All Out Cricket's Discussion Of The Week - What do the Windies need to do to challenge England?

by All Out Cricket Tue May 15, 2012 5:31 am

This week on www.alloutcricket.com Rohan Kallicharan lauds the West Indies pace attack.

http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/comment/england-west-indies-test-series-preview

But have the tourists got enough firepower to trouble England this summer?

by Stella Tue May 15, 2012 5:53 am

Pray for sun. This weather will not suit them.

Their bowling looks good to me but we do have a good top 5 to counter that. We should beat them with our bowlers in our own conditions and the only way the West Indies may beat us is if they can grind out some scores of 400 plus
A lot will depend on how well Chanderpaul does.

by **Fists of Fury** Tue May 15, 2012 5:54 am

They'll be blown away, I reckon. They struggled big style against out third string bowlers, they can expect no better fare from Jimmy Anderson.

Their bowlers are ok, but the sort of bowlers that could go around the park against the likes of Cook and Pietersen.

It is a monumental task for the Windies, and one I can see them losing 3-0 unless weather intervenes.

by Guest Tue May 15, 2012 6:10 am

Bat well. I think they have the bowlers to restrict England's scoring, but it is whether they have the discipline in batting. Take the first Test aganst Australia when they had a small lead in the first innings and then in the 2nd innings will bowled out for 148. I think they need to bat long.

by packofwolves Tue May 15, 2012 7:21 am

Their batting really has to come off to get close to England in this series. They will need to show an as yet unwitnessed ability against the swinging ball. I'm just not convinced that their batters (other than Chanders and perhaps Bravo) have the patience to bat well in England.

I think their pace attack is being over praised too. They are decent bowlers in themselves, but not suited to English conditions. Edwards and Sammy are skidders. Rampaul lacks pace and consistency whilst Roach is liable to go for runs.

by Guest Tue May 15, 2012 7:25 am

If Edwards can bowl a disciplined length, he could take a bag of wickets. He is so wayward though. I remember when in the series in 2009 when he got carried away with trying to kill Anderson at the crease and ended up bowling much better to him than the top order batsmen. I hope Bishoo gets a look in.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue May 15, 2012 7:29 am

basically, they need to bat a lot better than they have done for some time now. Their bowling attack is OK,and has the firepower to take 20 wickets in England, but their batting is incredibly fragile, and over-reliant on Chanderpaul who, fine player though he is, won't take the game away from the opposition.

by gboycottnut Tue May 15, 2012 9:31 am

"What do the Windies need to do to challenge England?"

Send out onto the field this deadly West Indies team of :-

1) Faoud Bacchus
2) Emerson Trotman
3) Lawrence Rowe (Captain)
4) Alvin Kallicharran
5) Everton Mattis
6) Collis King
7) David Murray
8) Franklyn Stephenson
9) Ezra Moseley
10) Sylvester Clarke
11) Colin Croft

by Stella Tue May 15, 2012 9:35 am

Is that the rebel team, Boycs?

by gboycottnut Tue May 15, 2012 9:56 am

Stella wrote:Is that the rebel team, Boycs?

Yes!

by Duty281 Tue May 15, 2012 10:52 am

Absolutely no way that the Windies will challenge England. I expect them to be blown away for 2 digit scores on at least one occasion. 3-0 England and two innings victories will be probable. Sorry WI.

I've had a look at the weather for London and Monday is the only day that looks dodgy which shouldn't be a worry as the Test Match will be finished by then.

by Mike Selig Tue May 15, 2012 11:14 am

packofwolves wrote:Rampaul lacks pace

Whilst I agree with a lot of what's being said, this is clearly nonsense, Rampaul bowls mid-to-high 80s, same as say Anderson.

I think their bowling attack is fairly well balanced actually: Roach for pace and aggression, Sammy to play a holding role and Rampaul could be a dangerman in English conditions (he gets plenty of swing), although I agree he can be inconsistent. Personally I wouldn't even pick Edwards. Their attack would also look a lot better if the other Bravo was playing at 6. They may go for 4 seamers and rely on Deonarine for "spin".

Having said that there are some issues: whether Sammy can play a holding role in conditions where the ball comes onto the bat a bit more remains to be seen (his main attribute is accuracy and lack of pace - unless he gets movement England could get after him). I also remain firmly of the opinion that Shillingford is average, and was flattered by tailor-made wickets and astonishingly hesitating Australian batting; Pietersen and Bell should by rights tuck into him with gusto.

Of course the main problem for the West Indies is their batting: Barath can't buy a score, Edwards may struggle against swing, Powell will (although he is a class player in the making). Deonarine isn't really test class. This leaves Chanderpaul and Bravo, and you would expect Swann to get one of those fairly cheaply, so...

West Indies may well bowl England out cheaply once or even twice. Unless they both happen in the same test, I can't see their batting getting nearly enough runs to win.

by gboycottnut Tue May 15, 2012 11:34 am

West Indies should seriously consider playing that spin bowler Mathurin who caused England no end of problems when England got sensationally bowled out for under 100 in the final ODI last summer.

by Shelsey93 Tue May 15, 2012 11:36 am

gboycottnut wrote:West Indies should seriously consider playing that spin bowler Mathurin who caused England no end of problems when England got sensationally bowled out for under 100 in the final ODI last summer.

I thought the wickets flattered him frankly. He looked very, very average. Narine could be considered, but if he wants to put the IPL buck first he can get stuffed from the Test team.

by Guest Tue May 15, 2012 11:57 am

Mike Selig wrote:
packofwolves wrote:Rampaul lacks pace

Whilst I agree with a lot of what's being said, this is clearly nonsense, Rampaul bowls mid-to-high 80s, same as say Anderson.

I think their bowling attack is fairly well balanced actually: Roach for pace and aggression, Sammy to play a holding role and Rampaul could be a dangerman in English conditions (he gets plenty of swing), although I agree he can be inconsistent. Personally I wouldn't even pick Edwards. Their attack would also look a lot better if the other Bravo was playing at 6. They may go for 4 seamers and rely on Deonarine for "spin".

Having said that there are some issues: whether Sammy can play a holding role in conditions where the ball comes onto the bat a bit more remains to be seen (his main attribute is accuracy and lack of pace - unless he gets movement England could get after him). I also remain firmly of the opinion that Shillingford is average, and was flattered by tailor-made wickets and astonishingly hesitating Australian batting; Pietersen and Bell should by rights tuck into him with gusto.

Of course the main problem for the West Indies is their batting: Barath can't buy a score, Edwards may struggle against swing, Powell will (although he is a class player in the making). Deonarine isn't really test class. This leaves Chanderpaul and Bravo, and you would expect Swann to get one of those fairly cheaply, so...

West Indies may well bowl England out cheaply once or even twice. Unless they both happen in the same test, I can't see their batting getting nearly enough runs to win.

Rampaul for a big fella can certainly get pace. He was getting mid to high 80's against the Aussies. Yes the surface is different and the pitches over here may take a little edge off his bowling, as Mike stated he can hit the 80's on a regular basis.

Bravo may find some form here. Chanderpaul was literally doing what Hussey was doing against England in 2010/11. Almost like the whole innings will be pinned on what Chanderpaul can do with the bat.

The Windies batting wise are slightly out of nick.

by guildfordbat Tue May 15, 2012 12:54 pm

The Windies seem to have more team spirit than in recent years - credit Sammy somewhat for that. They also put up more of a fight and did better against the Aussies recently than I expected.

I therefore don't think they'll lie down and allow England to roll them over as easily as some seem to expect.

However, and this might be significant, how many of these Windies would get into the England team? Chanderpaul probably, others probably not at all. As well as good collective team attitude, seven or eight of the Windies team are therefore going to need to perform to the maximum of their individual ability each Test. Lacking that, they need to hope for rain.

by VTR Tue May 15, 2012 1:22 pm

What have they got to do? Show a lot more application and skill than we've seen from them for about the last ten years. Can't see it happening personally, they are a very poor side despite doing a bit better recently. They're still not winning so haven't really improved in my opinion.

by msp83 Wed May 16, 2012 11:06 am

Well, its just common sense to say a clear advantage England. For any side, its dificult to put one across the English in their own home conditions, particularly if the ball starts swinging for Jimmy A. And we all know the problems in the WI top order, in fact the entire batting unit of course other than Shiv.
Said that, we also have to consider 2 other factors, the relatively poor winter for England battig unit, and the decent nature of the WI bowling unit.
The English batting unit had a collective bout of lack of form during much of the winter, and Cook, Strauss, Pietersen, Bell, all struggled, although KP and Cook got back some of their touch towards the end of the winter. Cook has had his fair share of trouble in early summer swing conditions in England. Strauss, well, he hasn't been in the best of touch in recent months either. If these 2 find some form at the top and deny early success to the WI bowlers, then it will be very dificult for WI then.
West Indies have got a decent owling unit with Kemar Roach and Ravi Rampaul in good form to be backed up by the erratic but tallented Fidel Edwards who has some decent experience. The WI captain who takls more than performs, had ones bowled a matching changing spel in England!. Shane Shillingford is a more than average spinner, although I have my doubts whether he's actually the world beater that he seemed like against Australia. In fact I evn doubt whether he'll get a chance at all in the first game.

by msp83 Wed May 16, 2012 11:14 am

And for the WI to do well, they need to select 11 players on the basis of their ability. 11 best players have to be in there. No player should make it to the side, on their ability to talk and talk alone. Talking a fine game is one thing, bringing out a quality game on the field is different.
The West Indies captain has to do way better than 783 runs and 64 wickets from 24 test matches to rightfully make the side as the side's prime all-rounder.
All these talk of WI howing fighting qualities only under his leadership in recent is absolute nonsense.
When WI went to Australia and put up a good showing, who was the captain and the best batter in the series? Who led them to their last series win against England? Who led them in their last ODI series win against England? Who led them in their last test win over South Africa?
How many of these games did Darren Sammy play?

by gboycottnut Wed May 16, 2012 11:16 am

One of the West Indies main problems is that their lineup is made less effective by the inclusion of Darren Sammy. Yes he may be a good captain who can get the whole team to gel together and play for him, but apart from that his batting and his bowling skills alone aren't good enough to succeed consistently at a test match level. Sammy's inclusion in the West Indies team in many ways reminds me a lot of Mike Brearley's inclusion in the England team in the 1981 ashes series.

by **Fists of Fury** Wed May 16, 2012 11:20 am

The same could be said of Strauss of late, gboycott.

by msp83 Wed May 16, 2012 11:39 am

But under Brearley, England won a lot of matches, and its generally agreed that he was a master strategist. Sammy hasn't really shown much in that regard, in fact, he seemed less than average like he does with the ball and the bat in that regard also.
The WI players mostly responded very well to Chris Gayle's leadership, and he made it to the side as a quality opening batsman!, ant not as some Motivational Guru!.

by gboycottnut Wed May 16, 2012 12:08 pm

msp83 wrote:But under Brearley, England won a lot of matches, and its generally agreed that he was a master strategist. Sammy hasn't really shown much in that regard, in fact, he seemed less than average like he does with the ball and the bat in that regard also.
The WI players mostly responded very well to Chris Gayle's leadership, and he made it to the side as a quality opening batsman!, ant not as some Motivational Guru!.

But it Brearley won a lot of his matches as England captain with a set of world class players under his command such as Geoff Boycott, Peter Willey, Geoff Miller, John Emburey. There was also a situation in which England under Brearley's command played a couple of Ashes test matches in 1977 with 2 matchwinning all-rounders in the same team in the shape of Tony Greig a young and athletic Ian Botham.

by msp83 Wed May 16, 2012 12:36 pm

Brearley could get the best out of his best plaers, and not like Sammy who's major contribution has been ousting Chris Gayle, one of the better batters the West Indies have produced in recnt times. And of course he prevents the inclusion of one of their better bowlers as well.
Otherwise, England under Brearley could afford him in the side, firstly because he was a fine man manager, who could keep his side together, and make the best out of his star players with good tactics, and England had a lot of quality players in their side.
Neither applys for Sammy, and its just a myth that he has brought about a radical transformation in the approach, output, and attitude of the side.

by gboycottnut Wed May 16, 2012 12:51 pm

msp83 wrote:Brearley could get the best out of his best plaers, and not like Sammy who's major contribution has been ousting Chris Gayle, one of the better batters the West Indies have produced in recnt times. And of course he prevents the inclusion of one of their better bowlers as well.
Otherwise, England under Brearley could afford him in the side, firstly because he was a fine man manager, who could keep his side together, and make the best out of his star players with good tactics, and England had a lot of quality players in their side.
Neither applys for Sammy, and its just a myth that he has brought about a radical transformation in the approach, output, and attitude of the side.

I don't agree that Sammy was primarily responsible for getting and keeping Chris Gayle out of the WI team. Chris Gayle has only himself to blame for putting his own interests of making more money from playing in the lucrative IPL over playing for the WI national team.

by msp83 Wed May 16, 2012 1:24 pm

gboycottnut wrote:
msp83 wrote:Brearley could get the best out of his best plaers, and not like Sammy who's major contribution has been ousting Chris Gayle, one of the better batters the West Indies have produced in recnt times. And of course he prevents the inclusion of one of their better bowlers as well.
Otherwise, England under Brearley could afford him in the side, firstly because he was a fine man manager, who could keep his side together, and make the best out of his star players with good tactics, and England had a lot of quality players in their side.
Neither applys for Sammy, and its just a myth that he has brought about a radical transformation in the approach, output, and attitude of the side.

I don't agree that Sammy was primarily responsible for getting and keeping Chris Gayle out of the WI team. Chris Gayle has only himself to blame for putting his own interests of making more money from playing in the lucrative IPL over playing for the WI national team.

Not too sure of that, Gayle of course didn't sign the contract offered by the WICB, but neither did Pollard and Bravo. They both were picked for the Wet Indies time and again. Marlon Samuels, who signed a contract, was allowed to miss the Australia test series to play in the IPL. Sunil Narine iss doing the same.
Gayle was injured after the WC, after he recovered, the WICB made no atempt to contact him, and he, Sarwan, and CHANDERPAUL!, were dropped for the early part of the Pakistan series without any explanation whatsoever. It was under these circumstances that Gayle went joined the IPL. And even after the IPL, as we all know, he wasn't being picked regularly with the idiots in the WICB and the talkers in the WI team management.

by ShankyCricket Wed May 16, 2012 1:29 pm

Sammy is a joke.

by msp83 Wed May 16, 2012 1:56 pm

The people who regard him 'Captain Superb' are the greater jokers Shanky!.

by ShankyCricket Wed May 16, 2012 2:21 pm

I have heard some people call him a quality test bowler Laugh

by msp83 Wed May 16, 2012 2:50 pm

There are people who believe Chris Maartin is the greatest batsman to have walked the earth!!!.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed May 16, 2012 3:00 pm

actually Sammy's test stats aren't too shabby. He's averageing just under 20 with the bat (not too bad for a n°8), and just over 30 with the ball (again pretty reasonable). He also takes more than his fair share of catches. The problem is that he's not really a great tactician on the field (see the first test defeat against Aus for example), and when things go wrong tends to hide himself a bit IMO. The other problem is IMO he shouldn't be a guaranteed starter (should be battling it out with Edwards and Rampaul) which makes him a poor choice as captain.

As for the whole Gayle thing, I think I've made my view on this clear: if you want to play for your country you need to show you care about it, I'm not convinced Gayle has always shown that sort of commitment in the past.

The trouble is, if not Sammy, who do you make captain? Chanderpaul is the only batsman with experience, and I'm not sure burdening him with the captaincy on top of being WI's only decent batsman is a good move (didn't work well before anyway). That leaves Baugh (not convinced he should be in the side), or a bowler, of whom Roach is probably the only sure pick at the moment. Does Roach strike you as captain material?

by msp83 Wed May 16, 2012 3:13 pm

MFC, Kirk Edwards could be a better choice, anyways better than Sammy.
And the experienced cricket follower that you are, I don't need to tell you stats do not tell you everything.
And, please tell me, what has made you think Gayle doesn't really care about WI cricket at all?

by ShankyCricket Wed May 16, 2012 3:13 pm

If Sammy is that good a bowler then why wasnt he in the side before he became the captain? He became the captain in Nov 2010 in SL. Before that series the last series that WI had played was against SA at home in July 2010. For that series against SA, even Nelon Pascal and Brendon Bess were preferred to Sammy as bowlers.
And for what its worth let me tell you all that his record as a Test bowler was much better before he became the captain. So if he wasnt considered good enough to get into the side on the strength of his bowling at that time, then how he is suddenly good enough now?
I am intrigued.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed May 16, 2012 4:04 pm

msp

Kirk Edwards has played 7 tests though, is that really enough to make him captain? I see from his cricinfo bio that he was vice-captain of the U19s, has he had any captaincy experience other than that? Could be a decent option though.

Stats don't tell you the whole story, but they do tell you that Sammy is a pretty decent bowler at test level (and indeed at T20 level), and a decent n°8 bat. The problem is he's not unarguably in the top 4 bowlers of the WI (in fact I don't think he is). But as I was saying, who in the WI can you say is a sure starter in the test XI? Edwards, Chanderpaul, Roach, maybe Bravo? None of those four strike me as captaincy material (though Sammy doesn't either). I have no doubt his appointment was a political one (at a time where the board was doing their best to kill off cricket in the WI). However, I also think he's sometimes unfairly criticised: he's a good cricketer who's done a pretty good job for his country when called upon. Also, for all the criticism of his captaincy, there's a better sense of unity about this WI side now (admittedly could be because it's filled with "yes men").

As for Gayle, his attitude at the last World Cup I found absolutely dreadful. I get this "laid back" attitude thing, but you just got the feeling he was playing for himself and didn't care about the rest of the team. He wasn't well managed (I think he's one of those - a bit like KP - who needs to feel he's important, which he didn't, and resented that), but I still didn't like it.

by ShankyCricket Wed May 16, 2012 4:18 pm

Despite this so called attitude, Gayle still had an OK World Cup. Sammy was dreadful in the WC with the ball. Yet he was retained.

Also apart from his bowling and batting you have to remember that Sammy is a Dreadful fielder.

by Mad for Chelsea Wed May 16, 2012 4:36 pm

WI didn't look like a happy squad at the WC, for that Gayle is IMO one of the factors. When your captain looks like he'd rather be somewhere else, it must rub off on the rest of the team (I've played in similar teams, and it's quite demoralising).

Sammy is a poor slip fielder, no denying that. He shouldn't really be fielding there IMO.

by ShankyCricket Wed May 16, 2012 5:00 pm

Gayle was not the captain at the WC.

by Mike Selig Thu May 17, 2012 1:23 am

Msp and guilford make very valid points: I think a few people are getting a bit ahead of themselves predicting a rout. I still think it will be 3-0 but I also think England will have at least one collapse due to the fragile nature of their batting and some good West Indies bowling.

I full-heartedly support Msp's assertion about Shillingford.

I have no wish to go over the Chris Gayle ground: I have made my views on the matter quite clear, if you walk off smiling when you get out you for a slog-fueled 40odd chasing a low total you don't deserve to play for your country.

by msp83 Thu May 17, 2012 11:33 am

Mike, how many times has Sammy brainlessly slogged out in a critical situation and handed the advantage back to the opposition in his relatively short career so far? I don't think its relevant whether he smiled or not while walking back. But as far as Gayle is concerned, he played many a stroke filled knocks that were often match winning, at least at the ODI level.
In the last test series that Gayle payed, his first under Sammy's leadership, he started with just a small matter of an innings of 333!. Does suggest negative attitude? Not for me!.
Again, Gayle played the WC not at 100 %, he was picked because he is by a long long way, their best ODI battsman, in fact all-rounder, and he was willing to play through the discomfort. Doesn't really suggest much of an attitude problem.
And he has given up his county contract now to play for the WI, we all know what pays better!. Does it suggest terrible attitude?
And Gayle was not the only senior player who had things to say about the poor management of players by the team management and the WICB. Chanderpaul did, and had his illtreatment during the early part of the Pakistan series continued, all these talk of 'Captain Superb' bringing about a great turn around would have been put in its place for everyone to see.
A good captain and a coach should be able to make best use of their best tallents for the greter good of the side. If you are not able to do that, then you are just not good enough to do the job. Both the WI captain and coach are terrible failures in this regard.

by msp83 Thu May 17, 2012 11:38 am

MFC, Sammy had played just about 10 inconsistent test matches over 3 years before he was appointed captain, and handed an automatic place in the side, that he would never have made otherwise.
Kirk Edwards, at least has so far justified his place in the side, and so there is a greater sense of justice if he's appointed captain.
In an ideal situation, Gayle still is the better choice, but with all those bagages, I think now that will be very dificult.

by Mike Selig Mon May 21, 2012 9:43 am

msp83 wrote:Mike, how many times has Sammy brainlessly slogged out in a critical situation and handed the advantage back to the opposition in his relatively short career so far?

Loads of times. Unlike Gayle, Sammy is not meant to be one of West Indies best batsmen.

msp83 wrote:I don't think its relevant whether he smiled or not while walking back.

I do.

msp83 wrote:But as far as Gayle is concerned, he played many a stroke filled knocks that were often match winning, at least at the ODI level.

Rubbish. He has played loads of cameos.

msp83 wrote:
Again, Gayle played the WC not at 100 %, he was picked because he is by a long long way, their best ODI battsman, in fact all-rounder, and he was willing to play through the discomfort. Doesn't really suggest much of an attitude problem.

The way he played suggests exactly that.

msp83 wrote:And he has given up his county contract now to play for the WI, we all know what pays better!. Does it suggest terrible attitude?

What of the IPL contract? Didn't give that up to play in the tests did he....

msp83 wrote:And Gayle was not the only senior player who had things to say about the poor management of players by the team management and the WICB.

I've been over this before. Poor management doesn't excuse poor behaviour by the players, or even mitigate it.

msp83 wrote: A good captain and a coach should be able to make best use of their best tallents for the greter good of the side. If you are not able to do that, then you are just not good enough to do the job. Both the WI captain and coach are terrible failures in this regard.

A good coach picks the best TEAM for the job. Some players are simply not worth the bother. West Indies are right not a better TEAM than they were when Gayle was last playing for them. End of.

by ShankyCricket Mon May 21, 2012 3:36 pm

I agree with Mike mostly but sorry thats just absolute nonsense.
FFS Gayle went to the IPL last year because he wasnt picked by the West Indies. As for him giving up his IPL contract this year to play tests, why would he do so if he is not even being considered?

by Liam Mon May 21, 2012 3:43 pm

The WI players are so badly paid they have no option to go play IPL. Wouldn't you for 10 games at almost $1m?

He fell out with the board, who seem not able to control their players and get match winning players back on side in order to move forward. They didn't want Gayle so he had every right to go play IPL. He has made himself available now and given up a county contract with Somerset, that shows commitment to the national side.

by Shelsey93 Mon May 21, 2012 4:24 pm

martyr_94 wrote:The WI players are so badly paid they have no option to go play IPL. Wouldn't you for 10 games at almost $1m?

He fell out with the board, who seem not able to control their players and get match winning players back on side in order to move forward. They didn't want Gayle so he had every right to go play IPL. He has made himself available now and given up a county contract with Somerset, that shows commitment to the national side.

I disagree. See my response in the 1st Test thread.

by Mike Selig Mon May 21, 2012 4:33 pm

martyr_94 wrote:Wouldn't you for 10 games at almost $1m?

I wouldn't swap playing for my country for any kind of money.

martyr_94 wrote:He has made himself available now and given up a county contract with Somerset, that shows commitment to the national side.

It show commitment to playing one-day cricket and T20 ahead of county cricket. Buying out his IPL contract to also make himself available for the test matches might have changed my mind.

Anyway I don't think this debate will go anywhere to be honest, I think it's one where there are really two completely contrasting views and everyone who holds one thinks they are absolutely right and the others absolutely wrong (as can be seen by my use of the word "rubbish" and Shanky's subsequent "nonsense"). I'm not sure there's much to be gained by carrying on trading blows.

by Liam Mon May 21, 2012 4:41 pm

Look don't get me wrong, Test cricket for your country is the ultimate test of you as a cricketer, I'm just saying looking at some of the poverty in the WI and how poorly paid they are, you have to look at the bigger picture. I'm sure many are trying to ensure their long term financial security and then will go back and play Test cricket.

I'm not a big fan of the IPL myself, never really got into it, bit too showy for my liking, but you have to look at the bigger picture, in these tough economic times, your family and yourself must come first, and these players see that they can get a big pay day and play the game they love. But obviously, I would love if every test side could put out their full sides, that's why I was disappointed that the test championship was abandoned.

by msp83 Tue May 22, 2012 4:03 am

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:Mike, how many times has Sammy brainlessly slogged out in a critical situation and handed the advantage back to the opposition in his relatively short career so far?

Loads of times. Unlike Gayle, Sammy is not meant to be one of West Indies best batsmen.
OK, then he can slog mindlessly because he has to be an automatic pick good for nothing other than captaining and saying yes to the WICB? Not expected to play the situations, not expected to score runs, not expected to pick up wickets? Every run he scores, every wicket he takes, every catch he takes, has to be considered a bonus?? Sorry Mike!.

msp83 wrote:I don't think its relevant whether he smiled or not while walking back.
I do.
Please enjoy it the next time when he flashes at a head high short and wide ball and gets out after getting set and throw away the advantage for the side. Of course he'll admit to the press, and do the very same thing next math, but that shouldn't matter so long as he doesn't smile!. Strange and sensless I have to say!.
msp83 wrote:But as far as Gayle is concerned, he played many a stroke filled knocks that were often match winning, at least at the ODI level.
Rubbish. He has played loads of cameos.

For that your understanding of a cameo has to be very different from a commonsensical one, as Gayle averages over 39 in ODI cricket, and in 228 matches, have scored 19 hundreds including 2 scores above 150. Haven't really watched him much, have you?
msp83 wrote:
Again, Gayle played the WC not at 100 %, he was picked because he is by a long long way, their best ODI battsman, in fact all-rounder, and he was willing to play through the discomfort. Doesn't really suggest much of an attitude problem.
The way he played suggests exactly that.
What was that particular way?
msp83 wrote:And he has given up his county contract now to play for the WI, we all know what pays better!. Does it suggest terrible attitude?
What of the IPL contract? Didn't give that up to play in the tests did he....
Firstly, the dispute got resolved as the IPL was progressing, and Gayle therefore didn't give it up. Besides, RCB came to his rescue when the powers that in the West Indies cricket left him out in the cold humiliated and ignored. 2nd, Players like Marlon Samuels were allowed to pick and choose when and what to play for West Indies, and they of course are terrific team players with great commitmet to WI cricket and has the right attitude.

msp83 wrote:And Gayle was not the only senior player who had things to say about the poor management of players by the team management and the WICB.
I've been over this before. Poor management doesn't excuse poor behaviour by the players, or even mitigate it.

Poor management would certainly have an impact on the performance of the side as well as player v board relations. May be you can read up a bit about the Guru Greg era in Indian cricket. or the Pre-Fleture era in English cricket.
msp83 wrote: A good captain and a coach should be able to make best use of their best tallents for the greter good of the side. If you are not able to do that, then you are just not good enough to do the job. Both the WI captain and coach are terrible failures in this regard.
A good coach picks the best TEAM for the job. Some players are simply not worth the bother. West Indies are right not a better TEAM than they were when Gayle was last playing for them. End of.

Nonsense again, the last series WI played with Gayle in it was the Lanka test series, and they didn't disgrace themselves there, a very dificult place to tour even without Murali, ask England!.

by ShankyCricket Tue May 22, 2012 5:52 am

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:I don't think its relevant whether he smiled or not while walking back.
I do.

No, smiling doesnt win you test matches as far as I know.

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:But as far as Gayle is concerned, he played many a stroke filled knocks that were often match winning, at least at the ODI level.
Rubbish. He has played loads of cameos.

What?? Are you saying he has not played match winning knocks for WI and has only played cameos?

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:
Again, Gayle played the WC not at 100 %, he was picked because he is by a long long way, their best ODI battsman, in fact all-rounder, and he was willing to play through the discomfort. Doesn't really suggest much of an attitude problem.
The way he played suggests exactly that.

And still he had a better World Cup than most of the other Windies players including the great Sammy.

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:And he has given up his county contract now to play for the WI, we all know what pays better!. Does it suggest terrible attitude?
What of the IPL contract? Didn't give that up to play in the tests did he....

It must be remembered that Gayle took up the IPL contract last year only after the Windies inexplicably dropped him. He has always maintained that he is available for the Windies throughout the last year but the selectors havent picked him so why do you expect him to give up his IPL contract when there is no guarantee of him getting picked? And there is still no guarantee that he will be picked in the WI ODI and T20 squads yet he has took the risk of dishonouring his Somerset contract.

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote:And Gayle was not the only senior player who had things to say about the poor management of players by the team management and the WICB.
I've been over this before. Poor management doesn't excuse poor behaviour by the players, or even mitigate it.

What poor behaviour? Going to the IPL because your country isnt picking you? So what is he supposed to do? Sit at home and cry like a little baby?

Mike Selig wrote:
msp83 wrote: A good captain and a coach should be able to make best use of their best tallents for the greter good of the side. If you are not able to do that, then you are just not good enough to do the job. Both the WI captain and coach are terrible failures in this regard.
A good coach picks the best TEAM for the job. Some players are simply not worth the bother. West Indies are right not a better TEAM than they were when Gayle was last playing for them. End of.

On what basis are WI a better team now?
Under Gayle, they beat England at home and also won a Test in South Africa. Under Sammy, WI have only beaten Bangladesh in a Test match.

by VTR Tue May 22, 2012 6:37 am

It doesn't matter now if Gayle plays as Tino "mind the windows" Best has been called up, watch out England!

by VTR Tue May 22, 2012 6:45 am

Mike Selig wrote:
martyr_94 wrote:Wouldn't you for 10 games at almost $1m?
I wouldn't swap playing for my country for any kind of money

Maybe this is part of the problem. West Indies isn't a country but a collection of them. Unity is often cited as a problem (and given as a reason for Clive Lloyd's greatness) with West Indies cricket. Perhaps Gayle doesn't have much affinity to the West Indies team?

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