All Out Cricket's Discussion of the Week - Which England hopefuls will make the grade?

This week on www.alloutcricket.com England Lions star Tymal Mills shares his first blog from the team's tour of Bangladesh:

http://www.alloutcricket.com/blogs/comment/tymal-mills-england-lions-cricket-blog

Which of England's young stars do you think will go on to claim 50 caps for their country? (For Mike Gatting's, Chris Adams' and Tymal Mills' views on this subject, check out next month's mag).

One last thing... Happy New Year!

James Taylor certainly will in both ODIs and Tests imo and I'm fairly certain Jason Roy will get there in ODI's/T20 as well, they are both very, very talented.

Wouldn't know, but just wondering, are there any hopeful south africans that could make it?

Not stirring, just asking.

You can have Dernbach back

Taylor, as carrot says, is probably the main one in terms of batting.

Chris Woakes is a possibility as an all-rounder. He had a cracking season with Warks last year, with both the bat and ball, and I think he may really push the likes of Bresnan for his place in the Test side if he repeats such form again in the 2012 season.

I guess Steven Finn can still be considered a hopeful, and one has to suspect that he will be a regular in the Test side within the next couple of years, particularly given his recent added pace and accuracy.

Got to agree with the players mentioned already.
Reckon Buttler, Bairstow, Stokes and Borthwick could all have a chance at ODI level in particular, though a couple of those could go on to test level.
How about someone like Alex Hales? Strauss can't go on forever, and he's one whose name is being mentioned as a possible long-term replacement.

Buttler for ODI and T20, Bairstow will probably play T20 and ODI depending on the balance of the team they want and how Kieswetter does. Probably will be back up to Prior soon as well. Woakes will end up getting a chance at test level I reckon. And of course Taylor for test and ODI not sure on T20 atm.

The bowing department doesn't need changing for a while, depends how long Swanny can go for.

Taylor the most likely batsman. I can see Buttler succeeding in ODIs & T20

Maybe Meaker.....

From those mentioned...

Taylor - Tests and ODIs. A huge talent. FEC?

Buttler - T20, maybe ODIs. Very specialist player, a lower order hitter. As such, fitting him into the ODI side will be difficult as it would involve dropping a 'proper' batsman.

Woakes - will play all forms, but unsure if he'll be a regular in the short/medium-term, considering the competition we have for places at the moment. That said, with a good keeper at 6, he could end up good enough bat at 7 in Tests.

Dernbach - could serve a purpose, but needs to improve a lot as a bowler.

Bairstow - could be our Test wicket-keeper once Prior has retired. Depends how he progresses with the gloves.

Meaker - doubt it. He's fast yes, but you need more than that.

Hales - already in the T20, could end up in the Test team also as we're not exactly blessed with openers. Root is another option, but I don't know much about him.

Roy - could end up getting a few ODI/T20 caps, but at present the competition for top-order places is too high.

Stokes - has a very dodgy finger which could prevent him from ever bowling again. If so, it throws a spanner in the works as he was tipped to be an all-rounder in potentially all forms of the game for us. Plenty of batting talent though, so could become a specialist batsman.

Borthwick - people get over excited about leggies. Talented, but Briggs is a better long-term bet.

Briggs - could well be Swanny's long-term successor (though Monty may play a bit in between, being 3 years Swann's junior).

Taylor - I'd be very surprised if he doesn't become a regular of the England test side. Possibly as an opener.

Buttler - Certainly should pla T20s, but with England still searching for the balance in ODIs I'm not sure where he fits in. Would be surprised if he made it at test level.

Woakes - Everyone keeps telling me how good he is, but I haven't really seen much with the ball. Seems to bowl at a "nice" pace, and a bit full and driveable. Needs to either find another yard of pace to get bite off the wicket, or bowl a yard shorter for me. A lot of promise with the bat and good termperament could easily bat 7, but bowling needs to improve.

Dernbach - Variety is good for T20s, but not a good enough stock ball for anything longer. Yet.

Bairstow - Looks the real deal, as a batsman even if not a keeper. Should compete for a middle-order spot in all formats. Could easily bat 6 in tests if England remain keen to pursue the all-rounder strategy.

Meaker - haven't seen much of him.

Hales - seen a bit more but not much. Seems to have a calm head, but somewhat flirty outside the off-stump, so may need to change that if he's to succeed at test level.

Root - I don't think I've ever seen him play.

Roy - future England player in all formats. Aggressive batsmen now being acceptable as test openers (thank you Australia and of course Greenidge before them), from what I've seen he could easily make the step up in class.

Stokes - Wasn't impressed with his first few England outings, looked a bit caught in headlights. Will probably be another couple of seasons before he's ready (including getting through a dodgy patch).

Borthwick - I like him. A lot. He has something special, but seems to be stagnating a bit at the moment. Needs to find the next gear.

Briggs - only ever seen him bowl in one-dayers where he fires it in a la Doherty. As such could do a job in ODIs (although as seen with Patel, simply firing it in at that level probably not enough) as Doherty does, but unless I've missed something I can't see him having an impact in the longer form.

Swann still has a good few years left BTW (fielding in the slips helps) so when he retires I expect one of these guys to have matured enough (remember spinners mature late, so don't expect miracles from guys in their early 20s).

A couple of guys who I like the look of who haven't been mentioned.

Dawid Malan (another south african ): top or middle-order player who oozes class, and whose best knocks for Middlesex always seem to come with them in trouble, suggesting a good temparament. I'd be very surprised if he didn't play for England in the future.

Topley: I think that's the name of the young quick from Essex. Saw him at the start of the season and I thought he had something about him.

Also Kerrigan (SLA) of Lancs, although I've only seen him once; for me, more promising than Briggs.

And of course Dockrell, although stating that his dream is to play test cricket for Ireland, could well find himself frustrated by factors beyond his control, and give in to the $ and play for England...

m@tt wrote:Buttler - T20, maybe ODIs. Very specialist player, a lower order hitter. As such, fitting him into the ODI side will be difficult as it would involve dropping a 'proper' batsman.

Not a 'proper' batsman?

He has a very very good eye for when a big shot can be played, but he also has a number of textbook shots that he plays as well as the big ones. One of the best things in Buttler's game is that he rarely lets a game get away from him because he judges the pace of his innings so well. Notts at T20 finals day is an example of this he and Pollard were there at the end. He didn't fall to pressure and go all out nuts about chasing the score, he and Pollard did enough that was required over by over.

The other thing would be he has the balls to play the big or risky shots when required to or when they are on to be played, would a 'proper' batsman do that. Apart from the emergence of Morgan I don't think England have had someone with that combination in a long time. KP was too aggressive and often fell to a stupid shot, Flintoff more often then not didn't go on when he got the starts.

As a Surrey supporter, I'll be particularly interested to read Chris Adams' views in next month's mag.

Of Surrey's current crop of youngish players, I would particularly flag Jason Roy and Stuart Meaker.

Roy is a wonderful talent with masses of natural ability. At times, too impulsive and whilst he needs to work on that, his critics need to give him some leeway as that is part of his attacking make up which has already borne gifts and will, I'm sure, deliver many more. I have been convinced of this since I saw Roy in a second eleven championship match at, erh, Guildford in May 2010 and bored most of the Surrey regulars here and on the old 606 senseless about it ever since.

Meaker has real pace and the ability to trouble all batsmen. I think England are right to have identified him but believe any successful future with them is more likely to be in Tests than ODIs. He will take wickets but is always liable to concede runs. Bizarrely, he was not a regular in Surrey's limited overs games last season but subsequently got an ODI call up.

Tom Maynard is also highly regarded at Surrey and could yet develop into an international batsman. If you wanted a small bet at longish odds on one other, I would flag Zafar Ansari. Can bat anywhere from opener to late middle order, useful slow left arm and fine fielder. However, more importantly than that, he is a thinking and intelligent cricketer.

Of just a few of the others mentiond:

* Tymal Mills certainly has got pace. This was emphasised by Rory Hamilton-Brown at a Surrey members forum late last season. Whether he can add sufficient direction remains the question.

* Chris Woakes is clearly a very decent cricketer. However, I'm not so certain of his future success at international level as many other posters (Mike Selig excepted from his comments above). Woakes lacks pace. That doesn't rule him out at the top level but he will need to be incredibly and consistently accurate. I suspect the challenge for him will be greater than most. I accept he is a more than useful bat. I'll also flag another positive part of his game which hardly gets a mention. His fielding. I saw him in a CB40 game last season in which he took three boundary catches ranging from good to superb.

* Hardly original but I endorse the comments about James Taylor. A class act. At another Surrey forum last season, at the end of play during the CC game against Leics, both Steve Davies and Jason Roy spoke very highly about him. I thought the views of such fellow professionals very telling even if not surprising.

Guilford,

I'm glad I'm not the only one who remains a bit sceptical about Woakes's future in international cricket. He is of course still young (and so could feasibly "bulk up" and get a stronger action, find a yard of pace and then who knows?).

You seem to have seen that something special in Roy that I have seen in Pattinson the younger. Of course, 606v2 wasn't yet open after I first saw him bowl (last Xmas) so I wasn't able to bore too many people senseless about it.

Interesting to read your thoughts on Meaker. I think England have taken the view in the last 4 years or so that they will blood their young players first in ODIs to see what they're made of mentally, and whether they can handle quality opposition. They seem to regard ODIs as a "testing ground" for potential international cricketers, which of course partly explains why they seem to be so hopeless at them, but also why players like Meaker (and Borthwick to a lesser extent) are earning their dues in one-day cricket first. I would hope they won't be concentrating too much on the figures, but rather on whether the players look at home.

Quite surprised by the views on the bowling of Woakes. He had success against pretty much every County Championship Div 1 side last year with the ball, and is considerably better than the likes of Meaker, Mills etc that have been mentioned above. I wouldn't call 82-85mph a lack of pace, and whilst it'd be great if that was 85-88mph, there are plenty of bowlers that succeed with similar numbers at international level.

Mike,

We're definitely at one about Woakes. I don't rule him out but am a long way from viewing him as the guaranteed, future success that others appear to do.

Yes, Roy is special, very special. If he bats for an hour, the whole game can be transformed. As well as his batting, his fielding is absolutely tremendous. A very safe pair of hands and a quick mover across the ground. Last season he pulled off the greatest run out I have seen in over forty years of watching county and international cricket (live and on tv). A sprinting boundary stop followed by a direct throw to the non-strikers end. Rather wasted on Dimi Mascarenhas but you can't blame Roy for that! For good reason, he is often respectffully referred to on the Surrey threads as Le Roi .

I agree with your thoughts about how England view limited overs matches as a way of blooding young players. An extra difficulty here for Meaker (and I'm sure he's not alone) is that his county coach is not of the same view and views the two formats very differently with each standing on their own. Thus, Meaker's Test trial for England appears to be several ODIs when he is only rarely playing that type of game for Surrey. Not convinced how right or helpful that is for anyone.

I guess Lions games are the only way forward for someone like Meaker then, in terms of impressing for England. There is no hope of him being put in to the Test team, the world number one side can make no concessions, and it'd be a huge risk against anyone at that level.

Hope Woakesy proves you naysayers wrong, I think he is comfortably the next best bowler now after the current lot in the England side.

guildfordbat wrote:Mike,



I agree with your thoughts about how England view limited overs matches as a way of blooding young players. An extra difficulty here for Meaker (and I'm sure he's not alone) is that his county coach is not of the same view and views the two formats very differently with each standing on their own. Thus, Meaker's Test trial for England appears to be several ODIs when he is only rarely playing that type of game for Surrey. Not convinced how right or helpful that is for anyone.

I don't think it's such a conflict, if the people who matter are more concerned with what potential Meaker shows rather than how he actually does. For example, if he bowls a good over to Tendulkar and Shewag, beats them once each but still gives away 6 runs as they grab a single each to a deep-set mid-off and Tendulkar hits a slightly wide ball - which he would probably ignore in a test - for 4 over backward point, then I would hope (and think) the current England management would be more looking at the balls which had premium batsmen in trouble, then the actual analysis which is an over for 6.

To draw a parallel with what I do (again, at a much lower standard): we frequently see young spinners go all over the place here in France. This is partly due to synthetic pitches (which don't turn much), partly because all young spinners bowl a fair amount of trash (Shane Warne excluded) but mainly because the batsmen basically slog, but unfortunately the spinners generally have captains who don't know anything about field placings (and why would they? for the most part no one has sat down with them and talked about cricket tactics) so the miscues go for 2, the ones when they connect go for 4, and even good balls too easily get nudged for a single. As a coach I have to look past the figures and look for potential. I saw a really talented spinner a couple of years back who bowled 5 really good overs (There were 2 bad balls, which in 5 overs is very good for a 15 year old leg-spinner) but finished with 2-37. Thankfully I was there to watch, but when I mentioned this kid to a general ignorant he said "this guy? But his stats aren't much to write home about" (the french equivalent).

My point is, I'm sure Meaker won't be judged on how he goes, but how he looks. And in time I think he'll play a part in the shorter formats for Surrey. Look at Shaun Tait/Patrick Cummins.

I hope you replied with "You're French, what on Earth would you know about cricket? Stick to surrendering"?

Fists of Fury wrote:Quite surprised by the views on the bowling of Woakes. He had success against pretty much every County Championship Div 1 side last year with the ball, and is considerably better than the likes of Meaker, Mills etc that have been mentioned above. I wouldn't call 82-85mph a lack of pace, and whilst it'd be great if that was 85-88mph, there are plenty of bowlers that succeed with similar numbers at international level.

Fists - Woakes is currently a very fine county player as I've said. It's the step up to international level (particularly Tests) that I'm concerned about. Today he is a much better bowler than Mills without question and probably Meaker (although I don't buy your ''considerably better'' comment).

Meaker and possibly Mills (although still really too early to say about him) have the potential to be a success at Test level if they can retain at least reasonable control over their direction and eliminate much of their (too much current) waywardness. It won't be easy but there is a fighting chance there.

As I see it, Woakes has two options. He needs to find extra pace which, at his age and build now, I don't think he'll be able to do. The second option is to be incredibly and consistently accurate. This might be achieveable but it will be difficult. In my view, it's essential if Woakes is to be succesful against the top Test teams (I accept he could do it against Bangladesh today) where a lack of pace without tremendous accuracy will count against him and England. The gulf in class between, say, Australia's top six today and Yorkshire's last season is massive. Woakes isn't ready for that step up yet. He might be in the future but it's not a given in my book.

Fists of Fury wrote:I hope you replied with "You're French, what on Earth would you know about cricket? Stick to surrendering"?

Fists - just to alert you. I believe the none too politically correct Skyeman has hacked into your computer and is submitting posts in your name.

I''ll have that scoundrel kicked out!

Mike, I see your points, but they do of course apply to every single young English bowler at this moment in time, and what Woakes lacks in pace in comparison to say Meaker, he more than makes up for in accuracy, subtleties and a bit of swing.

It is a waiting game, I guess. The truth will out.

Bairstow is the one I've seen the most of and while he's undoubtedly going to be involved in the short forms of the game at international level, I think he has the confidence and temperament to take that into tests.

As others have said, he could possibly bat as high as 6 but if his keeping develops he could be an ideal long term replacement for Prior at 7.

Stuart Meaker took four wickets and Bairstow hit an unbeaten 50, but Roy was bowled first ball as England Lions cruised to victory in the second one-dayer to square the series against Bangladesh A.

Mike Selig wrote:

My point is, I'm sure Meaker won't be judged on how he goes, but how he looks. And in time I think he'll play a part in the shorter formats for Surrey. Look at Shaun Tait/Patrick Cummins.

Mike - your point is fair and sound. It does depend in part on the England management being prepared to stand firm at times against media maulings (in a similar way to you and the ignorant Frenchman). I don't really have a current worry about that as our cricket leaders these days do seem to have some backbone.

I'm probably unnecessarily making something of it given I follow your point but still can't help feeling that Meaker would have more confidence and awareness of what was required from him in an ODI if he had more experience first of playing limited overs games at county level.

skyeman wrote:Stuart Meaker took four wickets and Bairstow hit an unbeaten 50, but Roy was bowled first ball as England Lions cruised to victory in the second one-dayer to square the series against Bangladesh A.

Skye -I see that all four of Meaker's wickets were''bowled'' whilst he was the most expensive of our bowlers going for virtually a run a ball off his 8 overs. Rather supports my earlier comments. Hopefully, as Mike has suggested, more notice will be taken of the wickets than the runs. As for Roy - form is temporary, genius is permanent.

I think Woakes is another who is more suited to Test cricket than ODIs tbh but is another who will have to prove himself capable at the shorter forms before he is trusted with a Test spot. I see him as a bit of an understudy to Bresnan's role, decent lower order hitter who can offer swing with the new ball. I think his lack of pace would only be an issue in the subcontinent or other very flat pitches in a similar way to Anderson before the last couple of years. It will certainly be very interesting to see who emerges as the next set of Test bowlers. If you took out Anderson, Broad, Finn, Tremlett Bresnan and Onions who would you pick as your 3 seamers to go with Swann? I'd certainly have Woakes in as one of them.

woakes is a tough one to decide on..he has potentail, but is that all he has? i hope im wrong, but whenever i watch him, i feel there's more in him, but it never delivers....

Fists of Fury wrote:I hope you replied with "You're French, what on Earth would you know about cricket? Stick to surrendering"?

Nothing half as good. I merely said in my true diplomatic style "I think I'll trust my judgement over your statistics".

hodge wrote:

m@tt wrote:Buttler - T20, maybe ODIs. Very specialist player, a lower order hitter. As such, fitting him into the ODI side will be difficult as it would involve dropping a 'proper' batsman.

Not a 'proper' batsman?

I put "proper" in quotes for a reason - because he's a lower order hitting rather than a top-order player, other people might have the misperception that he's not a proper batsman. Plus he's a wicketkeeper as well, so people will question playing two keepers in the same XI.

That's not my opinion by the way; I know full well that he scores with good cricket shots and has a strong temperament and in my view he's good enough to play as a specialist batsman.

In hindsight maybe "frontline" would have been a better word?

Of the current Lions squad (+ Stokes who is injured):

Taylor - Will be a very good player in both formats. Might havea long wait for a regular place in the team

Bairstow - His form in 2011 sets the bar very high. He will struggle to make the Test side in my opinion and needs to make sure he keeps progressing in one-day cricket to avoid becoming another Bopara/Luke Wright

Borthwick - A good all-round player but not really much more than a 'holding' spinner in one-day cricket yet. England have seen something though so he may well kick on in the next couple of years.

Briggs - Very similar to Borthwick. Not bowling leg-spin means selectors will probably favour Borthwick.

Brooks - Like the look of him every time I see him bowl but well down the fast bowling pecking order right this minute.

Buck - Don't know that much about him. Not that impressed on the occasions I have seen him.

Buttler - A really exciting one-day prospect. Early signs for Somerset suggest he could well be a fantastic finisher to the innings in ODIs and T20Is. Could well get a more extended run shortly, having scored runs in big matches on a regular basis in county cricket.

Hales - 2011 was a big year for him as he moved from the 'potential' stage of his development to scoring runs on a regular basis. Not convinced he will be a Test regular (though wouldn't rule it out) but a strong case for a place at the top of the ODI and T20 orders.

Kerrigan - Very good start to his FC career and quietly making a case to be the long-term successor to Swann. Not played much one-day cricket or even played in every FC game due to Keedy's presence at Lancs.

Maynard - A really good talent in one-day cricket and only 22 (though people seem to think he is older). FC average of under 30 needs improvement.

Meaker - Mixed start to his ODI career in India. Pace is a strong asset but consistency is needed. Doesn't always get into the Surrey side yet.

Mills - I know very little about him.

Rankin - A good bowler but a little inconsistent for me at the moment to consider him an England prospect. If he develops late (like Tremlett) he could be somebody to watch out for in a few years time. Should think carefully before sacrificing Ireland career if he doesn't think he can nail down an England place.

Root - England clearly have their eyes on him as a potential future Test opener. He seems to have the ability and determination but needs a breakthough year and still only has 1 FC 100.

Roy - An impressive one-day player. A level below Taylor, Bairstow, Buttler, Stokes and Maynard in my opinion but making good progress.

Vince - A very aesthetically pleasing batsman but one who isn't really delivering on his potential yet. In my opinion he'll be a good county player but fall a level below being an international player.

Stokes - Possibly the best talent in England. The injury problems have come at a bad time though and he didn't take his opportunites v India.

Root will be a class opening batsman in the future!

Some excellent points made above about Meaker. Definitely a bowler who can veer between very good and very bad. His own confidence has sometimes appeared rather fragile - but maybe with the confidence shown in him he will make a further breakthrough this season.