All Out Cricket's Discussion of the Week - Who's next in line to open for England?

This week on www.alloutcricket.com, Jon Waring looks at the first reserves for an opening berth in England's Test side:

http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/comment/who-would-replace-strauss-and-cook-england-cricket

If Strauss or Cook get an injury, who would you pick?

A good question this, and it does happen to be the only area of this England side that perhaps doesn't have the strength in depth that we would like.

Of those mentioned, I'd possible lean toward Carberry given his additional experience. James Taylor is a very good player, but I don't for one moment think he is ready to open a Test match innings. I'd rather see him slot in at number 6 initially, if he were to be selected. I guess we will see what the plans are for Taylor by where he bats for Notts. If he doesn't open then forget it, no chance of him being a Test opener.

Some of the Surrey boys on here will no doubt mention Jason Roy, who they seem to rate quite highly, but whom I have seen very little of.

In all honesty, I wouldn't feel totally comfortable with any of those names opening, and so can only pray that Messrs Strauss and Cook remain injury free for some time yet! In fact, if such a scenario arose, I'd probably promote Trott to open in the interests of solidarity, move Ian Bell up to number three in the order, Pietersen at four, Morgan at five and James Taylor at six. It'd be a shame to upset the balance and move Trott who has been an outstanding number three (something which we have craved for some time), but I'd be expecting an early loss in every innings if anyone else opened.

Maybe I'm underestimating their abilities, or am just completely pessimistic, but that is my take, anyway.

An interesting dilemma.

Honestly Carberry is probably next in line. Hales could be a wildcard option to open, however like fists said the surrey boys rate roy very highly.

England Test cricket is littered with people moving up the order to open, so pushing Trott from three to two or one would hardly be revolutionary - and might be a good move.
Gooch went from four to one and Bob Woolmer went from EIGHT to one. Amiss also moved up to open. Watson's done OK for Australia and, going back a bit, Ian Redpath became a termendous opener after starting out lower down. Loads more, I guess, that I can't recall off the top of my head.

I've no doubt that Trott would be a success, Sir Fred, my concern lay more with the likes of Taylor being picked to open (unlikely, I know) but given that he is traditionally a middle order batsman I feel he might struggle against the real cream of the crop opening bowlers at Test level.

Trott would always be the safest option, in my view, given the solidarity of his technique combined with his mentality and wealth of experience.

Not Carberry, I fear his chance has already passed him by. Someone like Chris Nash could be a great pick and Nashdog has enjoyed a great couple of seasons.

You also have to consider who is already in the squad, both Trott and Bell could open if required. Trott and Cook opening with Bell at 3 sounds very good.

Taylor is not an opener in my opinion. Maybe Steve Davies could be drafted in if Prior were to be injured at the same time.

I assume that if there was an injury this Winter, Steve Davies would come in to open.

jbd349 wrote:I assume that if there was an injury this Winter, Steve Davies would come in to open.

Good call. I hadn't thought of that one but I think I'm right in saying that he's been opening for Surrey this past year.

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Two more experienced players I rate very highly are Michael Carberry and Chris Nash. Carberry's end to the season after recovering from his blood clot was nothing short of sensational and would make him my pick at the top of the order if anything went wrong. I think Nash is an often underrated player and could still have an England future although I would say this is more likely to be in one-day than four-day cricket.

There is nothing wrong in principle with moving Trott to the top of the order either although in the long run I'm not sure I'd like to see Cook and Trott opening together.

Having said that I think that Strauss will probably go up to at least the next Ashes tour (2013-14)

Nashdog for England!

i rate nash in limited overs cricket, but not sure if he has the temperament for test cricket

I think Trott for me is "next in line" in the sense that if one of the openers were to get injured during a series they'd most likely pick Bopara and move Trott upto open. However if we're more talking long term (as in who comes in when Strauss retires) I don't think that's where England would go, as they value Trott's runs at 3 too highly.

Carberry for me has missed his chance, maybe not his fault, but he didn't do enough when he did get the chance, and England seem to have moved on somewhat. Not the youngest either.

Taylor I like the look of, did a good job when opening for the Lions though it isn't his natural position. If he opens more for his county the next couple of years and does well I think he will be the one.

Hales is my dark horse, part of the setup already and an opening bat by trade.

Roy is rated highly by Surrey but I haven't seen enough of him to judge.

I can assure you us "Surrey Boys" (or at least me anyway) wouldn't dream of suggesting Roy is anywhere near close to opening for England in tests.

Honestly speaking, I can't see him playing test cricket at all (not unless he puts in some serious work). Also, Roy has really been a stop-gap opener for us, as we couldn't fit any proper openers into our side that were good enough.

T20s and ODIs are where his future lies, either as an opener or a no.3 I would say. In these forms I can see him having a real impact.

If Strauss and Cook get injured then whack in Michael Carberry and promote Trott up the order. Get Bell in at 3 and James Taylor in at 6. Simples

I'd be inclined toward Carberry, but as Fists said, it highlights that the opening position is somewhere we don't have much depth.

Taylor shouldn't open, he's a natural in the middle order and that shouldn't be compromised.

Tibor wrote:I can assure you us "Surrey Boys" (or at least me anyway) wouldn't dream of suggesting Roy is anywhere near close to opening for England in tests.

Honestly speaking, I can't see him playing test cricket at all (not unless he puts in some serious work). Also, Roy has really been a stop-gap opener for us, as we couldn't fit any proper openers into our side that were good enough.

T20s and ODIs are where his future lies, either as an opener or a no.3 I would say. In these forms I can see him having a real impact.

I would agree Tibor's comments about Roy's prospects at Test level. Roy shows great promise and has the potential to improve rapidly, but he is way short of test level at the moment. Last season he put in a decent scattering of limited overs innings, including successive centuries, but in the cc he has regularly found ways of getting himself out after playing himself in but before cashing in on his start.

In response to original question I agree most likely options are to play Carberry or to move Trott up and pick Taylor lower down the order. I'd like to see Taylor given an opportunity so I would go for option of moving up Trott.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
Roy shows great promise and has the potential to improve rapidly, but he is way short of test level at the moment. Last season he put in a decent scattering of limited overs innings, including successive centuries, but in the cc he has regularly found ways of getting himself out after playing himself in but before cashing in on his start.

In response to original question I agree most likely options are to play Carberry or to move Trott up and pick Taylor lower down the order. I'd like to see Taylor given an opportunity so I would go for option of moving up Trott.

I haven't seen Roy play apart from a couple of knocks on TV, but he seems to have a solid enough base to feasibly play test cricket in the future. Certainly I dismiss the notion of him being a one-day player and nothing else. The accusation that he "has regularly found ways of getting himself out after playing himself in" could easily have been made to Vaughan and Trescothick during their county careers. We know what happened next in their case.

I think some people are still hankering after the "classic opener" ala Cook (who of course does the job very well), Boycott, Atherton etc. An aggressive player can make a good opener: just ask Smith, Shewag or maybe in a few years time Warner?

On the original thread, I don't think Carberry is international class, and I don't think the England set-up do either. Harsh maybe, but that's my opinion. Clearly someone somewhere has seen Taylor's potential as an opener, and I can see Leicestershire coming under a bit of pressure to move him there in future years, as a possible long term replacement to Strauss.

Another who could do the job is Dawid Malan of middlesex (although he also usually bats 5 for them, he opens in the shorter form and has done so in CC on the odd occasion: he plays straight and plays a good pull shot, IMO he has all the attributes to open the batting).

I think Fists' point about how, at the moment at least, anyone other than Trott filling in for Strauss or Cook would probably see Trott coming out early anyway is a good one, so if one of them got injured during a series it might be better to just put Trott up the order and bring in a middle-order batsman as a stop-gap.

If, for whatever reason, one of Strauss or Cook couldn't tour, then I would probably look at giving someone else a go at the top, and keeping the middle-order the same. Let's say Strauss can't go to UAE, give someone else a shot in the knowledge that they'll probably get 3 tests to get a taste of test cricket and then likely be out the side again, so there's less pressure on the player coming in. Then once that player has had a go at it, he can push on to permanently displace one of Strauss or Cook and get a full-time spot in the team.

It's tricky to tell who that would be. If it was the Pakistan series, I'd go with Carberry as I think he is the most ready at the moment, although I can't see him being much more than a stop-gap until someone else steps up.

Mike, just a quick one, Taylor has moved to Notts ahead of this season, so where he bats in their order will likely give us an idea of his future England role.

Good post, Robbo.

Root looks technically the best ofthe young lot.

In the short term , likely Trott would move up , opening a spot in the middle for Bopara /Taylor - the only way this is happening is injury to Strauss or Cook isn't it?

With an eye to the future it is more probable someone new (not Carberry) will be groomed but you UK residents are better placed to judge who ... must say I quite liked what I saw of Hales in a couple of T20 innings but would need to see more of him to judge whether he could move up to the long game at the top level - I see mfc likes him...

Mike Selig wrote:I haven't seen Roy play apart from a couple of knocks on TV, but he seems to have a solid enough base to feasibly play test cricket in the future. Certainly I dismiss the notion of him being a one-day player and nothing else. The accusation that he "has regularly found ways of getting himself out after playing himself in" could easily have been made to Vaughan and Trescothick during their county careers. We know what happened next in their case.

Mike - I certainly don't rule out Roy showing in future that he is fitted for test cricket. It's just that he has a considerable way to go. Last season in the cc Div 2 he managed one century and one half century in 22 innings, scoring 623 runs at an average of 29.66. So there's a fair bit of work needed on the consistency front and it would be a mighty big step up at the moment. But one of the advantages of the England set up is that it does give players with identified potential a chance to show what they can do at a representative level...

When was Carberry last involved with the England set up/I know he was being sniffed up as a plan B when Cook Poopie the bed, but never really did enough to suggest he would be of much use. He didnt go with the Lions or anything did he? That suggests to me that hes been forgotten about. Taylor they love, but its a big ask to bring him in as a test opener when he hasnt really played their at county level to my knowledge.
Id actually see a guy like Hales whos recently been tried out by England rather than forgotten as s real possibility.

Most likely I think they would take a reserve opener if one of the existing ones died pre tour but use Trott and stick Bell at 3 and bring in Ravi.

Mike - I'm addressing this post to you as the Corporal well knows my views on Jason Roy He is without doubt the most tremendous talent. I have been boring the boys on the Surrey board (including old 606) senseless since first seeing him play a seconds game well over eighteen months ago.

I will be very surprised and even more disappointed if he doesn't play all forms of the international game for England. He is currently best suited by far to playing for England in T20 and ODIs than Tests. He is much, much better and more talented than a ''hit it and hope merchant'' but does need to cut out occasional rashness to really blossom in the County Championship and then progress to five day matches. I certainly have the belief he can do it but he's not ready yet. He wasn't helped last season by being moved too often up and down the order.

It will be very interesting to see how he does for the England Lions this winter. A good tour and he could deservedly be playing at the full level in limited overs matches next season.

As an extra plus, he is a tremendous fielder with an extremely safe pair of hands and the ability to run opponents out with a direct throw from the boundary (as witnessed).

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:When was Carberry last involved with the England set up/I know he was being sniffed up as a plan B when Cook Poopie the bed, but never really did enough to suggest he would be of much use. He didnt go with the Lions or anything did he? That suggests to me that hes been forgotten about. Taylor they love, but its a big ask to bring him in as a test opener when he hasnt really played their at county level to my knowledge.
Id actually see a guy like Hales whos recently been tried out by England rather than forgotten as s real possibility.

Most likely I think they would take a reserve opener if one of the existing ones died pre tour but use Trott and stick Bell at 3 and bring in Ravi.

I don't think England have forgotten about him as such. He was called up to the 09-10 South African tour as cover but didn't play and then opened with Cook in the 1st Test in Bangladesh whilst Strauss was resting. He didn't do badly as such but the need for a second spinner meant he was left out and Trott went up to open for the 2nd Test. He was prevented from going to Australia with England Lions by a blood clot on his lungs and was out of action until about August. He's not in the Lions squad to Bangladesh but I guess that is more because it seems to have been picked as 'young players' team rather than a 'reserves' team - other older candidates such as James Tredwell, Chris Nash and Jimmy Adams.

Corporalhumblebucket wrote:
Mike - I certainly don't rule out Roy showing in future that he is fitted for test cricket. It's just that he has a considerable way to go. Last season in the cc Div 2 he managed one century and one half century in 22 innings, scoring 623 runs at an average of 29.66. So there's a fair bit of work needed on the consistency front and it would be a mighty big step up at the moment. But one of the advantages of the England set up is that it does give players with identified potential a chance to show what they can do at a representative level...

Very similar to Vaughan and Trescothick's record when they were picked for England then? Or indeed Morgan's current first class record?

I don't place that much on first class records TBH, the intensity is nothing like what you see in a test match. If someone's got "it" (and I would suggest on the whole "it" is far more mental than technical) then they've got it, even if they get bored and get themselves out too often at a lower standard. This is clearly how the England set-up see things as well.

This is not to say we should ignore county records altogether (if someone keeps getting out for low scores there is clearly a problem), but I don't think someone has to be successful in the CC to be successful at test level.

Fists, thanks, I think I did know that Taylor had swapped counties, but it had slipped my mind. Anyway my point about him remains.

I bow to guilford's views that Roy isn't ready yet, and accept them. To be fair, Strauss has at least another 2 years left, maybe more (remember S. Waugh retired at 39 and Strauss is only playing tests and fields mostly in the slips), so he doesn't need to be.

England clearly are keen to give their potential test players a run in the one-day side first (presumably to see whether they can "cut it" at international level), so I have no doubt that is the way they will go with whoever they see as Strauss's replacement. In a way, this partly explains why England seem to be so hopeless at the 50 over stuff.

England captain Andrew Strauss tells the BBC that playing until the Ashes series in 2013-14 is a "realistic goal".

Shelsey93 wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:When was Carberry last involved with the England set up/I know he was being sniffed up as a plan B when Cook Poopie the bed, but never really did enough to suggest he would be of much use. He didnt go with the Lions or anything did he? That suggests to me that hes been forgotten about. Taylor they love, but its a big ask to bring him in as a test opener when he hasnt really played their at county level to my knowledge.
Id actually see a guy like Hales whos recently been tried out by England rather than forgotten as s real possibility.

Most likely I think they would take a reserve opener if one of the existing ones died pre tour but use Trott and stick Bell at 3 and bring in Ravi.

I don't think England have forgotten about him as such. He was called up to the 09-10 South African tour as cover but didn't play and then opened with Cook in the 1st Test in Bangladesh whilst Strauss was resting. He didn't do badly as such but the need for a second spinner meant he was left out and Trott went up to open for the 2nd Test. He was prevented from going to Australia with England Lions by a blood clot on his lungs and was out of action until about August. He's not in the Lions squad to Bangladesh but I guess that is more because it seems to have been picked as 'young players' team rather than a 'reserves' team - other older candidates such as James Tredwell, Chris Nash and Jimmy Adams.

Shelsey... I didnt realise thats why he missed the Lions tour, fair enough. But its still a fair while since he was given his " well who else is there but lets face it no matter how badly he plays Cook is our first choice" reserve role with no sign of him being in the picture.