Luke Fitzgerald and Keith Earls.

First topic message reminder :

So with Luke back to his best, and showing just why he was so highly rated when he first came on the scene, he has to be one of the first names on both Leinster and Ireland's team sheet. The question is, where does he play? He has played everywhere from 11-15, and has stated himself his favourite position would be 15. However, he did not do well there during the 6 nations (however, could this be down to bad form in general?). Currently he is playing on the wing.

Then we have Keith Earls, another talented player. He is very dangerous, with more natural pace than Fitz, except he probably isn't just as creative, or as good a distributor. He is definitely a better finisher though, as he shown plenty of times during the RWC. He also has played everywhere from 11-15. Currently he is playing 13.

So here we have the situation of 2 very talented players, who are both utility backs, and possibly haven't selected their best position. Many people think they are both wingers, however Fitz may not have the raw pace needed. Earls to me looks like a definite back 3 player, yet some think his best position might be 13.

My solution would be to swap their positions, put Earls back on the wing for Munster, and move Fitz to 13 for Leinster. I think this will be both of their best positions. I am sure many will disagree with this though, so my question is where will they feature for both province and country?

Thomond wrote:Ask Matt Banahan about his tackling ability Rory!

True! Prime example of a winger who is not good at finishing tries

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Yet you said they are the best finishing wingers in your country. They haven't done it on the world stage though, so how can you say they are the best finishers? Earls scored 5 tries in a RWC. THat is why he is the best finisher we have on our team, and why he would be best suited to playing wing. Those players you list have never set the world alight. So why compare them to the likes of Earls?

[slits throat and has beld to death/]

Also, I said Earls is both our best finisher and has the most natural pace of any of our team. I didn't say he has no other attributes, but those are his best ones. And that is why he would be best on the wing IMO.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Yet you said they are the best finishing wingers in your country. They haven't done it on the world stage though, so how can you say they are the best finishers? Earls scored 5 tries in a RWC. THat is why he is the best finisher we have on our team, and why he would be best suited to playing wing. Those players you list have never set the world alight. So why compare them to the likes of Earls?

[slits throat and has beld to death/]

I have noticed a few times when you are wrong about something you resort to witty remarks..

Leave Chunky alone lads. He's opinionated but ain't we all. Now obnoxiously opinionated, thems the guys I don't like.


Stand up, Fly, I hear some of you say

Oh and rodders, I would argue that both Trimble and Fitz both finished their tries beautifully over the weekend (well er, Fitz did).

Exactly and Earls made a horlicks of his.....

So now you are suggesting that Earls should be our centre? This is one confusing thread I regret making it now! I shall leave the decisions up to Mr. Kidney!

No I'm suggesting that he plays with his head up and that he's not (yet) the try machine you make out he is!

Kidney will pick Earls at 13 though....

I think he is the most dangerous player with the best finishing ability we have, followed by Bowe. Therefore I see him as a back three player. He hasn't the hands/distribution for centre really. I agree that he will probably be at 13 for the 6 nations..

I really hope Bowe doesn't start in the 6 nations. He has been mediocre for a year now and is still seen as a dead cert. This is the problem with Irish rugby.

Kearney looks nailed on for the 15 shirt.
And with Bowe or Trimble on the right wing i think we'd do well to have a speedster on the left wing, and for me Earls fits that more than Fitz.

I do however expect DK to start Earls, Fitz, Darcy and Bowe in the 6 nations and i fear at the end of March we still might not have any more answers to the questions we are asking.

Disagree Rory, our two best finishers are Bowe and O'Driscoll. Earls has a decent strike rate but a lot of tries have come against weak opposition.

He is a talent and a potential top player but thats it right now. Bowe is a proven try scorer and big game player who has come to the fore in the biggest games.

He's done it in the HEC but for me Earls has only had one really standout game for Ireland. He has the ability but hasn't yet delivered consistantly.

Forgot about BOD *facepalm*

However I think BOD has lost a lot of pace, which will affect his ability to finish tries, and he also isn't available for this 6 nations (my excuse for forgetting him )

roddersm wrote:Disagree Rory, our two best finishers are Bowe and O'Driscoll. Earls has a decent strike rate but a lot of tries have come against weak opposition.

He is a talent and a potential top player but thats it right now. Bowe is a proven try scorer and big game player who has come to the fore in the biggest games.

He's done it in the HEC but for me Earls has only had one really standout game for Ireland. He has the ability but hasn't yet delivered consistantly.

I think you will find that old Tommy over the last couple of years has a poor strike rate compared to earls. But sure whatever rocks your boat.

DOD I'm not just talking about tries to match ratio. Against top tier opposition Bowe has produced bigger performances and scored more crucial tries.

Earls has an impressive 11 international tries but only 1 is against a top 5 side, England, with 7 against relatively weaker opposition i.e. Fiji, Italy, Russia and Canada.

His strike rate really flatters to decieve and is incomparable with Bowe's who despite having 'poor strike rate' has scored 5 tries in 2010/11 with 3 against top 5 sides: England, NZ and SA.

You conveniently forget his tries against Wales who are a relatively decent side plus that bowe has only scored four tries in the last two seasons two of whom were against America this year.

5 tries DOD USA * 2, England, SA and NZ. The fact remains that Earls has not scored against top opposition other than Wales and England and has yet to score against a SH side. Wales were a good side in the RWC but not great in 2010 when he scored the 2 tries. I can't recall many try assists by Earls either.

Earls try scoring record is impressive but flatters to decieve...next you'll be telling me Chris Ashton is a good player

Or you could say that bowe has been ineffective this last year or both have scored similar amounts given their game ratio, or that at least three of earls tries against Wales and eng were when he was centre. The fact is he is our best player for the of position at the moment and probably for some time by the look of things...we are lucky to gave him

We are lucky to have Earls, I never said we weren't or that he isn't a very talented player. I'm just saying he has yet to deliver consistantly on the international stage. People point to the 5 tries at the RWC but that is a false economy as 4 were against Italy and Russia and he had a poor game against Wales. He showed against England in March how good he can be but we don't see it enough.

He will play 13 when BOD is out and hopefully he will prove his doubters wrong.

Ireland Have 2 players that run by some distance the best lines - BOD and Bowe. All other Irish backs could learn from them.

One is injured but it is because of this skill I would still pick Bowe which seems to put me in a minority.

geoff998rugby wrote:One is injured but it is because of this skill I would still pick Bowe which seems to put me in a minority.

Geoff Bowe will get picked no doubt about it. He is proven world class. However speaking hypothetically if he is not playing well at the Ospreys and Fitzgerald and Trimble are on form then I don't think he should just get in on reputation alone. He needs to be performing and if its not happening at the Ospreys then he needs to assess his options (i.e. come back to Ulster ).

I don't think hes playing as poorly as some are making out, I thought he was superb at times in the RWC, but he's certainly not playing as consistantly well as he was from 2008-2010 when he was simply electric and perhaps our best player.

Another reason I would pick Bowe is I would see him on the wing and D'Arcy at 12 helping the best available 13 into the game. My 13 would be Cave or O'Malley. Bowe would offer experience and advise that I don't think the alternatives - Earls, Fitzgerald or Trimble could match. The best of those 3 would be on the other wing.

I want - Trimble/Fitzgerald/Earls, D'Arcy, Cave/O'Malley, Bowe
I expect - Trimble/Fitzgerald, D'Arcy, Earls, Bowe

geoff998rugby wrote:
I want - Trimble/Fitzgerald/Earls, D'Arcy, Cave/O'Malley, Bowe
I expect - Trimble/Fitzgerald, D'Arcy, Earls, Bowe

Yeah I'd probably concur with that Geoff...although I'd still say based on form Fitzgerald is nailed on at 11 and Trimble deserves the 14 shirt. You've Zebo and Gilroy playing well at 14 too.

McFadden and O'Malley would be nice to see but it won't happen.

Cave at 12 might actually be the best foil for Earls at 13? Earls needs some one clever and a talker inside him I think and McFadden/D'arcy don't fit the bill. Like wise cave needs someone with a bit of gas beside him.

On Bowe........... there is a sense - only my observation and my opinion, before the Tommy cavalry come and eviserate me!!!! - but he seems to be doing a Fitz in recent months. A very good player who is beginning to lack confidence, chasing too hard, losing balls from the tips of his fingers, his mind well ahead of his positioning.

I think he needs the same advice Fitzgerald was getting back then - don't rush your mind. You have more time than you think. Don't try so hard and trust your instincts.

...Er don't see the parallels with Fitzgerald to be honest....other than one maybe...Like Fitzgerald last season he isn't playing as poorly as people are making out.

The other thing is Bowe, like O'Driscoll, can turn it on on the big stage even when not on top form. He had no form at all going into the RWC but almost got a hatrick against the USA, should have had 2 plus and assist against Italy and had a brilliant game against Australia. Granted he was poor against Wales but who wasn't.

I think the form of the Ospreys is probably not helping Bowe and he seems to have picked up a few niggling injuries in the past year or so which he didn't in that 2 year purple patch he had. He has been playing a lot of games and maybe at 28 he should come back to Ireland were he'll be looked after a bit better.

roddersm wrote:...Er don't see the parallels with Fitzgerald to be honest....other than one maybe...Like Fitzgerald last season he isn't playing as poorly as people are making out.

I've seen him fluff a number of run ins with a tad too much exuberance...that strikes me as very Fitz as he was last year. Not as dramatic, to be sure but you say yourself that he ain't hitting the high levels he can. Perhaps that IS part of the fact that Ospreys aren't as assured as they used to be, perhaps it is niggling injuries. But he is definitely stabbing at chances he would otherwise smoothly execute.

Yeah ok maybe you are right to make a comparison...but every player has their good and bad spells and Bowe had a phenomenal run of form that had to dip some time.

Like Fitz ok he's making mistakes but still doing good things which maybe are being overshadowed by the mistakes which people are pouncing on.

Bowe didn't become a bad player over night. The running lines, support play, vision, pace and try scoring abilty are all still there so hopefully he'll be back to his best soon.

Some interesting stuff said here and I'd like to support some of it.

Earls is lightening fast and a very good finisher
Earls has poor vision, distribution and decision making (for a centre)
Bowe and BOD are our best finishers as they score tries against top ranked teams
Bowe while not the fastest wing is one of the smartest re: lines he runs
Fitzgerald is in great form so far this year but needs to keep scoring tries which is his weakness realistically
Bowe needs to up his game some really
Trimble has been pretty good

Backs I expect:
Murray-Sexton
Darcy-Earls
Fitzgerald-Kearney-Bowe

Reddan-ROG-Trimble

Backs I would pick:
Murray-Sexton
Darcy-O'Malley
Fitzgerald-Kearney-Trimble

Reddan-ROG-Bowe


Also to my eyes both Fitzgerald and Bowe are much more natural centres than Earls, funnily enough it is neither of them who are playing at centre for their clubs.

I think a lot of the things that make Earls not a centre could be coached out of him or rather distribution and decision making could be coached into him, but I'd be fairly certain that Munster is not the place where he would learn those skills.

I think Bowe has to start honestly - he always seems to perform for Ireland. He was in bad form for them before the RWC and he still shined for Ireland. Many players seem to look out of form for the Ospreys (so he should return to Ulster ) I also agree with you Rodders , Fitz last season was not as bad as people made out. Apart from his stint at 15, he was always defensively very solid, but obviously his confidence to perform his magic, like we saw over the weekend, was gone.

On the Bowe issue. He isnt having shockers and at any other stage he would start. However we have two experienced international wingers performing better than him at present and thus i think they should be selected.

Bowe ain't in any way a bad player, never said it.

.................. but like you, Rodders, I'll be downright honest, and say I think it's time he came home, to whatever province will cater for him. I think he needs it now.

Pete, I agree with the majority of what you said, but not your personal selection for O'Malley. I think he needs more time and that was shown over the weekend. Throwing him in the deep end at this stage could be very dangerous for him I feel.

I agree with all you guys!

Yeah I amn't sure of him either tbh.

I was but not after Saturday. I think he is the 13 we need or maybe he will be the 13 we need.

If not him I'd put in Bowe in at 13

DOD wrote:
Regardless of the opinions expressed Earls will play centre because he is the best we have in that position and he will play OC for Munster from now on and Fitz is back on form and looking good on the wing (which is great as he is a class player).

Regardless of the multiple orgasms in D4 last weekend when you are playing a team as inept as Bath it would have made the Young Munster front row from 1990 look like world beating backs. There is a big difference at intl level which is why Sexton goes from being good to shocking depending on who he is playing. Having said that Gaffney was not great as a backs coach and Less Kiss is taking on that responsibility for the 6ns. Even though some of the backplay in the world cup was very good its still the case that forwards win matches and backs by how much. We didnt win against wales for example because we lacked the ability to dominate wales up front and our much vaunted back row came off second best.

It will be interesting for sure to see what happens in the 6ns with our back play, but if you like watching stylish open rugby regardless of the result stick to the barbarians.

What team were you watching at the WC,our backs produced almost nothing for the whole tournament.We dominated Wales upfront for about 60 minutes but our attack was toothless as our only game plan was give it to Ferris or SoB and see if they can score on their own,Gatland nullified our only other attacking ploy by swapping Shane Williams to the right wing.

Wales defended well against a predictable attack for long periods and then scored against us almost whenever they entered our 22.

Also good to see you get a predictable dig in against Sexton,however I think poor coaching is more likely the reason behind the 'Ireland teams' poor performances over the last 2 years.I made this point on another thread but Healy and David Wallace apart before the WC there wasn't one Irish player who hasn't been below par over the last few years.(I'm giving O'Connell and Ferris a pass here cos they were out injured for so long.)We have players in all the provinces who consistently perform at a level above the rest of Europe for their clubs but can't replicate it when they play for Ireland.

As to the Fitz and Earls debate,I think Earls will be 13 for the 6 Nations but not long term,he's a decent centre but I think he could be a great winger if he's allowed play there consistently.Fitz will probably be starting 11 in the 6 nations if he keeps up this form.I've seen some comentators say that he's getting back to the form that saw him make the Lions but I think he's blowing that form out of the water.He's starting to fulfil the potential he's shown for so long and if he can add a consistent strike rate to his other attributes he has all the skills to be a top class winger for years to come.

I think that is the next thing he needs. He needs to be scoring tries more regularily than he has been or at least making those breaks more to set up tries.

Some really good points here actually about players performing at their best at HEC level for their province, but not quite getting it right when it comes to the internationals. Surely that is down to the Ireland coaches? Leinster play as a team, Munster play as a team, Ulster.. well they play a bit like Ireland atm I guess. Individuals. There needs to be balance in the team, and they need to gel. Although if you are being coached to do one thing at your province, then another at Ireland, it must be hard to adjust.

I think a lot of the blame has to be on the coaches.

The Leinster game plan is very clear for the world to see as is the Munster one etc.

The Irish one is kinda haphazard. It's very archaic and yet at the same time it's not as effective as Munster's style.

DK really needs to embrace modern rugby quickly or we will get slowly left behind I fear. We are quite an ineffective national team i fear and guys don't make the same breaks or big carries/tackles. The standard obviously is higher at International level than provincial but not to that extent.

I guess what I am saying is....

I don't think Ireland is the sum of its parts.

I agree with all of that Pete... the difference is at Leinster everything is well oiled and well drilled and every player knows their role...what to do if they break in attack and what to do if they are breached in defence.

By contract, in attack at least, Ireland look clueless at times...there is no support play, no back moves and when the play descends into multi phases we are all over the place...forwards in the 10 channel, backs too deep, slow pick and goes when we have quick ball and then trying to run slow ball. Running lines all over the shop.

That all comes down to coaching and on field leadership. No question about it.

roddersm wrote:I agree with all of that Pete... the difference is at Leinster everything is well oiled and well drilled and every player knows their role...what to do if they break in attack and what to do if they are breached in defence.

By contract, in attack at least, Ireland look clueless at times...there is no support play, no back moves and when the play descends into multi phases we are all over the place...forwards in the 10 channel, backs too deep, slow pick and goes when we have quick ball and then trying to run slow ball. Running lines all over the shop.

That all comes down to coaching and on field leadership. No question about it.

I completely agree with that and I think a lot of it is down to the forwards to an extent.
They don't know their role at all IMO or else their role is far too specific because with Ireland their is a free flowing air where everyone is comfortable on the ball and it doesn't die with anyone.
Even Cullen I've seen acting as a link man albeit a really slow one. It seems to be with leinster that there is always someone in the right place at the right time and that person generally has the skill level to deal with most scenarios.

With Ireland no one seems as well oiled and the idea is more to recycle and play safe rather than try and get the ball away and keep attacking. POC and DOC are devils for this. In Leinster there are attacking options everywhere where as in Ireland there is the backrow, Healy and Bowe. They are the guys who are going to breach defences and the defences know this.

Fitzgerald and earls are very good wingers but they need the freedom to attack unchained and they need their colleagues to feel unpressured so if they can see Fitz or Earls ahead coming up to an opponent don't hang back and get ready to ruck, speed up get on his shoulder for the offload.

The Irish defensive mentality is outstanding.
The Irish offensive mentality is beyond negative. It's scared, nervous, conservative and not very threatening

The Irish offensive mentality is beyond negative. It's scared, nervous, conservative and not very threatening

That sums it up quite well. Although we did concede some very soft tries against Wales. That poor defence was really more of a one off bad performance. Our defence has nearly always been good. Our attack has been total rubbish for a long time. Since Kidney took over actually. We won the Grand Slam by passing less and kicking more than anyone else. But at least it was coherent and effective game plan.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:The Irish offensive mentality is beyond negative. It's scared, nervous, conservative and not very threatening

I would add the word "confused" to the list. It doesn't help that Munster and Ulster are so poor at times in attack. It not that they don't have the players, its just they don't have as slick a gameplan as Leinster. No excuses for Kidney though, its his job to put together a national team and gameplan that is fit for purpose.

As Feckless says at least in 2009 we had a gameplan, albeit a conservative one.

Regarding the soft tries against Wales. I don't think they were soft, they just game after wave after wave of pressure, which was a direct result of us booting the ball away because we were so devoid of ideas with the ball.

It may sound biased but it is not intended to be, but Kidney needs to base his game plan on Leinster's rather than Munster's.

...that is bias Pete......you forgot about Ulster.....

Also Ireland don't use even half as many dummy runners and decoy lines as we should. Bowe's first try vs the USA is the kinda movement we should be utilizing.

Feck I'll be backs coach if I have to!

Rodders-
Ulster are in the middle, Munster and Leinster are the extremes

Ulster don't have a game plan Pete so Kidney can't use ours....oh wait he already is!

Ulster are playing the same sort of gameplan as Ireland - a team of individuals. Ireland already show the Munster mentality in defence. We don't want to lose that, as we are very good at it. But we need to use our backline to its full potential, with attacking, flowing rugby. I don't care if this is OTT, but we potentially have the best backline in the world, and I genuinely believe that.

I think our attacking rugby involves the whole team and not the backs.

If the backs don't perform well makes it harder for the forwards and vice vearsa IMO.

The whole team needs to buy into attacking rugby

we can only live in hope pete.

im dreading the 6 nations. we have been spoilt as leinster fans and there have been moments to savour from all provinces over the last few years. watching ireland has put me in a grump the last year

we have so many good players its unreal. players who excel in the hc every week. of course there is a step up but i will be really worried that the current coaching are not up to it if we do not finish at least 3rd and play with some panache

The attack needs a complete overhaul I think we can't just send in sob and fez and hope they go through guys. If that's our strategy they will be double marked.

My brother and I were thinking last night, can anyone name a modern day centre pairing smaller than Darcy and Bod?