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Exeter Chiefs	Driver - RIP 606
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Harlequins	Steven_Sharks
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London Wasps	Arry
Newcastle Falcons	Sgt_Pooly
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Waiting List
1. pullthestrings
2. Bathite

I do think that Robshaw deserves his chance at the international level but not at the expense of Croft who doesn't deserve to be dropped. Injury to Wood will give Robshaw his chance surely because as much as I like Dowson he shouldn't be ahead of Robshaw at the moment.

Glad to see Dowson get his chance. Big favourite of Lancaster's with the Saxon's so good chance he may see some game time.

Think Matt likes Dowson too

dammit_chris wrote:driver will be happy...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/9009577/Gary-Gold-and-Mike-Ford-named-new-Newcastle-Falcons-coaches-as-Alan-Tait-takes-break-from-rugby.html

Were fkd either way unless he snaps up some bok talent

I am a huge fan of Dowson.

I love the way he is far to old to be making his international debut, the way he has very little pace, average hands and is a mediocre carrier. i particularly like the fact that time and again he has been shown to struggle with the one on one tackles on big runners they think he should be in the England squad.

If he does get an official cap he will officially be the worst player to play for England in my life time.

Dross x 20

Erm Mat you appear to be forgetting Banahan?

think banahan has more to offer than Dowson at international level. at least banahan has size although again utter dross

I used to think that until Shane Williams smashed him in a one on one tackle when all Banahan had to do was run to the corner and put the ball down over the try line - instead he looked for contact. Could be so much better if he had a little bit of intelligence. Unfortunately...

I think Dowson is a clever player who is a good leader of players - don;t think he can step up to the top level - but I have the same opinion about Robshaw if I'm honest.

I know I get slated every time I say it, but still think England's biggest lose is how Tom Rees gets injured so often - he's an out and out seven, leader, good carrier and good on the deck. He's back in February apparently - how long this time though!

Anyone used the Telegraoh players v player stats tool. It's fantastic. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/fixtures/3538935/Rugby-Union-Statistics.html

Here is an example of Robshaw (left) v Dowson (right)

12 Matches 13
1 Tries 4
5 Points 20
0 Try assist 2
3 Kicks From Hand 0
79 Passes 66
0 Yellow cards 1
0 Red cards 0
140 Carries 149
268 Metres carried 466
0 Clean breaks 7
6 Offloads 11
10 Defenders beaten 12
136 Tackles 101
5 Missed tackles 6
5 Penalties conceded 10
6 Turnovers conceded 10
17 Line outs won own throw 19
3 Lineout steals 2

It's difficult to read as I've pasted it straight from the site. Gives great comparisons.

Btw I think you are entirely wrong about Dowson Matt. Great player

one of my best mates is a Saints fan and he thinks Dowson is by far their best player.

Been going through all the stats comparisons for debateable things that people disagree on.

like Mujati v PDJ, Corbs v Marler etc

Really fascinating to look at them. They don't show you everything but they do give a good base and indication of strengths and weaknesses. Only probelm is is that they don't give the amount of starts v subs when it comes to appearances. EG Mujati has 12 appearances and PDJ has 13. Half of those will be from the bench etc.

on paper that does look good for dowson
but i am not 100% convinced by him.
good to have as a sub as covers all positions in backrow.

What's the Robshaw v Wood stats Steve, can't get it on my work comp.

Dowson plays behind a dominant pack and often at 8 so not surprised by the metres/carries stats & clean breaks.

Aslo Dowson/Croft are similar types of players, they tend to stand out at 2/3rd receiver and it's usually open grond they're running into. Robshaw is usually doing the hard yards on pick and goes and first reciever stuff. Different players, different uses....Dowson is less physical but more effective in open ground.

Not much really in the rest, I like Dowson and he's good 6/8 cover, surprised he's played more games than Robshaw though.

PDJ starts ahead of Mujati doesn't he?

He has recently Pooly but only got the chance after Mujati's injury. Mujati not entirely fit yet apparently. Have to wait a while to find out about them.

Here are the Robshaw v Wood stats. They are from the HC as Wood was away at the WC and was hard to judge the stats when games are so different.

Robshaw v Wood (In Heinken Cup)

4 Matches 4
0 Tries 1
0 Points 5
0 Try assist 0
0 Kicks From Hand 0
27 Passes 9
0 Yellow cards 1
0 Red cards 0
48 Carries 25
80 Metres carried 113
1 Clean breaks 1
8 Offloads 1
0 Defenders beaten 2
51 Tackles 46
4 Missed tackles 1
7 Penalties conceded 3
3 Turnovers conceded 2
6 Line outs won own throw 18
0 Lineout steals 1

Robshaw is being done over in the stats!

Dowson has played every minute so far this year Pooly along with Brown and Matt Jess.

Stats are useful to prove good points about individual players but I wouldn't give them too much credit when comparing or trying to prove things against players. Just interesting to look at.

Dowson was on the bench when clark was playing

Dowson hasn't played every minute, we had this debate with Chris when Clark was starting ahead of him.

Mujati is fully fit as far as I'm aware, they were talking about it on espn how PDJ had got used to the Saints squat scrummaging style and had overtaken Mujati.

I mean in the AP with regard to Dowson. No idea about Europe.

Mujati missed a few games in December because of injury. That's when PDJ got his chance. Would have Mujati everyday of the week personally.

I guess you would say that as you have him on here. Seems Mallinder prerfers PDJ.

Dowson hasn't played every minute of Ap, he was benched for a fair bit behind Clark

Mujati definitley better in the loose which is not difficult compared to PDJ but think PDJ a more destructive scrummager.

Agree with steven re stats. they are nice to look at but often misleading.

players like narraway and Dowson will always have high metres made stats as they run the wider channels compared to your robshaw easter type carriers

I think Mallinder is a fair coach. when PDJ arrived Mujati was on better form and so he picked him/

Mujati got injured PDJ did well and now Mujati is not injured mallinder is saying PDJ has the shirt and has done well you need to earn it back.

personally i would play them horses for courses. both good players

Robshaw v Wood (prem)

12 Matches 6
1 Tries 1
5 Points 5
0 Try assist 0
3 Kicks From Hand 1
79 Passes 15
0 Yellow cards 0
0 Red cards 0
140 Carries 28
268 Metres carried 67
0 Clean breaks 1
6 Offloads 2
10 Defenders beaten 0
136 Tackles 32
5 Missed tackles 0
5 Penalties conceded 5
6 Turnovers conceded 4
17 Line outs won own throw 20
3 Lineout steals 0

I think that shows that Robshaw is perhaps the better carrier which is what I was originally saying. It also shows stats don't show the full picture although they do show some things.

Wood is well ahead of Dowson as a player although his stats don't point to this. Robshaw has better stats alround than Wood but I wouldn't say he was a better player, just different.

I have got the Stats from Opta. I'm not making it up.

'1040 - Phil Dowson, Matt Jess & Mike Brown are the only three ever-present players in the Aviva Premiership this season (1040 mins). Vital.'

Mujati and PDJ have started the same amount of AP games. PDJ started 4 (I think) at Loose head at the start of the season and that brings him level with Mujati. Mujati has started more at Tight head. I would hardly say that 2 games starting ahead of Mujati since his return means Mallinder prefers him and it seems odd to assume that. As I said earlier time will tell who Mallinder prefers.

Robshaw does do a lot of carrying but his carries don't make loads of yards. Something like 2m a carry.

you can see how weird these stats are i have seen wood speed past a defender which must be a defender beaten stat yet it says he has none.

I wouldn't have much between PDJ/Mujati, both good TH's. PDJ the better scrummager and Mujati the better carrier perhaps.

Robshaw's carries are often in the tight thats why Steve, he makes the hard years. it's not often you see him out on the wing as he hasn't got express pace. Dowson is a rangy runner and eats up the yards, if you watch Saints he's often on the wing.

Getting Gary Gold as Falcons coach is some coup. fantastic coach. amazed he took the job

Bit bloody late late though Matt, Tait should have gone last season

I suspect he knows he is in for the long haul. They have a chance of staying up this year if Wasps keep on struggling but its an outside chance. Maybe Newcastle will benefit from the year in the Championship. Gold will keep some big names with his name so they should go straight back up.

Ford should be great as a defensive coach. This is also assuming that the side coming up meet the ground specifications.

Squad looks strong. Good even representation as well which is important I feel.

England Under 20 Elite Player Squad 2011/2012

Forwards
Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)*
Nick Auterac (Saracens)
Alec Hepburn (London Wasps)
Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)
Nathan Morris (London Wasps)
Scott Spurling (Saracens)
Koree Britton (Gloucester Rugby)*
Sam Twomey (Harlequins)*
George Merrick (Harlequins)
Tom Price (Leicester Tigers)
Dom Barrow (Leeds Carnegie)
Ben Nutley (Northampton Saints)
Chris Walker (Leeds Carnegie)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)*
Billy Vunipola (London Wasps)
Will Skuse (Bath Rugby)
Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Backs
Dan Robson (Gloucester Rugby)*
Alex Day (Northampton Saints)
Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)*
Ryan Mills (Gloucester Rugby)*
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Elliot Daly (London Wasps)*
Jamie Elliott (Northampton Saints)*
Mark Jennings (Sale Sharks)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)*
Charlie Walker (Harlequins)
Will Addison (Sale Sharks)
Ben Ransom (Saracens)*
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Watch out for mills. starting to bench for gloucester. this is his second year and he can play anywhere from 9-13. very good player.

As is Robson from Glos.

What a talented set of backs that is with elliot dayley, ransom, addison etc

Can pick a decent side out of that squad.

1. Cowan-Dickie
2. Spurling
3. Sinckler
4. Twomney
5. Barrow
6. Kvesic
7. Nutley
8. Vunipola
9. Spencer
10. Ford
11. Elliot
12. Jennings
13. Daly
14. Yarde
15. Ransom

And that is missing out numerous players with AP experience and some previous age group captains.

Very good side, Daley has looked quality for Wasps.

Very good team that - like the look of it. The scrum halves are all very good - this must be Ford's 3rd Junior WC now - think he is still able to play in the next one as well!

Best u20 team I think I have seen - like the look of the forwards (though front row not as good scrummagers) - backrow is very good.

Half backs all great and the centres and wings are all very good - think Jamie Elliott will be the one to watch there - alongside Elliot Daly, George Ford and Ben Spencer.

Also keep an eye on Scott Spurling - he's very good - English version of Brits!

Can he not scummage or throw either? (only kidding Steve)

Brits throwing has been as good as anybody's this season I'll have you know!

Spurling might have to go elsewhere for first team rugby, got Brits, Smit and George ahead of him in the pecking order.

I'd say Elliot was the least exciting of the wings. Preferred what I've seen of Yarde and Addison

I can't decide whether I think this years side is better than last years or not.

England: 15 Ben Ransom, 14 Andy Short, 13 Elliot Daly, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Christian Wade, 10 George Ford, 9 Chris Cook, 8 Alex Gray (capt), 7 Matt Kvesic, 6 Sam Jones, 5 Charlie Matthews, 4 Joe Launchbury, 3 Henry Thomas, 2 Mikey Haywood, 1 Mako Vunipola.
Replacements: 16 Rob Buchanan, 17 Will Collier, 18 Sam Twomey, 19 Matt Everard, 20 Dan Robson, 21 Ryan Mills, 22 Marland Yarde.

was the side for last years final side. No space for players as good as JJ (who was struggling for form).

10 of that starting side I would now consider to be regularly in AP squads, and others aren't a million miles away.

Last year justs edges it as we stand.

I think last years is better, considerably.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_7424958,00.html

face you wanna punch

But that is after we have seen them go on to better things I suspect.

Never head of Tom Price I must say.

Yea he's really sorted it out this year, as good as any these days.

I've heard it was a bad decision Nick. Apparently given for sale flanker puliing the opposition loosehead when irish were doing exactly the same.

Where did you hear it was a bad decision Steve?

Sale forum. Whilst there maybe bias it was a lot of people saying it was wrong. They are pretty good judges of rugby on there as well so unlikely they all got it wrong.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3551_7425424,00.html

An article about Rowntree saying England's priority of finding a new poacher. mentions converting players they have in the squad, or promoting Saull and looking at Kvesic. No mention of Luke Wallace.

Also Rowntree discusses Marler

To be fair mate, if you go on the Irish forum they will all say it was the right decision and I could make the same comment about them being good judges of rugby.

but why would Sale try to wheel a scrum in the last minute when they were in penalty distance? It's not what you do. Diamond was clearly adamant he was write so I back him, being a front row player himself.

And no bias there at all Steve?

Irish had more to gain from wheeling the scrum than Sale. That's all I'm saying. As Nick says you had been getting the better of the scrum all game why would Sale know be able to wheel it.