Does anyone think the regions are looking at the long term repercussions of what they are considering or is it very much Everyman for himself at the moment.

I don't think another team from Scotland or Italy is realistic so i would settle for:

London Scottish
London Welsh
London Irish (is it possible?)
North Valley or the Dragons (who are 50% wru)

Another alternative could be 2 teams with the best of Georgia and the best of Romania.
Bringing Pampas of Argentina back to life could be a possibility too.

If the Pro12 collapsed the IRFU and the SRU would sue the WRU for loss of income and it would bankrupt Welsh rugby

Nothing would happen to them. The WRU would be obliged to put in 4 teams to the Rabo, so it would carry on as normal. These teams are likely to be poorer in quality so would be towards the bottom end of the league. Qualification for the future European competition, likely being based on meritocracy, would see the Irish and scots finishing in positions 1 through 6 in the Rabo, with the welsh bringing up the rear and thus going into the 2nd tier euro comp. So it would probably be good for the Irish and Scots from a European point of view, but not so good in terms of competition and standard of opposition from a domestic league point of view (although this years welsh offering doesn't seem to be offering much competition either!).

I would like to see the old interpros resurrected with full teams. Wouldn't be a problem from a fans point of view but wouldn't be a replacement for a league and sponsorship monies would need to be big, I don't know how much truth be told

The WRU would restructure Welsh rugby I think.


I do think the Pro12 have to look further afield for new teams. Belgium, Spain, Germany, Holland, Switzerland etc. If not them how about looking westwards across the atlantic. Canada and the USA could support a team or two each.


Essentially you only need 10 teams in the league. It was grand like that until the italians joined a few years back. That ment 4 extra rounds of games per season and so 4 more games where the best players are not picked.

It's really sad that we have been put int his situation as fans of our regions. It wouldn't be nice to leave the Irish, Italian and Scots standing in the Rabo but at the end of the day we have to do what's best for us. All i'm saying is that if you are a Irish, Scottish or Italian rugby fans and you were in our current predicament, What would you want your regions to do?
I think a British League, French/Italians league would be the way forward for European rugby but it will never happen.
If our regions did leave teams would be put in place instead of them e.g. Pontypridd but the league would suffer a bit. The Irish wouldn't have  problem as they have great set ups an players, the only teams to struggle would be the Scots and Italians.

In terms if the league itself if as Griff mentions WP teams come in it wouldn't change significantly. With the exception of the ospreys. The three provinces would still be out in front with Glasgow. If Edinburgh keep improving they could be a player.

profitius wrote:

I do think the Pro12 have to look further afield for new teams. Belgium, Spain, Germany, Holland, Switzerland etc. If not them how about looking westwards across the atlantic. Canada and the USA could support a team or two each.


Essentially you only need 10 teams in the league. It was grand like that until the italians joined a few years back. That ment 4 extra rounds of games per season and so 4 more games where the best players are not picked.

Canada and USA are great shouts indeed but i think 10 teams isn't enough 12 is fine.

The problem would be though a steady decline in standards and competition though would it not and I include the welsh in this as presumably the wru would not pick these players for international duty.the international game would decline and sponsorship would begin to dry up at league level.the only way I see forward is a British league but it's unlikely as has already been pointed out.

A British league would be great but would take the gloss off Europe to the point where it is redundant. Deciding which teams fit where in what would have to be a two league system would be difficult. A divisional structure like the NFL would be the only solution that I could see but even then you see discrepancies in schedule difficulty

Jhamer25 wrote:It's really sad that we have been put int his situation as fans of our regions. It wouldn't be nice to leave the Irish, Italian and Scots standing in the Rabo but at the end of the day we have to do what's best for us. All i'm saying is that if you are a Irish, Scottish or Italian rugby fans and you were in our current predicament, What would you want your regions to do?
I think a British League, French/Italians league would be the way forward for European rugby but it will never happen.
If our regions did leave teams would be put in place instead of them e.g. Pontypridd but the league would suffer a bit. The Irish wouldn't have  problem as they have great set ups an players, the only teams to struggle would be the Scots and Italians.

If there is a British league and a french/Italian league then where do the Irish teams go?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
If there is a British league and a french/Italian league then where do the Irish teams go?

Maybe they could set up a league all by themselves.

Let's not drag this into semantics a British an Irish league is what was meant no offence. Actually I wonder if a two tier European league is the answer although you could understand why the French with the money already generated in their domestic leagues would not want to participate. Perhaps then we would not want or need a hc

The Welsh are obliged to enter teams for a certain amount of time. Not sure how long. After that, if the Welsh left the Scots, Italians and Irish will continue on without them and re-jig the format and fixture lists as needed. Losing the Welsh would lower the standard of the league.

geoff999rugby wrote:If the Pro12 collapsed the IRFU and the SRU would sue the WRU for loss of income and it would bankrupt Welsh rugby

No. Firstly they could only sue if the WRU failed to provide any teams as contracted. I am sure the WRU would provide some teams. Even if they sue and are successful it would not bankrupt Welsh rugby just the union.

Exiledinborders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:If the Pro12 collapsed the IRFU and the SRU would sue the WRU for loss of income and it would bankrupt Welsh rugby

No. Firstly they could only sue if the WRU failed to provide any teams as contracted. I am sure the WRU would provide some teams. Even if they sue and are successful it would not bankrupt Welsh rugby just the union.

I have read a few comments saying much the same thing, but what evidence do you have in support of a claim that the WRU and/or regions cannot be sued should they leave the Rabo earlier than the contract allows?
The recent comments by Roger Lewis at the regions supporters meeting seem to suggest otherwise:


"JS asked why the WRU would not support the Regions in considering joining the Aviva, if the Regions believed it financially beneficial, particularly as the WRU are always pressing the Regions to generate more income for themselves. RL said that this was due to the difficulty in breaking existing contractual commitments agreed by all parties, including the Regions.

"DD asked why the WRU had not taken up an offer to be part of the discussions around the establishment of an Anglo Welsh League and RL said he had not been asked to attend such a meeting
SH asked whether the WRU were therefore not supportive of an Anglo Welsh League to which RL stated that this was a point for the Regions to consider the serious implications of breaking the existing contracts."

Lewis claims that there are legal implications for the regions should they break the existing contracts (I'm assuming contract with Celtic Rugby Ltd.). Is there evidence to the contrary?

Exiledinborders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:If the Pro12 collapsed the IRFU and the SRU would sue the WRU for loss of income and it would bankrupt Welsh rugby

No. Firstly they could only sue if the WRU failed to provide any teams as contracted. I am sure the WRU would provide some teams. Even if they sue and are successful it would not bankrupt Welsh rugby just the union.

Yes Exile you would be right, and the WRU would be BEGGING the benefactors to stay involved, as they (WRU)were 10 years ago, when these EVIL benefactors got them out of the muck.

I think European Rugby is at a bit of cross roads. What I'd like to see and what I know won't happen is a European league and cup with multiple tiers that feed into the top with promotion and relegation. This way there would be meaningful competition. This way there would bea defined northern hemisphere structure which would help to bring through the developing nations as well. Unfortunately too many unions have too much to lose to ever have that kind of logical thinking.

mckay1402 wrote:I think European Rugby is at a bit of cross roads.   What I'd like to see and what I know won't happen is a European league and cup with multiple tiers that feed into the top with promotion and relegation.  This way there would be meaningful competition.  This way there would bea defined northern hemisphere structure which would help to bring through the developing nations as well.   Unfortunately too many unions have too much to lose to ever have that kind of logical thinking.  

it's not the Unions who have it all to lose- it would mean the number of English teams would have to be cut and the league would have to be ringfenced. Its a non-runner really.

Setting up an Irish League would appear to be the best way forward in order to neutralise the growing French hold over the game. 24 teams with two leagues with ring fencing long term, after one or two years. Top 6 from PRO12, Top 6 from Premiership. And remainder into other division.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote:It's really sad that we have been put int his situation as fans of our regions. It wouldn't be nice to leave the Irish, Italian and Scots standing in the Rabo but at the end of the day we have to do what's best for us. All i'm saying is that if you are a Irish, Scottish or Italian rugby fans and you were in our current predicament, What would you want your regions to do?
I think a British League, French/Italians league would be the way forward for European rugby but it will never happen.
If our regions did leave teams would be put in place instead of them e.g. Pontypridd but the league would suffer a bit. The Irish wouldn't have  problem as they have great set ups an players, the only teams to struggle would be the Scots and Italians.

If there is a British league and a french/Italian league then where do the Irish teams go?

Sorry i meant a British AND Irish league

I would make sense but never come into fruition

Why does everything we do in Europe come down to a league or pools and knockout tournament?
Why not a 24 team British and irish conference (nfl) competition. 10 from pro12, 14 from England, 6 conferences, welsh, irish, northern, London etc where you get as always your local derbies and then a pick of teams from other conferences. Teams are measured against those in their own conference so in the 1/4 finals with top 6 teams + 2 'wildcards' there is at least 1 team from each area.
This would basically take a 20 week season leaving the rest of the year for internationals (which is where some countries can only make money) and domestic developmental tournaments/leagues. It may also save player burnout and you'd be more likely in a shorter season to see your 1st team out every game.

The unions and clubs/regions etc need to work together for Britain and irish interests as the game is going to be taken over completely by the French clubs. They will steal all the best players, it's only the beginning with the welsh, ruining our domestic game then knacker the players out or contract them away from internationals to ruin that game for us too.

All this stuff about the welsh regions wanting to ditch the Scots and irish to join the Jeff, and the unions wanting to accept the prl leaving the hc in favour of sticking by the French is rubbish. We join together for the lions, why are we all intent on screwing each other over now?

As i read it - if the Welsh were to join the AP it would be in the guise of Cardiff,Llanelli,Newport & Swansea with the WRU setting up new "regions" to carry on with the "rabo" which they are legally obliged to for another few seasons yet - for the record,i can't see this actually happening

Notch wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:I think European Rugby is at a bit of cross roads.   What I'd like to see and what I know won't happen is a European league and cup with multiple tiers that feed into the top with promotion and relegation.  This way there would be meaningful competition.  This way there would bea defined northern hemisphere structure which would help to bring through the developing nations as well.   Unfortunately too many unions have too much to lose to ever have that kind of logical thinking.  

it's not the Unions who have it all to lose- it would mean the number of English teams would have to be cut and the league would have to be ringfenced. Its a non-runner really.

Why would the league have to be ringfenced? Also don't see why the amount of English clubs would need to be cut. They just start further down the league tier

A full Celt/Anglo League will not and should not happen the way things are at the moment with the Irish and Scottish teams being union based. More importantly, it should not happen as it may destroy the sport in Italy.

I think it would work fine,possibly in a two or three league system with relegation between the leagues.come up with a best position for each of the separate nations to enter a Europe tournament with the French. The problem would be what happens to the aspiring English sides who want entry to the top tier as none of the celts or Italians could be demoted from the league itself as they would have nowhere to go.

Exiledinborders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:If the Pro12 collapsed the IRFU and the SRU would sue the WRU for loss of income and it would bankrupt Welsh rugby

No. Firstly they could only sue if the WRU failed to provide any teams as contracted. I am sure the WRU would provide some teams. Even if they sue and are successful it would not bankrupt Welsh rugby just the union.

Part of the contractural commitment os to provide teams of a standard - not sure of the exact wording but competitive, best available are the sort of terms I have seen used.
The Pontypridd Arms XV or the Ebbw Vale Community Centre XV won't do.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Exiledinborders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:If the Pro12 collapsed the IRFU and the SRU would sue the WRU for loss of income and it would bankrupt Welsh rugby

No. Firstly they could only sue if the WRU failed to provide any teams as contracted. I am sure the WRU would provide some teams. Even if they sue and are successful it would not bankrupt Welsh rugby just the union.

Part of the contractural commitment os to provide teams of a standard - not sure of the exact wording but competitive, best available are the sort of terms I have seen used.
The Pontypridd Arms XV or the Ebbw Vale Community Centre XV won't do.

Pontypridd, while semi pro, could make the step up to the pro12. They'd get additional funding from the WRU and would probably turn over a few sides at home, more than Zebre do anyway. Don't know who else the WRU would get to stick in the other 3 spots, maybe carmarthen quins? Below that it's ropey.

If it happens, then as other posters have said, the WRU could promote 4 teams from the Welsh Premier league (Tier2) into the RABO. It could work like Football where Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham and Newport all play in the English League pyramid but there is still a League of Wales for other welsh teams.

The talk of teams from USA, Canada, Belgium and Germany etc is a pipe dream.
It's effectively putting Sunday-league/Pub teams into a pro league (look how the Italians struggle for results and crowds) and who would pay to set up North American teams never mind the travel costs and time zone difference. Club Rugby Union doesn't have the competitive depth or resources to countenance such ideas.

If that happens would the players playing for the regions in the AP still be available for international selection?

stevetynant wrote:If that happens would the players playing for the regions in the AP still be available for international selection?

I am sure they would be available during the international windows. Outside of that things could be fun

andyi wrote:
The talk of teams from USA, Canada, Belgium and Germany etc is a pipe dream.
It's effectively putting Sunday-league/Pub teams into a pro league (look how the Italians struggle for results and crowds) and who would pay to set up North American teams never mind the travel costs and time zone difference. Club Rugby Union doesn't have the competitive depth or resources to countenance such ideas.

If and when any of those west or central European countries reach Georgia or Romania's level then you can be sure it wouldn't take long for them to be invited in to play with the top European teams. And those teams I mentioned are getting better all the time.


In the USA all they need is one of their many millionaires to start up a franchise.

profitius wrote:In the USA all they need is one of their many millionaires to start up a franchise.

Having worked for some of the various New York sports teams as part of the medical practice I work with there, I have had a chance to discuss the Rugby with some of their owners, part-owners, backers, and commercial partners.  There is a surprising number of people who played Rugby in their uni days.  The comments from most of those who still follow Rugby closely is the time for an American team(s) in a Euro league or Super Rugby has not quite come yet.  The people I talked to are very interested in some commercial tie-ups and things are progressing quietly.  All who have looked at the business side of Rugby in Europe view it as an unsustainable mess.  One guy told me directly that working with Rugby in Europe would be pisssing money away at the moment.  And this was from a hopeful chap.   Another was incredulous that something as attractive as Rugby could be so grossly mismanaged.

In my mind if the Welsh Regions really do withdraw from the Pro12, it would completely validate the opinion of the Americans I spoke with and would be a sad ruddy nightmare for everyone.

Top post and this is the opinion of many of us Welsh ex pats who are looking in from the big wide world.

A few quick visits to Welsh rugby sites just shows how narrow biased and inward looking a few Welsh posters are.

Allowing the tail to wag the dog is usually a recipe for disaster

profitius wrote:

andyi wrote:
The talk of teams from USA, Canada, Belgium and Germany etc is a pipe dream.
It's effectively putting Sunday-league/Pub teams into a pro league (look how the Italians struggle for results and crowds) and who would pay to set up North American teams never mind the travel costs and time zone difference. Club Rugby Union doesn't have the competitive depth or resources to countenance such ideas.

If and when any of those west or central European countries reach Georgia or Romania's level then you can be sure it wouldn't take long for them to be invited in to play with the top European teams. And those teams I mentioned are getting better all the time.


In the USA all they need is one of their many millionaires to start up a franchise.

Still a long way off in real terms though. There is 1 Romanian team and none from Georgia in the Amlin cup at present.
Also bear in mind the travel expenses if you put them into the RABO.

I admire your optimism but cant agree that these teams are any where near ready to enter a proper pro league right now.

mckay1402 wrote:

Notch wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:I think European Rugby is at a bit of cross roads.   What I'd like to see and what I know won't happen is a European league and cup with multiple tiers that feed into the top with promotion and relegation.  This way there would be meaningful competition.  This way there would bea defined northern hemisphere structure which would help to bring through the developing nations as well.   Unfortunately too many unions have too much to lose to ever have that kind of logical thinking.  

it's not the Unions who have it all to lose- it would mean the number of English teams would have to be cut and the league would have to be ringfenced. Its a non-runner really.

Why would the league have to be ringfenced?  Also don't see why the amount of English clubs would need to be cut.  They just start further down the league tier

Because if it wasn't, the other unions wouldn't agree to join it. The Welsh maybe. We can't agree on a Cup which is much, much easier to arrange. What makes you think a league would work out?

I accually think 10 team league would mean no Rabo games during IW so that would be good. It means if Ireland, Scotland and Italy could develop their A teams to play during the AIs.

For Ireland 3 A games (in Munster, Ulster & Connacht) would get a sizeable crowd. Also we could push to have midweek games between Rabo teams and visiting teams.

It really depends on what Welsh sides replace them, and how good those teams are. The problem is whether or not the regions continue to exist. I can't see how they can if the RFU and WRU still exist but if the regions were allowed into an Anglo-Welsh league the effects would be massive. The Welsh sides in the Pro12 would be very weak initially and its extremely unlikely there would be any European competition.

All of this would hit the Pro12 in terms of sponsorship money, money from broadcasters and of course no income from Europe. I don't think the Irish provinces would suffer any drop in terms of crowds tbh. We turn out to see our own teams, we don't care much about who we are playing. If Ulster can sell out a home game against Zebre with a 14000 capacity days before kick off, the interest in the less glamorous fixtures in the Pro12 is obviously there. The major threat isn't Irish fans losing interest, its broadcasters and sponsors losing interest as quality plummets elsewhere in the league.

However, I don't think that doomsday scenario is likely to unfold. I think the Welsh will be blocked from joining the English league- I think it's a bit of a red herring to be honest. I don't think the RFU and the WRU want it to happen and its very hard to get a tournament sanctioned when both unions are opposed to it. It seems the regions are serious about it and heading for court. That'll damage everybody involved but why would they get a positive outcome? Will the courts rule that Unions should have no say in the running of the professional game? If they rule that, rugby is fecked anyway. The Pro12 would be the least of our worries. The game itself in Europe would be in danger. It would be 'goodbye Southern Hemisphere, disappearing over the horizon at every level for good'.

But much more likely the courts will tell both parties to go back and sort it out amongst themselves like adults, like they did in 1999 to the English clubs over Europe.

Notch wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:

Notch wrote:

mckay1402 wrote:I think European Rugby is at a bit of cross roads.   What I'd like to see and what I know won't happen is a European league and cup with multiple tiers that feed into the top with promotion and relegation.  This way there would be meaningful competition.  This way there would bea defined northern hemisphere structure which would help to bring through the developing nations as well.   Unfortunately too many unions have too much to lose to ever have that kind of logical thinking.  

it's not the Unions who have it all to lose- it would mean the number of English teams would have to be cut and the league would have to be ringfenced. Its a non-runner really.

Why would the league have to be ringfenced?  Also don't see why the amount of English clubs would need to be cut.  They just start further down the league tier

Because if it wasn't, the other unions wouldn't agree to join it. The Welsh maybe. We can't agree on a Cup which is much, much easier to arrange. What makes you think a league would work out?

yeah fair point. I'm thinking from the standpoint of an idealist who wants a northern hemisphere season. Until the whole season is restructured we'll always be at a disadvantage

Well it looks like the HC is all but dead after Camou stormed out of the meeting after not getting his way.

I must admit I am of the school of thought that says we have to do what is best for British and Irish rugby as a whole.

The French will always be unpredictable but also they are without doubt the biggest threat not just to European rugby but to world rugby. The amount of money they will have at their disposal after signing their new TV deal and with the huge salary caps, which may even get increased should be a wake up call to everyone.

We have seen the Welsh players leaving and the start of a trickle from other countries as well as SH.

They have a limit of 16 foreign players per squad so every team in their league could be coming armed with a wheelbarrow load of cash and no real limits to what they can buy.

We all need each other. It is no good looking after no.1 because at rugby is not a big enough sport like football to do that.

We need a model that works for British and Irish rugby as a whole. I don't know if that is a 2 tier B&I league or maybe separate Celtic and English leagues but with maybe a top 4 from each going in to a B&I champions cup at the end of the season. I don't know.

The Italians are talking of leaving the Rabo which is maybe a good thing from my view. Maybe they would be better tying up with the French. I would still like to see another Scottish side and North Wales enter the Rabo but not sure how realistic that would be right now. In 5 years maybe.

I don't feel the French have ever been that bothered about the HC. We in the Rabo have often been accused of being able to rest player sin our league but the French regularly rest players in the HC because their own league is more important to them.

I'm rambling now. i usually quite like the old politics around rugby but
even I am totally fed up with it. I was due to take my brother and his kids and mine to the Blues game on Friday and in the end I just couldn't be bothered because of all this rubbish.

All I want for Xmas is a really good structure that we can get excited about week in week out and that also gives us the chance to develop British and Irish players.

I think we need to forget about the French right now.

Theres more talks scheduled for boxing day. All of the Unions except for France are supporting a Heineken cup outside of FIRA (funnily enough ran by a frenchman).
The Wanglo league is only a fallback plan to keep the welsh game afloat and fill the gap for the Jeff clubs if they cant get this resolved.

We could always have a HC with the English and without the French

A top 8 league works for me, until the Scots and Italians can plump up an extra team apiece anyways.

Play a 4th AI and forget about European rugby, its not worth the hassle of being held to ransom by fat cat club owners out to line their own pockets.

doctornickolas wrote:

We all need each other. It is no good looking after no.1 because at rugby is not a big enough sport like football to do that.

We need a model that works for British and Irish rugby as a whole.

I was just thinking about this. The powers that be need to start to cop on that we all need each other. There are more differences between us and football than size. There are not too many rugby fans who change allegiance from one club to another because of success/failure. Most of us do not decide which team to support, we support them because they are our local team. We will not stop supporting them because they win or lose the AV, Pro12 or HEC.

Making Irish teams weaker wil not strengthen Welsh teams. Dragons going to the wall makes Ulster weaker because it weakens our league. We all need each other to be able to produce strong teams and develope players.

Now, catch yourselves on and sort it!

When you think of it why not a British and Irish league.

Div 1 - Top 6 in the Pro12 + 6 from the Aviva
Div 2 - Next 4 in the Pro12 + 6 from the Aviva + 2 English Championship
Div 3 - 12 from the English Championship (with some sort of provision for extra Welsh or Scottish teams to enter)

2 up 2 down between the top two leagues and 1 up 1 down between the bottom two.

The Italian's need to be added to the French league - say 3/4 teams in L2 initially

Honestly believe that is the way to go

MrsP wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:

We all need each other. It is no good looking after no.1 because at rugby is not a big enough sport like football to do that.

We need a model that works for British and Irish rugby as a whole.

I was just thinking about this. The powers that be need to start to cop on that we all need each other. There are more differences between us and football than size. There are not too many rugby fans who change allegiance from one club to another because of success/failure. Most of us do not decide which team to support, we support them because they are our local team. We will not stop supporting them because they win or lose the AV, Pro12 or HEC.

Making Irish teams weaker wil not strengthen Welsh teams. Dragons going to the wall makes Ulster weaker because it weakens our league. We all need each other to be able to produce strong teams and develope players.

Now, catch yourselves on and sort it!

This is the ultimate in common sense. But where or where are we going to find the right people in each of the myriad organisations to actually climb out of their parochial rabbit holes and see the big picture? For Rugby it is absolutely true that the rising tide raises all ships. That would be a great Christmas present.

geoff999rugby wrote:When you think of it why not a British and Irish league.

Div 1 - Top 6 in the Pro12 + 6 from the Aviva
Div 2 - Next 4 in the Pro12 + 6 from the Aviva + 2 English Championship
Div 3 - 12 from the English Championship (with some sort of provision for extra Welsh or Scottish teams to enter)

2 up 2 down between the top two leagues and 1 up 1 down between the bottom two.

The Italian's need to be added to the French league - say 3/4 teams in L2 initially

Honestly believe that is the way to go

I think we'd need some sort of separate Irish inter-provincial tournament- couldn't stomach the idea of missing out on the interpros if Connacht or anyone else got relegated.

Still don't think it would quite work tbh. How long before the complaints over Wales extra Autumn test or the Irish Player Management Program started in earnest... simply don't think the PRL are willing to play ball with our Unions anyway.

"The Italians are talking of leaving the Rabo which is maybe a good thing from my view. Maybe they would be better tying up with the French. I would still like to see another Scottish side and North Wales enter the Rabo but not sure how realistic that would be right now. In 5 years maybe. "

The Italians tried for years to be accepted into the French leagues. They were refused entry over and over again. The French don't need the Italians and the clubs in the top 14 are not going to vote to have foreign teams in their league that would increase their chance of relegation. It is never going to happen. All this talk of a British and Irish league is terrible. Why consider any system that would doom pro rugby in another country?

We need to do what others here have said. Come up with a pro rugby system that enables every country to have successful pro rugby.

Right now I'm in favour of having a benign dictator take over rugby in Europe. The FIRA idea might not be such a bad one. Barring that perhaps Loki could sort this out when he takes over the world.

How about we declare a coup d'etat and sort the whole thing out ourselves?

I reckon we could have it all done and dusted and still be home in time for the Carol Service and mince pies!