Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

How in the name of jeysus does the majority of revenue come from the national team?

Are we to believe that Ireland (playing maybe 8/9 home games a year) bring in more than 4 provinces playing a minimum of 14 home games a year each?
Plus the provinces receive more money through television rights? Or is it that the IRFU take all of the money generated by the provinces and then dish it back out to them?! bizarre.

Question: 4 Triple Crowns, 1 Six Nations, 1 Grandslam, 4 Heineken Cups and 4 Celtic Leagues in 7 years, what was broken and why did you think it needed fixing?

Answer: Not about fix, symbiotic relationship provinces & Int team, no success for 1 without other. Plan 4 future success.



Question: Do you think that the irish teams in the heineken/pro12 will have a disadvantage due to this new rule?

Answer: No, still will have important overseas players in squads, just more thought on positions and irish successors



Question: who will decide which province can have a NIE in each position if conflict? eg Mun & Uls both have NIE tighthead.

Answer: IRFU and provincial teams will work together, but ultimate decision needs to favour Ireland team & player dev.



Questions: Have the @irfurugby checked fora like @boards_ie and @606v2rugby for fans reaction and seen the good points against #irfusuccession?

Answer: This (Twitter) is an open forum here and are listening to peoples concerns and q's

Mickado wrote:How in the name of jeysus does the majority of revenue come from the national team?

Charing 5 grand a ticket!

Notch wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Any news on how the 12.30 Q&A went?

Complete farce, an own goal for the IRFU- would have been better not to have a Q&A than to ignore all the hard questions and give semi-irrelevant marketing blurb style answers to the rest.

Agree. From IRFU point of view it was ingenious as Twitter limits the scope of debate due to a max number of words .

I would want this to be counterbalanced in some way with a positive for the provinces. For example, if they announced this and then announced that we were pulling out of the Lions that would be a positive- after the last Lions tour the Irish internationals weren't available for the first five rounds of the Magners League!

Notch I really hope you aren't serious that you'd see disbanding the Lions as a positive.

The players love playing for the Lions. It'd annoy them even more. Then they'd really see how the IRFU believe they are just a commodity.

where can you view the QandA?

Mickado wrote:How in the name of jeysus does the majority of revenue come from the national team?

Are we to believe that Ireland (playing maybe 8/9 home games a year) bring in more than 4 provinces playing a minimum of 14 home games a year each?
Plus the provinces receive more money through television rights? Or is it that the IRFU take all of the money generated by the provinces and then dish it back out to them?! bizarre.

sorry dudes should have provided a link, it was actually the IT: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2011/1222/1224309376946.html


"IRFU chief executive Philip Browne stressed that the aspirations of the provinces and national teams were interdependent in that the new guidelines were in place to try and find the best way to realise those aspirations.

He also explored the financial implications. “Last year the IRFU had an income of €69 million, (of which) 94 per cent comes from the professional game and of that 81 per cent or €55 million of income is generated by the activities of the national team.

“The national team costs about 14 per cent in expenditure but the provincial game probably accounts for 41 per cent of our expenditure. The provincial teams are subvented and subsidised by the activities of the national team. You can’t have one without the other."

greybeard wrote:The players love playing for the Lions. It'd annoy them even more. Then they'd really see how the IRFU believe they are just a commodity.

Agree entirely.

Kingshu its on the IRFU Twitter page. You may as well not view it.

In a nutshell it is being rebranded as a "succession plan". The one question that summed up the proposal is WHY???

The answer - because Ireland is not developing props and this could happen with other positions in the future.

I'm no brianiac, but maybe a plan to improve our 'succession' at prop only might be a better idea. And it can be used as a dry run for any other positions we may one day have a problem with.

So if the IRFU earned €69 and 41% of that was given to the provinces and there are 4 provinces am I right in saying that each province is given €7,072,500 every single year. Thats a big cash boost.

greybeard wrote:I'm no brianiac, but maybe a plan to improve our 'succession' at prop only might be a better idea. And it can be used as a dry run for any other positions we may one day have a problem with.

Once again I agree. This seems to be a hastily thought out plan with far reaching consequences. I was also glad to see someone on Twitter told IRFU it was illegal (which they disputed)

I disagree Rodders. i think the IRFU are underestimating how much the fans care about the provinces. International games are a rare treat for me whereas i go to Ravenhill all the time. Now i would love for Ireland to be world beaters but in reality it will not happen without strong provinces.

If we take a look at Leinster team that won the heineken.

Healy
Strauss (now challenged by Cronin)
Ross
Hines - gone and Toner/ Browne have had plenty of gametime
Cullen
McLaughlin
SOB
Heaslip
Reddan
Sexton
Fitz
D'arcy
BOD
Horgan
Nacewa (still about)

1 player in 15 who is potentially holding back a youngster.

Against the Dragons earlier this season we had a backline of

Marshall
Jackson
Gilroy
Marshall
Spence
Whitten
Payne??

Now from 10-13 that is part of a backline i would love to see at Ulster but without experience to guide them they were very easily nullified. THis is why i dont agree with all the criticism about the Terblanche signing.

If the IRFU cant see the difference Johan Muller has made to Dan Tuohys game then they have no business being involved in rugby. Similarly Pienaar and Marshall. I dont see why Terblanche will be different.

We have exceptional players coming through and some of them can learn from our guys like Nagle and POC but the reality is youngsters need the example set by these NIQ's. The academies are producing. They are working but if the IRFU arent going to trust the provinces to bring through this talent then what is the point in provincial management at all.

Munster are producing 2nd rows
Leinster are producing all over with the exception of 2nd row perhaps
Ulster are producing centres, backs, to a degree props but are short 2nd row/backrow.
Forgive my ignorance if i have left any areas out but they seem pretty strong there. Ulsters young guns in the backline are all being kept out by IQ players by the way.

Just to throw my opinion in here guys as a neutral, then will leave you to it - seems absolutely bonkers to me!

Well, I'm not talking about disbanding the Lions just ending Irelands involvement with them. But I am serious.

Ultimately it adds to an already over crowded test calendar and the injury rate on these tours is very high. Now the IRFU give players an extended holiday after Lions tours that means they start pre-season much later. The upshot is that international players are not available for their province, which is a side effect of international rugby in Ireland anyway.

I'm just wondering how we are meant to get people into rugby if we have a two-tier system like this- I mean actually going to games. People pay to see the big names, and even more if the big names are local like Stephen Ferris, Paul O'Connell and Brian O'Driscoll. Right now I think we have a good balance between having these players play, resting them for test matches and ensuring they peak for the Heineken Cup and this gives their understudies the much need opportunity. But in Lions years they play much less and with the new much longer summer tours those problems will occur every year!

Something's gotta give, and its going to be the amount of time these guys spend on the pitch in the Pro 12. I'd much rather be able to pay to see our homegrown players show their wares on our doorstep than on the other side of the world regardless of what colour shirt they are wearing.

I thought the IRFU already had the power to veto NIQ signings hence Ulster weren't allowed to sign a 10?

Theres something more to this than meets the eye...its like that Father Ted episode were Ireland wanted to lose the Eurovision because it cost too much to host it.....maybe the IRFU don't want the provinces reaching the KO stages of the HEC or Rabo anymore so they can save on the travel costs?.....

Standulstermen wrote:I disagree Rodders.

Disagree with what?...I didn't say anything? I agree with everything you've posted.

red_stag wrote:So if the IRFU earned €69 and 41% of that was given to the provinces and there are 4 provinces am I right in saying that each province is given €7,072,500 every single year. Thats a big cash boost.

They made €69m (before or after tax... who knows), and the provinces account for 41% of expenditure.

They didn't say that their expenditure was €69m.

Ah of course

Basically the National side generates 55m which equates to 81% of the income which comes from the pro game, which in turn is 94% of all IRFU income or 69m.

That means of the 94% generated from the pro game only 19% comes from the provinces but 41% of all expenditure goes to the provinces, whereas only 14% goes on the National side.

In summary then the provinces run at a hefty loss for the IRFU whereas the National side turns over a decent profit....

The IRFU are hanging this decision on their opinion that the national team and provincial teams have a symbiotic relationship. So what’s good for one must be good for the other. But that’s just not true.

They should be looking to improve the position of the provinces with caveats around player acquisition and retention. But they’re just going to scare off any half decent foreign players. We’ll just have more players available to the national side of a lower standard.

I actually think the IRFU have got their finger on the pulse. Provincial rugby is harming the national game financially. Why would someone go to see France play in the Aviva for €80 when they can see Leinster v Toulouse there for half that price. The main issue is that Leinster have probably become too successful - it didn't matter much that Ulster & Munster had such large support - most of the ticket sales for Irish internationals would have been in the Dublin area.

Much and all it has been a pleasure to watch Nacewa, Douggie, Rocky, Pienaar & co playing for the Irish provinces, all of them (maybe with the exception of Elsom) have been blocking the development of other players. The renewal of Douggie & Nacewa's contracts would be very questionable anyway in 2013 as they are getting on a bit. Dougie would be blocking Zebo, Nacewa is blocking Fionn Carr, Dave Kearney etc. etc. If Pienaar could move to 10, I think he should be kept.

Extract from Irish Indo today which best illustrates the problem:

An hour after Leinster won their first Heineken Cup final in 2009, Jonny Sexton poured his heart out in the mixed zone and told us just how close he had been to packing in his career with the province.

Six months earlier, he'd had a shocker in a league game against Glasgow and was summarily replaced against Castres after an hour of their Heineken Cup pool game by a re-signed veteran out-half, Australian David Holwell.

With two other foreign imports, Felipe Contepomi and Isa Nacewa, due to return to the busy out-half position, Sexton would speak about the "depressing" nature of his position with a club to which he dearly wanted to belong.

Despite his desire to remain with Leinster, he spoke of how he contemplated leaving Ireland in order to seek opportunities. Later, he would credit Declan Kidney's intervention in selecting him for an Ireland 'A' game as a significant springboard to renewing his confidence.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/pressure-now-on-academies-to-produce-goods-2971183.html

The fact that Sexton didn't go, actually saved Leinster a packet bringing in another new outhalf.

Micado - I doubt you will be seeing Nagle at Leinster (unless he is not up to it). More likely Mick O'Driscoll.

It looks like a purely business decision to me, up until now there's been a healthy balance between provincial and national success....however the IRFU have obviously come to the conclusion that the National team is far more profitable and lucrative, so its a case of bollix to the provinces....stuff the HEC, feck off and find some props for Ireland...

So €69 is the income. And the national team is 14% of expenditure, but the provinces account for 41% of expenditure. Can some economically minded person explain to me why of our total expenditure only 55% is going on national and provincial teams? I presume that expenditure means the amount we spend in total, so what do we spend the other 45% on?

Mick I'd say a fair bit goes on things like the clubs, staff wages, development officers, grass roots, marketing, tag comps etc.?

Ignore, replied to a misread post

I'd guess the 45% of it goes to the All Ireand league, and down through the clubs etc.

actually scrap that of the 40% left i'd say 35% goes to paying for NLR and 10% goes to the clubs in Ireland.

Mickado wrote:So €69 is the income. And the national team is 14% of expenditure, but the provinces account for 41% of expenditure. Can some economically minded person explain to me why of our total expenditure only 55% is going on national and provincial teams? I presume that expenditure means the amount we spend in total, so what do we spend the other 45% on?

Feicing expensive prawn sandwiches, lads

Its very clear and whether you like it or not is irrelevent. The Provincial branches are part of the IRFU which is centrally controlled. The branches do not have the freedom being attributed to them. These are not clubs although that is what people seem to think.

It is clear that the IRFU see player development within the branch academies as being the primary need going forward. It is felt that with the money being spent on academies there is a possibility that the players coming through will not get game time due to a possible block with Non irish players.

Its not the club system they have in England and France thankfully.

DOD wrote:Its not the club system they have in England and France thankfully.

Yes to be fair thats very true.

I'd have no problem with that DOD, if they just came out and said it.

I like our system, I like the fact that we're have such a well controlled setup. But the plan as it stands, as I understand it, isn't realistic.

Yes but DOD these changes are presuming that signing overseas players and having strong provinces and developing players are always mutually exclusive.

Are Zebo and Earls better for playing with Howlett? Has Pienaar helped Paul Marhall and Humphreys? Has Muller helped Touhy? What about Kearney and Nacewa or Sexton and Contepomi or Toner and Hines?

In all these cases I'd say the Irish players have benefitted hugely from playing and training with their overseas teammates and there are many other examples.

This isn't the black and white scenario that the IRFU are making it out to be i.e. less NIEs = a better National side.

The Johnny Sexton article is all very well and good, but the bottom line is: did he go?

The answer is no, he didn't. He wasn't lost to Irish rugby. He's now first choice 10 for Leinster and Ireland (arguably). He got discouraged, he got a chance, he took it. Given fifteen minutes, you could re-write that article as a celebratory peice explaining how well the system currently works.

I understand the IRFU viewpoint that the Provinces cost money th enational team generate it,

From there figures they say how much came into the IRFU, and how much the IRFU gave the Provinces, but the H-cup/Pro 12 TV money, sponsorship and prize money goes to the IRFU are they conting these as Povince generated?

Also the forget in saying that the Provinces cost money, that its developing player, take David Wallace for example (a player near the end of his career) Ireland caps 72, Munster Caps over 200 and thats not counting Munster acadamy and 'A' teams when he was young. This means to become the player he is he's had to play well over twice as much for Munster as for Ireland meaning Munster would have well over twice the costs, and for every 3 Wallaces Munster produce they invest in 3 players that don't make it. So it stands to reason that the Provinces are going to cost more and make less profit.

I think this profit thing is a bit of a red herring.

We always knew that they were reducing the NIQ quote to 4+1.

So between the 3 provinces they will have 12 NIQ and 3 Project Players. That was always the plan as I understand it.

However it is now project specific which according to IRFU is born out of our failure to develop props, to rectify this and to stop it happening again.

Don Alfonso wrote:The Johnny Sexton article is all very well and good, but the bottom line is: did he go?

The answer is no, he didn't. He wasn't lost to Irish rugby. He's now first choice 10 for Leinster and Ireland (arguably). He got discouraged, he got a chance, he took it. Given fifteen minutes, you could re-write that article as a celebratory peice explaining how well the system currently works.

Chances are he might not have got much of a chance to succeed abroad as his confidence would have been so shot (bear in mind Leinster had 3 NIQ OHs ahead of him, including a very aging Horwell and neither Contempomi or Nacewa were any great shakes at OH).

red_stag wrote:I think this profit thing is a bit of a red herring.

We always knew that they were reducing the NIQ quote to 4+1.

So between the 3 provinces they will have 12 NIQ and 3 Project Players. That was always the plan as I understand it.

However it is now project specific which according to IRFU is born out of our failure to develop props, to rectify this and to stop it happening again.

See I recon this may be down to the IRFU's own failing they shouldn't have allowed all 4 provinces to sign tighthead props. They hould have seen the problem coming and said no more NIQ players at prop. This would have forced the development of Props without the nonsense we have now. This is the way they were suppose to work. In future we may have a problem at Lock so it would make sence to limit the NIQ locks in Ireland for the next few years. All the IRFU have to do is keep an eye on the acamadies and see where future problems may lie and act accordingly. Like the did at outhalf when Ulster weren't allowed to sign a NIQ player there, now we have Sexton, RoG, Humph, Keatley and NoC all playing, it was working if the IRFU kept their eye onm the ball.

greybeard wrote:I'd have no problem with that DOD, if they just came out and said it.

I like our system, I like the fact that we're have such a well controlled setup. But the plan as it stands, as I understand it, isn't realistic.

In the article I read this is what Browne is saying. Everyone forgets that Ulster first, Munster and Leinster developed their teams without major influx of foreigners. This puts a bit more thought and management into the system and still allows for the Elsoms, Howletts of this world.

Why have the IRFU come out with this?

a) Financial. Maybe wages are to high. Maybe they're looking at the repayments on Lansdowne and thinking, "this is gonna be hard to pay off". I'm sure all the contracts on construction were signed during the height of the boom and were very costly. If they simply have to make cuts to remain solvent in the future then they have to make cuts and provinces are less lucrative so are bearing the brunt.

b) A major shift to prioritize the national side. The provinces aren't producing enough props. Botha and Afoa will prevent Irish props from getting games. Not so long ago we had a similar shortage of flyhalfs. The same could happen again with other positions. The IRFU want Irish players playing and if that means less HEC success then so be it.

c) The IRFU genuinely believe we can be the New Zealand of Europe and have entirely home grown squads and still dominate the Heineken Cup, while simultaneously creating formidable depth in the national team. If so, that's some admirable confidence and optimism. Is this plan based on a letter written to them by Gibson?

d) A little bit from a, b and c

red_stag wrote:I think this profit thing is a bit of a red herring.

We always knew that they were reducing the NIQ quote to 4+1.

So between the 3 provinces they will have 12 NIQ and 3 Project Players. That was always the plan as I understand it.

However it is now project specific which according to IRFU is born out of our failure to develop props, to rectify this and to stop it happening again.

I think that this club/province loyalty/competition among the fans might also be an issue (extreme example of the kind of thing I'm thinking of is Liverpool/Man Utd fans have no time for their national team). The clubs could get bigger than the country. The general public can't bring themselves to support the national team because there are too many from other provinces, too few from their province. As an example, how much Irish interest would there be in the Lions if there were no players in the test team?

Notch, the IRFU got £1m for their involvement in the Lions (each Union involved gets that - its not dependent on how many players that are supplied).

OK feic it I've decided to embrace this change. Make the most of a bad situation. Look on bright side etc.

Everyone's aware of the prop problem. The IRFU can simply refuse to sanction some NIE contracts when they feel that a similar issue is going to arise. They can be a bit more hands-on, and manage it a bit more; put their foot down. These rules are nonsense, and will result in a lot more mediocre IE players getting big wages as first-choice players, and the provinces' fortunes suffering.

And it's worth bearing in mind that a couple of seasons ago Ulster were scrapping it out with Connacht at the bottom of the league. Imagine this situation - Ulster and Munster have IE flyhalves. Leinster have an NIE flyhalf. So do Connacht, who are exempt from these rules. Ulster slide down the table – no young Irish players, uncertain of their playing future, want to come here from other provinces and surrender that year’s tax rebate. Connacht come higher than us in the league. We have one IE flyhalf playing HEC rugby. And a back-up playing in the Amlin.

And Sin - I genuinely don't understand your point. He didn't go anywhere. He stayed, and now everyone loves him in Leinster (as an Ulsterman, his square head is a bit too weird for me to embrace him fully). Is the point that our curent system is a failure because poor Johnny felt a bit down about his chances at some point? Kidney swept in, restored his confidence with Ireland A. The ever-vigilant IRFU saved him. He didn't fall trhough the cracks.

DOD wrote:

greybeard wrote:I'd have no problem with that DOD, if they just came out and said it.

I like our system, I like the fact that we're have such a well controlled setup. But the plan as it stands, as I understand it, isn't realistic.

In the article I read this is what Browne is saying. Everyone forgets that Ulster first, Munster and Leinster developed their teams without major influx of foreigners. This puts a bit more thought and management into the system and still allows for the Elsoms, Howletts of this world.

I wonder would Tommy Bowe have come back to Ireland when his contract was up for renewal with the Os if neither Howlett or Nacewa were around?

(as an Ulsterman, his square head is a bit too weird for me to embrace him fully

Sin é wrote:I'm thinking of is Liverpool/Man Utd fans have no time for their national team

Thats because most Liverpool/ Man utd fans are Irish! .....

Dont have time to read through the entire thread so apologies if I'm repeating what someone has already said.

I believe the IRFUs heart is in the right place but they've gone about three steps further than they need to have done to achieve their desired goals. It's as though they want to be the polar opposite of their soccer counterparts the FAI who are more than happy to see young players go abroad for coaching while raking in the bucks for the national team, with the domestic league remaining in the gutter.

In many walks of life, success can be difficult to measure, but not in sport. Basically, if the IRFU change their system for the sake of the national team, the only thing that will make that change a success would be for the national team to do better on the pitch. In other words, if Ireland don't at very least win one Grand Slam from 2013-2016 AND get to the semifinals of RWC2015, they'll leave themselves open to challenge as to whether the policy was all worth it.

I'm not saying the national side can't achieve that, I just believe they have put unnecessary pressure on themselves with these measures. No amount of player management can guarantee success on the pitch, nor can it guarantee there won't be injuries to key players. And if the provinces' chances in the HCup/PRO12 are adversely affected in the meantime, they're going to have a pretty peed off set of fans on their hands, fans who have spent just enough hard-earned cash to watch Leinster, Munster & Ulster as they have to watch Ireland.

HarpinOnRugby wrote:
if Ireland don't at very least win one Grand Slam from 2013-2016 AND get to the semifinals of RWC2015, they'll leave themselves open to challenge as to whether the policy was all worth it.

Yes but the baffling and frustrating thing is that, under our current system, there is every chance we would have achieved both of these aims, maybe more.

On what basis are the IRFU blaming our failure to meet our national targets on the existing set up? Do they believe a lack of tight head props cost us the games against France and Wales in the 6N and against Wales in the RWC?

roddersm wrote:

HarpinOnRugby wrote:
if Ireland don't at very least win one Grand Slam from 2013-2016 AND get to the semifinals of RWC2015, they'll leave themselves open to challenge as to whether the policy was all worth it.

Yes but the baffling and frustrating thing is that, under our current system, there is every chance we would have achieved both of these aims, maybe more.

On what basis are the IRFU blaming our failure to meet our national targets on the existing set up? Do they believe a lack of tight head props cost us the games against France and Wales in the 6N and against Wales in the RWC?

The point is that they believe that the investment in the academies is not bringing on enough players or that there is a block in place and the investment isnt being realised.

DOD I know your a big believe in the Cork v Limerick internal rivalry (like myself) but I had a conversation with one of the "sports science" gurus that Munster use and he was saying that the separate training facilities is leading to poorer Munster academies and thats a big factor in so few Munster lads getting underage caps.