Changes to provincial teams player qualifications

First topic message reminder :

http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/25137.php

In short here's the juicy bits:

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*
- For the 2013/14 season and onwards, for any given position involving a contracted NIE player, a province will not be permitted to renew that NIE player contract or bring in a new NIE player into that same position in its squad.
- All future provincial injury replacement players must be eligible for selection for Ireland.
- All future provincial non-Irish eligible player contracts will be position specific.

* The Connacht professional side is external to this process as it has recently commenced a new programme of structural and performance development agreed with the IRFU.

Ok, to be honest I had to read that a few times before I could even understand it. And now that I've read it I'm asking myself if I really do understand it.

From what I can make out:

Point 1 states that if, for example, Ulster have an NIE scrum half, then Munster and Leinster must have IE scrum halves. Not just in the team, but the entire squad.

Correct me if I'm wrong. Is that what point 1 is saying? I'm having trouble reading it any other way. So on the plus side we will no longer have the situation where every prop on the island is NIE. Ok, that's good, I guess. Now... who gets to decide who is giving up their props? Who gets to keep the NIE one?

Point 2 states that once an NIE players contract is up, they're gone. And the next player in must be IE

Goodbye Douggie Howlett, nice to have known ya, now get lost. No new contracts.

Very stupid decision. Teams will either offer ludicrously long contracts to keep the likes of Howlett and Nacewa, or they'll offer normal contracts and either break the bank to get marquee players, or they'll make offers and get snubbed. In the end this policy is an incentive to go for uncapped foreign players who will become IE after 3 years, so if you offer them a 3 year contract as an NIE, as soon as their contract expires they are IE and can renew. This is strengthening the 'project player' approach, I don't like that. Fans love Nacewa, Pienaar and Howlett and the IRFU are biting off their nose to spite their face.

The IRFU seem to think all you ever need is an internationally capped NIE for a short contract and that's enough, the young lads will come through almost immediately after. Let's call this The Rocky Elsom effect. It comes with absolutely no guarantees.

Again with point 4, if contracts are given out on a position specific basis, who gets to decide which of two provinces, both in search of a centre, say, get to sign one once an agreement is made.

I find this who announcement badly thought out. The Rock effect was so positive the IRFU seem to be getting a bit too sure of themselves. Yes the point of the provinces is to feed the international team, but the provinces have been much more successful than the national team recently and this plan could put that in jeopardy.

Yeah DOD, I understand that. We know the IRFU want the best for the national team. But the Irish are also rabid fans of provincial rugby. We LOVE it. And we're shocked at the extent to which this will effect our beloved provinces.

The big question is who decides which province can sign a foreign player in a certain position and on what basis is the decision made? I think Ulster clearly need foreigners far more. Almost no Irish player will move to them from the Republic for whatever reason. Munster would be next in terms of the need for foreigners. Leinster are pretty much able to compete on both fronts without foreigners already. We'd miss Nacewa, but it really wouldn't be a catastrophic loss.

So will the IRFU base their decisions on these needs or on some other criteria? Will they let Leinster sign a foreign player of a certain position because they are Ireland's best chance of a Heineken Cup win?

The decision to hire a NIQ will be based on the criteria that only one is allowed per position across the provinces. How that works in practice will be interesting.

DOD wrote:
The point is that they believe that the investment in the academies is not bringing on enough players or that there is a block in place and the investment isnt being realised.

Yes I realise that but I believe they are wrong. Yes theres a shortage of props, particularly tightheads but thats not a reason to make such radical changes to the set up.

If you look at the U-20s RWC our forwards weren't particurly impressive. Do they expect the provinces to throw mediocre/average players in against World class ones in the HEC? Thats crazy

In most positions, especially the backs there is loads of talent and most are getting game time. This is a load of bollix.

[quote="DOD"][quote="roddersm"]

HarpinOnRugby wrote:

The point is that they believe that the investment in the academies is not bringing on enough players or that there is a block in place and the investment isnt being realised.

On these boards we've been giving ourselves a lot of praise at how well the acamadies have been producing talent, looks like we were wrong.

[quote="Kingshu"][quote="DOD"]

roddersm wrote:

HarpinOnRugby wrote:

The point is that they believe that the investment in the academies is not bringing on enough players or that there is a block in place and the investment isnt being realised.

On these boards we've been giving ourselves a lot of praise at how well the acamadies have been producing talent, looks like we were wrong.

I think it is that the IRFU feel that there is a block because of NIQ players not because we havent been producing. Look at Wales and the Scarlets where they brought through young players and fast tracked them. I think we are not throwing enough players into the senior system and this is a way to force the provinces hand. I kind of agree with that sentiment.

If the IRFU want to look at who is holding back the majority of the academy players, mostly its not the NIQ's but the older Irish guys like O'Driscoll, D'arcy, ROG, DOC, POC, Paddy Wallace, Tom Court, Mike Ross etc....who ironically enough the IRFU themselves mostly have all given central contracts to until 2013....

roddersm wrote:If the IRFU want to look at who is holding back the majority of the academy players, mostly its not the NIQ's but the older Irish guys like O'Driscoll, D'arcy, ROG, DOC, POC, Paddy Wallace, Tom Court, Mike Ross etc....who ironically enough the IRFU themselves have all given central contracts to until 2013....

I also agree with that, for example in Munster players like Zebo, POM, Nagle and a few others should have been playing far more regularly for the senior team...

DOD wrote:

I think it is that the IRFU feel that there is a block because of NIQ players not because we havent been producing. Look at Wales and the Scarlets where they brought through young players and fast tracked them. I think we are not throwing enough players into the senior system and this is a way to force the provinces hand. I kind of agree with that sentiment.

Yeah I can't really argue with the sentiment,it's just the way they've gone about implementing this seems overly complicated.I think if they had gone with reducing the NIQ quota to 4+1 then 2 more years 3+1 then 2 more years 2+1 and even further if the want that would be enough.They could also quietly veto any NIQ signings in positions where IQ players need gametime like both props and lock,I think this would have been just as easy to do without causing such a massive fuss.

DOD wrote:

roddersm wrote:If the IRFU want to look at who is holding back the majority of the academy players, mostly its not the NIQ's but the older Irish guys like O'Driscoll, D'arcy, ROG, DOC, POC, Paddy Wallace, Tom Court, Mike Ross etc....who ironically enough the IRFU themselves have all given central contracts to until 2013....

I also agree with that, for example in Munster players like Zebo, POM, Nagle and a few others should have been playing far more regularly for the senior team...

Exactly DOD and at Ulster Spence is only getting regular gametime right now because Wallace is injured and there Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson too...yet the IRFU have no problem extending Paddy Wallace's contract? Same with Tom Court and Paddy McCallistair...where's the concern for the academy investment there?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Yeah I can't really argue with the sentiment,it's just the way they've gone about implementing this seems overly complicated.I think if they had gone with reducing the NIQ quota to 4+1 then 2 more years 3+1 then 2 more years 2+1 and even further if the want that would be enough.They could also quietly veto any NIQ signings in positions where IQ players need gametime like both props and lock,I think this would have been just as easy to do without causing such a massive fuss.

But that would have been........ completely sensible!

I'm all for it. It's good news. We have the talent here. Let's use it. Foreign players should be selected carefully and should also fulfil a mentoring role when needed.

Basically it means that Ireland will always at least have two quality players for all positions something we always lack. The great thing about the Irfu is that the Irish team always comes first and long may it continue.

Listen to yesterdays rugby on off the ball podcast for all the details.

leinsterbaby wrote:I'm all for it. It's good news. We have the talent here. Let's use it. Foreign players should be selected carefully and should also fulfil a mentoring role when needed.

But you can't have two tighthead mentors helping young props in different provinces, so only one provinces young players get to benefit.

leinsterbaby wrote:
Basically it means that Ireland will always at least have two quality players for all positions something we always lack.

No guarantees on the quality leinsterbaby but we'll have more quantity I suppose.

That's fine as long as the right guy is getting mentored from an Irish perspective. Also i believe that there will be exceptions made in some circumstances.

roddersm wrote:If the IRFU want to look at who is holding back the majority of the academy players, mostly its not the NIQ's but the older Irish guys like O'Driscoll, D'arcy, ROG, DOC, POC, Paddy Wallace, Tom Court, Mike Ross etc....who ironically enough the IRFU themselves mostly have all given central contracts to until 2013....

This is a very good point. The NIQ players seem to be there to fill positions that the provinces are lacking anyway. And I feel that these players help with the development of the younger generation, a sort of master/apprentice situation. The younger player should fight for his place, not be given it on a plate.

What will happen if an Irish player retires from internationals but stays with his province? He might be IQ but he's NIE strictly speaking.

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:
Basically it means that Ireland will always at least have two quality players for all positions something we always lack.

No guarantees on the quality leinsterbaby but we'll have more quantity I suppose.

rodders, totally right - this new system no more guarantees two quality players than the old one, surely?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

roddersm wrote:If the IRFU want to look at who is holding back the majority of the academy players, mostly its not the NIQ's but the older Irish guys like O'Driscoll, D'arcy, ROG, DOC, POC, Paddy Wallace, Tom Court, Mike Ross etc....who ironically enough the IRFU themselves mostly have all given central contracts to until 2013....

This is a very good point. The NIQ players seem to be there to fill positions that the provinces are lacking anyway. And I feel that these players help with the development of the younger generation, a sort of master/apprentice situation. The younger player should fight for his place, not be given it on a plate.

Maybe the situation hasn't worked out so well up to now and its time to tighten it up. For example - Munster have had Halstead, Sammy and Mafi at inside centre since 2006. Munster have not produced an inside centre. Leinster have had Will Greenwood, Stan Wright, Ollie le Roux, CJ and god knows who else and haven't managed to produce a TH. Ross was behind Stan in Leinster. Ross might have been available a year earlier if that ruling would have applied back then. Since Simon Best was lost to illness/injury, Ulster have had BJ and now Afoa. If this ruling applied back then, Ulster might have been looking at Ross at the time of Best's illness. Even Tom Court could have been developed at TH (where the succession problems were) to help out the national team.

Doug Howlett was a nailed on starter for Munster - Simon Zebo was never going to get his chance at Heineken Cup rugby this season if Douggie was still around. As it is, he looks like he could make the grade.

Nacewa is blocking Carr & Kearney junior.

If Warwick hadn't moved to France, Keatley would not be making the bench in Munster and Munster were going to have a massive problem in 2 years time when ROG retires. As it is, he will be bedded into the team at least.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:
Basically it means that Ireland will always at least have two quality players for all positions something we always lack.

No guarantees on the quality leinsterbaby but we'll have more quantity I suppose.

rodders, totally right - this new system no more guarantees two quality players than the old one, surely?

If these rules were in place already Buckley would still be Munsters tighthead instead of Botha. And no matter how much game time he was getting, he wouldn't be getting any better at scrummaging, and like last year, he would eventually be exposed and Munster would be dumped out of the Heineken Cup.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:
Basically it means that Ireland will always at least have two quality players for all positions something we always lack.

No guarantees on the quality leinsterbaby but we'll have more quantity I suppose.

rodders, totally right - this new system no more guarantees two quality players than the old one, surely?

If these rules were in place already Buckley would still be Munsters tighthead instead of Botha. And no matter how much game time he was getting, he wouldn't be getting any better at scrummaging, and like last year, he would eventually be exposed and Munster would be dumped out of the Heineken Cup.

But according to the new ruling, Munster could still have brought BJ in because he was replacing an Irish qualified prop (Hayes). Ulster wouldn't have been able to sign Afoa though.

By the way, Buckley is doing well with Sale.

Wouldn't a better rule be you can't have two NIE in any one position in your province. You address need, but not overly

roddersm wrote:Spence is only getting regular gametime right now because Wallace is injured and there Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson too...yet the IRFU have no problem extending Paddy Wallace's contract? Same with Tom Court and Paddy McCallistair...where's the concern for the academy investment there?

Nevin Spence is playing out of position though- it's obvious he will not thrive at 12 long term and it's obvious he doesn't offer as much as Wallace currfently does and Luke Marshall in the future will. That's my concern with Spence- if Wallace was fit he would be playing outside a 12 who complements him very well and benefiting much more from playing a position he's better suited to. It's not Wallace he's up against, it's Cave. Jackson similarly was played out of position because he was the last man standing.

And If the IRFU hadn't extended Wallaces central contract he would have been on a contract with Ulster, meaning he didn't attend international training camps and therefore was available for more games for his provincial side.

Wallace won't be available to start pre-season at the same time as the rest of our non-international players next year due to the tour of New Zealand so someone will get more games then, if he hadn't gone to the World Cup he would have been starting for Ulster, if he wasn't in the Six Nations squad he would be starting for Ulster then... So I'm really struggling to follow the logic of how his central contract is bad news for the players behind him when it means he will not be available for a lot of Ulster games and the likes of Luke Marshall will get to play a lot more rugby.

Shopping list for nieces and nephews

Fionn - 18 months - antique cigar cutter
Aoibhín - 2 years - socket wrench tool kit
Ryley - 2.5 years - Stanley Kubrick box set
Juliana - 4 months - subscription to anglers monthly

Best uncle ever? Perhaps...

- One non-Irish eligible (NIE) player only in each of the 15 field positions across the provinces of Leinster, Munster and Ulster e.g. one foreign player allowed across all three teams per position.*


One I hope the WRU will copy.

Notch wrote:

roddersm wrote:Spence is only getting regular gametime right now because Wallace is injured and there Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson too...yet the IRFU have no problem extending Paddy Wallace's contract? Same with Tom Court and Paddy McCallistair...where's the concern for the academy investment there?

Nevin Spence is playing out of position though- it's obvious he will not thrive at 12 long term and it's obvious he doesn't offer as much as Wallace currfently does and Luke Marshall in the future will. That's my concern with Spence- if Wallace was fit he would be playing outside a 12 who complements him very well and benefiting much more from playing a position he's better suited to. It's not Wallace he's up against, it's Cave. Jackson similarly was played out of position because he was the last man standing.

And If the IRFU hadn't extended Wallaces central contract he would have been on a contract with Ulster, meaning he didn't attend international training camps and therefore was available for more games for his provincial side.

The point stands though Notch.It's very hypocritical of the IRFU to complain about academy players not getting selected because of NIE's and then give someone like Wallace a new contract, thus denying an academy graduate a place; whether that's Spence, Whitten, Jackson or Marshall is irrelevent, its the principal...one of those guys is missing out to a player on an IRFU central contract.

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:

roddersm wrote:Spence is only getting regular gametime right now because Wallace is injured and there Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson too...yet the IRFU have no problem extending Paddy Wallace's contract? Same with Tom Court and Paddy McCallistair...where's the concern for the academy investment there?

Nevin Spence is playing out of position though- it's obvious he will not thrive at 12 long term and it's obvious he doesn't offer as much as Wallace currfently does and Luke Marshall in the future will. That's my concern with Spence- if Wallace was fit he would be playing outside a 12 who complements him very well and benefiting much more from playing a position he's better suited to. It's not Wallace he's up against, it's Cave. Jackson similarly was played out of position because he was the last man standing.

And If the IRFU hadn't extended Wallaces central contract he would have been on a contract with Ulster, meaning he didn't attend international training camps and therefore was available for more games for his provincial side.

The point stands though Notch.It's very hypocritical of the IRFU to complain about academy players not getting selected because of NIE's and then give someone like Wallace a new contract, thus denying an academy graduate a place; whether that's Spence, Whitten, Jackson or Marshall is irrelevent, its the principal...one of those guys is missing out to a player on an IRFU central contract.

No, your point doesn't stand at all. If Wallace didn't have an IRFU contract he would have an Ulster contract- Ulster would have to foot the full bill of his wages and have less room in their budget for recent Academy graduates like Luke Marshall. Said players would also get less gametime if he was available during international windows

The more players on central contracts we have, the better it is because we can afford to have a larger squad. Similarly, the more central contracts we have the more opportunities players get to play during international windows.

Put it like this;

1) Wallace is the most suitable of all Ulsters centres to play at test level.
2) As he will be with Ireland at times during the season, there will be an opportunity for someone to step into his shoes that there wouldn't be if he wasn't centrally contracted.
3) As the IRFU pay most of his wages, Ulster have more flexibility in their budget to accommodate other (younger) players.

And why on earth should Marshall or Spence be in the frame for Wallaces central contract? They clearly have a lot to learn about the game.

Notch wrote:
No, your point doesn't stand at all. If Wallace didn't have an IRFU contract he would have an Ulster contract

It does stand because he has an IRFU contract, not an Ulster one, which means the IRFU, who are complaining about not enough academy players being selected in HEC games by the provinces, are directly advocating and facilitating his employment and selection at the expense of......an academy graduate.

But why should the IRFU employ players who are not yet good enough for the national team? What they need is to learn the game at provincial level before the make the next step up.

You seem to be advocating that the IRFU employ players straight out of the Academy to play for the national side ahead of experienced multi-capped players. Surely even you realise how incredibly stupid this is.

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:
No, your point doesn't stand at all. If Wallace didn't have an IRFU contract he would have an Ulster contract

It does stand because he has an IRFU contract, not an Ulster one, which means the IRFU, who are complaining about not enough academy players being selected in HEC games by the provinces, are directly advocating and facilitating his employment and selection at the expense of......an academy graduate.

Errrrrr by that logic the academy players themselves are taking the places of other players behind them

It's turtles all the way down

I'm not sayin that IRFU should employ anyone...what I'm saying is if they want more players from the academy playing in the HEC for their provinces to justify their investment, then they shouldn't be extending and giving long term contracts to the older Irish players. I just cited Wallace as an example, O'Callaghan is another...even BOD...ROG is keeping Keatley out etc.

My point is that they are using the NIE's as scapegoats when the IRFU are just as responsible for holding back the academy players.

A one year extension is not a long-term contract but that aside, you're wrong. Their job is to give contracts to the players who are the best in every position regardless of age. Wallace has earned it, ROG has earned it, BOD still merits it- DOC might lose his when it expires.

They aren't holding players back by not selecting them; it's incumbent on the players to be good enough to get selected. Their problem is a lack of competition in certain positions. But players need gametime with their province to showcase their talents.

They are wrong in that limiting the number of players in any given position won't wave a magic wand and see quality players come through but you're being ridiculous.

Notch wrote:
You seem to be advocating that the IRFU employ players straight out of the Academy to play for the national side ahead of experienced multi-capped players. Surely even you realise how incredibly stupid this is.

The IRFU are suggesting sticking substandard academy players into the HEC to increase Irelands player pool. I'm not advocating anything other than leaving the system as it is.

roddersm wrote:

Notch wrote:
You seem to be advocating that the IRFU employ players straight out of the Academy to play for the national side ahead of experienced multi-capped players. Surely even you realise how incredibly stupid this is.

The IRFU are suggesting sticking substandard academy players into the HEC to increase Irelands player pool. I'm not advocating anything other than leaving the system as it is.

You've just been saying that the IRFU offering contracts to players over 30 is wrong. You've just been saying that!

I mean I agree with you, and I think the way to go about this is to put a quota system in place on IQ players in the Pro12 only, but you can't make that argument in all seriousness. A province having more central contracts gives more up and coming players opportunities for better or worse.

Notch wrote:A one year extension is not a long-term contract but that aside, you're wrong. Their job is to give contracts to the players who are the best in every position regardless of age. Wallace has earned it, ROG has earned it, BOD still merits it- DOC might lose his when it expires.

I agree but if the IRFU decide their best players are 30 somethings who won't play in the next world cup it is unfair to force the provinces to select potentially substandard players from the academy, rather than sign in quality players, supposedly in the long term interests of Irish rugby.

Whoever came up with this at the IRFU should be shot.

Notch wrote:
You've just been saying that the IRFU offering contracts to players over 30 is wrong. You've just been saying that!

No I'm not saying that!

Alright; I just don't understand what you're saying. Can you elucidate why you think ROG, BOD, Wallace and DOC having central contracts over younger, less experienced player is a problem for Irish Rugby if the above are still good enough (for now)? And also why you think an older player getting more games for his province is better for the development of younger players?

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

roddersm wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:
Basically it means that Ireland will always at least have two quality players for all positions something we always lack.

No guarantees on the quality leinsterbaby but we'll have more quantity I suppose.

rodders, totally right - this new system no more guarantees two quality players than the old one, surely?

That's like saying I won't bother applying for my dream job because there are no guarantees I'll get it. With the new system at least two Irish players per position will have Heineken cup experience, that might not guarantee they will become world beaters but they will of course have a better chance.

I'm just thinking; if you think this thread is bad, wait until you see the one when the IRFU tell Leinster they're not allowed to resign Isa Nacewa.

Jared Payne's contact runs into 2014 meaning if these rules came into force as they are currently proposed (which I sincerely doubt, because the IRFU are about to have three very angry provincial CEOs on the phone) Nacewa would have to leave to play his rugby elsewhere as the fullback spot is taken.

But even if they could, the days of seeing him anywhere but that spot would be gone. No switching of positions; he must play the position stipulated in his contract.

Essentially the IRFU blazers are proposing a situation in which the IRFU blazers control who plays where. You'd have to think that it would be a better idea to let the coaches make that call.

Another bright idea from the men who brought us a 50'000 seater stadium when we'd been selling out an 80'000 seater then made the tickets so expensive they couldn't even sell that out. Welcome to amateur hour.

The reality is that the IRFU employ people at the branch's to run the provincial game and deliver success at that level whilst providing players for the national team.

Leinster are the heineken cup holders and had

Healy, Strauss, Ross, Hines, Cullen, McLaughlin, SOB, Heaslip, Reddan, Sexton, Fitz, D'arcy, BOD, Horgan, Nacewa.

I make that 12 IQ players and 9 members of the Irish RWC squad. Can someone tell me where the system is failing please? Its for others to debate but has there been a more home nation-centric team ever to win the competition (or certainly to win it recently).

They have since added Toner as a starter and are giving gametime to McFadden and O'Malley at centre.

Ulster have had backlines averaging 20/22 out on a few occasions both this season and last and have seen Mcallister, Spence, Marshall, jackson and Gilroy come through in the past 2 seasons with the latter already overtaking the NIQ ahead of him and the rest being behind IQ players.

Munster are giving Zebo, POM, Sherry, Barnes, O'Dea and Hurley all HEC gametime.

If the IRFU are so bloody concerned about props and Tightheads why in God's name did they allow Hagan to go to Leinster where he is playing British and Irish Cup rugby. The whole thing is idiotic and no amount of double speak will change that. I hope the provinces are able to fight this in some capacity.

Notch wrote:I'm just thinking; if you think this thread is bad, wait until you see the one when the IRFU tell Leinster they're not allowed to resign Isa Nacewa.

Jared Payne's contact runs into 2014 meaning if these rules came into force as they are currently proposed (which I sincerely doubt, because the IRFU are about to have three very angry provincial CEOs on the phone) Nacewa would have to leave to play his rugby elsewhere as the fullback spot is taken.

But even if they could, the days of seeing him anywhere but that spot would be gone. No switching of positions; he must play the position stipulated in his contract.

Essentially the IRFU blazers are proposing a situation in which the IRFU blazers control who plays where. You'd have to think that it would be a better idea to let the coaches make that call.

No one at Leinster wanted to see Hines, Wright, Contepomi or Elsom leave cause they were all Leinster legends. Yes? However, now we have Toner, Ross, Sexton and OBrien.

All Irish all legends (Toner based on Bath game) whose success was facilitated by great niq players leaving.

I really like Nacewa but Ireland went to the world cup with no fullback who had more than a few games under their belt. Why? Cause there were no Irish players playing in that position, plus injuries. The proposed system aims to avoid this in the future.

I am all for a system where the IRFU controls the provinces. Look at England, the interests of the AP and the RFU are so segregated that the national team is a mess.

Irish rugby should always be focused on the national team. I believe that as soon as this changes the consequences could be disastrous.

Leinsterbaby

They actually did have Irish players playing in those positions. D'arcy played the whole season for Ulster and Duffy played the whole season at Connacht. Jones played (when available) for Munster and would certainly have gone but for injury.

Kearney could have returned sooner and said so himself but was advised by the IRFU that he had his plane ticket already and thus was only fit for the RWC warm ups.

Thats 3 out of four provinces playing IQ fullbacks (as would be allowed in the new rules; actually only 2 provinces would have to have IQ 15's as Connacht are exempt) and the 4th province was playing an NIQ full back because the IQ regular was injured.You could argue that Fitz might have played fullback for Leinster but then Deccie saw fit to drop him during the 6N so why should Leinster be forced to play him.

What more can the provinces do??

Notch wrote:Another bright idea from the men who brought us a 50'000 seater stadium when we'd been selling out an 80'000 seater then made the tickets so expensive they couldn't even sell that out. Welcome to amateur hour.

The site is too small for an 80k stadium. Let's not forget that there were many players involved in the building of the new stadium. Irfu, fai, government, the local residents, planning authority. I'd love an 80k stadium too but I'd say the IRFu would too.

You can't get anything ambitious done in Ireland without wading through mountains of red tape.

Standulstermen wrote:Leinsterbaby

They actually did have Irish players playing in those positions. D'arcy played the whole season for Ulster and Duffy played the whole season at Connacht. Jones played (when available) for Munster and would certainly have gone but for injury.

Kearney could have returned sooner and said so himself but was advised by the IRFU that he had his plane ticket already and thus was only fit for the RWC warm ups.

Thats 3 out of four provinces playing IQ fullbacks (as would be allowed in the new rules; actually only 2 provinces would have to have IQ 15's as Connacht are exempt) and the 4th province was playing an NIQ full back because the IQ regular was injured.You could argue that Fitz might have played fullback for Leinster but then Deccie saw fit to drop him during the 6N so why should Leinster be forced to play him.

What more can the provinces do??

Connacht are exempt as you say and Duffy is poor enough anyway as is Darcy who was the only Irish fullback with regular game time at fullback. Jones had very limited experience despite being around for a while. The new proposal aims to have at least two players playing in each position at all times. There wasn't in this case there was one. Darcy who if you look at all the potential talent in the country at fb is this really the only guy you would want to be playing regularly there?

Leinster did persist with Fitz too even though it was painful to watch. However he rarely ever played at fullback despite claiming that this is his favourite position. By the time he was trialled for Ireland at fb he was muck. Why? Maybe cause he had rarely played there.

Stand makes an excellent point about the FB situation. The IRFU were indeed in exactly the same situation they would be under these new rules. And in the future, there'll be an Adam D'Arcy for every position - an IE player playing HEC rugby that the IRFU won't trust and can cheerily ignore.

Paul Marshall has had a great stretch recently, often out-performing the other 9s on the island. If Pienaar went home tomorrow, could we sign a new NIE 9? No. In which case, would Marshall ever feature for Ireland, however he performed? No. They'd play Reddan, Boss, Murray, O'Leary and Stringer before him.

They are blaming the provinces for their own conservatism.

Er..outperformed Murray....????

One or twice, yes. It's beside the point anyway. The players won't be any better, they'll just have HEC experience, and they will be ignored by the national set-up.

red_stag wrote:DOD I know your a big believe in the Cork v Limerick internal rivalry (like myself) but I had a conversation with one of the "sports science" gurus that Munster use and he was saying that the separate training facilities is leading to poorer Munster academies and thats a big factor in so few Munster lads getting underage caps.

Missed this post rs..the thing is good Munster underage players only come around in cycles but when they do come along the Irish underage teams do well. Look at the poor results over the last 24 monthswith underage teams dominated by leinster/ulster players. Our players do well because of the strong club system, rather than the namby pamby Dublin teams for example. We have a lot of players on the books who are good or who have a lot of potential. Its not the cork/limerick training centres that are the problem its that in the last few years there was a commercial element to the selection policy which means that players like Nagle, pom, Barnes, archer etc (I could list about five to ten more) didn't get enough gametime. Leinster conciously gave the young guns game time and now it is paying off for them. Pom has been good enough to start regularly for about two years, Nagle is good enough, O'Dea looks good enough, zebo has stood out since he was 18, archer should be playing regularly. The Buckleyexperiment would have been sorted years ago.

Mcgahan and kidney to an extent have caused a certainamount of malaise with a conservative selection policy. At this time Tommy O'Donnellis a better option than leaky, pom should be made captain now with a view to the future. We are two years behind developingthe team. When we lost badly to leinster in 09 in the semi the cull should have happened.

This new policy is a good thing , rugby teams take time to develop especially at senior level

leinsterbaby wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:Leinsterbaby

They actually did have Irish players playing in those positions. D'arcy played the whole season for Ulster and Duffy played the whole season at Connacht. Jones played (when available) for Munster and would certainly have gone but for injury.

Kearney could have returned sooner and said so himself but was advised by the IRFU that he had his plane ticket already and thus was only fit for the RWC warm ups.

Thats 3 out of four provinces playing IQ fullbacks (as would be allowed in the new rules; actually only 2 provinces would have to have IQ 15's as Connacht are exempt) and the 4th province was playing an NIQ full back because the IQ regular was injured.You could argue that Fitz might have played fullback for Leinster but then Deccie saw fit to drop him during the 6N so why should Leinster be forced to play him.

What more can the provinces do??

Connacht are exempt as you say and Duffy is poor enough anyway as is Darcy who was the only Irish fullback with regular game time at fullback. Jones had very limited experience despite being around for a while. The new proposal aims to have at least two players playing in each position at all times. There wasn't in this case there was one. Darcy who if you look at all the potential talent in the country at fb is this really the only guy you would want to be playing regularly there?

Leinster did persist with Fitz too even though it was painful to watch. However he rarely ever played at fullback despite claiming that this is his favourite position. By the time he was trialled for Ireland at fb he was muck. Why? Maybe cause he had rarely played there.

You're argument doesnt hold up given the example that you cited. You said that there were no IQ 15's when in fact there were 3. One got injured and the other two were considered not up to it. You seem to be suggesting that Leinster should have given gametime to fitz at 15 while they were bringing through Kearney despite the fact that they were bringing through Fitz at 11 at the same time??? Im truly baffled by that. why would Leinster give gametime at 15 to someone they saw as the answer at 11? To make him a utility player? This dictat from the IRFU clearly doesnt like utility players and wants specialised players.

What this rule will ensure is that we will see more of the calibre of player like D'arcy and Duffy who wont be good enough for international level but the provinces will be forced to play them instead of bringing in guys that can not only outperform them but also help them develop parts of their game.