Luke Fitzgerald and Keith Earls.

First topic message reminder :

So with Luke back to his best, and showing just why he was so highly rated when he first came on the scene, he has to be one of the first names on both Leinster and Ireland's team sheet. The question is, where does he play? He has played everywhere from 11-15, and has stated himself his favourite position would be 15. However, he did not do well there during the 6 nations (however, could this be down to bad form in general?). Currently he is playing on the wing.

Then we have Keith Earls, another talented player. He is very dangerous, with more natural pace than Fitz, except he probably isn't just as creative, or as good a distributor. He is definitely a better finisher though, as he shown plenty of times during the RWC. He also has played everywhere from 11-15. Currently he is playing 13.

So here we have the situation of 2 very talented players, who are both utility backs, and possibly haven't selected their best position. Many people think they are both wingers, however Fitz may not have the raw pace needed. Earls to me looks like a definite back 3 player, yet some think his best position might be 13.

My solution would be to swap their positions, put Earls back on the wing for Munster, and move Fitz to 13 for Leinster. I think this will be both of their best positions. I am sure many will disagree with this though, so my question is where will they feature for both province and country?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Thomond wrote:If you saw Fitz on Saturday you might think differently. Stoddart would have more than likely the first choice 15 for Wales if not for injury.

What you've done there is:

a) Presume I didn't see the match
b) Think 1 good try has rocketed him into Lions contention or something.

He scored 2 and was disallowed one. That is funny, because you answered part a) yourself

Only 1 good one.

In my opinion.

Club player at best

Did you actually watch the match though?

Fitz also created one for Sexton. His 2nd was great but he took his first well. 4 minutes into this video for the first and 5:20 or so for the 2nd. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69xdh1p7Mr8

SecretFly wrote:...hate to bring it up, folks, but mention Earls and Fitz as much as you want - merits, demerits, what-have-you. But what will dictate success for either, if selected, and for all, when selected! - is the model, the style, the design.

If Ireland plays to the strength of their ever growing collection of backs candidates, then those two can shine. If the style curtails the skills they bring, they will again look ordinary at International level. It really isn't about individuals, it's about coaching.

Over to you DOD

Regardless of the opinions expressed Earls will play centre because he is the best we have in that position and he will play OC for Munster from now on and Fitz is back on form and looking good on the wing (which is great as he is a class player).

Regardless of the multiple orgasms in D4 last weekend when you are playing a team as inept as Bath it would have made the Young Munster front row from 1990 look like world beating backs. There is a big difference at intl level which is why Sexton goes from being good to shocking depending on who he is playing. Having said that Gaffney was not great as a backs coach and Less Kiss is taking on that responsibility for the 6ns. Even though some of the backplay in the world cup was very good its still the case that forwards win matches and backs by how much. We didnt win against wales for example because we lacked the ability to dominate wales up front and our much vaunted back row came off second best.

It will be interesting for sure to see what happens in the 6ns with our back play, but if you like watching stylish open rugby regardless of the result stick to the barbarians.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Did you actually watch the match though?

Yes. Fitzgerald had a very good game.

Only 1 good one?

For his first one he came off his wing and ran a great support line. Suppose all he had to do was have serious gas to outpace the Bath fullback, but he was in the right place at the right time. Like all good wingers should be. His second was classy and, I presume, not in question. Incidentally, what about the try that was disallowed? Would have been the best score of the game.

Hmmmm, let me see...which one will I take?? I like the ones with hazelnuts in..and flat round toffee ones..... but today I think I'll try Stylish Open Rugby with a juicy Result in the middle....yummmmm.

It was a very classy performance from Fitzgerald. Looks like he's reacted brilliantly to not being selected for the RWC. Same as Bowe 4 years ago. He'll never have a bigger disappointment in his career. To bounce back so quickly suggest he is mentally strong and you have to be optimistic about his future.

He's also stopped mouthing off in the media about what position he wants to play in. Which is good. As of now his best position is 11. He hasn't convinced at 15 or 12. He doesn't play 13 for Leinster so I don't see how we can have any confidence throwing him in there at test level.

The centre is tricky for Ireland now. We have to replace a very experienced duo very soon. We have lots of potential options, but it's gonna be a case of finding the best combo while still winning games. The good news is it's the only area where we we need new blood imminently. Ireland should be getting Sexton on the ball as much as possible though. That's what Leinster do. The more times he touches the ball the more tries Leinster score.

Earls probably will play 13. Not many people are convinced he's got all the skills to be a well rounded centre. Add in the fact that he's already our most dangerous winger and there's not to much support for the idea of him at 13 on this forum anyway.

Wow, you can’t just drop “regardless of result” into the sentence and expect it to go by unnoticed. Who said anything about regardless of result? We’re top of the league and number 1 seeds in the HC at the moment, results are grand.

If both these players are on form they are both international class players.
Not saying they are (WORLD class)players but certanly international class players.

Earls is a far better centre than he is a full back/wing.

Fitzgreald is a far better wing than he is a centre/full back.

Earls will probably be playing centre for Ireland come 6ns.

Fitzgerald will probably be on one wing with Bowe on the other and Trimble on the bench. That is just my personal opinion.

majesticimperialman wrote:If both these players are on form they are both international class players.
Not saying they are (WORLD class)players but certanly international class players.

Earls is a far better centre than he is a full back/wing.

Fitzgreald is a far better wing than he is a centre/full back.

Earls will probably be playing centre for Ireland come 6ns.

Fitzgerald will probably be on one wing with Bowe on the other and Trimble on the bench. That is just my personal opinion.

I would love to know why you think this though. Why do you think Earls is a better centre, and why do you think Fitz is a better wing?

I'm surprised about Earls, Fitz not so. Earls butchered a 3 on 1 on Sunday. A centre doesn't do that. A winger does.

It isn't good for any professional player to be butchering tries, but for a centre that is unacceptable.

Thomond wrote:I'm surprised about Earls, Fitz not so. Earls butchered a 3 on 1 on Sunday. A centre doesn't do that. A winger does.

He is not the only centre to ever have done that..He also made a great outside break and got Zebo away on one occasion so not sure what your point is.

Majestic you have it spot on. Earls primary position is centre and it is where he played all his IReland A games and is where he switches to for Ireland when BOD or Darcy go off. For both Ireland A and Ireland he has played quite well there and scored from there as well. He is also better than anything we have at the moment and taking the Munster situation into account it is where he will play from now on.

Paddy Wallace butchered a certain try in Wales v Ireland when he didn't want to pass to Keith Earls. Should he play winger too?

red_stag wrote:Paddy Wallace butchered a certain try in Wales v Ireland when he didn't want to pass to Keith Earls. Should he play winger too?

In no way was that a certain try.

O'Brien was the funniest butcherer in the first game v Bath. I think he had a 14 man overlap.

red_stag wrote:Paddy Wallace butchered a certain try in Wales v Ireland when he didn't want to pass to Keith Earls. Should he play winger too?

I am sure RS if you looked back through the last 10 years you would find BOD did the same or an outside half who miscued a kick or a second row who dropped a ball from a kickoff or a full back who knocked on a garryowen.

For me, Earls has two things that are better than any other Irish player available. His finishing ability, and his pace. He is a very dangerous player. Now, where would a player that fits that description fit best? To me the answer is definitely wing, or maybe as a counter attacking full back if his defensive game was up to it. He hasn't the distribution/creativity/running style suited for centre.

No, he shouldn't. Paddy Wallace has proved he has a rugby brain numerous times. You can't teach that. Does Earls have one? Earls has never wowed me with a great chip or some deft passing whereas Wallace has shown he is capable of it. He is a decent centre but I don't see him ever being a top calibre one. I will back him if he plays centre no question but I think his skills are best utilised elsewhere. The guy finishes and takes chances but wouldn't be the biggest playmaker. His defence there might also be questionable,He got taken to school by Tuiliagi like! He will need a month or two to get back into things there he hasn't played there on a regular basis for well over a year and a half

DOD wrote:Earls primary position is centre and it is where he played all his IReland A games and is where he switches to for Ireland when BOD or Darcy go off. For both Ireland A and Ireland he has played quite well there and scored from there as well. He is also better than anything we have at the moment and taking the Munster situation into account it is where he will play from now on.

You're making a good case DOD but I reserve judgement. It's true if hes playing there for Munster that's a big plus for him. A lot of us who aren't sure about him in the centre are saying he "doesn't have the brain" to be a top centre. I'm just wondering are we saying this while subconsciously thinking "compared to O'Driscoll". Because none of our potential 13's will have the vision and intelligence of O'Driscoll.

But I think Bowe is our next best when it comes to how cleverly he plays the game.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:For me, Earls has two things that are better than any other Irish player available. His finishing ability, and his pace.

Zebo looks faster.

There is so much more to a wingers game than being 15 yards from the opposition try line.

Yet the main thing you would generally want with a winger is their ability to score tries.. no? And since Earls is our best finisher, and scored the most tries during the RWC, you would think that he fits that criteria.

Also disagree that Zebo looks faster.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yet the main thing you would generally want with a winger is their ability to score tries.. no? .

Why base it around 1 thing of many?

Neither of the best finishing wingers in Wales can get in the Wales squad - mainly because they are rubbish at everyhting else.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Also disagree that Zebo looks faster.

He looks much, much faster. Which doest' t mean he's a quality winger. In fact he looks quite a poor player.

Shane Williams is not your best finisher? I would have said he was. Zebo is great going forward he has the ability to make guys miss. Positioning is a bit of a problem but he is only 21 so plenty time to improve.

Thomond wrote:Shane Williams is not your best finisher? I would have said he was. Zebo is great going forward he has the ability to make guys miss. Positioning is a bit of a problem but he is only 21 so plenty time to improve.

Shane Williams has retired from test rugby.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

DOD wrote:Earls primary position is centre and it is where he played all his IReland A games and is where he switches to for Ireland when BOD or Darcy go off. For both Ireland A and Ireland he has played quite well there and scored from there as well. He is also better than anything we have at the moment and taking the Munster situation into account it is where he will play from now on.

You're making a good case DOD but I reserve judgement. It's true if hes playing there for Munster that's a big plus for him. A lot of us who aren't sure about him in the centre are saying he "doesn't have the brain" to be a top centre. I'm just wondering are we saying this while subconsciously thinking "compared to O'Driscoll". Because none of our potential 13's will have the vision and intelligence of O'Driscoll.

But I think Bowe is our next best when it comes to how cleverly he plays the game.

I agree about the BOD thing but who can remember with BOD that when he started out for example his passing was poor and he used to shovel a lot or get his technique wrong. Sometimes watching BOD and Shaggy playing centre for Leinster was a stream of loopy passes. Difference is he worked hard on it and his passing is great. Initially his tackling ability was questioned due to his size, his kicking game etc etc.

At this time Earls is our best bet and will be good to see him get a chance.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Also disagree that Zebo looks faster.

He looks much, much faster. Which doest' t mean he's a quality winger. In fact he looks quite a poor player.

Zebo? You make very trigger happy decisions there, Chunky. You probably didn't know the guy six weeks ago.

Williams was in the last test squad though was he not? Who would you class as the best finishers?

red_stag wrote:Paddy Wallace butchered a certain try in Wales v Ireland when he didn't want to pass to Keith Earls. Should he play winger too?

The difference is that Wallace actually thought about passing but took the descision to cut back inside. Earls didn't even look to see the men outside and it was a far more clear cut chance and all he had to do was straighten and give. Wallace had a 2 on 1 near the touchline with 80min on the clock and covering defenders coming across and split seconds to make a call. The two scenarios are simply not comparable.

SecretFly wrote:
Zebo? You make very trigger happy decisions there, Chunky. You probably didn't know the guy six weeks ago.

Yeah in fairness I'm only basing it on his recent performances. All I'm saying is he needs to vastly improve if he wants to make it anything other than league level. He's young enough though.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Also disagree that Zebo looks faster.

He looks much, much faster. Which doest' t mean he's a quality winger. In fact he looks quite a poor player.

You talk some rubbish, chunky, no offence..

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Zebo? You make very trigger happy decisions there, Chunky. You probably didn't know the guy six weeks ago.

Yeah in fairness I'm only basing it on his recent performances. All I'm saying is he needs to vastly improve if he wants to make it anything other than league level. He's young enough though.

And pull his socks up - as one irritated old TV pundit said of Fionn Carr at one stage. This is union, lads *cough, splutter, dignified frown*

Thomond wrote:Williams was in the last test squad though was he not? Who would you class as the best finishers?

My point, again missed is that:

Tom James, Aled Brew, Richard Fussell have very good try scoring records but unfortrunately they are not brilliant rugby players.

Just because you score tries or can finish well - it doesn't mean you are right for test rugby.

Now similarly, Earls, is not a good defender. I'm sure the Irish contingent will shoot me down as it seems you are unable to criticise their players here. But it's just my opinion.

And you say not to base it on 1 thing.. well you are hardly going to pick a winger for their tackling ability, or their ability to scrum/jump in the line-out are you? A winger is specifically chosen to score tries and put points on the board. You want them to be good finishers, and they almost always have the top try scoring records. Why are you even trying to argue against that?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Also disagree that Zebo looks faster.

He looks much, much faster. Which doest' t mean he's a quality winger. In fact he looks quite a poor player.

You talk some rubbish, chunky, no offence..

I've seen enough of your posts not to take any offence.

He has had problems there particularly when he plays centre. I would agree with you.

roddersm wrote:

red_stag wrote:Paddy Wallace butchered a certain try in Wales v Ireland when he didn't want to pass to Keith Earls. Should he play winger too?

The difference is that Wallace actually thought about passing but took the descision to cut back inside. Earls didn't even look to see the men outside and it was a far more clear cut chance and all he had to do was straighten and give. Wallace had a 2 on 1 near the touchline with 80min on the clock and covering defenders coming across and split seconds to make a call. The two scenarios are simply not comparable.

The fact that he looked up and didnt pass to a better placed teammate might be seen as even worse.

Regardless lots of players back themselves and sometimes fail. Not sure if Earls one misdemeanour in a Munster game indicates how he will play as a centre when overall he had a decent game on his first back from injury....

Rory_Gallagher wrote: A winger is specifically chosen to score tries and put points on the board?

[bangs head on the table numerous times/]

You are allowed to criticise players as if you read, you will see many say Earls doesn't have the distribution skills needed for centre. You are talking rubbish though, and basing your opinions on nothing. Fitz scores 2 tries and disallows one and you turn that into "scoring 1 good try doesn't make you a good player".

Also you mention James, Brew and Fussell, but have they scored 5 tries in a world cup yet? No.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote: A winger is specifically chosen to score tries and put points on the board?

[bangs head on the table numerous times/]

Yes, Shane Williams was always selected for his tackling ability.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Also you mention James, Brew and Fussell, but have they scored 5 tries in a world cup yet? No.

Because they are Poopie. You idiot.

Chunky tries are not the be all and end all of wing player ?
Interestingly a Welsh posters was using Shane's try scoring record on another thread to show me that his try scoring record made him the greatest Welsh winger of all time - I didn't agree.

No harm to you but you have today have posted that others know about the Welsh organizational set up - reading you posts here I am beginning to think the same applies to yourself with regard to the attributes of the Irish backs

Ask Matt Banahan about his tackling ability Rory!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You are allowed to criticise players as if you read.

Thank you lord Internet.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Tom James, Aled Brew, Richard Fussell have very good try scoring records but unfortrunately they are not brilliant rugby players.

Just because you score tries or can finish well - it doesn't mean you are right for test rugby.

I'm with Chunky on that one. Thats why right now Fitzgerald and Trimble are probably our best wingers, they have the all round game. I haven't watched Bowe much since the RWC but when hes on form he trumps the lot. Horgan obviously when fit is a class act too.

Earls is a really good finisher and broken field runner but I definitely wouldn't say he is our best winger or finisher.

I think he is a very good tackler though and has the potential to be our best back but the all round game is not there yet.

geoff998rugby wrote:Chunky tries are not the be all and end all of wing player ?
Interestingly a Welsh posters was using Shane's try scoring record on another thread to show me that his try scoring record made him the greatest Welsh winger of all time - I didn't agree.

No harm to you but you have today have posted that others know about the Welsh organizational set up - reading you posts here I am beginning to think the same applies to yourself with regard to the attributes of the Irish backs

Good on you for having an opinion. I respect that.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Also you mention James, Brew and Fussell, but have they scored 5 tries in a world cup yet? No.

Because they are Poopie. You idiot.

Yet you said they are the best finishing wingers in your country. They haven't done it on the world stage though, so how can you say they are the best finishers? Earls scored 5 tries in a RWC. THat is why he is the best finisher we have on our team, and why he would be best suited to playing wing. Those players you list have never set the world alight. So why compare them to the likes of Earls?