Keith Earls and the number 13

So Munster have named Keith Earls at outside centre against Treviso. This is now Earls' third match in a row where he has played 13 and looks set to continue this against Castres and Northampton. Given his past experience here for Munster, Ireland and Lions is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

red_stag wrote:is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

Yes. He always was a certainty.

The problem is that Earls will do just fine against Terviso but up against the best teams, when scoring chances are at a premium and there is little margin for error in attack or defence then Earls will once again be exposed for what he is.....a talented but raw back 3 player playing in the centre.

Yeah he'll start against Wales and I don't have a major problem with him filling in for the 6N but I don't feel it's a long term career move for him.

There are far better centres coming through and he's such a talented winger,I feel it would be a bit like playing BoD at 10 when he was the same age.He wouldn't disgrace the jersey but you'd have a better player in both positions if you just put him where he belongs.

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

Yes. He always was a certainty.

The problem is that Earls will do just fine against Terviso but up against the best teams, when scoring chances are at a premium and there is little margin for error in attack or defence then Earls will once again be exposed for what he is.....a talented but raw back 3 player playing in the centre.

Yep, its going to be difficult to fill BOD's boots. Fergus McFadden got shown up defensively against Russia when trying to fill Earls' booths in the world cup.

Still, Earls scored 2 tries against Wales the first time he played in the centre for Ireland in the 6Ns.

Sigh. You know, I think when Earls does become the next 13 for Ireland, Kidney will stick with him through thick and thin. He is going to be playing 13 for a long time I feel, until he "adjusts" to the position. And it will be a real shame for the likes of Cave, Spence and Griffin. Apart from a few Munster fans, does anybody else support the idea of Earls at 13? Or do any Munster fans not like him at 13?

I don't mind him at 13. I think he is a better winger but we need him at 13 for Munster for the rest of the season arguably.

who would you play 12 lads if earls plays 13 which it appears he will?

i would worry about our handling and passing in midfield if darcy is paired up with him. mc fadden for me, see how he goes. would go for paddy wallace over darcy if he was fit.

Sin é wrote:

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:is he a certainty to play there against Wales?

Yes. He always was a certainty.

The problem is that Earls will do just fine against Terviso but up against the best teams, when scoring chances are at a premium and there is little margin for error in attack or defence then Earls will once again be exposed for what he is.....a talented but raw back 3 player playing in the centre.

Yep, its going to be difficult to fill BOD's boots. Fergus McFadden got shown up defensively against Russia when trying to fill Earls' booths in the world cup.

Still, Earls scored 2 tries against Wales the first time he played in the centre for Ireland in the 6Ns.

Fill Earls' boots? What about Earl's getting shown up defensively against England? Neither McFadden nor Earls are 13s.

Rory, Earls was badly at fault for the Tuilagi try. However I thought overall he did well enough there in that game. He was excellent aginast Wales 2 years ago at 13

red_stag wrote:Rory, Earls was badly at fault for the Tuilagi try. However I thought overall he did well enough there in that game. He was excellent aginast Wales 2 years ago at 13

I was just pointing out to Sin that if he is going to mention McFadden being defensively at fault at times, then Earls must also be mentioned. The difference is, Earls let in a try. Which is worse.

Even if Earls does do a relatively good job as a 13, it still is a stupid idea. Earls is quite clearly best as a back 3 player, and he will always be worse than the other natural centres we have at 13. So what is the sense in playing him at 13?

Rory_Gallagher wrote: So what is the sense in playing him at 13?

- Only player to have played 13 for Ireland
- Only player to have played 13 for Lions
- Starting at 13 for his Province
- Some excellent displays in the 13 shirt for both Munster/Ireland

Please please play Earles at 13

Neither Earls or McFadden are comfortable at outside centre. Neither can hold the defensive line and both can only pass right to left.

Earls in particular has an extremely limited range of passing so how we can be expected to launch any meaningful attacks with him there I don't know. His running lines are poor too and is much better in broken play, hence hes a back 3 player.

Like I say hes ok against weak oppostion when he's on the front foot and he can use his pace but other than that hes a fish out of water.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: So what is the sense in playing him at 13?

- Only player to have played 13 for Ireland
- Only player to have played 13 for Lions
- Starting at 13 for his Province
- Some excellent displays in the 13 shirt for both Munster/Ireland

- Darren Cave, Fergus McFadden, Andrew Trimble, Gordon D'arcy, Luke Fitzgerald
- Tommy Bowe, Luke Fitzgerald
- Darren Cave, Eoin O'Malley, Eoin Griffin
- Munster maybe...Ireland nope.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: So what is the sense in playing him at 13?

- Only player to have played 13 for Ireland
- Only player to have played 13 for Lions
- Starting at 13 for his Province
- Some excellent displays in the 13 shirt for both Munster/Ireland

And some not so excellent displays at 13. Here are some reasons why he shouldn't actually play 13.

1) He is best as a back three player
2) There are a number of natural 13s who are playing very well atm, who are much better than Earls at 13
3) Earls is not a good distributor, nor does he have the best decision making skills
4) Earls is starting at 13 for Munster only because of a lack of options at centre, and they have many back three players
5) His defence is suspect at 13, and since many teams do play centres the size of Tuilagi, he is going to struggle

He's an average winger who can finish well but will let you down defensively at 13 I reckon.

But remember lads when O'Driscoll started out he didn't have the greatest distribution or defence but he worked on it tirelessly and look how he turned out. Sometimes you've got to give a guy a chance, although im not sure if Earls will ever improve enough.

gowales wrote:But remember lads when O'Driscoll started out he didn't have the greatest distribution or defence but he worked on it tirelessly and look how he turned out. Sometimes you've got to give a guy a chance, although im not sure if Earls will ever improve enough.

What O'Driscoll lacked was physicality but the top two inches were always there. Earls can tackle ok, its his positioning and game reading is the problem.

Tuilagi didn't run through him, he waltzed round him without Earls laying a hand on him because he was ball watching and stepped out of the line. Too often he makes breaks and doesn't see his support, he absolutely is not a centre.

If Earls end up playing at 13 in the 6N, I would take it as evidence that NIQs are not the major hurdle stopping Ireland fulfilling their potential.

Don Alfonso wrote:If Earls end up playing at 13 in the 6N, I would take it as evidence that NIQs are not the major hurdle stopping Ireland fulfilling their potential.

Its the IQ of the head coach which this the major hurdle for Ireland.

Don Alfonso wrote:If Earls end up playing at 13 in the 6N, I would take it as evidence that NIQs are not the major hurdle stopping Ireland fulfilling their potential.

Are you suggestion a 24 year old Irish player is the reason for poor player development?

No, Stag. That is patently ridiculous.

Can you think of any other interpretation of my comment? Think hard, now.

Or just read Rodders' rather dry comment.

Did you see what I did there...IQ- NIQ....?.... ...tough crowd...

Actually Rodders just read it now thats pretty witty to be fair.

Ah, Rodders. I enjoyed it.

Anyway Don, I'm only being obtuse? (not sure thats even a proper description but it popped into my head).

I get what your saying. I think people worry too much. Darcy - Earls will be fine.

It's frustrating that we're sort of shoe-horning him in there when he's so good in the back three.

I might suggest that other players are more suited to the role. He can be a decent centre though, but never really looks comfortable in terms of distributing and positioning. I'm very happy with him playing for Ireland and slightly less happy with him in the centre.

Not sure he is being shoe horned though Notch. He was injured, then came back into the HEC squad in December at 13. He played 13 again against Conncacht and is playing 13 tomorrow against Treviso. He will be there against Castres in the Heinken Cup and again against Northampton Saints.

No, Stag, I know. I was, in turn, only being overly pointed.

As I posted on another thread - we are in a position at 13, in the provinces, that is exactly where the IRFU want us to be with these new NIQ rules - three IQ 13s playing HEC - Cave, Griffen and O'Malley.

Yet that has failed to produce a player good enough to stop Deccie preferring (rightly or wrongly) to play a winger out of position.

So when we have three IQ THs, will we end up playing a loosehead because none of them are good enough/perceived to be good enough anyway?

Yeah pretty much what Notch said.

I'd rather have someone whos a proper 13 who will run the right lines and make the right passes in attack and not get dragged out of position in defence.

Earls there makes it difficult to play attacking rugby because he tends to just do his own thing when he gets the ball and not look for players in better positions.

Maybe it will be ok but I just think on paper D'arcy and Earls leaves us short of ideas in attack and vulnerable in defence.

Don as I pointed out though since injury Earls hasn't played wing at all for Munster. Only at 13.

Rodders, I guess its a good thing game isn't played on paper

It is but the last time they played together on grass it was even worse than it looked on paper

You know what I have to say I watched that match again recently and with almost an hour gone the score was 10-10. Fitness told.

munkian wrote:He's an average winger who can finish well but will let you down defensively at 13 I reckon.

He is no average player by any means. He is a great finisher, he has great pace, and he is very dangerous with space. Hence why his best position would be wing/full back. Any chance of seeing him at full back in the 6 nations?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

munkian wrote:He's an average winger who can finish well but will let you down defensively at 13 I reckon.

He is no average player by any means. He is a great finisher, he has great pace, and he is very dangerous with space. Hence why his best position would be wing/full back. Any chance of seeing him at full back in the 6 nations?

Possibly but only if Kearney gets a knock. I can see at some stage our backline starting as:

09 Murray
10 Sexton
11 Fitzgerald
12 Darcy
13 Earls
14 Bowe
15 Kearney

and ending up later in the game as as:

09 Reddan
10 O'Gara
11 Fitzgerald
12 Darcy
13 McFadden
14 Bowe
15 Earls

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sigh. You know, I think when Earls does become the next 13 for Ireland, Kidney will stick with him through thick and thin. He is going to be playing 13 for a long time I feel, until he "adjusts" to the position. And it will be a real shame for the likes of Cave, Spence and Griffin. Apart from a few Munster fans, does anybody else support the idea of Earls at 13? Or do any Munster fans not like him at 13?

I don't have a problem with Earls at 13 (or 11 or 15). I think he is our (Munster & Irelands) best option at 13 for the moment. Maybe in 2/3 years time someone else will claim the jersey.

The way I look at it, D'Arcy got player of the 6Ns at 13 (the season BOD was out). He has never got that award for playing 12 which suggests he would make a better outside centre than inside centre.

I can understand why people are so impressed with him as a finisher. What I don't understand that they don't like to see this trait in an outside centre.

How many games is that, Stag? (Honest question.)

I don't think he's a better 13 than Cave. I think he's getting the nod because he has much more real international experience and a good track record (on the wing). Which kind of makes me wionder why we should try to have at least two HEC-playing IQ players for each position, if we're never going to trust them.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sigh. You know, I think when Earls does become the next 13 for Ireland, Kidney will stick with him through thick and thin. He is going to be playing 13 for a long time I feel, until he "adjusts" to the position. And it will be a real shame for the likes of Cave, Spence and Griffin. Apart from a few Munster fans, does anybody else support the idea of Earls at 13? Or do any Munster fans not like him at 13?

I don't have a problem with Earls at 13 (or 11 or 15). I think he is our (Munster & Irelands) best option at 13 for the moment. Maybe in 2/3 years time someone else will claim the jersey.

The way I look at it, D'Arcy got player of the 6Ns at 13 (the season BOD was out). He has never got that award for playing 12 which suggests he would make a better outside centre than inside centre.

I can understand why people are so impressed with him as a finisher. What I don't understand that they don't like to see this trait in an outside centre.

It is a great trait for an outside centre, but Earls is better with space, which he will not get as much playing at 13. The only reason you feel he is the best option is because he is from Munster, that is honestly the only conclusion I can come up with. If you have seen Cave, Spence or Griffin you would realise we have great options at 13. If anyone should move to 13, because they are experienced or whatever, it should be Fitzgerald. He has the distribution/rugby brain to play there.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The only reason you feel he is the best option is because he is from Munster.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The only reason you feel he is the best option is because he is from Munster.

Roll your eyes at that if you want, but why do you think it is only certain Munster fans who feel he should play 13? Like I said that is the only conclusion I can think of as to why he is apparently the best option for Ireland. I and others have listed plenty of better options.

Sin é wrote:
The way I look at it, D'Arcy got player of the 6Ns at 13 (the season BOD was out). He has never got that award for playing 12 which suggests he would make a better outside centre than inside centre.

D'arcy got it in 2007 too playing 12 didn't he?

Anyways to answer you question it is not the job of the 13 simply to finish, albeit it is a useful trait, but to create opportunites for either themselves or those outside them to finish.

There are also additional requirements and responsibilites, aligning and organising the defence, taking the ball into contact, rucking, support play, executing set plays which require distribution skills and kicking territorially when required.

Earls does not in my oppinion have the skill set required.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sigh. You know, I think when Earls does become the next 13 for Ireland, Kidney will stick with him through thick and thin. He is going to be playing 13 for a long time I feel, until he "adjusts" to the position. And it will be a real shame for the likes of Cave, Spence and Griffin. Apart from a few Munster fans, does anybody else support the idea of Earls at 13? Or do any Munster fans not like him at 13?

I don't have a problem with Earls at 13 (or 11 or 15). I think he is our (Munster & Irelands) best option at 13 for the moment. Maybe in 2/3 years time someone else will claim the jersey.

The way I look at it, D'Arcy got player of the 6Ns at 13 (the season BOD was out). He has never got that award for playing 12 which suggests he would make a better outside centre than inside centre.

I can understand why people are so impressed with him as a finisher. What I don't understand that they don't like to see this trait in an outside centre.

On the wing he is a great finisher,has decent defence and a very good kicking game.These qualities make me rate him very highly as a back 3 player,I'm not sure about his defence at 15 but he might be able to sort that if he got significant game time there.

In the centre he's a great finisher,his defence is okay (not as bad as made out) and thats about all I can say he offers.He doesn't create scores and he doesn't score tries when a move breaks down (like BoD v NZ or Eng in the GS game).I just don't see enough in his game at 13,Doug Howlett is a better finisher and a better defender than Earls yet he hasn't been shoehorned into 13.I know you'll never agree with me but I feel we're weakening the team in 2 positions by moving Earls from 11 to 13.

The fact is nobody knows who the best replacement for BOD should be. If Deccie goes with Earls in the Six Nations then so be it. Start him there in all 5 games. By the end we'll know if he's risen to the challenge or not.

If he does, happy days. If he doesn't, we try someone else in the summer. I'd like this midfield in the 6 Nations against Wales.

10. Sexton
12. McFadden
13. Earls

A completely different trio to the ones who faced them in the World Cup. We don't have anyone with the power of Roberts. But these three have loads of pace. The three of them are very fast. Let's see what trouble they can cause the Welsh midfield.

He wouldn't be my first choice but give the kid a shot anyway. I hate all this talk of the next RWC. It's 3 years away FFS. Australia built their team in 1.5/2 seasons. It doesn't take as long as people think.

Like I said, if Earls starts in the 6 nations, I doubt he will be dropped by the summer, no matter how he performs. Kidney will stick with him until he adjusts. I don't understand what the reasoning behind that is when you have great options already, but there you go.

Thomond wrote:He wouldn't be my first choice but give the kid a shot anyway. I hate all this talk of the next RWC. It's 3 years away FFS. Australia built their team in 1.5/2 seasons. It doesn't take as long as people think.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the RWC yet?

Thomond wrote:He wouldn't be my first choice but give the kid a shot anyway. I hate all this talk of the next RWC. It's 3 years away FFS. Australia built their team in 1.5/2 seasons. It doesn't take as long as people think.

Agree with this entirely. Every single word of it.

Rory that was more in the context of general Irish team talk. People saying POC shouldn't be playing next season because he won't be there in 2015. It's ridiculous. If you're playing international rugby for a season and aren't ready for the RWC then that's your own fault.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The fact is nobody knows who the best replacement for BOD should be. If Deccie goes with Earls in the Six Nations then so be it. Start him there in all 5 games. By the end we'll know if he's risen to the challenge or not.

If he does, happy days. If he doesn't, we try someone else in the summer. I'd like this midfield in the 6 Nations against Wales.

10. Sexton
12. McFadden
13. Earls

A completely different trio to the ones who faced them in the World Cup. We don't have anyone with the power of Roberts. But these three have loads of pace. The three of them are very fast. Let's see what trouble they can cause the Welsh midfield.

I'd actually be happy with that,in fairness I don't hate the idea of Earls at 13 but I just don't think it's going to be where he's best long term.I suppose the thing I'm fearful of is the D'Arcy/Earls combo,it's defensively average and creatively weak.Earls isn't going to get a chance to show off his finishing at 13 because D'Arcy won't create anything for him and our wingers will be inside 2 centres who don't create anything so things just get worse.