Mayweathers limited options

First topic message reminder :

So money can't buy you love... but it can buy you freedom, for a time.

But what decent opponents are out there? Personally I think Guerrero is neither good enough nor abig enough to be competative against Mayweather, and hasn't earned the shot IMO.

Being as it's a Mexican holiday (almost certainly booked in advance so Pac didn't get it for JMM 4) then Mayweather needs a Mexican to make big PPV>

So who is there? Canelo at 154?

Given this fight literally bought his freedom, who does Mayweather fight?

Pac has options, Bradley,Marquez or rematch with Cotto.

Mayweather, not as many options or credible ones at least.

Who should he fight?

So we agree, they favour Manny, which is why the fight has a question mark next to it.

johnson2 wrote:So we agree, they favour Manny, which is why the fight has a question mark next to it.

Nobody said they didnt favour Pacquaio. Im just saying they were there with valid reason to even up for Cottos greater natural size advantage.

What do you mean by a question mark? In my view Pacquiao beat Cotto at a 145 lb limit without any question marks whatsoever. From what I witnessed, I can say with the confidence I dont think holding the fight at 147 lb would have made much if any difference.

Pacquiao beat Hatton at 140lbs for example. Do we raise doubts if he would have beaten him at 147 lbs?

I dont see the issue with the agreed weight of 145lbs between Cotto and Pacquiao.

88Chris05 wrote:

azania wrote:what would have happened if Cotto was allowed to defend his title at 147 witout penalties.

The exact same thing, I'd imagine. And this is coming from someone who isn't a fan of catchweights at all, as I've already said.

If the 1 lb difference between Cotto's weight for that fight and his weight for his previous two made any difference at all, it was by a margin so small it could never have threatened to change the outcome of that bout had it been reversed. I think we need to concentrate on the positives here - Pacquiao's performance in that fight was superb.

I dont disagree that the result may have been the same had Cotto been allowed to fight at 147 free from financial penalties. But that is irrelevant as he was forced to fight below his optimum weight. You may say the 1lb weight made little difference, but what if he was killing himself to make 146? The extra 1lb could have been too much. Why not say an extra 2lbs would have been nothing. A enema or colonic irrigation would have sorted that out.

Paq was superb that night. Cotto not so. Credit to him that he didn't make an issue of the weight. He is not that type of person. He kept his own councel re Marg also hardly saying anything until the rematch. I bet if he were to fight Paq again, he would say something about the extra lb.

Fact is he'll fight whoever he wants and HBO will buy it!!

So he has plenty....If I was him why not take on Ortiz again or Maidana......

Mayweather sells!!! and that's the bottom line...Ortiz will sell because he has a huge Mexican following...(No better or loyal fans than the Mexicans) and everybody knows Maidana comes to fight...

Let's not forget he's just beaten Morales in a big headline fight!!!!

Sure he'll move up If the cash is right!!

Foolish to say he hasn't options....they may not be your preferable ones..

Never forget Mayweather is a big name and sells..

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:yes a fantastic win. I have never argued otherwise. But the asterix still remains because if the stip wasn't designed to be detrimental to Cotto, why ask for it? Its not as though Manny couldn't fight legit 147lbers. He fought Clottey without stips. It seems the greater the challenge, the more the weight stips come into play.

An asterix in terms of what? I could maybe understand with regards to Pacquiaos divisional record at welter weight. But not in anything else. It was an agreed weight. Not every fight has to take place at a fixed weight limit. The stipulation was in place because Cotto was much bigger than Pacquiao. Thats pretty much it. At the time Pacquiaos only welterweight fight had been beating a zombie like de la Hoya. The stipulations are to account for him givng away size.

He fought Clottey without stips......due to Clottey not being a big a threat as Cotto. The stip was to weaken Cotto and not to equalize size other wise he would have included the stip against Clottey. Moreover the financial penalties included was there to ensure cotto came in at the certain agreed weight. Great performance and fight, but what would have happened if Cotto was allowed to defend his title at 147 witout penalties.

Probably the same difference that would have happened if Mayweather had stuck to his catchweight agreement with Marquez. None at all.

We could also asterix Pacquiaos last fight against Marquez on the basis that Marquez was operating at a catchweight? Who knows what would have happened if Pacquiao could have weighed in an extra pound or two heavier like he did against Mosely and Margarito.

No asterix because Paq volunteered to fight at a weight he was comfortable with and at a weight given JMM@s last fight up there, he was not. Paq being a small guy has run out of excuses the moment he agreed to fight Clottey at full WW limit. If Floyd was a young up and coming upstart at 147, you can bet your last dollar that the "oh he is small" excuse would be used =by team Paq to make Floyd fight at a weight below his best fighting weight. The weisht stip I repeat was not to equalise things because Paq is small. It was done to weaken Cotto. He fought Oscar at 147. No excuses for forcing Cotto to fight at 145. Its all to create an advantage for himself and to weaken the opponent. He can do it because of the money he brings. He cant do it with Floyd.

johnson2 wrote:Have to say I agree with AZ on this one. The reason the fight was at 145 was to favour Manny, to suggest otherwise doesnt make sense.

We'll never know how much of a difference those couple of pounds made (for the record I dont think they mean a great deal) but the fight will always have a question mark next to it because Manny (or his team) wanted the extra 2lb off....

Add the the whole situation where Freddie says they wont fight a pre mayweather Mosely at 147 because he is too big, and the fact he fought Clottey at 147 it certainly does make one think.

manos de piedra wrote:

johnson2 wrote:So we agree, they favour Manny, which is why the fight has a question mark next to it.

Nobody said they didnt favour Pacquaio. Im just saying they were there with valid reason to even up for Cottos greater natural size advantage.

What do you mean by a question mark? In my view Pacquiao beat Cotto at a 145 lb limit without any question marks whatsoever. From what I witnessed, I can say with the confidence I dont think holding the fight at 147 lb would have made much if any difference.

Pacquiao beat Hatton at 140lbs for example. Do we raise doubts if he would have beaten him at 147 lbs?

I dont see the issue with the agreed weight of 145lbs between Cotto and Pacquiao.

Nonsense.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Fact is he'll fight whoever he wants and HBO will buy it!!

So he has plenty....If I was him why not take on Ortiz again or Maidana......

Mayweather sells!!! and that's the bottom line...Ortiz will sell because he has a huge Mexican following...(No better or loyal fans than the Mexicans) and everybody knows Maidana comes to fight...

Let's not forget he's just beaten Morales in a big headline fight!!!!

Sure he'll move up If the cash is right!!

Foolish to say he hasn't options....they may not be your preferable ones

Never forget Mayweather is a big name and sells..

Spot on.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:yes a fantastic win. I have never argued otherwise. But the asterix still remains because if the stip wasn't designed to be detrimental to Cotto, why ask for it? Its not as though Manny couldn't fight legit 147lbers. He fought Clottey without stips. It seems the greater the challenge, the more the weight stips come into play.

An asterix in terms of what? I could maybe understand with regards to Pacquiaos divisional record at welter weight. But not in anything else. It was an agreed weight. Not every fight has to take place at a fixed weight limit. The stipulation was in place because Cotto was much bigger than Pacquiao. Thats pretty much it. At the time Pacquiaos only welterweight fight had been beating a zombie like de la Hoya. The stipulations are to account for him givng away size.

He fought Clottey without stips......due to Clottey not being a big a threat as Cotto. The stip was to weaken Cotto and not to equalize size other wise he would have included the stip against Clottey. Moreover the financial penalties included was there to ensure cotto came in at the certain agreed weight. Great performance and fight, but what would have happened if Cotto was allowed to defend his title at 147 witout penalties.

Probably the same difference that would have happened if Mayweather had stuck to his catchweight agreement with Marquez. None at all.

We could also asterix Pacquiaos last fight against Marquez on the basis that Marquez was operating at a catchweight? Who knows what would have happened if Pacquiao could have weighed in an extra pound or two heavier like he did against Mosely and Margarito.

No asterix because Paq volunteered to fight at a weight he was comfortable with and at a weight given JMM@s last fight up there, he was not. Paq being a small guy has run out of excuses the moment he agreed to fight Clottey at full WW limit. If Floyd was a young up and coming upstart at 147, you can bet your last dollar that the "oh he is small" excuse would be used =by team Paq to make Floyd fight at a weight below his best fighting weight. The weisht stip I repeat was not to equalise things because Paq is small. It was done to weaken Cotto. He fought Oscar at 147. No excuses for forcing Cotto to fight at 145. Its all to create an advantage for himself and to weaken the opponent. He can do it because of the money he brings. He cant do it with Floyd.

How do you know this? They basically stipulated that Cotto come in a mere pound lighter than he did for his last fight. Is that really a game breaker?

Secondly, Pacquaio stepped up to welterweight to fight de la Hoya coming from a single fight at lightweight and before that super feather. De la Hoya was a massive cash cow and this was before Pacquiao was as big a superstar as he is now so moving up was worth the pay day and associated risk. De la Hoya couldnt and wouldnt have gone any lower than 147 and the fight was seen as a massive advantage to Oscar even at that. So the circumstances are different.

Pacquiao is smaller than Cotto, that is a fact. Agreeing to fight at 145 given their respective backgrounds is still actually a decent weight advantage for Cotto. This is always pitched from the angle that Pacquiao is a fully fledged welterweight. He isnt. He was barely more than a lightweight at the time. He just fights at welter because hes got the ability to. But he could never have bothered fighting Cotto at all. I think 145 for your first real meaningful fight stepping int the division is fine. Whats more, I didnt see any signs of Cotto being weight drained. You make comments like "I dont know how in hell he managed to make 145" implying he was a walking corpse. The reality is he rarely weighed in at 147 for his welter fights and only three months earlier had weighed 146 against Clottey. Was that single pound really that massive? I dont even think he had major problems making 145 at all and a full day to rehydrate was ample.

What are weight classes other than certain limits given official status. Just because two fighters agree to fight at a limit not officially recognised isnt tantamount to one fighter being weight drained. A fighter can just as easily be weight drained making an official limit (Oscar). If Cotto was weight drained at that limit then I would devalue the win. But he wasnt as far as Im concerned. Pacquiao beat Cotto easily at 145 and from that outcome Im happy to deduce he would do the same at 147 or even 150, not that I think that even matters in any case. I cant see anything to say Cotto was weakened, nor that the stipulation was designed to weaken him as opposed to merely reduce the size disparity between them. If he was so concerned abot Cottos ability I dont think he would have made the step up to fight him at all.

My only problem was that the 147 title was put on the line at 145 which I think is a contradiction and shouldnt be allowed.

I still dont follow what is meant by question marks and asterixes. Is the implication that Cotto was weakened or would have won at 147? If so then I disagree. I think Cotto was fine, the catchweight was reasonable in the circumstances and Pacquiao would have won at 147 going off how the fight went. I view the fight as a fight at 145 pure and simple. If people want to say that has no bearing on how a 147 fight would go, then fair enough, I cat really see the argument myself anymore than saying Pacquiao beating Hatton at 140 would have no bearing on how they might fare at 147. I just think the logical conclusion from the fight is that Pacquiao was the better of the two. And meeting at 145 was half way between Cottos weight limit and Pacquiaos at the time which was perfectly acceptable.

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

johnson2 wrote:So we agree, they favour Manny, which is why the fight has a question mark next to it.

Nobody said they didnt favour Pacquaio. Im just saying they were there with valid reason to even up for Cottos greater natural size advantage.

What do you mean by a question mark? In my view Pacquiao beat Cotto at a 145 lb limit without any question marks whatsoever. From what I witnessed, I can say with the confidence I dont think holding the fight at 147 lb would have made much if any difference.

Pacquiao beat Hatton at 140lbs for example. Do we raise doubts if he would have beaten him at 147 lbs?

I dont see the issue with the agreed weight of 145lbs between Cotto and Pacquiao.

Nonsense.

Thanks for that peice of unsupported conclusion. I presume you think then that if Mayweather wanted to fight Martinez he would have to go straight to middleweight and that anything less would be "nonsense".

I recently said that Cotto moved up to Light Middleweight because of weight issues but when I tried finding a direct quote from Cotto about it I couldn't.

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

johnson2 wrote:So we agree, they favour Manny, which is why the fight has a question mark next to it.

Nobody said they didnt favour Pacquaio. Im just saying they were there with valid reason to even up for Cottos greater natural size advantage.

What do you mean by a question mark? In my view Pacquiao beat Cotto at a 145 lb limit without any question marks whatsoever. From what I witnessed, I can say with the confidence I dont think holding the fight at 147 lb would have made much if any difference.

Pacquiao beat Hatton at 140lbs for example. Do we raise doubts if he would have beaten him at 147 lbs?

I dont see the issue with the agreed weight of 145lbs between Cotto and Pacquiao.

Nonsense.

Thanks for that peice of unsupported conclusion. I presume you think then that if Mayweather wanted to fight Martinez he would have to go straight to middleweight and that anything less would be "nonsense".

Martinez is a middleweight so if you wish to face him it should be at the full limit, with 17 weight divisions there really is no need for added weight stipulations.

A pound isn't a mere pound when struggling to make weight. If so, why not another pound. Its only a mere pound.

The circumstances are similar. Manny was the cash cow and Cotto was in no position to dictate terms and weights. The size of Paq is irrelevant. I find it strange that size becomes an issue when the quality of opponent is higher. They offered SSM at some silly weight also until he was seen to be past it and took him on at 147. The Manny is small excuse is wearing thin for me. It wore thin the moment he decided to fight at 147 against Oscar, Clottey, SSM and up to 150 against Marg.

Yep Paq was a better fighter at 145. Doesn't say much seeing Cotto fights better higher than that. When you lose the weight to go down below your optimum weight, you are not losing fluid or body fat but muscle also and therefore strength.

Boxers train and diet to make their limit. That extra pound is huge. Why not 146? 145 wasn't made to equalise things. It was made to weaken Cotto. And why the financial penalties?

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

johnson2 wrote:So we agree, they favour Manny, which is why the fight has a question mark next to it.

Nobody said they didnt favour Pacquaio. Im just saying they were there with valid reason to even up for Cottos greater natural size advantage.

What do you mean by a question mark? In my view Pacquiao beat Cotto at a 145 lb limit without any question marks whatsoever. From what I witnessed, I can say with the confidence I dont think holding the fight at 147 lb would have made much if any difference.

Pacquiao beat Hatton at 140lbs for example. Do we raise doubts if he would have beaten him at 147 lbs?

I dont see the issue with the agreed weight of 145lbs between Cotto and Pacquiao.

Nonsense.

Thanks for that peice of unsupported conclusion. I presume you think then that if Mayweather wanted to fight Martinez he would have to go straight to middleweight and that anything less would be "nonsense".

Ha. Apologies. The nonsense is that there is (I can see) no valid reason in your argument. I dont for one minue believe it was to counter Cotto's natural size. That insinuates some kind of alturism. It was to weaken Cotto and give Manny an advantage.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

johnson2 wrote:So we agree, they favour Manny, which is why the fight has a question mark next to it.

Nobody said they didnt favour Pacquaio. Im just saying they were there with valid reason to even up for Cottos greater natural size advantage.

What do you mean by a question mark? In my view Pacquiao beat Cotto at a 145 lb limit without any question marks whatsoever. From what I witnessed, I can say with the confidence I dont think holding the fight at 147 lb would have made much if any difference.

Pacquiao beat Hatton at 140lbs for example. Do we raise doubts if he would have beaten him at 147 lbs?

I dont see the issue with the agreed weight of 145lbs between Cotto and Pacquiao.

Nonsense.

Thanks for that peice of unsupported conclusion. I presume you think then that if Mayweather wanted to fight Martinez he would have to go straight to middleweight and that anything less would be "nonsense".

Martinez is a middleweight so if you wish to face him it should be at the full limit, with 17 weight divisions there really is no need for added weight stipulations.

I dont agree. I think if Martinez could make light middleweight without too much difficulty then that would be the prefferable weight ot hold a fight with Mayweather at.

Obviously the boys are right that it was stipulated to give Manny an edge as was leonard-Lalonde!!

A pound is a huge amount considering most Boxers bleed as low as they can to fight at a certain weight...so they are fighting guys of similar size and power..

Fighting Martinez at 154lbs would only be advantageous to Mayweather so don't see the need for it, if Mayweather is good enough to beat him then the weight shouldn't matter.

azania wrote:A pound isn't a mere pound when struggling to make weight. If so, why not another pound. Its only a mere pound.

The circumstances are similar. Manny was the cash cow and Cotto was in no position to dictate terms and weights. The size of Paq is irrelevant. I find it strange that size becomes an issue when the quality of opponent is higher. They offered SSM at some silly weight also until he was seen to be past it and took him on at 147. The Manny is small excuse is wearing thin for me. It wore thin the moment he decided to fight at 147 against Oscar, Clottey, SSM and up to 150 against Marg.

Yep Paq was a better fighter at 145. Doesn't say much seeing Cotto fights better higher than that. When you lose the weight to go down below your optimum weight, you are not losing fluid or body fat but muscle also and therefore strength.

Boxers train and diet to make their limit. That extra pound is huge. Why not 146? 145 wasn't made to equalise things. It was made to weaken Cotto. And why the financial penalties?

Ok so what you are basically saying is that Cotto was weakened/drained. I havent seen or heard any evidece of this and I think his move to light middleweight was beause he had few options at welterweight and more opportunities at light middleweight. Even at light middleweight I would surprised if he weighs in on the limit there.

Your giving Pacquiao almost no leeway for being the guy coming up multiple divisions. He is a smaller fighter than Cotto. By a fair amount. Hes rally a lightweight masquerading as a welterweight. He weighs in around 144 pound without even cutting weight. I dont see how you can fail to acknowledge this. 145 was a decent half way mark to meet. Like I say, 1 meagre pound less than he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. If you want to attach great significance to that then I guess thats your opinion but I see it as being mainly irrelevant and I think you are overplaying the weight issues Cotto had, of which there is very little evidence of. Did he look weight drained? Did he act weight drained? Did he complain of being weight drained? Is it likely he was weight drained? All no's for me.

With so many weight divisions there is no need for catchweights.

Manos you are right about Cotto he isn't a big light middleweight. He asked for a catchweight of 150lbs for the Margarito fight but had to settle for 153lbs because Margarito was going to walk away from the fight.

It's very harsh on Pacquiao his win over Cotto was an excellent win. Cotto is being touted for a rematch with Pacquiao where he would need to drop back down to 147lbs so I don't think it is fair to say the catchweight played any part in Pacquiaos victory.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Fighting Martinez at 154lbs would only be advantageous to Mayweather so don't see the need for it, if Mayweather is good enough to beat him then the weight shouldn't matter.

Well it would be accomodating a big size difference between the two. You have to draw the line somewhere. The size advantage Martinez would hold over Mayweather would be gigantic to the point rendering skill level almost obsolete for Mayweather so I think he needs Martinez to step down in order to make the fight fair.

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Fighting Martinez at 154lbs would only be advantageous to Mayweather so don't see the need for it, if Mayweather is good enough to beat him then the weight shouldn't matter.

Well it would be accomodating a big size difference between the two. You have to draw the line somewhere. The size advantage Martinez would hold over Mayweather would be gigantic to the point rendering skill level almost obsolete for Mayweather so I think he needs Martinez to step down in order to make the fight fair.

In which case he's not good enough to beat Martinez at 100% which devalues any possible win.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:With so many weight divisions there is no need for catchweights.

Why? Mayweather is a lightweight or even a featherweight going on welterweight. Martinez is a welter weight going on middleweight. For the two to meet in fair conditions a balance should surely be struck. Welter would have been ideal a few years ago when both could operate there but as it is now you have a sizeable difference. Is light middleweight considered a catchweight in any event? To me it represents a fair meeting point. If the fight was announced I would far rather see it at 154 than 160.

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:With so many weight divisions there is no need for catchweights.

Why? Mayweather is a lightweight or even a featherweight going on welterweight. Martinez is a welter weight going on middleweight. For the two to meet in fair conditions a balance should surely be struck. Welter would have been ideal a few years ago when both could operate there but as it is now you have a sizeable difference. Is light middleweight considered a catchweight in any event? To me it represents a fair meeting point. If the fight was announced I would far rather see it at 154 than 160.

What makes it an intriguing match up is the size difference, take that away and you're not left with much, beating Martinez at Middleweight means a lot beating him at a catchweight means far less.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Fighting Martinez at 154lbs would only be advantageous to Mayweather so don't see the need for it, if Mayweather is good enough to beat him then the weight shouldn't matter.

Well it would be accomodating a big size difference between the two. You have to draw the line somewhere. The size advantage Martinez would hold over Mayweather would be gigantic to the point rendering skill level almost obsolete for Mayweather so I think he needs Martinez to step down in order to make the fight fair.

In which case he's not good enough to beat Martinez at 100% which devalues any possible win.

Not big enough would be my view.

To be honest don't think you can ever legitimise a catchweight.

Ok so what you are basically saying is that Cotto was weakened/drained. I havent seen or heard any evidece of this and I think his move to light middleweight was beause he had few options at welterweight and more opportunities at light middleweight. Even at light middleweight I would surprised if he weighs in on the limit there.

Your giving Pacquiao almost no leeway for being the guy coming up multiple divisions. He is a smaller fighter than Cotto. By a fair amount. Hes rally a lightweight masquerading as a welterweight. He weighs in around 144 pound without even cutting weight. I dont see how you can fail to acknowledge this. 145 was a decent half way mark to meet. Like I say, 1 meagre pound less than he voluntarily weighed against Clottey. If you want to attach great significance to that then I guess thats your opinion but I see it as being mainly irrelevant and I think you are overplaying the weight issues Cotto had, of which there is very little evidence of. Did he look weight drained? Did he act weight drained? Did he complain of being weight drained? Is it likely he was weight drained? All no's for me. .

Bottom line is that I dont know if he was weakened or not. But it is safe to say that the weight stip was not there to compensate for Manny being the smaller guy, but to weaken Cotto. Roach has stated that "why should he give the other guy an advantage" when (on youtube) referring to SSM and fighting him at full WW limit.

I have given credit to Pac in this fight. He fought a terrific fight and won fair and square.....with weight stips. He didn't beat Cotto at his optimum. Not saying he wouldn't have done so at 147.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:To be honest don't think you can ever legitimise a catchweight.

Why? What makes a weight a weight? Whats the difference in two fighters agreeing to fight at 160 or agreeing to fight at 155? The only difference is one is an official weight limit and one ist.

Well Martinez fights at 160lbs and not 155lbs, fight at the full weight or don't bother fighting at all.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Well Martinez fights at 160lbs and not 155lbs, fight at the full weight or don't bother fighting at all.

But if he moved back to 154 he would be fighting at 154. If he moved to 168 he would be fighting at 168. If he moves back down to light middleweight whats the issue?

Does he fight at 154lbs? No, that's the issue, he fights at 160lbs.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Does he fight at 154lbs? No, that's the issue, he fights at 160lbs.

He said he would fight Mayweather at 154, he said he would fight Cotto at 154 so I dont see what you are getting at. If he wants to drop a division to fight another opponent then hes well able to. Hes not exclusively at 160 fighter.

Up to him but a fight with Martinez at 154lbs will mean far less than one at 160lbs.

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:With so many weight divisions there is no need for catchweights.

Why? Mayweather is a lightweight or even a featherweight going on welterweight. Martinez is a welter weight going on middleweight. For the two to meet in fair conditions a balance should surely be struck.

Well, my answer to that would be fairly straightforward: if someone is clearly too big / heavy or small / light for you, don't fight them, simple as that. I do see your point that the weights are, to an extent, just numbers, but the fact is that the rules and weight divisions are in place for a reason. This isn't the days of eight weight classes anymore. Back then, catchweight fights were far more understandable. But there are seventeen now - enough to eradicate the need for catchweights, don't you think? If we do as you allude to and basically just discard the concept of the existing weight classes, we'd be proclaiming different world champions at 151 lb, 152 lb, 153 lb and so on.

I don't see Mayweather / Martinez simply wanting the fight as a reason for justifying a catchweight, either. Jones Jr said he wanted to fight Holyfield / Moorer in 1997, for instance. Would anyone really have wanted Jones to ask for a catchweight of, say, 195 lb in the interests of 'balance', or be impressed if he had?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Up to him but a fight with Martinez at 154lbs will mean far less than one at 160lbs.

But it will still probably be the biggest win of his career. Are you saying theres no point in Mayweather fighting Martinez at 154, that the fight has to be 160 or nothing?

What if Martinez challenged Alvarez for his 154 title? Would that win be devalued for Alvarez?

If Mayweather would beat Martinez at 160 it would be phenomenal, but it still doesnt make a win over him at 154 anything other than pretty special either.

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Up to him but a fight with Martinez at 154lbs will mean far less than one at 160lbs.

But it will still probably be the biggest win of his career. Are you saying theres no point in Mayweather fighting Martinez at 154, that the fight has to be 160 or nothing?

What if Martinez challenged Alvarez for his 154 title? Would that win be devalued for Alvarez?

If Mayweather would beat Martinez at 160 it would be phenomenal, but it still doesnt make a win over him at 154 anything other than pretty special either.

Martinez is the middleweight world champion, fighting him at a lower weight means far less. He has looked far more impressive at 160lbs than he ever did at 154lbs.

88Chris05 wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:With so many weight divisions there is no need for catchweights.

Why? Mayweather is a lightweight or even a featherweight going on welterweight. Martinez is a welter weight going on middleweight. For the two to meet in fair conditions a balance should surely be struck.

Well, my answer to that would be fairly straightforward: if someone is clearly too big / heavy or small / light for you, don't fight them, simple as that. I do see your point that the weights are, to an extent, just numbers, but the fact is that the rules and weight divisions are in place for a reason. This isn't the days of eight weight classes anymore. Back then, catchweight fights were far more understandable. But there are seventeen now - enough to eradicate the need for catchweights, don't you think? If we do as you allude to and basically just discard the concept of the existing weight classes, we'd be proclaiming different world champions at 151 lb, 152 lb, 153 lb and so on.

I don't see Mayweather / Martinez simply wanting the fight as a reason for justifying a catchweight, either. Jones Jr said he wanted to fight Holyfield / Moorer in 1997, for instance. Would anyone really have wanted Jones to ask for a catchweight of, say, 195 lb in the interests of 'balance', or be impressed if he had?

Its not always clear. In many cases its dependant. Martinez is a guy that can operate across several weights so selecting the most evenely matched one of those to fight him in is pretty much the best option.

Martinez might be too big at middleweight, he might not be at light middleweight. He can fight in both divisions. So why not fight him at light middleweight?

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Up to him but a fight with Martinez at 154lbs will mean far less than one at 160lbs.

But it will still probably be the biggest win of his career. Are you saying theres no point in Mayweather fighting Martinez at 154, that the fight has to be 160 or nothing?

What if Martinez challenged Alvarez for his 154 title? Would that win be devalued for Alvarez?

If Mayweather would beat Martinez at 160 it would be phenomenal, but it still doesnt make a win over him at 154 anything other than pretty special either.

If he asked Martinez to put the 160lb title on the line then it would be.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Up to him but a fight with Martinez at 154lbs will mean far less than one at 160lbs.

But it will still probably be the biggest win of his career. Are you saying theres no point in Mayweather fighting Martinez at 154, that the fight has to be 160 or nothing?

What if Martinez challenged Alvarez for his 154 title? Would that win be devalued for Alvarez?

If Mayweather would beat Martinez at 160 it would be phenomenal, but it still doesnt make a win over him at 154 anything other than pretty special either.

Martinez is the middleweight world champion, fighting him at a lower weight means far less. He has looked far more impressive at 160lbs than he ever did at 154lbs.

Beating him at 154 might mean far less than beating him at 160, but its still a massive win and better than any other of Mayweathers wins. Are you saying if the two agreed to fight at light middleweight you would be against the fight?

Lets go back 30 years and get Duran to fight Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez and Barkley at catchweights just to even things up a bit. A great fighter tries to fight the best at their best not try and gain advantages in the negotiations.

Sorry Manos, let me clarify as I didn't word my last comment all that well!

My opening line with the 'if he's too big / heavy' dictum wasn't directed purely at Mayweather-Martinez, it was merely to state my apathy towards catchweights in the broadest sense. As I said, I don't think a catchweight can be justified simply because two fighters want to fight each other; Mayweather-Martinez, however, was simply an example I plucked off the top of my head.

If the two did meet at 154 lb, there would be absolutely no complaints from me, provided that the Middleweight title wasn't on the line.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Lets go back 30 years and get Duran to fight Leonard, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez and Barkley at catchweights just to even things up a bit. A great fighter tries to fight the best at their best not try and gain advantages in the negotiations.

Id have prefered to see Duran v Hearns/Benetiz at welter if possible. But that is somewhat beside the point. A fight doesnt have to be ideal or pitch perfect to be a great win. If Mayweather beat Martinez at light middleweight it would be a fantstic win. That its not as good as beating him at 160 doesnt change that for me.

My point was Manos, a great fighter which Mayweather is fights the best without trying to negotiate an advantage.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My point was Manos, a great fighter which Mayweather is fights the best without trying to negotiate an advantage.

I think Mayweathers far more opportunistic than that. If theres an advantage to be had he will be happy to take it. Demanding extra stipulations for testing against Pacquiao or refusing to stick to his catchweight agreement against Marquez for example.

The reason he wouldnt take Martinez on be it 154 or 160 is because its too much of a risk. Not some moral issue about negotiating Martinez down a weight.

I accept your point that beating Martinez at 154 would not be as impressive as at 160, but it would still be a fight well worth making and a massive win for Mayweather. If one tries hard enough almost any win can be devalued on some level but I dont think it means that every fight should have to be a pitch perfect one. I mean I would have viewed Mayweather v Martinez at 154 as a more formidable fight and better achievement than the likes of Mosely, Ortiz, Hatton, Marquez etc simply because it would be a far harder fight to win.

My main issue would be that Martinez has been at middleweight for 3 years now so despite him saying he can make the weight how comfortable would he really be, he's going to end up rehydrating to roughly the same weight so all you're doing is trying to drain every ounce you can out of him.

The greats with the exception of Leonard didn't stipulate such things by and large so i'm not really willing to allow Mayweather or Pacquiao any leeway for it.

Apparently Guerrero is close to being named as the opponent for Floyd.

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/boxing/post/_/id/842/report-floyd-mayweather-to-fight-robert-guerrero

Manos, If Ghosty and I are in total agreement, reason says we are correct.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:My main issue would be that Martinez has been at middleweight for 3 years now so despite him saying he can make the weight how comfortable would he really be, he's going to end up rehydrating to roughly the same weight so all you're doing is trying to drain every ounce you can out of him.

The greats with the exception of Leonard didn't stipulate such things by and large so i'm not really willing to allow Mayweather or Pacquiao any leeway for it.

But if Martinez is at middle he will be cutting down to make that andd rehydrating up even further. The weight is a risk, but he was only 157 or 158 if I remember rightly for the Barker fight so I doubt its problematic. If it transpired he was a walking corpse then obviously the win gets seriously devalued but I dont think its likely to be the case.

I dont really view meeting at 154 as much a stipulation as simply agreeing to fight at another (recognised) weight that both can make. I think Martinez is at middleweight because thats where the better fights for him were. I think thats why Pacquiao is at welter. With so many divisions now I think fighters, especially below middleweight are reasonably flexible across a number of divisions. If Mayweather did fight and beat Martinez at 154 it would be a major win as well as one of the toughest fights out there for him. Thats the main point for me. It seems your way of thinking would be seem more likely to reward Mayweather for taking an easier fight at welterweight than a much tougher one at light middleweight using the criteria with Martinez? Which would enhance Mayweather legacy more? Surely the win over Martinez would be a far greater moment legacy wise than any of his welterweight wins, not withstanding it might not be Martinez best weight.

Apparently Pacquiao is going to tell Arum that he wants Mayweather next, its all over the internet... They are meeting on Tuesday, so fingers crossed!

We all know Pacquiao wants the fight, its Bob Arum who is scared.

Whether it's 154lbs or 160lbs Martinez is still going to rehydrate up to 167lbs, lets be honest thats roughly the same as Ortiz so saying a catchweight evens things up really doesn't wash.