nothing against alex goode but are england missing ben foden explosive pace cutting into the back line

Thinking about the England team that finished 2nd last year to the team this year are England better with Alex goode at full back or Ben foden because I think the England back line looked more dangerous last year with foden hitting the line with his explosive pace caused more damage to teams than steady hands of Alex goode

England miss pace and clinical finishing in the back three. Whether that's Foden, May, Wade another there's definitely an imbalance at the moment.

An on form Foden should definitely be back in the team, maybe rekindling the Brown at 15 and Foden at 11 partnership. Or put Wade/May in the 11 shirt.

Goode is a useful cover option but is doing nothing that Foden and Brown both can't do better IMO, perfect third choice but probably should be dropped for the Italy game.

Goode seems to be in favour with journalists, the two sets of ratings I saw had him above Brown. Didn't understand it myself, I thought Brown saw a lot less of the ball but did a fair bit more with it.

Is Foden's form up to it though?

Actually Strettle might be worth (yet another) shot in the next game, he does seem to be firing at club level finally.

I agree an in-form Foden is the best option at 15. But Foden is still working back from his injury. I understand he is supposed to be close to 100% so maybe Italy is the perfect time to find out. If he goes well then England will be in even better shape against Wales.

On a parallel subject, I also think the Italy match would be the perfect time to see Wade in for Ashton.

Id like to see this back line against Italy because I believe its the future backline for England
(9) care (10) farrel (12) twelvetrees (13) manu (14) brown (11) wade (15) foden. I think that's a very exciting strong back line pace and power

Wade normally plays on the right so probably makes more sense to have him and Brown the other way round. Exciting looking backline though.

Would be a lot of fun to watch. Probably the best attacking set of backs in a white jumper in a long, long time.

Iver way round I just think its a very strong back line id like to see it against Wales because that means to quality back lines going hammer and tongs at each other

Goode is being picked for more than just his counter-attacking play though - he's meant to get involved as an auxiliary 10 during phase play, to make up for Barritt and Tuillagi's lack of passing range. Worked excellently against NZ, but a bit less so yesterday (in part because for the first 50 minutes we struggled to put together multiple phases and get wide).

There is a limitation, that he lacks break away pace, and I do think overall our back 3 is a bit lacking in threat from deep - Brown is excellent at taking the ball and beating the first man or two (indeed, is one of the finest players I've seen for a long time at doing so), but he doesn't have length of the field pace (Ashton does, but is being targeted by the cover defenders because he's the only one that could go 50m). I'd like to see 12trees brought in to the 12 jersey as he can do the second playmaker role, so makes Goode's skills there redundant and potentially allows either Foden (whether at 11 or 15) or a genuine winger like Wade to come in.

Twelvetrees makes Alex goode pointless because twelvetrees dies what goode does and more which makes space for a better and someone with more pace which England are lacking

dummy_half wrote:
There is a limitation, that he lacks break away pace, and I do think overall our back 3 is a bit lacking in threat from deep - Brown is excellent at taking the ball and beating the first man or two (indeed, is one of the finest players I've seen for a long time at doing so), but he doesn't have length of the field pace

See - I think he does these days, he's just got a deceptive running style that doesn't make it obvious how fast he's going. Apparently he's quicker than Monye in the Quins speed tests.

Goode is extremely skilful but his lack of pace and power is a bit of a problem. Foden used to be a scrum half, so if they're set on having a full back who can add an extra passing option in midfield then I don't see why he couldn't do it.

Yes England are missing a fit and on-form Ben Foden. However he is still coming back to fitness and (according to reports) is struggling a little for form.

thomh wrote:

dummy_half wrote:
There is a limitation, that he lacks break away pace, and I do think overall our back 3 is a bit lacking in threat from deep - Brown is excellent at taking the ball and beating the first man or two (indeed, is one of the finest players I've seen for a long time at doing so), but he doesn't have length of the field pace

See - I think he does these days, he's just got a deceptive running style that doesn't make it obvious how fast he's going. Apparently he's quicker than Monye in the Quins speed tests.

Goode is extremely skilful but his lack of pace and power is a bit of a problem. Foden used to be a scrum half, so if they're set on having a full back who can add an extra passing option in midfield then I don't see why he couldn't do it.

I agree. His acceleration nowadays looks so quick, especially over the first few meters. I often blitzes the first few defenders and makes a nice little break.

I'd like to see Foden back in the squad, Goode is a reliable Fullback but Foden has a spark about him Goode doesn't.

I'd also like to see Wade against Italy, Brown has done ok but he just isn't a winger and Ashton is shockingly bad at present and is a yellow/red card waiting to happen, I say let Manu hit him again.

Back 3 to play Italy;

11 - Foden
14- Wade
15- Brown

Sorry, I think Goode should be dropped in favour of Brown who is a far better attacking FB, he's like Foden but with an arrogance where he refuses to stay tackled.

36 should start with Manu and Wade and Strettle to come in

We must make sure we dont underestimate Italy of course...but i would like to see the following backline...

9 - Youngs / Care
10 - Farrell
11 - Wade
12 - Twelvetrees
13 - Tuilagi
14 - Foden
15 - Brown

Can you see Lancaster making that many changes though geordie? It would be a bit out of character. I think he likes having the option of Goode as kicker/reciever so is unlikely to drop him for now.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Can you see Lancaster making that many changes though geordie? It would be a bit out of character. I think he likes having the option of Goode as kicker/reciever so is unlikely to drop him for now.

Can't see so many changes, so would like:

1. Wade in for Ashton
or
2. Wade in for Brown. Brown to 15. Goode to the bench.

Option 2 would be best if 36 were at 12, but that would be another change. I'd like to see that change for 30 minutes.

No mate i cant see it at all...he might tweak it a bit...but in general he will go with the same side...

One of the key changes could be a fit again Billy Vunipola coming in?? Think Lawes will be back on the bench.

I should think you are right about Lawes. Lancaster talked before the french game about the game being won in the last 20 mins (which he was right about) and the importance of a strong bench (again correct). Having Lawes, Mako V., T. Youngs and Care to come on can really change a game.

If both Billy V. and Morgan are fit I think he is more likely to go with Morgan as he knows him? Also in the backrow Haskell looked good when he came on (although Lawes had set the bar pretty low) but theres no way he would replace Wood/Robshaw and he clearly isnt trusted at 8.

so Lancaster and 'risks'

Key to it all is a Tuesday session in which England’s extended squad of 30 split into two: the team and replacements. Lancaster and his staff set up different scenarios that the players might face in the coming international and teach the response. Off-field coaching, he calls it.

Quizzed about the effectiveness of the idea, Lancaster appeared to be stumbling towards saying the shadow squad caused England more problems than France, until wisely checking his speech to avoid a diplomatic incident. England are as anxious to suppress accusations of arrogance as they are premature talk of a Grand Slam.

‘On Tuesday we give the players a simulated game with different scenarios, things to deal with,’ Lancaster began. ‘When you look at the quality of those 30 players the guys that were in the other 15 actually caused us more problems than, er, well — they gave us the sort of problems that were good for our defence to deal with.

‘We had a back line of Danny Care, Toby Flood, Billy Twelvetrees, Joel Tomkins, David Strettle, which is a pretty good group to play against.

I think we're likely to see one of Morgan and Vunipola start against Italy, with Wood going back to 6. It might depend on which of them gets club starts this weekend.

On the backs - one slight concern with Brown on the left wing is that I think his kicking game is a bit overrated. He can hit them miles but they tend to curve loads, meaning that when kicking to the left touchline he doesn't get the distance he should. That would be less of a problem at full back, and he's a great last line of defence (outstanding for a full back at getting up and slowing the ball down after the tackle). That might mean bringing Twelvetrees back in at 12, and it would be interesting to see whether a Twelvetrees and Tuilagi combination could give Lancaster a selection problem for the Wales game.

As an Ireland and Munster fan I can appreciate why Goode is picked. He is a very good player who makes the correct decisions all the time. His tactical kicking is world class and he creates space in open play.

Bathman,

I appreciate what Hartley gives us....but im starting to edge towards prefering Tom Youngs Starting. He's just more dynamic...and dare i say he actually looks more physical despite the considerable size difference. He is what they hoped Lee Mears would be....

I think Lancaster has been very clever...whilst he has kept a very stable settled team..which is essential, he hasnt been afraid to make changes or take the odd risk...

Wood to 8 with Lawes at 6 for example.
Tom Youngs getting capped despite few actual Club games
Mike Brown at 11
etc

In 35 years of supporting England, from the famine of the late 70's through the Carling era to the SCW and beyond I can honestly say that I've never seen so many strong candidates fighting out for a place in the team. Not long ago we had no real second row (although Borthwick was and is under-rated) and our centres were very flaky. Now we even have competition in these areas. There are still some positions where when the first choice is unavailable, we do have problems, loosehead and numlber 8 being the most pressing. With Corbs and Morgan fit we look a lot more effective.

Fullback is an interesting one, as I agree that we do lack real pace in the back 3, but Goode is very safe under the high ball and his "exit" (latest buzzword) is excellent, but for me I want more threat in attack. So Brown at 15, with Ashton/Wade and Foden on the wings would offer a fairly tasty, dangerous backline.

"There are still some positions where when the first choice is unavailable, we do have problems, loosehead"

Not sure i would call Loosehead a problem mate...the only time we have really struggled was ironically against the Aussies...and marler reportedly had a knee injury.
That includes playing and beating the AB's, France, Ireland and Scotland.
Marler and Vunipola have looked comfortable without being exceptional...but hey they are both young...so im perfectly fine with that.

Tight Head on the other hand... is a concern...there are players coming through...but they are still very young and just looking to start their AP careers let along be considered for international. Davy Wilson is an ok cover...but i dont rate PDJ.

An injury to Cole would be the biggest blow of any position in the team i think.

I'd agree with wanting Foden back in the side purely for pace! The current backline severely lacks it. Currently Care/Youngs and Ashton are the only players I'd back to outpace someone to the line.

As such I'd like to see 11.Foden 14.Ashton/Wade 15.Brown - Brown's the best full-back we have so let's play him there!

Looking to the future I'd love to see Johnny May contesting with Foden for the left wing role. Both have good core skills, experience playing across the back 3 and bags of pace. I know I keep repeating this to death but if he can get fit I'd still love to see JSD on the right as well.

JSD Carlos? You hopeless old romantic you!

Geordie, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, that Corb was at losehead against the AB's and since then our scrum has not looked dominant. Just about held its own against the Scots, but came off a close second IMO against both Ireland and France. Cole seems to be far more effective scrummaging with Corb, but without him the England Ireland 2012 scrum massacre seem far away.

I know I keep repeating this to death but if he can get fit I'd still love to see JSD on the right as well

Thats one of those what if thoughts...

He should have been up there as one of the worlds top players of his generation...he had the lot...except steering clear of flipping injuries.

I think we need to focus on Wade and Johnny May as potential England wingers...Wade should start v Italy in place of Ashton.

What about the likes of Marlon yarde etc??

3wc's

Even in that summary...coming off a very close second to a strong France front row and fairly experienced Ireland front row and competing evenly with a good scottish front row with:

Marler in his second international season at 22 yo ?
Vunipola in his first season at 20?
Tom Youngs in his first season
and Cole...one of the worlds best.

So we faced those sides with very young front rows who've most certainly held their own.....and imagine Marler, Vunipola and Youngs with even just another 10 caps under their belt...they should be more confortable with the level and thus their performance will be a different level again.

Yep I hate to say it but he probably will be resigned to the what if thoughts now... Until there is no possibility of him playing at 2015 I'm afraid I'll keep pushing the point however.

Agreed Wade and May are the two youngsters furthest up my pecking order at the moment. In terms of the other youngsters I'd say most are a few steps behind those two but there's plenty of talent there.

11.Foden, May
14.Ashton, Wade (JSD)
15.Brown, Goode

The above would be my pecking order as it stands. Not bad options really and if Ashton can learn how to tackle and remember how to score it'll start looking a hell of lot stronger again!

I have nothing against him either and I think England should keep picking him. He is useless

welshboii15 wrote:Thinking about the England team that finished 2nd last year to the team this year are England better with Alex goode at full back or Ben foden because I think the England back line looked more dangerous last year with foden hitting the line with his explosive pace caused more damage to teams than steady hands of Alex goode

The answer is brown at FB.

He drives through like no other IMO

I would be against radical tactical changes at this stage of the tournament. Barritt is doing a very good job and possibly playing himself into Lions contention, while Goode is doing a good job playing as a second playmaker at 15. It may not be producing the prettiest rugby, but it is getting results.

Try out the Plan B in the summer with Twelvetrees and Foden coming in, but now why change what's working?

its not about changing whats working its about constant refinment!

I think replacing Ashton for Wade would be a great move.

I think that you'd look very sharp against Italy with:

09 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Brown
15 Goode

red_stag wrote:I think replacing Ashton for Wade would be a great move.

I think that you'd look very sharp against Italy with:

09 Youngs
10 Farrell
11 Wade
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 Brown
15 Goode

Farrell is a serious doubt for Italy - still recovering from the leg injury suffered against France.

Actually, of all the games to drop Ashton, Italy would not be the one I'd choose - he's a very good try scorer against the 'lesser' teams, and I don't think Italy have quite the same ball carrying power (in Parisse's absence) as the teams that have exposed Ashton's defence (after all, other than missing Fofana after Lawes had waved him through, mostly Ashton's missed tackles have been on SOB and Picamoles, perhaps the two most powerful carriers in the 6Ns).
If you want to give Wade a game, put him on Brown's wing and move Brown to full back, dropping Goode (who has done nothing wrong, but he doesn't offer the same ball-carrying threat as the other back 3 players and his playmaking skills become redundant with 36 starting).

"If you want to give Wade a game, put him on Brown's wing and move Brown to full back, dropping Goode "


that is my solotion tbh.

England are missing Danny Cipriani's attacking prowess. Perhaps Stuart Lancaster could consider playing Cipriani at Full-Back.

Not sure why Foden is being championed he's shown no form for about a year. I wouldn't have him in the EPS currently.

Goode has given England a lot of solidarity at fb. He is tactically excellent with the boot andadds an additional play maker to the backline. Brown just doesn't do that. Drop Goode from the backline and there is considerably more pressure on the 10. There's no additional option to turn too and no secondary play maker. Brown offers more power and pace, Foden offers more pace and a step but neither offer the same tactical nous and that nous has been key to England playing in the right areas of the pitch.