Luke Fitzgerald and Keith Earls.

So with Luke back to his best, and showing just why he was so highly rated when he first came on the scene, he has to be one of the first names on both Leinster and Ireland's team sheet. The question is, where does he play? He has played everywhere from 11-15, and has stated himself his favourite position would be 15. However, he did not do well there during the 6 nations (however, could this be down to bad form in general?). Currently he is playing on the wing.

Then we have Keith Earls, another talented player. He is very dangerous, with more natural pace than Fitz, except he probably isn't just as creative, or as good a distributor. He is definitely a better finisher though, as he shown plenty of times during the RWC. He also has played everywhere from 11-15. Currently he is playing 13.

So here we have the situation of 2 very talented players, who are both utility backs, and possibly haven't selected their best position. Many people think they are both wingers, however Fitz may not have the raw pace needed. Earls to me looks like a definite back 3 player, yet some think his best position might be 13.

My solution would be to swap their positions, put Earls back on the wing for Munster, and move Fitz to 13 for Leinster. I think this will be both of their best positions. I am sure many will disagree with this though, so my question is where will they feature for both province and country?

In the long term or now? Earls will unfortunately play centre I think. Munster lack options in the centre but not for the wing. Earls is a great finisher and has a decent pace but lacks a bit of physicality and I think lacks a bit of a brain (seen on Sunday when he got white line fever). Fitz has been class this year. I think he could be a very good twelve and would like to see him there a few times.

Both. Just wherever you would prefer to see him play now/the future. The problem with munster is that they signed Chambers, instead of a 12, so playing Earls at 13 doesn't actually solve their problems at centre. They have Mafi at 12, then Earls, Barnes and Chambers at 13. One of them is going to be out of position, if something happens to Mafi.

Chambers is on a short deal too as far as I know.

Well first point is that Fitzgeralds pace looked fine to me at the weekend.

I sort of agree in that to me Fitzgerald is more suited to centre than Earls

I think both are natural back 3 players though. Earls for me has all the skills to be a brilliant full back. He has pace, strength and all those unorthodox GAA skills. His best game for Ireland by miles was at 15 against England.

That said I think Earls will be lining out at 13 for Ireland and Munster for the foreseable future.

Both decent club players. Neither are international standard.

Do you think DK is saying to Munster to play Earls at 13, as thats where he'll play come 6 nations time?

Chunky Norwich wrote:Both decent club players. Neither are international standard.

But they are Lions standard!!! thats above International. Poor WUM.

Chunky Norwich wrote:Both decent club players. Neither are international standard.

Clueless.

roddersm wrote:Well first point is that Fitzgeralds pace looked fine to me at the weekend.

I sort of agree in that to me Fitzgerald is more suited to centre than Earls

I think both are natural back 3 players though. Earls for me has all the skills to be a brilliant full back. He has pace, strength and all those unorthodox GAA skills. His best game for Ireland by miles was at 15 against England.

That said I think Earls will be lining out at 13 for Ireland and Munster for the foreseable future.

But then what happens to Trimble and Bowe if both of these players start at wing? Or at full back, would you choose Earls over Jones and Kearney?

Kingshu wrote:

But they are Lions standard!!! .

That's amazing.

Did you not see Earls on the last Lions Tour? And he's got worse since then!

There are countless players above those two in the pecking order.

You clearly haven't seen either of them lately then. Go watch some rugby then come back when you know what you are talking about

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You clearly haven't seen either of them lately then. Go watch some rugby then come back when you know what you are talking about

Yes sir. T'be sure.

Unreal. I'd be worried if Ireland has to rely on these 2!

Poor WUM.

So a Heinenken cup try ratio of almost one in 3, and 20 triest in 62 total appearances for Munster isn't international standard? 11 tries in 26 games for ireland as well.

Rory the wings are competitive thats just how it is.....on form Fitzgerald starts at 11, Earls will play 13 in BOD's absence. Bowe will start at 14 but I'd be tempted to go with Trimble.

Kearney is nailed on at 15.

There are lots of good back 3 players right now.

Really not a WU.

Thomond wrote:So a Heinenken cup try ratio of almost one in 3, and 20 triest in 62 total appearances for Munster isn't international standard?

I think that makes Aled Brew Wales' best winger.

I don't expect you'll understand my point though.

The backline in general is very competitive, which is fantastic. All but at 12. The question is where both these players best position is, as I think Fitz may be best at 13 (and as a huge fan of Spence, I would rather be wrong ).

Earls is a definite wing or full back IMO.

5 tries in a World Cup for Earls also. Just throwing that in there.

Chunky is entitled to his opinion .....I can see why some people don't rate Earls or Fitz and both have had some poor runs of form in the past few seasons.

Thankfully Fitzgerald looks to be turning the corner again and most Irish fans know how good Earls can be. Neither have yet consistantly delivered on their respective talents though.

Rodders, you have a point but Earls still scored tries when he was out of form though. I wouldn't go as far to say they're not international standard but they have not been as good as the can be for the last while.

Earls is like Morgan Stoddart. Can be brilliant in the opposition half. Can eb awful in his own. Therefore can't be considered a true test quality player.

Fitzgerald is a tidy enough player but come on he is nowhere near the quality of Bowe, BOD and Kearney on his day.

Just want to quote you on something you have said in the past rodders about you play your best players.. you said that as a justification for playing both SOB and Ferris as our flankers, as many people didn't think of SOB as a 7 (myself included, until recently). I guess the same could be said for our backline? If so, it is very useful to have utility backs who play a number of positions.

Earls, Fitz, Bowe, Sexton, Murray are the players who must be included IMO. Bowe may not be having the best run, but he always seems to deliver for Ireland.

If you saw Fitz on Saturday you might think differently. Stoddart would have more than likely the first choice 15 for Wales if not for injury.

Firstly I think Kearney has to start at 15, and if he’s injured then hopefully Jones is back and raring to go by then because we need to play specialist fullbacks, Earls had an exceptional game at fullback against England but they were tactically impotent and any other team would have tested him more (not his fault).

While I believe that Earls is a winger (and so is Fitzgerald) I think Kidney will pick

15 – Kearney
14 – Bowe
13 – Earls
12 – Darcy
11 – Fitzgerald

Chunky Norwich wrote:Earls is like Morgan Stoddart. Can be brilliant in the opposition half. Can eb awful in his own. Therefore can't be considered a true test quality player.

Fitzgerald is a tidy enough player but come on he is nowhere near the quality of Bowe, BOD and Kearney on his day.

The thing that made me realise you don't know what you are talking about is Earls going downhill since the Lions, after he just came out of a RWC scoring 5 tries, and was part of possibly the best back 3 in the NH last year (Howlett, Earls, Jones). He has had some shockers in the past, and he needs consistency, but the talent is certainly there. Also, don't forget it took Bowe a long time to be considered international standard. Many thought he would never make it also, and look how wrong they turned out to be.

Mickado wrote:Firstly I think Kearney has to start at 15, and if he’s injured then hopefully Jones is back and raring to go by then because we need to play specialist fullbacks, Earls had an exceptional game at fullback against England but they were tactically impotent and any other team would have tested him more (not his fault).

While I believe that Earls is a winger (and so is Fitzgerald) I think Kidney will pick

15 – Kearney
14 – Bowe
13 – Earls
12 – Darcy
11 – Fitzgerald

Earls hasn't been tested properly at 15, agreed, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't be good if he was. Kearney is a great player, but it is unfortunate he still isn't the best 15 for Leinster. Jones I rate very highly, the problem is, when is he actually coming back??

Yeah thats a good point Rory, you play your best players but the balance needs to be right too...is that a contradiction? ....probably but I can't articulate any better....

Thomond I agree, Earls try scoring is beyond question but I think we've yet to see the best of him. In every position there is a question mark over him, you could say the same about fitz. Both can be sublime and terrible.

Its interesting that Earls, Fitzgerald and Trimble were all phenomenal young talents and broke through at a very young age but all have suffered from being shifted around and none have quite fulfilled their early potential...yet.

By comparison Bowe didn't look as good as any of these guys at 21, IMO, but has become the better player you'd have to say, so far. Is it because he knuckled down and focused on one position?

I think Earls must remain favourite for the 13 shirt otherwise we are playing an untried test play be it - O'Malley, Barnes, Cave, Mcfadden or Spence. a big step up for whichever one it was.

On that basis Kearney start at 15 with Jones being injured.
So its 2 from Bowe, Trimble or Fitzgerald.
If Earls wasn't selected at 15 I think he and Bowe would be the wingers

15 – Kearney
14 – Bowe
13 – Earls
12 – Darcy
11 – Fitzgerald

That's a midfield lacking a centre who will put in big first up tackles. D'Arcy is back in a bit form and can be a nuisence at a lineout but can struggle to make the hits when the opposition step onto his inside shoulder. Earls doesn't know D'Arcy and as demonstrated in the RWC warm up game isn't the best positionally which can leave him slighly out of position in the OC berth. It's an either or for me with one of the Ulster/Leinster specialist centres being good alternative options. Having said that I'm English so I'm not too fussed if you go with but I'd find room for Trimble and Bowe on the wings and look for a full back with a greater attacking intent than Kearney.

Hang on now Rory, Kearney might not be the best 15 at Leinster, but at least he's consistantly playing there. Earls might be the best 15 in the world but if he doesn't play there for Munster he can't play there for Ireland.

To be far though Rodders Trimble has been purely a winger for a few years now - not sure that the being shifted around arguement can still be used with respect to him.

Earls is, for me a back three player which is why I hope, but dont expect, him not to be at 13.

As for Fitzgerald - to be honest still struggling to decide which is his best position - I think that is a problem.
From what I have seen it is not 12 or 15. So maybe 13 is a good shout.

Trouble is Earls is a back three player who his province play a lot at 13 whilst Fitzgerald is a maybe 13 who his provinces never play there.

Has anyone seen Bowe play recently. He has been average and i dont think his form from a year ago is relative. I have said this as a justification for leaving Fitz behind at the world cup and i stick by it.

To my mind with have four front line wingers; Trimble, Earls, Fitz and Bowe. Now Bowe has reached heights in performance that the other three havent but he is currently well off them. Earls is coming back from injury and if he is playing at 13 he should be considered at 13 (we all know Deccie rates him here).

Fitz is showing great form and if that continues he will deserve a spot. Trimble is showing good form (blunder aside) but i do think he needs to up his game a touch to ensure he makes the team/squad. Earls is entirely dependent on where he plays and how he plays.

For me the backline at present should be

Reddan
Sexton
Fitz
D'arcy/McFadden/Wallace (only if he has enough games)
Cave/Earls/O'Malley
Trimble
Kearney

Sam I agree regarding the centres. D'arcy back tracks a lot in defence and can be exposed front on, especially the inside shoulder...Earls shoots the line and both are more comfortable tackling from the side than head on.

That will be our centres and they will be exposed at some stage I'm afraid.

Kearney is actually playing very well in attack lately and is peerless under the high ball.

...hate to bring it up, folks, but mention Earls and Fitz as much as you want - merits, demerits, what-have-you. But what will dictate success for either, if selected, and for all, when selected! - is the model, the style, the design.

If Ireland plays to the strength of their ever growing collection of backs candidates, then those two can shine. If the style curtails the skills they bring, they will again look ordinary at International level. It really isn't about individuals, it's about coaching.

Over to you DOD

Kearney is playing excellently. I remember him going through his patch of bad form and the criticism of him was that he kicks too often and when he doesn’t kick he runs down blind alleys, gets tackled and never looks for the offload. Anyone see the game on Saturday? Most offloads of anyone in the game 89m run, 2 clean breaks. He’s the best fullback in the country on form.

Fly has a point. Our backs coaching is awful we could have Campese, Lomu, Horan and BOD we would go nowhere if the coaching isn't good!

Standulstermen wrote:Has anyone seen Bowe play recently.

Yes but Bowe for a couple of seasons was genuinely one of the best players in the world in his position...could you say the same about any of the other 3?

Geoff I agree about Trimble. He has made a good fist of the wing position but to me he always looks like what he is...a hard running centre on the wing. He's a brilliant player but never looks like a natural finisher and always looks at his most comfortable running hard into contact and coming inside.

Rodders

Keith Woof for a good few seasons was one of the best players in the world but i wouldnt advocate starting him at 2. If it was a choice between bringing in someone green like Gilroy or playing Bowe then i understand why we would stick with Tommy but we have 2 seasoned internationals playing better than him currently. If Tommy gets his form back i would be delighted and would obviously pick him but we have all been told how the 6N is our bread and butter and it isnt the place to play people back into form.

I actually thought Bowe played quite well at home to Saracens - the rest of the backs were awful (with the possible of exception of Shane)

Being a winger with those half backs, centres and a poor 15 is a pretty thankless task.

Sorry stand I think we have crossed wires....I am discussing Bowe with regards a different point....that he has fulfilled his talent and the other guys haven't......I agree if he isn't playing well I wouldn't pick him.

No worries Rodders!

This is really an exciting time for Ireland. Get the coaching right and we truly have some effective backs 9-15. But we have to get it right...we have to give them a backs coach and a more fluid forwards/backs game plan to get their juices going.
Nothing colder than a richly talented backs player standing around watching the forward action for 50 to 60 minutes. They are hot blooded creatures and need constant stimulation to keep their interest and skill sets up.

It will be interesting to see what Les Kiss makes of the backs this 6N.

Thomond wrote:If you saw Fitz on Saturday you might think differently. Stoddart would have more than likely the first choice 15 for Wales if not for injury.

What you've done there is:

a) Presume I didn't see the match
b) Think 1 good try has rocketed him into Lions contention or something.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The thing that made me realise you don't know what you are talking about is......

I'm glad that you won't be quoting any of my posts in future then.

Chunky, you were the one who said on their day. Fitz scored two magnificent tries on Saturday and it was one of the best performances by a single player this season. Better than any performance from Kearney or Bowe in the last while. I was one of the people advocating Fitz for Ireland in the RWC. He is a great player. Has been on song for Leinster this year.

Just for a look, here are 3 potential back-lines, that I could see being played come the 6 nations:

Murray - Sexton
McFadden - Earls
Fitz - Kearney - Bowe

Murray - Sexton
McFadden - Fitz
Earls - Kearney - Bowe

Reddan - ROG
D'Arcy - Spence
Trimble - Jones - Carr

The last one is a bit weird, but it is just to present other options.

I think the half backs are certain to be Murray and Sexton, but the rest of the backs could be any combination. Kearney is probably a cert to start at 15, unless Jones shows his previous form when he returns.

EDIT: Decided to throw Carr in that last team, for an extra wing option.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The thing that made me realise you don't know what you are talking about is......

I'm glad that you won't be quoting any of my posts in future then.

Speak some sense and I won't have to