Foden - Outside Centre

With Manu Tuilagi definitely out of the first international against Scotland, and potentially out for a further couple of games. England have the option of either playing the uncapped Gloucester centre Henry Trinder at 13, who has a lot of potential - but probably isn't ready for the step up just yet, or England could go with Turner-Hall and Barritt in the centres, however this would be a very one dimensional centre pairing, mainly focused on defence. However England will most likely go with Farrell and Barritt in the centres with Hodgson at 10, an all Saracens combination. Whilst this works at club level, at international level I have doubts over Farrells all-round game, his goal kicking is exceptional and he is a good ball playing centre, however defensively I've seen him slip off too many tackles, whilst his decision making in defence is questionable.

One player I feel could make a smooth transition to outside centre would be Ben Foden. England have a certain luxury at full back at the moment. Perhaps in this pecking order England have Ben Foden, Mike Brown, Alex Goode, Delon Armitage, Nick Abendanon, Rob Miller, Chris Pennell, and not forgetting Olly Morgan and Matthew Tait when they come back from injury all capable of putting in a decent shift at full back for England.

Mike Brown is in particularly good form at the moment, and there isn't an area of his game that is suffering. He seems to be rock solidly defensively and thrilling in attack, dominant under the high ball and he has a huge boot on him. He is the form full back in the northern hemisphere. His main problem at the moment is that probably the second best full back in the northern hemisphere on form is Ben Foden, who is arguably one of England's best players, with an untarnished reputation on and off the pitch.

However I feel England should accommodate both of these players who are in such wonderful form. I'd play Brown at full back and move Foden to outside centre. At outside centre, Foden wouldn't struggle defensively as he is a top class tackler and his acceleration and power would help him with front up tackling and cover tackles. In attack he would arguably be more dangerous, able to hit lines at pace, use his outside break and draw in defenders to release the back three. Also if you partnered Barritt and Foden together, you would get a good balance in the centres. Whilst I'd be willing to play Farrell at 10, simply because he is the future and has been goal kicking week in, week out for Saracens ahead of his rival for the England 10 shirt Hodgson, and
with Barritt and Foden outside him, he would have two players who are very strong defensively and offer lots of options in attack. Whilst with Hodgson on the bench, England have his experience to rely on if things don't work out for Farrell.

I don't think Lancaster should worry about dropping players into the deep end at this moment in time, therefore this would be my team against Scotland in the six nations...

1. J.Marler
2. D.Hartley
3. D.Cole
4. M.Botha
5. T.Palmer
6. T.Croft
7. C.Robshaw (c)
8. B.Morgan
9. B.Youngs
10. O.Farrell
11. D.Strettle
12. B.Barritt
13. B.Foden
14. C.Ashton
15. M.Brown

16. M.Stevens
17. R.Webber
18. D.Attwood
19. P.Dowson
20. L.Dickson
21. C.Hodgson
22. C.Sharples

Well I would take Croft out at 6 for starters.. when you get dumped into touch by the smallest man on the pitch I think it is time to bulk up and learn how to actually play like a flanker. Never really got the whole Croft craze. Stick Wood in there, and when Haskell returns I think he should play at 6 so you have some real grunt there for a change.

First, I would say that Foden is in better form than Brown - just.

Second absolutely NO, I am sick of players being selected and shoe-horned into positions they are not familiar with. It is foden or Brown for me - there is no room for both.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well I would take Croft out at 6 for starters.. when you get dumped into touch by the smallest man on the pitch I think it is time to bulk up and learn how to actually play like a flanker.

That was embarrassing for us Tigers fans. It was Paddy Wallace right? Croft was completely overshadowed by Ferris that game, who was playing like a man possessed. I agree with your points about Haskell too. No matter what people say about him or how many dislike him, he's really improved his game since being in France and should hopefully retain or build-on that with his Super 15 experience.

I second that....and would also take Botha out and put either Attwood or Garvey in there....we need to beef up the pack.

Also Marler is one big ol unit...and when his scurmmaging (its improving already and will more so with Rowntree at him) is up there he will be frightening, but i wouldnt start him...certainly give him some game time in the second half...

1 Corbs
2 Hartley (C- Temporarily)
3 Cole
4 Garvey / Attwood
5 Palmer
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Youngs
10 Hodgson
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Trinder
14 Ashton
15 Foden (Bring Brown on in the second half...see how he goes)

seeing as Fodens one of the consistently bright lights for England, I wouldn't dream of moving him from FB. He's excellant there, and theres more than enough very good (if inexperienced) centres in England.

No better time to start blooding the promising youngsters than this year, Trinder has looked good and I would say is worth a shot.

I'd probably go

9. Youngs
10. Hodgson
11. Sharples
12. Barritt
13. Trinder
14. Ashton
15. Foden

Geordie, great minds......

tom watson sigh.

Why would you move one of England's most in form and secure players out of position? Just when it looks like the full back position has been nailed down by one player....

We have to have faith in the youngsters stepping up. Consequently I believe Barritt should be partnered with Trinder against Scotland.

Mike Brown is not good enough to oust Foden. Also he is unproven at international level.

Croft is athletic but in my opinion lacks the power needed to be a blindside flanker. Would be a good impact sub.

My team would be:

1.Corbisiero
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha (would prefer Garvey but not picked_
5.Palmer
6.Robshaw
7.Wood (c)
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Hodgson
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Trinder
14.Ashton
15.Foden

I have to agree that you don't mess with specialist positions, particularly if a player is not getting any rugby in the proposed new position. Christian Cullen sounded like a good idea at outside centre but it turned out to be as big a mistake as wearing a homespun jersey in public.

I also agree with the backrow. Last year with Moody and Croft out, England looked their best in the backrow. Morgan, Robshaw and Wood have a rookie feel about them but to me they provide the best balance. Croft can come off the bench and provide an impact role after the bench but I'd like to see that backrow start the game.

i think we only have to speak to some New Zealanders to get some stronger opinions on playing fullbacks at centre

bluestonevedder wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Well I would take Croft out at 6 for starters.. when you get dumped into touch by the smallest man on the pitch I think it is time to bulk up and learn how to actually play like a flanker.

That was embarrassing for us Tigers fans. It was Paddy Wallace right? Croft was completely overshadowed by Ferris that game, who was playing like a man possessed. I agree with your points about Haskell too. No matter what people say about him or how many dislike him, he's really improved his game since being in France and should hopefully retain or build-on that with his Super 15 experience.

Yeah it was Paddy Wallace. I have never really thought Croft that good a player. Yes he is dangerous in open play, but he is a 6, what use is that really? He should be putting his head down and making the hard yards, and knocking players off the ball at the breakdown. Haskell I think is actually very good, and he is also best at 6. He has that grunt you need at 6, and he adds a lot to the team. He, Robshaw and Morgan/Crane I think would have fantastic balance as a backrow. Would love to see that happen at some point.

When I say I would love to see that as a combination, as the opposition I wouldn't love to see it

Yes, whilst I agree Foden has all the attributes to be a great outside centre, he is already a world class fullback. He's settled there, adds a lot to the team and he should not be moved.

Why would you not put Armitage who has already played 13 before there over Foden who hasn't?

Also is Charlie Hodgeson really favourite for flyhalf? Why not Farrell?

That's actually a really nice backrow you mentioned Rory, and I hadn't ever thought of it.

6. Haskell 7. Roshaw 8. Morgan/Crane

Cracking balance and power, especially if Robsaw continues to hone his ball fetching skills as he has done.

I would also have Wood over Croft, but playing at openside with Robshaw at blindside. Wood is injured and meant to be unavailable for the Scotland match though.

With Wood out I'd select Dowson over Morgan as well, the breakdown is going to be a decisive aspect of the Scotland game. Morgan on the bench, coming on in the second half. A starting debut away at Murrayfield for a young player in a vital position in a new inexperienced side is a massive ask and I think the wrong way to succesfully manage the beginning of his international career.

Foden at OC wouldn't be one of the worst out of position selections, but I agree with most of the others here, select and develop a proper centre.

Well I would take Croft out at 6 for starters.. when you get dumped into touch by the smallest man on the pitch I think it is time to bulk up and learn how to actually play like a flanker

I think Croft was just trying to hold Wallace there for an inside ball for Tuilagi on the switch. Hence we he keeps both hands on the ball and just steps in with little momentum. His main problem there was expecting Alesana to bother making a run, he hadn't bothered to in the 60 minutes previous to that so left Croft to get dumped by Wallace who couldn't believe his luck.

Also is Charlie Hodgeson really favourite for flyhalf? Why not Farrell?

Because Farrell has no where near the same attacking instincts and passing skills as Hodgson. Hodgson was taken the Sarries attack from being mainly a kick chase or kick return unit to a real flat platform ustilising the pacey outside backs to pretty decent effect. Of the young 10s (Clegg, Farrell, Burns, Ford) I think that Bruns is the closest to being ready to start at 10 (currently Flood and Hodgson are the logical choices for 10). Farrell would do a job at 12 but the problem he has is that Barritt will do a better one and that at international level Farrell is a bit slow for a 13.

Beschocked's backline looks like what I expect the England management to select with probably Sharples on the bench. I quite like that backline and when Manu returns it will be really quite menacing.

maestegmafia wrote:Also is Charlie Hodgeson really favourite for flyhalf? Why not Farrell?

Sarries look a lot better with Hodgson at 10 than when Farrell plays there. While it is important to get young players in the team, it is also important that they deserve the shirt.

goal kicking would be a concern however.

If Foden's the best full back, he should play full back. If he's not then he shouldn't be in the team.

maestegmafia wrote:Also is Charlie Hodgeson really favourite for flyhalf? Why not Farrell?

Farrell just isn't as good as Hodgson. Saracens have failed to win two league games this season, both had Farrell in the 10 shirt.

Personally I don't ever see him developing beyond third choice FH at best for England. Flood, Burns & Clegg are better than him at present and Ford had the better performances when they both played in the role for the U20s last season.

Niwatts where is Ford? Oh wait he's currently plying his trade for a championship side whereas Farrell is in the senior England squad.

Farrell outplayed Flood in the AP final (Tiger's first choice FH). I don't think he's too worried about an 18 year old who currently isn't AP standard. If he is why is he not picked....

Ford is falling left behind by his peers. In the U20s 6 nations he'll likely be partnered with Ben Spencer (19 year old) who in just a few months has a lot more top rugby experience. 18 games to 11 I believe including very important crunch games.

Clegg? Are you serious? I don't think I have ever seen him ever have a good game. Always seems highly erratic with the boot. Mentally fragile.

Burns and Farrell drew in their last encounter. Honours are even as far as I am concerned.

Another here who agrees with beshocked's back selection of

9 - Youngs
10 - Hodgson
11 - Strettle
12 - Barritt
13 - Trindler
14 - Ashton
15 - Foden

My reserve backs would be

20 - Dickson (covers 9)
21 - Farrell (10, 12, 13)
22 - Sharples (11, 14, 15)

Just because Farrell is the better kicker than Hodgson doesn't mean we have to try and force him into the starting line up. Hodgson can kick to a decent enough level and is infinity better with ball in hand. I'm not 100% sure but I think he is the premierships leading points scorer.

Concerned with Youngs form over the last 2 games. Hopefully meeting up with the new EPS with give him a welcome distraction and return to form, as will pairing up with Flood once fit again.

Foden is world class, probably the best 15 in the NH at the moment. Can't see why anyone would want to move him into an unfamiliar position. The only reason Brown should be selected is that he forces Foden out of the first 15 due to form and ability and I can't see that happening anyway, think Foden will be the incumbent full back for a few years to come. Wouldn't have Brown on the bench either as he only covers one position (where as Sharples covers the back 3).

I think if LAncaster was that despertae to play Brown then Fodens more likely to be found outside the job center than at 13.

However you coudl colour me amazed if he doesnt start 15 , and if there isnt something resemeblg a center playing at center. Lancaster seems to be revelling in the idea of having a bunch of clueless kids with no leadership getting slaughtered and running rounmd liek headless chickens. Apparently this is building for the future not short term results ( or possibly a no lose situation for him ) . Which is why he stuck by Lee Mears I guess.

Thank you B91212. I absolutely agree with your reserves. Good cover.

Also agree with the rest of your comments.

I only say Strettle because he's in better form than Sharples currently. It's a straight shoot out between the two and wouldn't mind either lining up vs Scotland.

trinder did not start in the hc at the weekend. surely thats a sign there are doubts somewhere. i know he is only a young lad but he may not be ready for 6 nations yet

from an irish perspective i would be more scared of a midfield of barrit and foden then two big bashers. brown seems in great form and will go well at full back. foden has pace a great step and can fix a defender in a tight space. could well do a job at 13

the quins 13 looked half decent. foppish chap with long blonde hair, much like 50% of all english rugby players

What I can't understand is why everyone is so confident Brown will have a stormer if he gets the nod in the 6 nations?

Brown came off worse against his two main England rivals, Goode and Foden yet is the next big thing. Why?

beshocked wrote:I only say Strettle because he's in better form than Sharples currently. It's a straight shoot out between the two and wouldn't mind either lining up vs Scotland.

To be honest Strettle has won me over in the last 2 months or so. Watched him earlier in the year (can't remember who is was against, could have been Saints but not sure) and he looked weak defensively to the point where he was dropped to the bench for the next match. I know Saracens rotate their players but I do think this was an actual drop but over the festive period he looked very sharp in both attack and defense. Just hope for good weather as no team would want to kick too often to that back 3 if the ground is firm underfoot.

Foden is Englands best 15...and is one of Englands only players geuninely boardering on World Class...something i dont throw round willy nilly...

Brown is playing exceptionally well...but he shouldnt be in over Foden.

Farrell outplayed Flood in the AP final (Tiger's first choice FH). I don't think he's too worried about an 18 year old who currently isn't AP standard. If he is why is he not picked....

Ford is falling left behind by his peers. In the U20s 6 nations he'll likely be partnered with Ben Spencer (19 year old) who in just a few months has a lot more top rugby experience. 18 games to 11 I believe including very important crunch games.

Farrell barely played. He kicked and let the best defence in the league win the game. He is an excellent kicker and good in defence but in every other area he is no where near the same quality as Flood. It's the same with Hodgson, Farrell is a better points kicker and as good at the tactical kicking better in defence than Charlie but ball in hand Farrell loses.

Not sure Ford is really losing ground. At the same age wasn't Farrell on loan at Bedford getting first team experience? Ford is a year or two younger than the others mentioned so a couple of games in the Championship will be good for him (a season there was revolutionary in the development of Dan Cole). Ford was the youngest player in the JWC squad and I think he still holds the record for youngest player to play in a top flight professional game. He dumped the two more expereinced players in the JWC into the 12 spot and they scrapped over that whilst he won Junior World Player of the Year. He's in the Tigers A team to play against Leeds tonight at WR.

Ben Spencer is coming along very well since his move to Sarries. He certainly performed well against Biaritz and I think it was an error by the Sarries management to take him off.

LondonTiger wrote:First, I would say that Foden is in better form than Brown - just.

Second absolutely NO, I am sick of players being selected and shoe-horned into positions they are not familiar with. It is foden or Brown for me - there is no room for both.

Tiger,

Welcome to our world ( or until recently of late) Gatland tried every concievable way to get Hook onto the pitch and it rarely worked latterly.

Is Ford not physically to small at the moment...a bit like our young lad Hodgson...who i think will go to SH because of his size...

Agree B191212. Strettle was absolutely woeful against Saints. Was essentially guilty for two of your tries. He has sharpened up since then though. Particularly good 1st half vs Quins. MOM vs Bath.


Sam Just kicked 6 out of 6 in an AP final. Anyone could do it. I even think you and I could it Sam. It's that easy! Farrell just stood on the sidelines till his team won him the penalties. He didn't put any tackles in or kick anything to touch.

Wait a minute didn't Flood miss 2 kicks? Flood lost the ball in hand battle - 1 try to 0. Even after over 30 phases Flood could not get his side over the Saracens line.

A lot of people think Wilkinson just had a good boot and good defence. Still won England a world cup with his drop goal. You underestimate the importance of a place kicker. Especially in a game of fine margins.


Ford needed the game time at Junior U20s because he simply isn't good enough at AP level. Farrell had already won a bigger prize than the JWC.

Farrell >Ford. Farrell tore Ford and his side to shreds in their last encounter in an AP game. Farrell even strolled through the defence to score a try. Man vs Boy.

Ford is younger so has time on his side. Time's ticking though.


I agree Spencer should have not been brought off.

Foden-Outside Centre. NO, NO, NO, certainly not rememeber what happend when Matin Johnson tried to play Ugo Monyae at full back? yes it was a disaster.

Lancaster should start as he meens to go on, pick the best players in their positions and stick to it.

Charlie Hodson 10, Brad Barrit 12 Owen Farrel,13 it makes sence to play these 3 together they play together for Sarries so they know each others game,

Ben Foden Full Back (starting) Mike Brown on the bench.

He's improving Geordie it's just unfortunate that Tigers are chasing the AP at the minute and so aren't taking too many chances. The raft of injured centres hasn't helped either. He got a tase during the RWC and did well enough but his time at Leeds was meant to further his education. In his second game he earnt rave reviews. Looks like he'll be busy with the England under 20s during the 6N otherwise he'd have played then.

Foden is not a centre. He could certainly cover centre mid-game, IMO, if injuries forced that, but especially in the more structured beginning of a game when everyone is fresh the defensive positioning of the centres is key and you need match experience to do that. Foden is a fanastic defender - at full back. That will not necessarily transfer to 13, despite his tackling and speed. We also have several players who would make better international 13s in my opinion, though only Trinder and Farrell (as bench cover) are in the EPS for the 6 nations until Tuilagi gets back (and he has that position nailed atm)

Brown IS playing really well, beshocked, he has been strong even against Goode when Quins lost to Saracens, and he was owned by Foden in a one-on-one against Saints, but he was not embarrassed. I would not advocate starting him except against Italy to blood him, but he is on better form than Goode and if Foden gets tragically injured it will be good to have him available.

Clegg is not a horrible player, he has been good with ball in hand, but his decision making and kicking fall short. I wish we could get him on the pitch with Evans to be honest. Maybe play Evans at FB (where he has All Black Caps) for a couple of games if Brown is unavailable due to England duties and let Clegg play 10 whilst Evans kicks and can take over if Clegg falters? But then that feels like wasting Evans.

Great play by Sarries this weekend by the way. It's also a shame that Saints didn't have Foden against Scarlets in the first leg- the difference he seems to have made was huge and I can't help but feel that a closer to full strength Saints side would be through to the QFs of the heinken Cup

majesticimperialman wrote:Foden-Outside Centre. NO, NO, NO, certainly not rememeber what happend when Matin Johnson tried to play Ugo Monyae at full back? yes it was a disaster.

Lancaster should start as he meens to go on, pick the best players in their positions and stick to it.

Charlie Hodson 10, Brad Barrit 12 Owen Farrel,13 it makes sence to play these 3 together they play together for Sarries so they know each others game,

Ben Foden Full Back (starting) Mike Brown on the bench.

Majestic,

That combo seems sensible from what I watch of the Aviva, do like Brown as well mind but hasn't Hodgson had his go at 10. He's never really set world alight in and England shirt and whilst Farrell maybe young the unexpected of him playing there might just fool teams.

Chequered Jersey Mike Brown has indeed been in good form. Deservedly picked as the 2ND best FB behind Foden in the EPS. Simply not good enough form to force Foden to outside centre though

I am not saying Clegg is a horrible player. It's just whenever I have personally watched him he has been poor. E.g. against Exeter with the boot, against Saracens in two games - one last season and that game at Wembley... Just turned on the TV recently against Saints on ESPN and he misses a straightforward kick.

I heard he got rave reviews vs Munster but I didnt see that game.

Thank you. Well done to Quins for moving a step closer to HC quarter qualification. Always want the English teams to do.

Saints have only themselves to blame. Could have been 5/5 but the fine margins mean only an Amlin spot is up for grabs.

beshocked wrote:tom watson sigh.

Why would you move one of England's most in form and secure players out of position? Just when it looks like the full back position has been nailed down by one player....

We have to have faith in the youngsters stepping up. Consequently I believe Barritt should be partnered with Trinder against Scotland.

Mike Brown is not good enough to oust Foden. Also he is unproven at international level.

Croft is athletic but in my opinion lacks the power needed to be a blindside flanker. Would be a good impact sub.

My team would be:

1.Corbisiero
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Botha (would prefer Garvey but not picked_
5.Palmer
6.Robshaw
7.Wood (c)
8.Morgan

9.Youngs
10.Hodgson
11.Strettle
12.Barritt
13.Trinder
14.Ashton
15.Foden

Beshocked I totally agree with your team selection here, it has a nice balance about it particularly if one includes the ever-promising Garvey! He looked very good against the Blues and appeared all over the park.

You and I will never agree however on the question of young George Ford. As FKSam pointed out, he pushed Farrel to 12 at JWC who had a mare of a game when he played 10 there. Don't get me wrong Farrell has the nerve and ability of someone far beyond his years, and looked ultra composed when kicking vs Biaritz on the w/end. No one could dispute his attitude and place kicking abilities. He is not however, in my humble opinion a particularly good 10 and 12 is his best position I feel. If he was the deity you are making him out to be wouldn't he be starting at 10 for Sarries this season? Especially given he had most of last season to make the shirt his own? At present he's playing out of position at 13, because Sarries want him in the team for place kicking, but not for what he offers at 10 or even at 12 at the moment. You just cannot get away with comparing George Ford with Farrell on what Farrell has 'achieved' so far, it's a totally false assessment of the two players.

beshocked wrote: Saints have only themselves to blame. Could have been 5/5 but the fine margins mean only an Amlin spot is up for grabs.

Sorry, but thats a ridiculous comment, the Scarlets tore them apart at Franklin Gardens. Absolutely tore them apart. WBP away and no LBP for Saints. Fine margins indeed

Chjw131 glad we agree on something

Don't forget that the current 10 and 12 of Saracens got picked for the EPS - essentially seen as the top 2 EQ in their respective positions.

Farrell is probably a better 12 than 10 but still is a better 10 than Ford. He has more experience,better defence,better place and tactical kicking and more mental strength. You malign him as a 10 but as already said he outplayed Flood. I am not saying Farrell is a better 10 than Flood, simply pointing out Farrell has outperformed a much superior fly half than Ford.


How is it a false assessment? Farrell is literally in another league. AP,HC and EPS compared to the championship.

The comparison of Ford to Farrell is ludricrous. Ford isn't even AP standard yet. Farrell has won the AP with his side.

If Ford is so good why have Leicester not shown any faith in him?

Ford is potential till he proves otherwise.

The levels the way I see it - U20s, AP,HC, senior internationals.

Talk to me again on this issue when Ford does anything of note in the AP.

Comfort wrote:

beshocked wrote: Saints have only themselves to blame. Could have been 5/5 but the fine margins mean only an Amlin spot is up for grabs.

Sorry, but thats a ridiculous comment, the Scarlets tore them apart at Franklin Gardens. Absolutely tore them apart. WBP away and no LBP for Saints. Fine margins indeed

Only a Welsh fan could say a 5 point win margin is absolutely tearing opposition apart! Saints did get a LBP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/15725328.stm

A 12 point margin win for Saints must be classed as an absolute hammering.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/16461519.stm

Indeed at least we can agree on selection, style, recognition of Sarries, Farrell's best position etc...

But no, the comparison of Ford to Farrell isn't ludicrous. Indeed the only proper direct comparison one can have of the two, individually, is to be found in that U20 WC, where they competed directly with one another for the 10 shirt. Where GF outshone Farrell by a mile as a FH and as such won the IRB junior award.

I agree Ford is still by and large potential but that doesn't prevent a reasoned assessment of the two as players. And no I don't believe simply pointing to someone starting out of the position to which you are trying to compare them in the AP, means they are by matter of fact a better player than someone else in that position.

So when Farrell is starting at FH for Sarries, and when he takes the 10 shirt back as a starter for England over George Ford, then you can come back to me.

beshocked wrote:Chequered Jersey Mike Brown has indeed been in good form. Deservedly picked as the 2ND best FB behind Foden in the EPS. Simply not good enough form to force Foden to outside centre though

I am not saying Clegg is a horrible player. It's just whenever I have personally watched him he has been poor. E.g. against Exeter with the boot, against Saracens in two games - one last season and that game at Wembley... Just turned on the TV recently against Saints on ESPN and he misses a straightforward kick.

I heard he got rave reviews vs Munster but I didnt see that game.

Thank you. Well done to Quins for moving a step closer to HC quarter qualification. Always want the English teams to do.

Saints have only themselves to blame. Could have been 5/5 but the fine margins mean only an Amlin spot is up for grabs.

I agree, but we have to be aware that Foden could get injured, so I think we need to let Brown start against Italy and use him as a sub in at least one other game so that he is not thrown into the deep end (again?) if injuries do hit. For the same reason, Farrell needs to get some game time even if he doesn't start so he has some experience to cover 10 or 12, and Sharples should share starts with Strettle (who already has international experience though, and actually good pretty good in an England shirt- glad he has gotten his form back, not so glad he now plays for you lot). It is going to be a hard balance between getting all of our EPS some constructive game time and keeping continuity through the squad, but I thought that was the point of the EPS- if some members have not had any proper international experience, what is the point in having a specific pool of players rather than just picking on form before every game? We also need to see, as you say, if they can all hack it at the highest level. I think Brown will be fine (Toulouse and Munster are probably good representatives of a typical 6N side's quality) but I agree that last time he played for England he was too slow and rash and we need to see if his new pace is fast enough and if he can stay cool playing in a White Jersey.

Clegg is struggling with his kicking, so it would be better for him I think to go to a side with an experienced kicker (and maybe game manager) who is NOT a 10 (like Barkley at Bath perhaps) to get more game time with the knowledge that if he starts to fluster then there is someone outside him to relieve the pressure.

Thanks, I've got the feeling that we will get through to the QFs as runner up (We might get 5 points at Connaught, but Toulouse will beat Gloucester even if it won't be easy) but an away game against Europe's elite worries me. We can win any given game anywhere, as seen in Toulouse, but it's not something I'd bet on, and our players look knackered and we share England's problem of having a tight 5 that looks too easy to out-muscle, which could be horrible against Ulster or Leinster

beshocked wrote:What I can't understand is why everyone is so confident Brown will have a stormer if he gets the nod in the 6 nations?

Brown came off worse against his two main England rivals, Goode and Foden yet is the next big thing. Why?

Agreed. And further came off worse against Benoit Baby in the Barbarians game, even after all his work with Margot Wells. It was one mistake admittedly, but he looked short of pace and intensity even in that game for England a matter of months ago.

beshocked wrote:Niwatts where is Ford? Oh wait he's currently plying his trade for a championship side whereas Farrell is in the senior England squad.

Farrell outplayed Flood in the AP final (Tiger's first choice FH). I don't think he's too worried about an 18 year old who currently isn't AP standard. If he is why is he not picked....

Ford is falling left behind by his peers. In the U20s 6 nations he'll likely be partnered with Ben Spencer (19 year old) who in just a few months has a lot more top rugby experience. 18 games to 11 I believe including very important crunch games.

Clegg? Are you serious? I don't think I have ever seen him ever have a good game. Always seems highly erratic with the boot. Mentally fragile.

Burns and Farrell drew in their last encounter. Honours are even as far as I am concerned.

You seem to be taking my comments a bit personally beshocked, I'm not trying to have a go at Farrell, I just don't see his international future at FH, but at centre.

You say Farrell outplayed Flood in the AP final, but would you select Farrell over Flood for England?

I have no idea if Farrell is worried about Ford or not, what I stated was that both Ford & Farrell played FH for the U20s last season and Ford was noticeably better. You'll also see that I didn't actually name him as one of the players I think is currently better than Farrell, though I do think it won't be long before he climbs that list. As to why Cockerill hasn't given him more opportunities from the bench rather than Staunton, well there's the beginning of a book in the highly questionable decisions Cockerill has been making the last couple of seasons.

Clegg isn't currently particularly secure from the tee, but there's more to FH than that, and in my opinion Clegg runs a game better and gets more from a backline, which it ultimately more important in a FH as kicking is more easily refined or other kickers can be brought into the backline.

Burns would be my current third choice FH behind Flood & Hodgson. The scorelines were drawn when he & Farrell faced off at 10 a couple of weeks back (with Burns edging him in kick successes), but then Farrell was playing at home and as part of a superior team.

Chwj131 Of course the comparison is ludicrous. One is in the EPS, the other not good enough for AP rugby. One has shown they can actually match the best in the AP and the HC. The other is all hype and potential.

Ford is behind Staunton and Twelvetrees at Leicester. Let alone Flood. 4th choice FH.

Farrell is currently 2nd choice fly half for a better side.

I look more at head to heads.Farrell vs Ford - 50-25.

Do you live in a bizarre world where the junior world cup is the most important competition in the world? For all we know Farrell could have been tired or lacking the motivation/effort in the JWC. He had after all outplayed Leicester's first choice FH in the AP final - have to keep repeating this as you don't seem to acknowledge it.

U20s is definitely a level of quality below the AP.

Farrell is an AP winning fly half and has shown not to be phased at that level. Played plenty of games at 10. Compare that to Ford who is 4th choice for Leicester. No faith in him.

Farrell >>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ford

Niwatts you probably right. Farrell is more suited as a 12 but it doesn't mean he doesn't do a relatively decent job at FH.

No Flood is a more experienced more well rounded player currently. On the other hand if I wanted to play a more forward orientated game based around tactical kicking and territory I would want to play Farrell.

Ford could well get there one day but currently he is 4th choice.

In a tight game you want your kicker to nail everything. Clegg to me is a bit mentally fragile but has good potential.

I agree about Burns. That's the thing you could make a case for Burns. He has shown he is AP quality, is a pretty good all round FH.

Very well let's deal with your points in turn then shall we?

'One is in the EPS the other not good enough for AP rugby' - This statement is plainly erroneous. Farrell is, by matter of fact in the EPS, GF has played from the age of 16 in the AP. Currently he is not there, and does indeed find himself behind 36, Flood and Staunton as FH preference. I think that covers your second point.

Farrell is indeed currently second choice FH at Saracens (many would disagree that Saracens are a 'better' side). When the 'wonderful' Hougaard returns though will he still be second choice? A player spurned rightly by Leicester, but who found himself starting for Saracens.

This brings me in nicely to your criteria for judging rugby players. From what I can discern it is based on your hierarchy of appearances in the varying leagues and international level; and not based on any rounded assessment of a players attributes and potential etc...

Do you then live in a distorted world, similarly in it's level of absurdity to mine (as you claim) where unwritten rules of meritocracy are absolute and applied by all in uniform fashion? Whereby all get what they deserve and value is solely based on achievement? It, i think you would agree would lead to some odd selection issues in the arena we are currently discussing.

Take your picks for the Feb 4 th game, one's which as you know I concur. In such an instance you have picked Chris Robshaw at 6. A player who has in matter of fact won precisely bugger all (Amlin Cup aside), using your hierarchy and achievement only based assessment he should be nowhere near the England 6 berth. Above him should first and foremost be Tom Croft, a player who has won AP finals, a 6 Nations title, been a QF at a World Cup and won 3 Lions caps. Next in line should be Tom Wood, who has been in a HC final and won a 6N title, including WC QF. After that should be Phil Dowson who has been in an HC final and already won the Amlin Cup with Northampton.

Now whilst you nor I clearly agree that any of these should be ahead of Robshaw in this game, why do you pick him there. Your blunt attitude should be: If he hasn't achieved it he isn't as good a player and as such shouldn't be ahead of them. If you can accept that this is not your criteria for judging Robshaw then maybe we can go on to have a debate about the relative attributes and qualities of Farrell and Ford.

Just to finish this post in the format I stated: No I don't think JWC is the most important in the world.

No I don't need you to provide me with evidence of a sick note from Farrell's Mum to inform me that he was continually rated second best by the England U20 management team and IRB panel. No I don't accept that Farrell completely 'outplayed' Toby Flood in the AP final, a debate we could go into. I do agree U20's are not of the same intensity as some AP matches, but far better than others; and I don't accept that Farrell is so glaringly better than Ford at FH that it's ludicrous to even assert it.

And yes I agree a good case could be made for Burns, who could truly be an excellent FH. Some lovely tactical kicking, excellent pace, vision and pass and has the brain.

beshocked wrote:Niwatts you probably right. Farrell is more suited as a 12 but it doesn't mean he doesn't do a relatively decent job at FH.

No Flood is a more experienced more well rounded player currently. On the other hand if I wanted to play a more forward orientated game based around tactical kicking and territory I would want to play Farrell.

Ford could well get there one day but currently he is 4th choice.

In a tight game you want your kicker to nail everything. Clegg to me is a bit mentally fragile but has good potential.

I agree about Burns. That's the thing you could make a case for Burns. He has shown he is AP quality, is a pretty good all round FH.

You're right, he most definitely does do a very decent job at FH, and I agree that Farrell particularly suits the forward orientated game you describe.

My intial post was stating that Hodgson is playing better (something I think you agree with) and that I don't think Farrell would rise above third best FH option. We seem to both agree that Flood & Hodgson are currently better options with the others fighting out over third (Burns my choice there), and with Flood likely to stick around for a while and my feelings about Burns & Ford, I definitely think Farrell's international ambitions are best saught at centre.