Will Lewis's win over Vitali raise his ATG status.

Lennox Lewis is an contentious issue with fans and critics alike. I have Lewis above Holmes in an all time heavyweight list but I know many will argue against that. Some experts don't even have Lewis in the top ten which I find dubious to say the least, but one fight might in future propel Lewis higher and thats his win over Vitali.

Now I know the fight ended controversially but he still won. Vitali can only complain about the finale to the fight but I had Lewis winning by a couple of rounds before the stoppage. People slate Vitali based on the names on his record and the state of the division that he has ruled for years now but in time I believe we will look back and rightfully recognise one of the most dominant heavyweight champions ever. So where do we rank Lewis's win over him???

Lets face it NOBODY has troubled Vitali in the ring since that fight. It was close, back and forth, but when have we ever said that about a Vitali fight since? So my question is if that win for Lewis will raise his profile, should it, and how do you rate it??

You only gave Vitali two rounds in that? Personally I dont think Vitali can have any complaints about the finale of the fight. I think he can feel a little aggreived not to have the chance at a rematch but I dont see how he could complain the stoppage was not correct.

I think the Klitschkos, provided no extraordinary collapse occurs, will be held in greater esteem over time. Id expect them to break into the top 15 heavyweights of all time. But I think the fight was long enough ago and Lewis is retired long enough now that the Vitali fight is already considered when people rank him. It doesnt have any bearing on how I rank him now anyhow. Lewis wont climb any higher on my list regardless of what Vitali does over the next couple of years really.

I think the win will always have a kind of stigma over it due to the circumstances of it being short notice and Lewis being behind. It was a legitimate win but not neccessarily a convincing or satisfying one.

Yes and no ONETWO mate.....Yes his name looks good on his record but anybody who saw the fight saw a less than convincing cut eye stoppage with Lewis losing on the HBO scorecard....They probably also saw the interview with Merchant after!!!!

He failed to prove he was the better man and the fact he retired before Vitali 2... kind of is another tick in the no it doesn't box..

But it depends on who's opinions will raise or lower it....

Same reason but a different explanation as Truss, the name looks good on his record but who exactly was Vitali Klitschko at the time of the fight?

For the record I had Vitali ahead by 2 rounds when it was stopped. I'm not convinced it should have been stopped either. Yes they were bad cuts in fact they were 2 of the worst cuts I've ever seen but Vitali was still fighting and was landing some good shots.

I think it is Lewis's best win. When you take into account it was a fight at short notice and Lewis was at the end of his days and out of shape.

I think in 10 years times the Klitschkos will be looked on more favourably than they are now especially Vitali. So it may well enhance lewis's reputation.

I had him one up Sugar boy...but I disagree with you about the cut...

Had to be stopped or his career would've been ruined...horrible cut..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I had him one up Sugar boy...but I disagree with you about the cut...

Had to be stopped or his career would've been ruined...horrible cut..

Don't see how a cut on your eyebrow can ruin your career, especially as klitschko was still throwing and landing more punches so his vision was not impaired that much.

Klitschko was winning by 2 rounds on the judges score cards. klitschko also had short notice for the fight. There was no rematch. The fight does not look good for Lewis. He could never turn around in an interview and list klitschko as one of his greatest victories.

I think the fact there was no rematch is a sign that lewis knew klitschko would beat him.

Or the fact he was at the end of his career and clearly didn't have the hunger for it? I wonder which it is.

Don't think it's a great win because I don't think Vitali was great but it's like saying Taylor wasn't one of Chavez's greatest victories because he was behind on the cards, a cuts stoppage is just as legitimate as a knockout or decision.

Lewis clearly had no motivation to go on. He was out of shape and he could have fought Roy Jones Jr which would have made good money but he chose to retire.

I think, as others have said, Vitali was perhaps (but not definitely) Lewis' best 'result', but the circumstances and quality of his performance that night prevent it from being his greatest win or moment. That said, it certainly adds to his allure that he scored a win of any kind over a man who has subsequently proven himself to be a very fine Heavyweight belt holder in his own right.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Lewis clearly had no motivation to go on. He was out of shape and he could have fought Roy Jones Jr which would have made good money but he chose to retire.

having no motivation is lewis's problem. You can't use that as an excuse for the klitschko rematch. Being out of shape is lewis's problem.

Jones would not have gone near Lewis. If Jones was going to fight a big name heavy it would have been Tyson or Holyfield.

I watched the HBO braodcast of the fight a couple of months ago and Jones said on that there had been talks about it.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:I watched the HBO braodcast of the fight a couple of months ago and Jones said on that there had been talks about it.

He had talks with Holyfield and Tyson aswell. Jones knew he had no chance against Lewis. Huge mismatch. He might have had a shot at ageing versions of Tyson and Holyfield who were smaller and had seen better days but he wouldnt have gone near a 250lb Lewis who was the top guy in the division. Its not surprising he went back down to light heavyweight.

Suicide - nothing else - a faded Tyson, or Holyfield, Maybe he can out point their movement by then was almost nthing. Lewis at that stage decks him in 3 or 4 rounds if that with possible permanent consequences.

Vitali Klitschko was out on his feet in the 6th round...No doubt in my mind Lewis was going to knock him out within a couple of more rounds and end the myth of Vitali's so called granite chin.

The stoppage saved Vitali's invincible image...He gets let off for his two losses and I dont know why.

Quit against Byrd and got stopped by Lewis...no controversy as far im concerned.

manos de piedra wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:I watched the HBO braodcast of the fight a couple of months ago and Jones said on that there had been talks about it.

He had talks with Holyfield and Tyson aswell. Jones knew he had no chance against Lewis. Huge mismatch. He might have had a shot at ageing versions of Tyson and Holyfield who were smaller and had seen better days but he wouldnt have gone near a 250lb Lewis who was the top guy in the division. Its not surprising he went back down to light heavyweight.

I never knew he had held talks with yson and Holyfield. I only got the HBO broadcast a couple of months ago and that was the first time I heard of the talks with Lewis.

I think a fairer way is to compare to other boxers and their wins that could question the rise in their ATG status....

Would Pacquioa's 'wins' over Marquez, Clottey, Cotto, DLH, Mosely, Diaz and Margarito raise his? More then likely

Would PBF's wins over Mosely, Marquez and if it comes off Guerrero raise his? More then likely

Did DLH wins over JCC, Whitaker and Sturms rais his? Overall yes

Did Hattons wins over pretty much everyone other then Tszyu raise hise? without question of a doubt

Did Joe Calzaghe's 95% of his reign fighting nobodies then his wins over a past it RJJ and an old BH that is still questioned today raise his? yep!

I would say out of all the examples given and all stipulations and circumstances with the fight and fighters and what the opponents went on to achieve AFTER they fought who i've used that Lewis by far has less to worry about and proved more in that fight then any of the above fighting those who i've mentioned

To be honest if the cut hadn't happened I feel the fight could have swung either way, I watched this fight a few months ago and had it even 3-3 on rounds for me. Lewis was completely out of shape and was gassing badly, but Vitali was gassing as well, impossible to say how the fight would have gone, could have seen either of them being knocked out at that point, Lewis took some good shots for a bloke that often gets criticised for having "No chin"

lovely_london wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Lewis clearly had no motivation to go on. He was out of shape and he could have fought Roy Jones Jr which would have made good money but he chose to retire.

having no motivation is lewis's problem. You can't use that as an excuse for the klitschko rematch. Being out of shape is lewis's problem.

Of course you can use that as an excuse, why take a fight when you know you're not going to be 100%?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

lovely_london wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:Lewis clearly had no motivation to go on. He was out of shape and he could have fought Roy Jones Jr which would have made good money but he chose to retire.

having no motivation is lewis's problem. You can't use that as an excuse for the klitschko rematch. Being out of shape is lewis's problem.

Of course you can use that as an excuse, why take a fight when you know you're not going to be 100%?

Like I said it cannot be used as an excuse as to why Lewis never fought a rematch. Lewis knew he would lose end of.

You cant use Vitalis fight with lewis to help lewis get an atg. If Vitali beats chisora and then retires and then chisora becomes the greatest fighter and is unbeaten for 10 years you cant then say vitali should be an atg because he beat him.

When lewis faced vitali, vitali was a nobody who was a massive underdog. If lewis face Vitali in 2005 or in 2008 then yes i would be a massive win for lewis but the fact in 2003 Vitali was a nobody and he only lost on cuts and was ahead in the fight means it will not help lewis.

And how can you sy vitali was going to get knocked out? In the last round he landed more punches and more power shots. hardly a sign of him gassing.

It's not the end of, Lewis was struggling to prepare for fights so why on earth would he carry on fighting when he knew this?

Why did we open this can of worms.... Any cut that needs 60 stitches to close is a good stoppage.

BoxingFan88 wrote:Why did we open this can of worms.... Any cut that needs 60 stitches to close is a good stoppage.

not arguing about the stoppage. Just thought I would educate some people who somehow believed klitschko was getting schooled even though klitschko was winning the fight and landing more punches including power punches in EVERY round.

I judge a fight by watching it rather than looking at the punch stats.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I judge a fight by watching it rather than looking at the punch stats.

The judges watched the fight and had klitschko winning by 2 rounds. Klitschko was clearly ahead in that fight. Lewis came back stronger in the last 2 rounds but he still took a lot of punches from klitschko.

I suggest you watch the fight again

Exactly he was coming on strong, you make out as if he clearly lost all six rounds and got lucky which is not the case.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Exactly he was coming on strong, you make out as if he clearly lost all six rounds and got lucky which is not the case.

Someone said that Klitschko was gassing it and was only a matter of time before he was going to be knocked out. How can this be true when he was winning the fight and landing more shots in EVERY round? Even in the last round Klitschko was the busier fighter and landed more shots including powershots.

Klitschko was clearly winning the fight and the fight ended in a very bad way ( a cut stoppage).

But onto the original point i don't think Lewis could ever use the klitschko fight as a reason to give him atg status. klitschko at the time was a nobody who was a massive underdog in the fight.

Again you're using the statisitics to suggest Vitali wasn't gassing, having watched the fight numerous times seems clear to me he is and Lewis was finding his range with far more consistency, a knockout seemed fairly likely. A cuts stoppage is a fully legitimate way of winning.

London - have you actually watched the fights more then once? Klitschko was clearly slowing down from the 1st four rounds and I'm sorry but using statistics to justify your argument in this case just is not cutting it.

Vit may have been throwing more but the quality in these punches especially in the last 2 rounds of the fight were nowhere near the standard Lewis was dishing out. Lewis was using effective punching with devastating effect - mainly focusing on that mammoth of a cut over Vitali's eye.

By the time of the stoppage Lewis was grabbing hold of the fight and starting to come out on top - the power shots he was throwing were starting to take their effect and they were getting through more and more.

If you have watched any of Lewis's career you will routinely see how great a finisher he is and how he picks his shots to have maximum effect rather then swarming in when a fighter is in trouble - just look at the Golota fight

This fight will be looked back on as an aged un motivated greats last fight where he took on an oponent who showed hunger, strength and determination who went on to dominate the world heavyweights for the next decade. Unfortunately for you those things do matter and add bearing to the win because of the feats Vitali has accomplished shows what type of fighter he really is

Had Vitali gone on and lost every meaningful fight he had after then you know damn well we all would be looking back at that performance and really questioning how good Lewis was for losing 'four' rounds against him

Seriously it beggers belief that people still cant grasp that boxing matches are 12 round fights....

If we discounted every fight were someone was stopped when they were ahead it would be pretty crazy, Vitali lost, plain and simple. He and everyone else should get over it.

A few misconceptions here. Lewis was a huge favourite, becasue he always was, but there had been clamour for a fight with vitali for a while and he was considered a genuine threat by those in the know. The fight he'd been 'training' for, was hardly a tester on paper and vitali was a far greater challenge... frankly i was shocked he took the fight.

The fight itself showed lewis not looking in great condition, and was a to and fro affair. Both fighters looked knackered to me, if anything lewis was starting to come on stronger but i don't see how anyone can say for sure how the fight would have ended without the cut.

For that reason i was disappointed lewis didn't take a rematch to prove who the better man was, but i can understand if he didn't have the motivation to do so... or if he felt he didn't have the legs anymore. No shame in that at his age.

I saw enough though to think that a fully motivated and conditioned lewis from a few years earlier would have had too much for vitali.

Both K bros will, imo, rise dramatically up the atg rankings when they retire. Vitali in particular, though a lesser boxer than wlad, would be a tough nights work for any heavy in history, on his physicality alone

milkyboy wrote:

Both K bros will, imo, rise dramatically up the atg rankings when they retire. Vitali in particular, though a lesser boxer than wlad, would be a tough nights work for any heavy in history, on his physicality alone

Tend to agree milky, think you only have to look at the chasing pack to imagine it might be a case of you don't know what you've got till its gone because if on the back of the brothers retiring we have to endure a good number of years watching the likes of Helenius, Fury and Chisora playing pass the parcel with the title is easy to see us looking on the brothers with a far greater level of affection than seems to be the case now.

I think its tough to rate them fairly jeff... on the one hand, if they're so dominant for so long, there is a fair argument to say they are just too big/good for everyone, and some of the other contenders that have come and gone, might have seemed alright without the k bros on the scene. A bit of a stretch i know.

There's also the counter argument that, heavyweight boxing no longer has the draw it once did, especially in the states where historically the great champions have come from, and that there is a desperate dearth of talent.

My feeling is that there is an element of both.

Holes makes almost everyone's top 10, and many's top 5. If you took larry holmes out of the late 70's early 80's scene and replace him with vk, does anyone think his record wouldn't read like larry's?

A mugs game these atg rankings but we love em.

It is tricky Milky, I find myself defending Wlad in particular quite a lot on here but even I have the nagging doubt there is an element of "in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king" about his tenure because the contenders out there are so god awful. It is such a pity there is not a fighter capable of pushing Wlad or taking him out of his jab, right hand routine to see how he adapts, but can't blame him for the weaknesses of others I suppose.

I'm pretty neutral when it comes to Lewis.

Too many disinterested and lack lustre performances from him to convince me that he belongs to la crème de la crème, but far too good a fighter to leave out of a top ten.

As a neutral I can't help but feel that lovely_london has an agenda against Lennox. It's simply ludicrous to condemn him for having been a couple of rounds down, or having shipped more punches than Klitschko. If I had a pound for every time a fighter came on to win after a slow start I'd be a wealthy man, and as to the number of punches landed, what would london conclude from Ali v Foreman? Foreman landed considerably more punches than Ali did, but Ali's punches were snappier, more accurate and, ultimately, more damaging.

Lennox Lewis beat Vitali Klitschko. Vitali Klitschko went on to be a very good and dominant heavyweight champion.

Whether lovely_london likes it or not.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Yes his name looks good on his record but anybody who saw the fight saw a less than convincing cut eye stoppage with Lewis losing on the HBO scorecard

You kidding right beefster? That was a horrific cut over his eye. I remember seeing one or two pictures of it at the end of the fight. It was in a right mess.

rowley wrote:It is tricky Milky, I find myself defending Wlad in particular quite a lot on here but even I have the nagging doubt there is an element of "in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king" about his tenure because the contenders out there are so god awful. It is such a pity there is not a fighter capable of pushing Wlad or taking him out of his jab, right hand routine to see how he adapts, but can't blame him for the weaknesses of others I suppose.

Anyone think that fat tub of lard, Solis, could challenge the K-bots if he gets himself into shape.

Possibly Johnson but you will never write a bigger if than the one that is in your comment, he is no kid and thus far has shown no real inclination to do so.

Think Solis seems to be one of the most overrated Heavy's around, he had a decent relatively competetive 1st round with Vitali, and was then knocked out, but because the knockout was contentious and possibly just due to him injuring his knee or ankle or whatever he is rated higher because he had a decent 2 minutes and 30 seconds against Vitali.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Think Solis seems to be one of the most overrated Heavy's around, he had a decent relatively competetive 1st round with Vitali, and was then knocked out, but because the knockout was contentious and possibly just due to him injuring his knee or ankle or whatever he is rated higher because he had a decent 2 minutes and 30 seconds against Vitali.

He was highly rated well before the Vitali fight. Its was based on an outstanding amateur pedigree and pretty good start to his pro career, albeit against limited enough opposition. The guy is definately very talented.

His loss to Vitali was a legitimate leg injury that hes still out with at this time. That was the reason for his loss to Vitali.

HumanWindmill wrote:I'm pretty neutral when it comes to Lewis.

Too many disinterested and lack lustre performances from him to convince me that he belongs to la crème de la crème, but far too good a fighter to leave out of a top ten.

As a neutral I can't help but feel that lovely_london has an agenda against Lennox. It's simply ludicrous to condemn him for having been a couple of rounds down, or having shipped more punches than Klitschko. If I had a pound for every time a fighter came on to win after a slow start I'd be a wealthy man, and as to the number of punches landed, what would london conclude from Ali v Foreman? Foreman landed considerably more punches than Ali did, but Ali's punches were snappier, more accurate and, ultimately, more damaging.

Lennox Lewis beat Vitali Klitschko. Vitali Klitschko went on to be a very good and dominant heavyweight champion.

Whether lovely_london likes it or not.

But the point is the fight was stopped early due to cuts so we don´t know who would have won. All we can do is look at the fight and see who was better and it is clear that Vitali was the better performer.

No way you can say Lewis was dominating when he received more punches. Vitali was so dominant in the first 4 rounds that because he was less dominant in the last 2 you think lewis was winning. Lewis was still taking more hits just it was less hits than the first 4 rounds.

I didn't say that Lewis was winning.

Lennox Lewis W TKO6

No amount of "Yeah, but..." is going to change that.

No doubt you would score this Klitschko UD on your prediction league hey union.

milkyboy wrote:
Holes makes almost everyone's top 10, and many's top 5. If you took larry holmes out of the late 70's early 80's scene and replace him with vk, does anyone think his record wouldn't read like larry's?

A mugs game these atg rankings but we love em.

A few things to point out.

1. Holmes never lost to rubbish
2. His opposition whilst not brilliant was of a higher standard than that of either brother
3. I'm not convinced Wlad beats everyone that Holmes did but am fairly sure Holmes would have beaten all of Wlads and Vitalis opponents (Lewis aside) especially Purrity, Sanders and Brewster. Much is made of Lewis' losses for instance but he at least avenged both of them, you can't say the same of Wlad with Sanders and Purrity. Vitali is a little different but then again his level of dominance isn't as high.
4. Holmes is an all round better boxer than either

so lovely jubbly, you had vitali 6 rounds up then? Most had him winning but your scorecard doesn't really suggest neutrality on the subject

Union Cane wrote:Lennox Lewis W TKO6

No amount of "Yeah, but..." is going to change that.

Exactly. Vitali's face didn't hold up. Being cut is a legitimate grounds for a stoppage. His face was sliced apart - that's all there is to it.

Vitali can feel aggrieved that Lennox ran a mile from the rematch after a pretty disrespectful post-fight presser. But in fairness to Lewis - the fight showed his intelligence. He got away with a lucky escape against Vitali - he knew he was done as a top level boxer - and he got out at the right time.

As a fan I wish he'd given Vitali his opportunity to take the HW torch onwards. As a man I can admire his reasons for calling it a day.

We constantly complain about fighters who go on too long but when you have a fighter who quits at exactly the right time you still have some complaining about it, bizarre.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlli6mvsOGU&feature=related

Go to 1 30 for the 6th round.

The last round was very close and lewis landed 2 good upper cuts but vitali landed some very good jabs and right hands. No way can anyone say based on that round that Vitali was gassing and would have been knocked out. Lewis actually looked tired for the majority of the round.

My point is that you can't use this fight to enhance lewis record because he was losing and it was a controversial ending.