Declan Kidney: Great Man Manager or Luckiest Man Alive

by **Ozzy3213** Fri Jan 27, 2012 10:40 am

First topic message reminder :

On Saturday 24th May 2008 Declan Kidney masterminded Munsters triumph over Toulouse in the Heineken Cup final in Cardiff. Shortly after he was appointed to the role of head coach of the Ireland national team, and just months later had led them to the 6 Nations title and their first grand slam since 1948. The IRB coach of the year award followed later in 2009, a year in which another Irish province, Leinster, won the Heineken Cup.

During Kidneys reign as Ireland supremo, Leinster have in fact won the Heineken Cup twice, and also made the Celtic League play off final twice. Munster have won the Celtic twice in the same period, and Ulster have established themselves as a top half of the table side, making last years play off semi final, along with the knockout stages of the Heineken Cup. So far this season, those three provinces have all qualified for the knockout stages of Europes premier club competition again, and all sit within the top half of the Rabo Direct table, with Leinster top and Munster currently set for the play offs.

It is clear looking the results of the provinces, and the players coming through the academy systems in Ireland, that the set up there is good, and they are producing players capable of performing to a very high level. Whilst overseas stars may have grabbed the headlines in Ulster's recent demolition of Leicester Tigers, homegrown talent such as Rory Best, Chris Henry, Paul Marshall, Paddy wallace and Andrew Trimble all contributed hugely, much as the likes of Sean O'Brien, Jamie Heaslip, Johnny Sexton, Paul O'Connell, Ronan O'Gara and Keith Earls have done for Leinster and Munster respectively.

Ulster performance in that game was driven by an intensity usually associated with teams from the Southern Hemisphere, but that has also ben shown regularly by Leinster, and most recently by Munster in their demolition of Northampton Saints at Stadium MK. It is clear from these performances that the players have it in them to go up against anyone, and win, yet it is fair to say that it just has not happened regularly enough when they pull on the green shirt of Ireland.

As stated at the beginning of this piece, Kidneys reign began with glory, and the period since has seen sustained excellence and continued upward progression from 3 of the 4 Irish provinces. Yet at international level, if you look at tournament results, Ireland have declined year on year. From grand slam winners in 2009, to runners in up 2010 and then to third place in the 2011 6 Nations tournament. In each of the previous two competitions, there has been a standout, high intensity performance, such as the victory over England which denied them the grand slam last year, but there has been an inability to deliver performances consistently at that level.

The recent World Cup was no different. Ireland began with a less than convincing victory over the USA, before finding their one big performance to beat Australia, and also deny them even a losing bonus point. Wins against Russia and Italy followed, before being dumped out in the quarter final by the Welsh. Now at Celtic League and Heineken Cup level, Welsh regions victories over Irish provinces, particularly in key games, are rare, the Ospreys Final win over Leinster in 2010 being the exception So the question has to be asked why the levels of performance are not consistently replicated at international level.

The players are the same, with Connacht providing very few to the national squad, and there are plenty of occasions where provincial combinations have been used in the national shirt, so why this relative failure to perform on the biggest stage? The only conclusion that I can draw from what I have seen is that the answer has be Declan Kidney. He is clearly an intelligent man and a good coach, you do not win the trophies that he did with Munster if you are not, however something clearly is not right, as results reflect.

There are those who will argue that he does not select on form and favours the old guard (particularly from Munster) over younger more dynamic alternatives, yet his fans will point to the likes of Cian Healy and Sean O'Brien as examples of younger men that he has brought in to the side. There are also those who will argue that tactically he is stuck in the past, and sees the game through the same eyes that he did whilst at Munster between 2005 and 2008, and this hampers the team as the game has moved on even in that short time. Those who feel he is the right man for the job will counter this by highlighting those dynamic performances already mentioned against England and Australia, as evidence that he is trying to get the team to play in a modern, more dynamic way.

So what is the truth? Is Declan Kidney the right man to take Ireland on to the next level, and have them dominating Northern Hemisphere rugby in the same way that their provincial sides are dominating the club game? Or is he merely a false prophet, hiding behind success at Munster and initially with Ireland which was built more on the ability of the players at his disposal, rather than any great tactical nous or man management from him?

The next 8 weeks will hopefully give us some of the answers. Ireland will be without BOD, and Kidney will have to show that he is able to select the right man to fill his boots. Other than O'Driscoll, ireland have the majority of their best players available, and they are all in form, so there can be no excuses for not getting the best from them. In contrast England are an unknown quantity, France have a new coach and squad, and Wales will be missing key players through injury. If Ireland continue their downward trend since winning the 2009 6 Nations, and finish 4th or below in this competition, then surely Kidney's time must be up, as the answer to the question of what the truth is about him will be clear. On the other hand, Ireland may win the thing again, but I suspect the question will remain, great man manager, or just plain lucky at being Ireland coach at a time where the players at his disposal are better than their counterparts elsewhere in Europe.

by Gibson Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:38 am

Lads,
We banter. We jive. But, Id love to see Deccie take us to the Holy Land. He's just a lovely man. An intelligent, reserved and classy - gent. It all depends on how much he is learning on the International job and how he alters things along the way. Including Murray and Jones, last minute, pre RWC, gives me inner-hope.

Believe.

But no phhokin Paddy Wallace roysh.

by Pot Hale Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:54 am

[quote="Gibson"]

DOD wrote: what I saw against Saints, blew all present misconceptions of Munster - out of the water.... It was like watching an aul conservative Auntie, do a sexy-strip on the dance-floor.

Classic.

Am cutting this out to put on my desk for the Munster fans in the office.

by Goosestepper Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:08 am

IRFU could say sorry to Gatland for shafting him and offer him a 1 year pay for performance contract, season pass to funderland and the keys to the Anglo building on the quays........ I'd say he come running back like a beaten hound getting its belly tickled

by The Great Aukster Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:34 am

I was in Edinburgh for the worst Ireland performance I've ever seen (saying something) and it was because Gatland hadn't a clue how to coach a team.
He has to be the 'luckiest man alive' to still be in rugby coaching.

by red_stag Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:45 am

Gibson wrote:But no phhokin Paddy Wallace roysh.

He came as part of the Good Friday Agreement Very Happy

by **rodders** Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:00 am

red_stag wrote:
Gibson wrote:But no phhokin Paddy Wallace roysh.

He came as part of the Good Friday Agreement

cracker!

by ME-109 Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:23 am

We could always have another island wide referendum on Paddys inclusion.

Anyway some people are being a little unfair, last weekend he was very good.

by Thomond Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:24 am

Rodders, Stag stole the joke, he isn't that witty Wink

You don't win what Kidney has with luck. He is on thin ice and his decisions have been questionable(Gaffney), I think he has done a good job in creating competition despite what others think.

by Thomond Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:31 am

A chuckle reaches down into the grand canyon of his rib-cage, triggering great, jolly tremors as John Hayes considers his typical day.

"I'm still trying to figure it out," he says with a booming laugh. The beginning of the rest of his life throbs with everyday duties -- an early-morning run to Tineteriffe National School with Sally, then back to the farm for a day of high glamour before Sally's pick-up in the evening and, lastly, the gentle tyrannies of dinner-time as a house-husband.

His body has stopped creaking, the sense of strangeness is abating.

He says the first time his new circumstance really hit home was two weeks ago as he sprawled on the couch watching Munster beat Castres.

Fiona and the kids were with him. So too his parents and a brother. "It was weird," he says, "knowing that you're not part of it anymore."

Home is a fine house of slate-grey stone, sunk into the family land less than a mile outside Cappamore, on the Newport road. All wooden beams and lovely, open-plan freedom, it accommodates his size as well as the refinements of the three women in his life.

Roisin, her hair a riot of golden curls, demands his attention as if he is some junior member of her personal staff. He picks her up and pushes the three-year-old high towards the rafters. She shrieks in delight.

"No fear," chuckles the man known as 'The Bull', his great arms accustomed to bigger weight.

Soon the suckling cows will be calving and he'll be setting his alarm for 3am torchlight checks of the farm's maternity ward. This is his life now. He knows what Fiona has given him and now, maybe, her ambitions might get the air they need to breathe.

Ireland's most capped women's rugby player, she is an accomplished coach too, armed already with a Grade Two badge.

Work as a physiotherapist takes her to Nenagh General Hospital, but rugby is Fiona's passion. Hayes smiles. "She'd have more coaching ambitions than I'd have," he chuckles. If rugby has more chapters to write for this household, it will be written in his wife's hand.

But, for now, he is determined to keep the game a little at arm's length. There are no plans to attend Heineken Cup or Six Nations matches this year.

And he won't be chasing old comrades' company. The Munster players like to lunch at a particular restaurant in Castletroy after training but, if he finds himself in Limerick any day soon, 'Delish' will be the last place on his map.

"I don't want to be in denial," he says. "You have to change. Like, in time, I'll probably go in and meet the lads again, but not now. I'm not between training sessions anymore. It's finished. I don't want to be hanging on. I just feel it's time for me to let them at it.

"Like, I haven't worn a tracksuit since I finished. I've made an absolute decision on that. It's going to be either jeans or combats or something else. If I'm going anywhere now, I won't wear anything sporty. That part of my life is over."

The public affection so palpable at his Christmas farewell game left a profound imprint. But, at 38, 'Bull' Hayes understands that nostalgia and sentiment and even a nation's unequivocal love cannot protect a man from time. For all the things he will miss, there are a hundred others that he won't.

His body, he knew, had begun to acknowledge the voice of protest.

"Training was getting harder and harder," he concedes. "Going in on a Monday and Tuesday, when you'd be doing contact training, was starting to take its toll. I'd go out on the field, thinking, 'F**k, something's aching.' But you'd get running then and you'd get going. You'd always get going. After 20 minutes, you'd be fine.

"Me and Dougie Howlett would have the craic. We'd be running past one another and make eye contact. 'You cranking up as well?' I'd say to him. We'd be laughing. He's younger than me, but kind of in the same boat. We'd be the oul fellas, jogging up and down, trying to get going.

"And you'd see the young lads, zero to flat-out straight away. I couldn't do that. Training standards keep going up and up and I was always able to go with it. But now I was starting to slow down and there was a gap beginning to appear.

"I found it harder and harder to feel that I was part of it."

THE WORLD CUP had been his rainbow and, once it disappeared, the strain of his chores stiffened. It was the week before the Ireland squad announcement and Declan Kidney called him to his room in Carton House. 'Bull' Hayes says he knew what was coming. Declan likes to think his face is a blank page but, to those who really know the Irish coach, his body language is poor at keeping secrets. Their conversation was short and strictly formal.

"Literally two minutes," he recalls. "I mean I knew the minute I walked in the door what it (Kidney's decision) was going to be. He wasn't calling me in to tell me, 'You're going!' I could see the look on his face.

"He just said, 'John, I don't have a place for you.' I said, 'That's fine.' He was explaining that it was just the make-up of the squad, how they were going with four props, taking fellas that could play both sides. I didn't fit in.

"I suppose other, younger fellas might have had a longer conversation. I mean, if you're only 22 in that position, you're going to be asking, 'What do I need to do to get in the next time?' But there wasn't going to be a next time for me. What had I to ask? Do I need to work on my defence?

"I was as fit as I could be so if they thought my legs were starting to go, then that was fair enough. I just said, 'Thanks. Good luck'."

Two days later, he faced the peculiar torture of a game with Connacht in Donnybrook. His final day in green. A soporific August Thursday, the 'Ireland Select XI' rolling over out-stretched opponents by six tries to nil. Hard to get himself up for it?

"Aaah Jesus," he grimaces. Marcus Horan replaced him after 49 ambling minutes. "I went up to play, then home and that was it."

He'd been due to retire at the end of last season, but the lure of a possible World Cup swansong led to a contract extension and a summer of intensifying effort. Hayes hoped he had done enough.

"I wouldn't have tried if I didn't think I'd make it," he reflects now. "I didn't for a minute think I was going to be first-choice on the team or anything, but I thought I had a shot at the squad.

"I'd got back on the Munster team at the end of last season and played it out. I was happy with my form. But that was last season. I was nearly 38. You are what you are at that age.

"So, I think t'was more to do with fitness. Did they think I could last the pace? I was conscious of really working hard for the summer, so my fitness couldn't be a reason. Unfortunately, it didn't happen.

"I wouldn't say I was gutted. I gave it a go. Like I can't sit here and say, 'Ah f**k it, if only I'd done a bit more...' The way I look at it, I trained as hard as I could. I did everything I could do. It didn't happen. It was the end of the career anyway. And I kind of accepted it."

So ended one of the great, accidental journeys in Irish rugby history.

For the 'Bull' Hayes story followed none of the conventions for so long considered de rigeur in the game.

He grew up in a GAA household and his childhood dreams were bound up, largely, in Limerick hurling. He'd come into the world two months after Eamonn Grimes lifted the Liam MacCarthy Cup. He won a Limerick minor 'B' hurling championship from centre-back with Cappamore in 1990 and made an East Limerick Primary School selection alongside Ollie and James Moran.

But his world changed one evening, closing the front gate of the family home.

A neighbour he'd met regularly at the creamery had been selling the charms of Bruff Rugby Club. John O'Dea could see a potential second-row in the tall, skinny eldest son of Mike Hayes. "Come down, you'd love it," he'd say. And John Hayes would nod, delivering another false promise.

But this evening O'Dea happened to be passing as 'Bull' pulled the gate. "I'm going training tonight, will you come?" he asked. When Hayes agreed, O'Dea said he'd be back to collect him in 20 minutes. "If I hadn't met him, I'd never have gone," he smiles now.

That was a Tuesday night and the following Sunday an epic career got under way with the now storied 0-0 draw against Newcastlewest. "Straight in, blindside flanker, not a f*****g clue!" he recalls, the laughter bursting out of him.

"Didn't even know the rules. I remember being ahead of the kicker, everything. It was a pre-season game and the standard was 'malojin' I'd say. I'd give anything to get a video of it, to see how bad it really was.

"The thing is, picking up a rugby ball wasn't even considered in Cappamore. I didn't even know anyone that played the game. I'd no friends or relations playing rugby. But from the moment I started, I loved it. Something about it, the way you could just tear in."

Bruff didn't have an U-20 team, so he transferred to Shannon under the care of Brendan Foley. Then a light bulb went on in his head. A Kiwi of his acquaintance, Kynan McGregor, had just gone back to New Zealand after marrying a Bruff girl. Hayes phoned him with an idea. "How's about I come and play rugby in your town?"

He'd never been on a plane before but, in one dramatic swoop, became an aviation veteran. It took him 40 hours to reach Invercargill, via Shannon, Heathrow, Los Angeles, Auckland and Christchurch. But he liked his new home immediately. "It was very remote and agricultural," Hayes remembers. "You'd see tractors driving up and down the street. Cattle trucks."

He would stay for 20 months, piling on weight and self-confidence. During the week, he worked as a welder on the maintenance crew in a tannery. At weekends, he went to war.

Marist's scrum coach, 'Doc' Cournane, observed his changing body shape and decided the front-row might be 'Bull's' workplace. He will forever remember his first game. It was against Woodlands and a vast prop called Aaron Dempsey. "Got f*****g mangled," he laughs. "They put me in at loose-head and the shock to the system was unbelievable.

"Every muscle in my neck and back felt like it was trapped afterwards. It was days before I was any way right again."

Shannon were in on the experiment, Brian O'Brien phoning regularly for updates. When Hayes finally came home, he was neither one thing nor another. Some days a second-row, others a prop. Shannon would win four AILs in a row under Niall O'Donovan, but Hayes was a regular selection only for the last two.

By 1998, he'd won a single, summer tour cap for Munster when he met Anthony Foley one day in Limerick. Foley had just seen Ireland's squad announcement for a tour of South Africa on teletext. "He told me I was in," says Hayes. "I didn't believe him."

At the time, he was back welding in Willie Conway's engineering firm. He'd need time off. As he contemplated telling Willie, Munster called, offering a full-time contract. His days as a welder were over.

The rest is a scrapbook of Munster's and Ireland's greatest days. He was one of five new caps making their debuts against Scotland in the Six Nations of 2000. They put him rooming with Peter Clohessy in the Berkeley Court, ostensibly to calm him. Clohessy had some fun.

"I was wound up," recalls Hayes. "I'd be lying on the bed, tossing and turning. And Claw's across from me watching television, laughing. 'What's up ya?' he'd say. "Then he'd burst out laughing which, in fairness, was making me laugh too."

Having trailed by 10 points, Ireland rallied to win 44-22. The subsequent night is a mystery. "I remember it up to a point," he grins. "After that, it's just a blur. Got absolutely hammered. Shaggy (Shane Horgan), ROG (Ronan O'Gara) and myself were picked on as new fellas.

"I can just about remember walking up to get my cap. But that's about it. There was loads of wine and shorts and I've never gone near either since. I gave up drink altogether about six years ago. But just the smell of wine or whiskey makes me sick since that day in 2000. If I smell them, I start to gag."

Ireland soon followed that win with their first victory in Paris since 1972. "T'was ridiculous," says Hayes. "You think back now and it strikes you that we haven't won there since. We didn't even appreciate it. With young fellas, I suppose that's what you get."

There have been momentous highs and crippling lows since. He will forever curse the moment at Croke Park in '07 he was left one-on-one with Vincent Clerc. "I missed the tackle," he sighs. "Looked around and, f**k it, couldn't believe he'd scored. It wasn't about the Grand Slam gone. It was more we'd lost the first rugby game in Croke Park."

He made the Lions tours of '05 and '09 and built friendships that he will take to the grave. The second tour was more enjoyable. He'd been put on stand-by and, by his own admission, "did absolutely nothing". Then Euan Murray got injured in a Tuesday night game and on the Wednesday a girl came on the line, asking would he take a call from Ian McGeechan.

"Jesus, I will, yeah." Within 24 hours he was in a Lions tracksuit and would play in the third Test. A few months earlier, he'd added a Grand Slam to his Triple Crowns and two Heineken Cup successes. John Hayes was the most decorated prop Irish rugby had ever known.

HE HAS AN EXERCISE bike in the house, but chuckles, "Some of the fellas will laugh when they hear that." His body is still adjusting to the post-professional life. He notices the involuntary groans no longer sound when he gets up off the couch. Pain he once took as part of living has disappeared.

But he will remain wary of this gentler lifestyle until he sees what it deposits on his frame.

"I don't want to get heavy," he says emphatically. "It's going to be interesting to see what way my body shape goes. I'm obviously going to lose muscle, but will I go down in weight or up? Axel Foley obviously went up, if you've seen him lately (laughing). I don't want to go that way!"

Chances are, Hayes won't be a coach. The gene that drives Fiona in that direction is conspicuously absent from his own persona. "I'd like to help out, but maybe not that way," says 'Bull' Hayes. "If young fellas ever wanted a one-to-one or something like that to ask for advice, I definitely feel I could do that."

Whatever he does, he'll do it quietly. That won't change.

Indo article on Hayes. Classy guy is John and kudos to Deccie for being upfront to Hayes.

by Gibson Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:52 am

DOD wrote:We could always have another island wide referendum on Paddys inclusion.

Anyway some people are being a little unfair, last weekend he was very good.

Yeah man, but not good enough to play for us. Its a waste of a place. And everyone knows it. Except...

by Gibson Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:58 am

God Bless im. Tank Allah for Ross.

by **rodders** Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:25 am

Great article Thomond

by SecretFly Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:21 pm

Read above somewhere that Schmidt is 'overrated'. And that a few of us are losing the run of ourselves thinking 'he can do anything'. Well personally, I've never seen him make a good cup of tea so I wouldn't be prepared to speculate on the idea of 'anything'!

Meanwhile, back at the European coalface of rugby, I see a logic in saying that the Provinces' most pro-actively attack orientated coach, the provinces' most rotation-savvy coach, the provinces most successful extant coach in a Europe awash with allegedly world-class club coaches can have his hand held aloft for him by some on here and championed as a pretty good coach and thus he's rated highly - so far! We all know there is a future out there, ready to trip you up - Kidney found his after his first year in charge of Ireland. Was he overrated when he helped us win a GS? Was O'Sullivan overrated with his TripleCrown tally?

You only get to be overrated after you've done enough to get a rating in the first place. So, if Schmidt is an overrated club coach in European terms (for that's what we're rating him on, not on a non-existant International record), then there's a whole raft of such coaches throughout Europe wallowing in the mud beneath him.

by red_stag Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:25 pm

Fly,

He is a top coach dont misquote me. My point is merely that he has done no more than Cheika or Kidney before him but is credited much higher than either of them.

My point is that Leinster owe much to Greg Feek, Jono Gibbes and Michael Cheika - IMO they did more for Leinster than Schmidt has done so far which many fans forget.

by SecretFly Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:59 pm

Stag, no, Schmidt's not credited above them in my book. Cheika did what he did, and we all knew what needed to be done with an always slinky, backs orientated side in Leinster - he toughened them up and put a defensive backbone in. Kidney's Munster period - I was shouting as hard as any Munster man and loving it.

Cheika did his work. But yes too, I don't think it's a secret that I personally am a 'backs' focused man. Others specialise in other departments as observers but I've always loved Leinster's more Welsh than English feel - if you get me. So obviously, I love the style of rugby Leinster play now under Schmidt; but winning is still the objective. Winning with creativity and endless pace.

I think what I feel when I hear these debates on who might be the new coach, and I hear Irish names mentioned often simply because they are Irish - lazily named at times as if the Law book states it will be one of the predicted short list - well I get a little disheartened because it tells me that many in Ireland still haven't woken up and are still oh so suspicious of this highly paced, high-offloading, circumnavigating opposing forward packs rather than going through them game. They're suspicious of it. It's not us. It's not who we are. It's not our traditions. It's okay for some club rugby but at International level we'll be found out if we try it.

So whenever I mention Schmidt - it's not so much him I'm talking about as a philosophy he brings. Nobody in Munster can tell me they didn't love Munster's game against Saints. They did. And they loved it because the players themselves seemed to love it. Our modern young men want a more SH orientated game - loose, fast and incessant. We have played it at times in Ireland but everytime it hits a snag, we seem to veer away from it again. Back to the safe ground of hard ground fought in a slow hard fought forward battle.

by Thomond Sat Jan 28, 2012 1:43 pm

Fly, the fact that Schmidt is not Irish would make me think that Declan's tea making skills are far superior to Joe Schmidt's.

by Feckless Rogue Sat Jan 28, 2012 2:41 pm

It's true you could argue that Schmidt walked into just about the easiest coaching job in Europe. Cheika had built a brilliant organization, the Heineken Cup winning players were already there. Gibbes has done a wonderful job with the forwards. Feek is a great scrum coach. Kurt McQuilkin had drilled Leinster into a superb defensive side before he left.

But the reason we love Schmidt is because nearly everything has improved under him. Particularly in attack. Under Schmidt they've become the best attacking team in the Heineken Cup. Most of the individual performances of players have improved too. Madigan, Toner and Kearney have obviously made huge improvements this season. The overall style of rugby Leinster play is something Schmidt can take credit for.

In terms of results, we won the Heineken Cup and came 2nd in the league last year. This year we topped our pool for a home quarter final and are top of the league. We've only ever lost one HEC match under Schmidt. Away to Clermont during an injury crisis, but still got the bonus point. How can Schmidt not be highly rated given his results and performances?

by ME-109 Sat Jan 28, 2012 3:58 pm

Jumpers for goalposts Fly...your favourite sketch I would say.
Don't be so condescending about people who mention Irish coaches. Why not look at young coaches like O'Shea and Bradley
Look at the type of rugby their teams aspire to play, open, fast and attack oriented. But clearly you are from the brigade where foreign must be better...and worse they must be SH. Yet with your rush to get someone from their everyone including yourself is that kidneys team is all SH. Including the recently left backs coach who two years or so ago could do no wrong for leinster.

You probably would have cheered for Brian Ashton when he took over Ireland, and we all know what happened then.

by **rodders** Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:03 pm

red_stag wrote:Fly,

He is a top coach dont misquote me. My point is merely that he has done no more than Cheika or Kidney before him but is credited much higher than either of them.

It's not what you do Stag it's the way that you do it. The brand of rugby that Schmidt has Leinster playing is the most effective way to play the game in the current era.

What's even more impressive is that no matter who comes into the side the style and gameplan doesn't change, everyone knows the system and what their role is. Thats amazing and its down to the coach and whats going on behind the scenes.

It's the simple things that Leinster are doing far better than anyone else: The ball presentation and ruck clear outs...two men in boom...quick ball.

Notice they never wait for the scrum half, 1st man there acts as scrum half, be it Jennings, Cullen, even the 'rookies' like O'Malley, so unlike other teams the tempo never drops unless they want it to. Its like poetry in motion it really is. So simple but other sides aren't doing these things as effectively.

And then the pack can front up to..20 minutes solid Leinster defended their line against a huge Montpellier pack, holding them up 3 times over the line. Ball goes up the other end and Healy drives over and scores 1st time. Incredible.

I think its awesome that an Irish side can play like this. They aren't unbeatable but the only side comparable in World rugby right now are the All Blacks in my opinion.

by Feckless Rogue Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:11 pm

I agree DOD. Both O'Shea and Bradley are getting good attacking play from their teams.

I think O'Shea could be a good call in the future. Quins have improved a lot under him. But maybe needs a few more years there dealing with all the ups and downs that will come, before he's ready for the international job.

Bradley's only a few months into his first season at Edinburgh. I think he might actually have been invited to be involved in the Scottish underage sides? Can anyone confirm that? He needs time too.

Both could be good candidates but I don't think either are ready yet. What's your problem with a foreign coach in the meantime? Maybe some foreign idea's fusing with Irish ones could be helpful?

Or maybe Kidney will redeem himself this year and lead us to a 6 nations title and a win in New Zealand. In that case we won't need to hire a new coach for a while.

by UlstermaninGlasgow Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:24 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I agree DOD. Both O'Shea and Bradley are getting good attacking play from their teams.

I think O'Shea could be a good call in the future. Quins have improved a lot under him. But maybe needs a few more years there dealing with all the ups and downs that will come, before he's ready for the international job.

Bradley's only a few months into his first season at Edinburgh. I think he might actually have been invited to be involved in the Scottish underage sides? Can anyone confirm that? He needs time too.

Both could be good candidates but I don't think either are ready yet. What's your problem with a foreign coach in the meantime? Maybe some foreign idea's fusing with Irish ones could be helpful?

Or maybe Kidney will redeem himself this year and lead us to a 6 nations title and a win in New Zealand. In that case we won't need to hire a new coach for a while.

Feckless he's the Scotland A coach and so will be coaching quite a few of the up and coming Scottish talent

by Feckless Rogue Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:31 pm

Regarding the style of play, I believe Ireland should be playing in a very similar way to Leinster. There I said it. People think the tight, attritional style is Ireland's natural game. It shouldn't be. We can do it. But we don't produce forwards as big as the English, French or Italians. In fact our backs are smaller than most international teams too. So why would we play "run over them" rugby, like we tried against Wales in the RWC?

In the compromise rules series with Australia the Irish amateur's know the opposition are physically bigger and stronger and if they can impose their physicality on us we will lose. But last year we thrashed them with speed and skill. Playing to our strengths, not theirs. The Irish rugby team have brilliant back rowers, a clever pacey flyhalf and fast, skillful backs. We should be playing the Leinster game. Aggressive rucking and counter rucking, selectively flooding the breakdown (at the right times), producing quick ball and quick attacks. Creating space and running into it. Scoring tries.

If we play at a high tempo and make space for the likes of Murray, Sexton, Earls, Trimble, Bowe, Kearney, Fitzgerald, we will score tries. If the opposition manage to stop us doing that, then we can try the "run through them" game. Or we can get ROG to play the territory game. But our primary goal should be to subject the opposition to what Leinster subject teams to. I say Leinster, but Munster and Ulster can play this way too. So it shouldn't be a problem. But it seems to be under Kidney. We did it to Wales in 2010 and England in 2011, but that's it really. And our effort against Wales in the RWC was really pathetic.

by **rodders** Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:44 pm

The difference between Ireland and Leinster is that Ireland try and play rugby on the backfoot often spinning the ball wide of 1st and second phase. We alternate between playing a territorial game and an expansive game but the players don't seem to know which to play and when.

The amount of times we spin the ball wide in our own half and get isolated and then kick the ball away in the opositions half is unbelievable.

Leinster play everything on the front foot, they'll just keep cuttiing back against the angle, sucking in the defence until something is on. Everything is patient and precise, there's no forced passes and most important of all its all done off the back of quick ruck ball.

There's no one looking around wondering what to do with the ball or kicking the ball away because they've run out of ideas.

by ME-109 Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:56 pm

What exactly is Leinsters style...why do you think leinster have been so successful over the last few years feckless. Don't you remember the brilliant backplay in 06 and further back.

The answer is the forwards, leinster have a pack now that can get down and dirty and are destructive, ball carrying and able to subdue the opposition in an attritional game...look at the Montpelier game home and away. Exactly like the game plan we had against Wales with a very leinsteresque set of forwards. Because we got no go forward ball from the forwards due to the welsh not playing ball we had no plan b ( or at least no nacewa or Dougie to get us out).

Too simple an argument. Intl and HC are two different animals. The provinces do well due to the concentration of players but we still don't have the player base of England or France and that is always going to be an issue. Should we be doing better yes I think so. Is there a simple answer I don't think so

by Feckless Rogue Sat Jan 28, 2012 5:05 pm

But Ireland have a pack that can get down dirty and destructive. I'd accept your argument if you were just talking about Ireland v France. Their pack is awesome and w're not gonna blow them away unless they have an off day.

But if Leinster dominate the packs of Clermont and Toulouse. Munster can destroy Northampton and Ulster can thrash Leicester, then the same players should be able to at least get a good bit of front foot ball against Scotland, England, Italy and Wales. And we should hope to go toe to toe with France for 80 minutes too, like Ulster did in Clermont.

by valjester Sat Jan 28, 2012 11:06 pm

roddersm wrote:
red_stag wrote:Fly,

He is a top coach dont misquote me. My point is merely that he has done no more than Cheika or Kidney before him but is credited much higher than either of them.

It's not what you do Stag it's the way that you do it. The brand of rugby that Schmidt has Leinster playing is the most effective way to play the game in the current era.

What's even more impressive is that no matter who comes into the side the style and gameplan doesn't change, everyone knows the system and what their role is. Thats amazing and its down to the coach and whats going on behind the scenes.

It's the simple things that Leinster are doing far better than anyone else: The ball presentation and ruck clear outs...two men in boom...quick ball.

Notice they never wait for the scrum half, 1st man there acts as scrum half, be it Jennings, Cullen, even the 'rookies' like O'Malley, so unlike other teams the tempo never drops unless they want it to. Its like poetry in motion it really is. So simple but other sides aren't doing these things as effectively.

And then the pack can front up to..20 minutes solid Leinster defended their line against a huge Montpellier pack, holding them up 3 times over the line. Ball goes up the other end and Healy drives over and scores 1st time. Incredible.

I think its awesome that an Irish side can play like this. They aren't unbeatable but the only side comparable in World rugby right now are the All Blacks in my opinion.

I think what Stag may be trying to say is that what Schmidt has achieved would not have been possible as quickly if it weren't for the work done by those who went before him. Under Schmidt, Leinster play fantastic rugby but what is so impressive about them is their mental toughness and the fact that they always believe that they are going to will. The person responsible for this attitude is Cheika and he should be given a lot of credit for it. The standard of rugby under Cheika was much lower and more defensive but Leinster needed that at time to build up their mental fortitude.

Schmit is a fantastic coach but I'm not sure if he would have been able to build the mental attitude. He is excellent at building attacking teams as his time at Clermont should show us. I know he was only the attacking coach/assistant manager there but he had a huge influence on the team and coaching under Cotter. But it took them along time to make Clermont believe in themselves when they needed to. Although they eventually won the top14, they still don't really have the mental fortitude that teams like Leinster do. Tigers, Toulouse and Munster are other teams who have the mental toughness and for the past few years none of those three teams have been at their best for the last few years yet still win titles and win matches, they shouldn't be in on paper. For Munster a lot of that mental toughness comes down to the attitude that Kidney instilled in the players who in turn give it to the younger generation.

Feckless; There is a huge difference between the being able to push around a club team and an international team. The French pack is going to be immense, they will more than likely be the lightest pack but they will be the best technically and their scrum is probably the strongest in the world. Ireland will be able to compete and would hope to be at least even with the other teams but we won't be able to dominate in the way Leinster do. The Leinster pack is half the Irish pack, other clubs don;t have that luxury, its the same reason Munster used to bully packs around the field when they have half the national team's pack.

Sometimes I get the feeling that some fans are hoping the national team fail so they can have a go at each other. Can we at least give Kidney and the player a few games before we start casting more doubts over them. Last year's Six Nations was disappointing and the RWC was let down after the incredible high of beating Australia, who were one of the favourites for the tournament. Kidney has made mistakes but has also got an awful lot right. If we go poorly in this years Six Nations he probably will go but at least give him a chance before writing his obituary.

edit:Just after seeing this has died off a bit, probably should have let it finish.

by SecretFly Sun Jan 29, 2012 2:32 am

DOD wrote:Jumpers for goalposts Fly...your favourite sketch I would say.
Don't be so condescending about people who mention Irish coaches. Why not look at young coaches like O'Shea and Bradley
Look at the type of rugby their teams aspire to play, open, fast and attack oriented. But clearly you are from the brigade where foreign must be better...and worse they must be SH. Yet with your rush to get someone from their everyone including yourself is that kidneys team is all SH. Including the recently left backs coach who two years or so ago could do no wrong for leinster.

You probably would have cheered for Brian Ashton when he took over Ireland, and we all know what happened then.

Is Brian Ashton an Aussie or a New Zealander? Didn't realise he came from down under, mite.

Meanwhile DOD, your favourite sketch is chasing me down and giving me the old washingmachine spin. Ah well, I'll be a clean trophy head above your mantlepiece when you eventually catch me in one of your spiked pits. Won't be for a while though - I'm nimble enough still.

So we have Bradley cheerleaders, O'Shea cheerleaders. We'll have Ruddock cheerleaders and we might even have Elwood cheerleaders when the time gets to replacing Kidney. Grand. Some of us might still be Schmidt cheerleaders at that point. You'll forgive us our lack of 'patriotism' and acknowledge we might have our legitimate rugby reasons for wanting him.

On the 'condecending' point - nothing condecending about making a judgement based on observations. I do it all the time, and I'll be repeating the offence well into the future. You champion your opinions and I'll chaperone mine.

And sure while I'm at the lauding of SH coaches over the pure souls of good Irish folk, I might even add another one. Indeed I will officially add another SH coach to the Potential Future Irish coach list - Tony McGahan. Now that I think of it, its quite pointed that I never hear him get a mention????... does an anti-SH bias even extend to a loyal servant of Munster? My, my, our principles are indeed pure down there.

by Glas a du Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:22 am

Forgive me if I repeat what may have been said already, but I failed to wade through more than a half a page of comments. Deccie is a good man with a good plan, just not the right one for Ireland now. It didn't take much at the WC for Wales to spoil that plan and there was no response apart from Mr K looking very worried in his box. I also think the wilful refusal to go for the posts early on displayed an arrogance which does not sit well with the Irish desire to be the underdogs with a grievance. Either BOD was calling the shots on the field or Deccie was. If it was BOD that is bad in itself. If it was Deccie he was wrong and most un-Munsterlike.

by **rodders** Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:27 am

Glas a du wrote:If it was BOD that is bad in itself. If it was Deccie he was wrong and most un-Munsterlike.

It was clearly a joint descision between BOD, ROG and POC and it was the wrong one. Not sure I would call it un-Munster like as Munster often go for the lineout to if they feel they can score of the driving maul from the lineout.

I think it was a decision rooted in panic rather than arrogance. Wales had hit Ireland with the early try and our game plan and composure went out the window.

by **Ozzy3213** Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:30 am

Just seemed strange to select ROG over Sexton as the latter had kicking issues and the former was the safe option, and then turn down easy 3 pointers looking to try for 7.

Ireland will need more clarity of thinking if they are to progress to the next level.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Glas a du wrote: underdogs with a grievance.

Learning English vernacular about the Irish, Glas? When it comes to Wales, thanks but we won't be accepting the 'underdog' tag for a while - win or even lose on Sunday. In truth, we won't take that title from any of our competitors in Europe. SH, yeah, they can use it justly about us.
And nope, neither would we have had a grievance about Wales going into the match. We were as confident as Wales were, and at that point at the beginning of the game, having more real cause to be so. (4 from 4 and one of them being Australia.) So Welsh players play better when strutting and confident and taking their chances, and playing positively, and not being conservative; but the Irish in not choosing the posts just showed themselves to be 'arrogant'?

Pretty arrogant comment actually. Didn't expect it of you, Glas.

by Feckless Rogue Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:56 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Just seemed strange to select ROG over Sexton as the latter had kicking issues and the former was the safe option, and then turn down easy 3 pointers looking to try for 7.

That baffled me too. If ROG has been selected for his goal kicking, why is he turning down all kicks at goal? I actually think it was ROG's decision to turn down the kicks. They were all tricky and it was windy. I don't think he fancied it.

by Glas a du Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:14 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Glas a du wrote: underdogs with a grievance.

Learning English vernacular about the Irish, Glas? When it comes to Wales, thanks but we won't be accepting the 'underdog' tag for a while - win or even lose on Sunday. In truth, we won't take that title from any of our competitors in Europe. SH, yeah, they can use it justly about us.
And nope, neither would we have had a grievance about Wales going into the match. We were as confident as Wales were, and at that point at the beginning of the game, having more real cause to be so. (4 from 4 and one of them being Australia.) So Welsh players play better when strutting and confident and taking their chances, and playing positively, and not being conservative; but the Irish in not choosing the posts just showed themselves to be 'arrogant'?

Pretty arrogant comment actually. Didn't expect it of you, Glas.

On second reading it does look a bit strong Rolling Eyes

However, what I was alluding at is that going to the corner was not seen as much of a gamble as it should have been for Ireland and that they were genuinely stunned when Wales managed to keep their line intact. It seemed over confident in the circumstances and was the mistake (repeated of course) that cost the match in my view.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:54 pm

I agree in hindsight that they were the turning points...one side lost confidence..the other side got a huge boost.

Agree with that - in hindsight. But nope, I'm a much more aggressive sort in real life (rugby preference wise!!!) and there have been countless times when I've shouted at the team to use the impetus they have in a positive way and instead of going for the points, go for the corner if you believe in your own potential - as if it works it can be soul destroying on the opposition.

But again, like you say, if it doesn't it can have the opposite effect.

I still think it was the right attitude to bring to a very confident Welsh side. Each side was going to try to intimidate the other with their version of the game. If it had come off, we might have had a different result. It was a gamble and sometimes they don't come off. I can still see myself shouting at the team this year to go for the corner though if it seems like an opportunity.

by **Ozzy3213** Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:43 pm

Any answers today to the question?

I've not seen the game yet, but surely given the form of the Irish provinces as opposed to the Welsh regions, that was a game that all Ireland fans had expected their team to win?

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 05, 2012 8:57 pm

I think Kidney should avoid a few of the posters on here tbh Ozzy! I think he really must go now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/16898849

This also annoys me, what he has to say. Ireland should have killed off Wales. Makes me think he wants us to play that type of slow game where we get ahead and then just kill the game until full-time, and that is what we should have done. No Kidney, you should let us keep possession, stop kicking for territory and run the ball, play the type of game these irish boys were born to play.

by gowales Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:02 pm

But didn't Kidney try an expansive game for the last few years or so with little success. And then when you reverted to a conservative game plan against England and Australia you won.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:07 pm

Eh, I can't remember Kidney ever coaching a team to play an expansive game of rugby in his life. We win the off game with that primitive way of playing, and though the Australia win was brilliant, I almost wish it hadn't been as Kidney now seems to think he can do this with every team we play. We clearly can't expect to threaten the opposition if we do this. Our team is made to score tries, and they do this consistently at the provinces. For Ireland, all the attacking instincts seem to be coached out of them, and we kick for territory every phase.

by gowales Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:11 pm

I think a conservative game could work. You have the forwards for it. Maybe you just need a couple of monsters in the centres and you could play a South African style.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:16 pm

Why? We (potentially) have some of the most talented running backs in the world, and I genuinely believe that. You only have to watch the likes of Leinster play week in week out. Why would we restrict ourselves to that sort of game? We have forwards who also want to play attacking rugby, Ferris, SOB and Heaslip were looking for support and offloading every opportunity they can.

by gowales Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:19 pm

With your dominant forwards perhaps with a more direct running game they would complement each other. I just think your backs spread the ball but they don't really go any where most of the time. Sometimes they need to straighten up a bit

by Rory_Gallagher Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:24 pm

That comes down to consistently trying to play a ROG type of game and kick for territory, giving possession straight back, and our exceptionally weak centres, who are lacking big time in terms of creativity. You give the likes of Trimble, Bowe, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Earls etc space to run, they will tear the opposition to shreds. Right now what we are doing is very static and lacking in cohesion. There are glimpses of it and the times we do run the ball well and inject some pace it usually results in points.

by Feckless Rogue Sun Feb 05, 2012 9:29 pm

gowales wrote:I think a conservative game could work. You have the forwards for it. Maybe you just need a couple of monsters in the centres and you could play a South African style.

This is actually true. We could select Murray and ROG and play a conservative style. Or we could select Reddan and Sexton and play the Leinster way. But we're doing neither effectively most of the time. Kidney is chopping and changing the half backs all the time and we're playing an ineffective half-way style between Munster and Leinster.

And by the way, we didn't play conservatively against England last year. We dominated the breakdown, started Reddan and Sexton and played at a very high tempo counterattacking game.

by SecretFly Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:10 pm

Kidney is..................................................

well, a few more games short of a golden handshake. Losing happens - and in my opinion, by far the best side won yesterday; so losing happens. Sometimes you just aren't the best, and suggesting you should have been requires you showing a touch disrespect to the side that has just beaten you.

So no disrespect to Wale's achievement, losing happens but it's never tolerated for long. Kidney has pretty much used up all of his 'get-out-of-jail cards. The next three or four games will decide his fate.

by SecretFly Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:11 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That comes down to consistently trying to play a ROG type of game and kick for territory, giving possession straight back, and our exceptionally weak centres, who are lacking big time in terms of creativity. You give the likes of Trimble, Bowe, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Earls etc space to run, they will tear the opposition to shreds. Right now what we are doing is very static and lacking in cohesion. There are glimpses of it and the times we do run the ball well and inject some pace it usually results in points.

+1...

by gnollbeast Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:14 pm

Ireland is all Eddie O'Sullivan's making. That is all.

by SecretFly Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:15 pm

gnollbeast wrote:Ireland is all Eddie O'Sullivan's making. That is all.

No...that is not all. Explanation please......we don't do maxims here Wink

by gowales Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:20 pm

You could say that Ireland are all Gatland's making in that case. What is your point exactly?

by Sin é Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:23 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:That comes down to consistently trying to play a ROG type of game and kick for territory, giving possession straight back, and our exceptionally weak centres, who are lacking big time in terms of creativity. You give the likes of Trimble, Bowe, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Earls etc space to run, they will tear the opposition to shreds. Right now what we are doing is very static and lacking in cohesion. There are glimpses of it and the times we do run the ball well and inject some pace it usually results in points.

Thats Sexton's fault though who is meant to be the game manager. Two good tries were scored yesterday. If Kidney coached them to kick the corners (badly) he coached them to to score good tries.

Problem I think is that the players are not able to play heads up rugby. Kearney tried it a bit yesterday, but he was the only creative back (though I have a certain sympathy for the midfielders because they had an awful lot of defensive work to put in).

by SecretFly Mon Feb 06, 2012 12:42 pm

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:That comes down to consistently trying to play a ROG type of game and kick for territory, giving possession straight back, and our exceptionally weak centres, who are lacking big time in terms of creativity. You give the likes of Trimble, Bowe, Kearney, Fitzgerald, Earls etc space to run, they will tear the opposition to shreds. Right now what we are doing is very static and lacking in cohesion. There are glimpses of it and the times we do run the ball well and inject some pace it usually results in points.

Thats Sexton's fault though who is meant to be the game manager. Two good tries were scored yesterday. If Kidney coached them to kick the corners (badly) he coached them to to score good tries.

Problem I think is that the players are not able to play heads up rugby. Kearney tried it a bit yesterday, but he was the only creative back (though I have a certain sympathy for the midfielders because they had an awful lot of defensive work to put in).

Why Sin? Why? You think Munster don't play heads-up rugby? You think Ulster or Leinster don't play it? Why can they not play heads up rugby? What's wrong? Player ability? Is that what's wrong? Team selection? Is that wrong?

You can't just keep questioning the ability of every player who puts on an Irish shirt. They play these same Welsh players week in and week out - and to be euphemistic about it, they hold their own, they compete and do the fast heads-up rugby as good as their Welsh rivals then. So why again?

Oh it's International - different intensity and ability needed. Oh yeah? So ask that question of the Welsh players again then when playing for their regions? Where's the International intensity then?

No matter how you word it - we have the players to compete with Welsh players. Right now, indisputably, they have a better team. They are on a different plain right now as a team. So again....where does the buck stop? Honestly? Where does it stop?

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