Lewis or Vitali?

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I was reading another post there by onetwoforever about Lewis being an all time great he makes a very good point about the fight with Vitali. Not many people knew how good Vitali was when Lewis fought him and Lwis was expected to win easily beacuase he was a class above. So Lewis got very little credit for winning the fight even though he smashed Vitali up completely no other heavyweight has come close to doing that. Vitali became a great champ afte rLewis retired and now people know how good he was so Lewis should get more credit for that win. Imo Lewis is the second best of all time only Ali is better but some people do not have Lewis number 2 so maybe he desrves higher from those people for beating Vitali he was also at his worst that night and not in peak condition he had to take the fight at very short notice so the win showed his class to be able to beat a guy like Vitali when he was at his worst.

But I was shocked to see people that think Vitali would have won that fight if it had not been stopped did you see the guys face?? He was getting completely smashed up he was very lucky the ref stopped it or Lewis would have knocked him out he was coming on much stronger than Vitali who was starting to struggle.

The ref was spot on to stop that fight those cuts were the worst I have seen Vitalis career could have been over if it was stopped but imagine the fight was not stopped who do people think would have won? Me? I reckon Lewis would have knocked him out soon after he was coming on strong and catching Vitali with to many big shots the guy needed 60 stitches this shows how badly he was getting smashed.

He is right in some ways..People do use the fact he has a win over Vitali as a reason to show his class....

Forgetting basically how it was accomplished..

Wasn't a great win..

Dave you should have been a playwright

I see it as a legitimate but unconvincing win for Lewis much like his wins over Bruno and Mercer for example. No disputing the results, but the performances leave fuel for debate.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He is right in some ways..People do use the fact he has a win over Vitali as a reason to show his class....

Forgetting basically how it was accomplished..

Wasn't a great win..

Maybe not, but neither was Vitali's over Sanders and that fight was the start of his reign as a legitimate Champ (No offence to the WBO reign). "Sanders beat Wlad and then Vitali gained revenge." when the truth is that it was a pretty shambolic showing from Vitali after his gallant but LOSING effort against Lewis. Then he beats Williams and retires for three years. he then returns beats Samuel Peter in what has to be one of the worst defences by a reigning Champion and then feasts on a host 2nd tier HW. His latest defence is hardly going to set the World alight either.

I recall you once writing an article about fighters pulling it out of the bag, winning ugly or something along those lines and how they should still receive credit for the win. Don't the K's receieve as much credit for basically "beating whoever is put in front of them."? Funny how Lewis now seems exempt though.

Anyway, hometime for Daddy-to-be.

DAVE667 wrote:

azania wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Why do people seem to think Kirk Johnson was some kind of Hobbit? He was a genuine HW and, despite not being one of the greatest fighters ever to lace 'em up, he wasn't some pub brawler that they'd enticed into the ring with offers of a lifetime supply of pork scratchings. Yes, he has a different style to Vitali but as far as I'm aware, his gameplan would have worked along similar lines to Vitali (namely, using his fists to throw punches to head and body with a view to either outscoring Lewis or rendering him unable to continue). Not really THAT difficult for fighters to adapt is it?

Az says "on that night, Vit was the better boxer" Really? If he was the better boxer, he'd have been able to take full advantage of an overweight, lacksadaisical Lewis. As it was, he failed to dispatch his man unlike Rahman did in their first fight (and it's arguable that Lewis was just as unmotivated for that one). Also, if Vitali was the better boxer, why was he unable to get his head out of the way of Lewis's gloves or was his plan to allow Lewis to cut him so badly the fight would be stopped thus making Vitali the moral (but not the ACTUAL) winner?

So when a boxer gets cut its because the other guy is better than his is it? I remember Hatton being cut many times but the cuts weren't so bad to stop the fight. Getting cut is unfortunate. Un/lucky also. But making that cut worse takes skill. Lewis displayed enough skill to open up the cut further. Credit to him. But to say he was the better boxer because Vit was cut is far from the truth.

More excuses of lewis being lacksadaisical. What other adjective will be used? Lewis was up for the fight, getting outboxer and out punched until he got lucky.

What other one is there? Lazy seems just as suitable. Lewis was "up" for the fight? Was he really? Let's consider how he fought against the likes of Ruddock, Golota, Grant, Tua, Holyfield first time round, the Rahman rematch and even Tyson, those to me were fights where Lewis was "up for it" and then look at the performance he put in against Vitali. Lewis fights Vitali in the same way he fought Golota and you'd see a demolition of such magnitude, people would still hold the loss over Vitali to this day....oh wait, they still hold that loss against him. Crikey, imagine what it would be like if he'd be annihilated

However, I do think you're getting confused though Az, Chris Byrd was getting outboxed and outpunched until he got lucky.

Any way you look at it, Vitali Klitschko lost to Lennox lewis. Vitali was the younger, bigger fighter and STILL got beaten.

Under-prepared, un-motivated, lazy, unlucky, there's so much more. What about Holy 2nd time round? Was he lacksadaisical then too also when he squeezked a very narrow decision? Rahman rematch saw Rahman over-confident (I can pluck up excuses also) hence he lost.

Byrd didn't get lucky. Vit quit.Poor show from Vit. No excuses. Be objective for a change. Its cathartic.

Lewis 3 years previously would have beaten any version of Vit (if he was motivated that is).

It's a weird question really - where does it end ? How would Hatton have done against Pacman if he didn't get knocked out ?

Fact is Vitali's face was injured by legitimate punches.

If he had Ali's resistance to cuts, I suspect it would have gone to the cards. Lewis seemed to have warmed to the task and had got over his early wobble and Vitali is so durable that I can't see that version of Lewis stopping him.

I'll go for Lewis by controversial decision.

Prime for prime I think Lewis stops him on cuts or wins a fairly comfortable decision.

DAVE667 wrote:

azania wrote:

Seanusarrilius wrote:

azania wrote:

Seanusarrilius wrote:

azania wrote:Without the cut, Vit would have won, probably by KO. As rowley correctly said (he is occassionally correct btw lol) Vit by definition had short notice to prepare for Lewis. Cant recall who he was supposed to fight but you can be certain it wasn't someone with the calibre Lewis and definately not as tall or rangey. On that night Vit was the better boxer.

This short notice rubbbish, not like he was sitting on the sofa, he was training for an undercard fight! Idiotic to suggest he only worked half as hard in training, yeah boxers only do half the work unless they know they are fighting Lewis.

And Lewis was preparing to defend his title on the same bill against another boxer. Both had short notice. Why does it penalise Lewis but not Vit. Its either it penalises both or none.

Jesus you are stupid sometimes. I am saying it doesn't penalize Vitali or Lewis and i am countering someone using it as an excuse for Vitali losing. Vitali lost because he wasn't good enough, fact.

His skin was too tender hence he lost. Nothing to do with him not being good enough.

Good Lord....and you accuse Lewis apologists of coming up with poor excuses?

Sorry Az, but im my "Boxing Top Trumps" of pi55 poor excuses for a loss, this now usurps Manny's "I had the wrong socks on"

So it was Lewis' game plan to take a beating and then to cut him up for the win. Was that it? His skin was tender so it got cut. Nothing controversial about that. Just stating the facts as it happened. If his skin was tougher, he wouldn't have been cut or at least cut that badly.

Lewis fought one of the worst fights of his career,but a boxer works on another fighters weaknesses in this case Vital's cut and thats exactly what Lewis did opened it up by working on it.

Hard to say who wins both fighters looked spent when they walked back to the corner after the sixth,but not too many protests coming from Vitali's corner with regards to the stoppage.

I believe Lewis knew his time was coming to an end after that fight and walked away.

Nico the gman wrote:Lewis fought one of the worst fights of his career,but a boxer works on another fighters weaknesses in this case Vital's cut and thats exactly what Lewis did opened it up by working on it.

Hard to say who wins both fighters looked spent when they walked back to the corner after the sixth,but not too many protests coming from Vitali's corner with regards to the stoppage.

I believe Lewis knew his time was coming to an end after that fight and walked away.

Lewis fought the best he was allowed to fight. He looked bad because Vit was good.

Lewis looked bad because he was past his best that's why he retired and wasn't interested in a rematch.

Most people think Lewis would have stopped vitali if the fight went on tbh I agree my prediction would be that Lewis would win in the 8th or 9th round he was coming on strong and Vitali was weakening the rest of the fight would have been one sided.

Nico the gman wrote:Lewis looked bad because he was past his best that's why he retired and wasn't interested in a rematch.

He was past his best before that fight. Vit made him see sense by outperforming him on the night. Lewis knew his time was up and would probably lose a rematch. He got out. Great move by him. Protects his legacy.

Waingro wrote:Most people think Lewis would have stopped vitali if the fight went on tbh I agree my prediction would be that Lewis would win in the 8th or 9th round he was coming on strong and Vitali was weakening the rest of the fight would have been one sided.

Who are these people. Most people thought Vit would have got Lewis out of there in 10 were it not for the cut.

I can make stuff up also (quiet Oxy and windy).

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:Most people think Lewis would have stopped vitali if the fight went on tbh I agree my prediction would be that Lewis would win in the 8th or 9th round he was coming on strong and Vitali was weakening the rest of the fight would have been one sided.

Who are these people. Most people thought Vit would have got Lewis out of there in 10 were it not for the cut.

I can make stuff up also (quiet Oxy and windy).

Have heard far more people suggesting Lewis eventually stops Vitali than the other way round?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:Most people think Lewis would have stopped vitali if the fight went on tbh I agree my prediction would be that Lewis would win in the 8th or 9th round he was coming on strong and Vitali was weakening the rest of the fight would have been one sided.

Who are these people. Most people thought Vit would have got Lewis out of there in 10 were it not for the cut.

I can make stuff up also (quiet Oxy and windy).

Have heard far more people suggesting Lewis eventually stops Vitali than the other way round?

Most I have heard is that it could have gone either way. Its a flat out lie to claim that most thought Lewis would have knocked Vit out had it continued.

Just seen the cut round again. Lucky punch. Was not a full blodded punch but a grazing punch. Lewis got a get out of jail card with that lucky punch (lucky in the way it landed).

A boxer is always lucky landing a punch he intended to land.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:A boxer is always lucky landing a punch he intended to land.

He didn't intend to graze him. That's the luck. He wanted a full blodded punch but wasn't good enough to land one. Instead he got the luck on his side in the way the punch landed.

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:Most people think Lewis would have stopped vitali if the fight went on tbh I agree my prediction would be that Lewis would win in the 8th or 9th round he was coming on strong and Vitali was weakening the rest of the fight would have been one sided.

Who are these people. Most people thought Vit would have got Lewis out of there in 10 were it not for the cut.

I can make stuff up also (quiet Oxy and windy).

Look at the poll mate most people agree Lewis would have knocked him out

What polls? This one here? Hardly scientific is it. Do one in germany or Ukraine. This one is a home town decision. Vit is getting robbed.

Lennox Lewis the pride of britain, he got less plaudits in this country than he did in america.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Lennox Lewis the pride of britain, he got less plaudits in this country than he did in america.

The british press and public (majority) always rate him as the number 1 british fighter ever so he has support.

I think many people on here do not like Lewis or else they dont realise how good he was. It is the same with alot of our fighters sadly people want to criticise them everyone seems to back against them.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Lennox Lewis the pride of britain, he got less plaudits in this country than he did in america.

He got little plaudits in America. Remember they picked Grant to beat him. Regardless I believe waingro is referring to his poll which is hardly scientific.

Waingro wrote:I think many people on here do not like Lewis or else they dont realise how good he was. It is the same with alot of our fighters sadly people want to criticise them everyone seems to back against them.

I liked Lennox. I just dont think he was as good as many here make him out to be.

It is a poll it is not meant to be scientific it is just about opinions

Waingro wrote:It is a poll it is not meant to be scientific it is just about opinions

Of course. But you mentioned it as some form of evidence of what most people thought.

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:It is a poll it is not meant to be scientific it is just about opinions

Of course. But you mentioned it as some form of evidence of what most people thought.

Most people think Lewis would have stopped Vitali

lovely_london wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Lennox Lewis the pride of britain, he got less plaudits in this country than he did in america.

The british press and public (majority) always rate him as the number 1 british fighter ever so he has support.

No they don't, he's usually around the 5/6/7 mark.

You may have him mistaken for Ted Lewis who does have a fair bit of support as being britains finest but the accolade is more commonly associated with Jimmy Wilde.

Waingro wrote:

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:It is a poll it is not meant to be scientific it is just about opinions

Of course. But you mentioned it as some form of evidence of what most people thought.

Most people think Lewis would have stopped Vitali

Most people think Vitali would have stopped lewis.

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:It is a poll it is not meant to be scientific it is just about opinions

Of course. But you mentioned it as some form of evidence of what most people thought.

Most people think Lewis would have stopped Vitali

Most people think Vitali would have stopped lewis.

They dont mate look at the poll. That is why I did the poll. To show what people think. Most people think Lewis would have stopped Vitali.

Waingro wrote:

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:It is a poll it is not meant to be scientific it is just about opinions

Of course. But you mentioned it as some form of evidence of what most people thought.

Most people think Lewis would have stopped Vitali

Most people think Vitali would have stopped lewis.

They dont mate look at the poll. That is why I did the poll. To show what people think. Most people think Lewis would have stopped Vitali.

You just agreed that the poll isn't scientific so its hardly accurate.

Do a poll on a german site and see what result you get.

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:

azania wrote:

Waingro wrote:It is a poll it is not meant to be scientific it is just about opinions

Of course. But you mentioned it as some form of evidence of what most people thought.

Most people think Lewis would have stopped Vitali

Most people think Vitali would have stopped lewis.

They dont mate look at the poll. That is why I did the poll. To show what people think. Most people think Lewis would have stopped Vitali.

You just agreed that the poll isn't scientific so its hardly accurate.

Do a poll on a german site and see what result you get.

The poll is about opinions mate not scientific. Most opinions think Lewis would have stopped Vitali.

Az's point is that you're using such a small demographic it's accuracy is confined to this site and this site only.

Reading this thread is entertaining fair do

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Az's point is that you're using such a small demographic it's accuracy is confined to this site and this site only.

Cheers but I think your efforts are wasted.

Lewis started slowly in the fight but had gained momentum in the 5th and 6th. His fists did the damage and the fight was fairly stopped. I believe Lewis had figured out Vitalis style and would have got the stoppage. Lewis is the best Uk fighter of all time and was rated No.1 bv KO magazine.

Have to go with Lewis by TKO/KO, he looked to almost have Vitali out of there not long before the fight was stopped. I know Vitali's looked undroppable since but he hasn't fought anyone near Lewis' calibre since!

azania wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

azania wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:Why do people seem to think Kirk Johnson was some kind of Hobbit? He was a genuine HW and, despite not being one of the greatest fighters ever to lace 'em up, he wasn't some pub brawler that they'd enticed into the ring with offers of a lifetime supply of pork scratchings. Yes, he has a different style to Vitali but as far as I'm aware, his gameplan would have worked along similar lines to Vitali (namely, using his fists to throw punches to head and body with a view to either outscoring Lewis or rendering him unable to continue). Not really THAT difficult for fighters to adapt is it?

Az says "on that night, Vit was the better boxer" Really? If he was the better boxer, he'd have been able to take full advantage of an overweight, lacksadaisical Lewis. As it was, he failed to dispatch his man unlike Rahman did in their first fight (and it's arguable that Lewis was just as unmotivated for that one). Also, if Vitali was the better boxer, why was he unable to get his head out of the way of Lewis's gloves or was his plan to allow Lewis to cut him so badly the fight would be stopped thus making Vitali the moral (but not the ACTUAL) winner?

So when a boxer gets cut its because the other guy is better than his is it? I remember Hatton being cut many times but the cuts weren't so bad to stop the fight. Getting cut is unfortunate. Un/lucky also. But making that cut worse takes skill. Lewis displayed enough skill to open up the cut further. Credit to him. But to say he was the better boxer because Vit was cut is far from the truth.

More excuses of lewis being lacksadaisical. What other adjective will be used? Lewis was up for the fight, getting outboxer and out punched until he got lucky.

What other one is there? Lazy seems just as suitable. Lewis was "up" for the fight? Was he really? Let's consider how he fought against the likes of Ruddock, Golota, Grant, Tua, Holyfield first time round, the Rahman rematch and even Tyson, those to me were fights where Lewis was "up for it" and then look at the performance he put in against Vitali. Lewis fights Vitali in the same way he fought Golota and you'd see a demolition of such magnitude, people would still hold the loss over Vitali to this day....oh wait, they still hold that loss against him. Crikey, imagine what it would be like if he'd be annihilated

However, I do think you're getting confused though Az, Chris Byrd was getting outboxed and outpunched until he got lucky.

Any way you look at it, Vitali Klitschko lost to Lennox lewis. Vitali was the younger, bigger fighter and STILL got beaten.

Under-prepared, un-motivated, lazy, unlucky, there's so much more. What about Holy 2nd time round? Was he lacksadaisical then too also when he squeezked a very narrow decision? Rahman rematch saw Rahman over-confident (I can pluck up excuses also) hence he lost.

Byrd didn't get lucky. Vit quit.Poor show from Vit. No excuses. Be objective for a change. Its cathartic.

Lewis 3 years previously would have beaten any version of Vit (if he was motivated that is).

As excuses for quitting go, dislocating your shoulder seems to be one of the more legitimate ones. Samuel Peter also quit on his stool against Vitali. Does that make Vitali "lucky" or was it a poor show from Samuel?
Suggesting Byrd wan't lucky in his fight with Vitali does tend to make you look a bit of clown, Az. The guy was one his way to pitching a virtual shutout when his shoulder went. If Wlad's shoulder had gone in the tenth when he fought Haye, we'd be called Haye the luckiest S.O.B. walking the planet. We wouldn't be suggesting Wlad was a quitter. He may be many things but that isn't one of them.

Also a bit rich you asking people to be objective about Lewis when you suggest that his win was nothing more than a fluke

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Az's point is that you're using such a small demographic it's accuracy is confined to this site and this site only.

To be fair, Ghosty, Waingro's poll is more scientific than Az just blindly stating that most people think Vitali would have knocked out Lewis.

superflyweight wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Az's point is that you're using such a small demographic it's accuracy is confined to this site and this site only.

To be fair, Ghosty, Waingro's poll is more scientific than Az just blindly stating that most people think Vitali would have knocked out Lewis.

I haven't done a poll. My point here is that should you hold a similar poll in germany you would get an opposite outcome. Most people here would think Lewis would have won. Most in Germany would have thought the opposite.

As excuses for quitting go, dislocating your shoulder seems to be one of the more legitimate ones. Samuel Peter also quit on his stool against Vitali. Does that make Vitali "lucky" or was it a poor show from Samuel?
Suggesting Byrd wan't lucky in his fight with Vitali does tend to make you look a bit of clown, Az. The guy was one his way to pitching a virtual shutout when his shoulder went. If Wlad's shoulder had gone in the tenth when he fought Haye, we'd be called Haye the luckiest S.O.B. walking the planet. We wouldn't be suggesting Wlad was a quitter. He may be many things but that isn't one of them.

Also a bit rich you asking people to be objective about Lewis when you suggest that his win was nothing more than a fluke

Do you have to make things up to suit your argument?

Many boxers have continued fighting after serious shoulder injuries. Audley did. Colin McMillan did and so did Danny Williams. Tyson continued with a badly damaged knee against Williams. Vit quit.

azania wrote:

As excuses for quitting go, dislocating your shoulder seems to be one of the more legitimate ones. Samuel Peter also quit on his stool against Vitali. Does that make Vitali "lucky" or was it a poor show from Samuel?
Suggesting Byrd wan't lucky in his fight with Vitali does tend to make you look a bit of clown, Az. The guy was one his way to pitching a virtual shutout when his shoulder went. If Wlad's shoulder had gone in the tenth when he fought Haye, we'd be called Haye the luckiest S.O.B. walking the planet. We wouldn't be suggesting Wlad was a quitter. He may be many things but that isn't one of them.

Also a bit rich you asking people to be objective about Lewis when you suggest that his win was nothing more than a fluke

Do you have to make things up to suit your argument?

Many boxers have continued fighting after serious shoulder injuries. Audley did. Colin McMillan did and so did Danny Williams. Tyson continued with a badly damaged knee against Williams. Vit quit.

It's easy to state these things from the comfort of a desk and most likely never suffered his injury.

I believe Vitali severely tore his rotator cuff, I have only mildly tore it and it was agony and I couldn't raise my arm above my shoulder without severe pain for nearly 2 weeks and couldn't train for 5/6 weeks!

azania wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Az's point is that you're using such a small demographic it's accuracy is confined to this site and this site only.

To be fair, Ghosty, Waingro's poll is more scientific than Az just blindly stating that most people think Vitali would have knocked out Lewis.

I haven't done a poll. My point here is that should you hold a similar poll in germany you would get an opposite outcome. Most people here would think Lewis would have won. Most in Germany would have thought the opposite.

That's not what you said though, Az. You said

Most people thought Vit would have got Lewis out of there in 10 were it not for the cut.

and

Most people think Vitali would have stopped lewis..

and

most opinions think that Vitali would have knocked out Lewis.

There's no way you can possibly back up these claims so it's pure conjecture and even less scientific of Waingro's poll that has garnered about 30 responses so far. Neither method is scientific and both are meaningless in terms of establishing general opinion. There's no point in you claiming that Waingro's poll is not scientific when you are relying on baseless claims to make your argument.

superfly

My comments were in direct response to waingro's comments. If you see all I did was swap Vit's name not Lewis to show that anyone can claim anything without backing it up. You cant use the poll on here as anything scientific or legitimate either. My comments were deliberately baseless to counter an equally baseless comment from waingro.

Hope that clears it up.

Valero

I've seen guys on a rugny pitch dislocate their shoulder yet continue. Sure it hurts, but Vit had a few minutes to go. It wasn't a severe tear also. I reckon he could have continued and he didn't look in any particular discomfort.

If Audley could continue, why couldn't he?

azania wrote:

As excuses for quitting go, dislocating your shoulder seems to be one of the more legitimate ones. Samuel Peter also quit on his stool against Vitali. Does that make Vitali "lucky" or was it a poor show from Samuel?
Suggesting Byrd wan't lucky in his fight with Vitali does tend to make you look a bit of clown, Az. The guy was one his way to pitching a virtual shutout when his shoulder went. If Wlad's shoulder had gone in the tenth when he fought Haye, we'd be called Haye the luckiest S.O.B. walking the planet. We wouldn't be suggesting Wlad was a quitter. He may be many things but that isn't one of them.

Also a bit rich you asking people to be objective about Lewis when you suggest that his win was nothing more than a fluke

Do you have to make things up to suit your argument?

Many boxers have continued fighting after serious shoulder injuries. Audley did. Colin McMillan did and so did Danny Williams. Tyson continued with a badly damaged knee against Williams. Vit quit.

No, I rely on facts as opposed to wild suppositions like yourself. The facts are that Vitali suffered a serious shoulder injury and retired injured. Your supposition is that Vitali would have beaten Lewis based on what exactly?

McMillan was actually pulled out by his corner dear fellow...he failed to continue. You seem to think Vitali quit in the same way Liston quit against Ali, Duran quit against Leonard, Peter quit against Vitali, Benn quit against Collins or McCullough quit in his last fight when ahead on the cards.

You name three fighters who've carried on with injuries yet fail to mention the hundreds more who've quit with similar injuries.

Azania,, by the letter of the law, or at least the English language, you are technically correct that Vitali "quit".

However it implies "quiting" without reasonable justification, when I think most would accept it was a very serious injury with long term consequences if aggravated further. Pointing to examples where fighters have continued is intended to show exactly what? That Vitali could have continued? Yes he probably could have hung around one armed and crippled and yes, might have even hung on to win the fight (he tried for at least one round). Just ike Solis might have hobbled around the ring on one leg - for all the good it would have done. Is it adviseable? No it isnt really, not in a sport like boxing. Who knows what further damage would have been caused or what kind of punishment Byrd could have inflicted if it went on. I dont think fighting the guts of half a fight with one arm, in crippling pain and near defenceless is to be recommended. When you brand him a quitter, you throw him in with the quitters who have given up or thrown in the towel for no good reason and I dont think this is the case in this particular event.

DAVE667 wrote:

azania wrote:

As excuses for quitting go, dislocating your shoulder seems to be one of the more legitimate ones. Samuel Peter also quit on his stool against Vitali. Does that make Vitali "lucky" or was it a poor show from Samuel?
Suggesting Byrd wan't lucky in his fight with Vitali does tend to make you look a bit of clown, Az. The guy was one his way to pitching a virtual shutout when his shoulder went. If Wlad's shoulder had gone in the tenth when he fought Haye, we'd be called Haye the luckiest S.O.B. walking the planet. We wouldn't be suggesting Wlad was a quitter. He may be many things but that isn't one of them.

Also a bit rich you asking people to be objective about Lewis when you suggest that his win was nothing more than a fluke

Do you have to make things up to suit your argument?

Many boxers have continued fighting after serious shoulder injuries. Audley did. Colin McMillan did and so did Danny Williams. Tyson continued with a badly damaged knee against Williams. Vit quit.

No, I rely on facts as opposed to wild suppositions like yourself. The facts are that Vitali suffered a serious shoulder injury and retired injured. Your supposition is that Vitali would have beaten Lewis based on what exactly?

McMillan was actually pulled out by his corner dear fellow...he failed to continue. You seem to think Vitali quit in the same way Liston quit against Ali, Duran quit against Leonard, Peter quit against Vitali, Benn quit against Collins or McCullough quit in his last fight when ahead on the cards.

You name three fighters who've carried on with injuries yet fail to mention the hundreds more who've quit with similar injuries.

Haven't said Lewis's win was a fluke. You made that up.

McCillan was pulled out of his corner. Vit instructed his corner to pull him out. Big difference. Not questioning his bravery whatsoever. It was a serious injury and as a proud man it must have been tough to pull out. But with only 2 rounds to go, he could have continued. If Audley can do it, so should Vit.

manos de piedra wrote:Azania,, by the letter of the law, or at least the English language, you are technically correct that Vitali "quit".

However it implies "quiting" without reasonable justification, when I think most would accept it was a very serious injury with long term consequences if aggravated further. Pointing to examples where fighters have continued is intended to show exactly what? That Vitali could have continued? Yes he probably could have hung around one armed and crippled and yes, might have even hung on to win the fight (he tried for at least one round). Just ike Solis might have hobbled around the ring on one leg - for all the good it would have done. Is it adviseable? No it isnt really, not in a sport like boxing. Who knows what further damage would have been caused or what kind of punishment Byrd could have inflicted if it went on. I dont think fighting the guts of half a fight with one arm, in crippling pain and near defenceless is to be recommended. When you brand him a quitter, you throw him in with the quitters who have given up or thrown in the towel for no good reason and I dont think this is the case in this particular event.

I'm not questioning his bravery one bit. He could have continued I believe. For me that strikes as a confidence fighter. One who is liable to tank should the going get tougher than predicted.

Byrd wasn't doing much and I believe Vit was carrying the injury for 2 rounds. All he had to do was stay upright to win.