Ashton Can he do it again?

First topic message reminder :

Top try scorer in the 2011 6 Nations, joint top try scorer in the RWC

Can he do it again?

If not Ashton who will get the most?

2011 top 10 try scorers

1 Chris Ashton England 6
2 Brian O'Driscoll Ireland 3
3 Lionel Nallet France 2
4 Shane Williams Wales 2
5 James Heaslip Ireland 2
6 Andrea Masi Italy 2
7 Morgan Stoddart Wales 2
8 Vincent Clerc France 2
9 Maxime Medard France 2
10 Sam Warburton Wales 1

Keith Earls

viewtothegym wrote:You don't report the citing commissioner watches over a game and takes note for matters that may need looking at again,
But Tigers did try and sue the Ospreys and stuck their nose right in with the Lee Byrne 16th man incident,
even thou the citing panel were trying to sort it out.

Slightly biased rewrite of the history there from the ever bitter view. Its not the old 606, you can stop being such a bore now

Who has rattled your funny bone lad?

Ashton is a good international winger, and a very deadly finisher when he's on form, he runs great support angles and knows when to cut back off his midfield. His defence isn't great, but its not as bad as some make out. However, to say he's the best winger in the world, even one of, is a bit premature. I'd point to Corey Jane, Clerc, Bowe, O'Connor, Ioane, Hosea Gear and argue they're all as deadly as ashton is when on form, but offer more in their all round game.

I'm more worried about Foden when Wales are playing England, now theres someone you can look at and say yeah, he's one of the best in the world in his position at the moment.

miteyironpaw wrote:Top try scorer last year, top try scorer at the RWC. England clearly have the most lethal back division in world rugby. We also have historically tended to monster all comers in the technical and physical arena of the set piece.

The only missing link right now between England and restoring the rightful world order of 2003 is tweaking the balance of the back row and finding a replacement for the kicking accuracy of the greatest player of all time: Jonny Wilkinson (if such a man will ever exist).

Im thinking Ashton won't be the top try scorer and in light of England results maybe stating they have the most lethal back division before this 6n's started looks as laughable to the poster now as it did to a lot of others then. I seriously can't see how England are going to create any tries other than charge downs or maybe if the opposition goes down by a few men by yellow cards.

So far 2 tries (both charge down) for the entire team. Even Scotland and Italy are doing better, some players are going to score more than the entire England team so Im still going for a French back three over Ashton.


Who is the present top try scorer this year antway

He could do it again if he gets hold of the ball that is. At the moment he does not seem toget any where near the ball. But every body as their off days, loses form at some time.

With regards to him being the best in the world, who ever said that must surely be having a laugh. He could be the best in the world, one day, maybe. But just now. No he is not.

overlordofthewest wrote:
Who is the present top try scorer this year antway (sic)

Steven Shingler.

Its arguably the biggest failing of this current England side, they are getting nothing from Ashton at all.

Tommy Bowe's on 3 after 2 games....... seems to be easing back into form so I'd back him to get a few more.....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Its arguably the biggest failing of this current England side, they are getting nothing from Ashton at all.

Can you work out why not though? He clearly has skill and speed, but shown nothing this tournament? What can be done to improve his game?
I don't know why he seems to go missing - he used to turn up on the attackers shoulder and hit some great angles, but he's nowhere.

Ashton is totally out of sorts, surprised he's being selected to be honest. He and Foden, who also is off form, are not linking well and he's missing his buddy Flood to run off.

England must have better wingers they can select? What about your man that scored that cracker for Gloucester at the Weekend( May?)?

roddersm wrote:Ashton is totally out of sorts, surprised he's being selected to be honest. He and Foden, who also is off form, are not linking well and he's missing his buddy Flood to run off.

Then we need to play Flood, put Brown at Fullback and I'd like to see Sharples over Strettle. Foden on the bench would be good cover.
Or drop Ashton until he gets form back, continue with the Farrell experiment?

No way would I drop Farrell, hes arguably been Englands best player. Can't understand the criticism of him?

If Jonny Wilkinson had of put in the performances Farrell did, the media and fans would be saying he was back to his best.

I thought he played well, but if by losing him we get Ashton back scoring tries it's a good swap.

Wrt Ashton, I thought what Scotland did on the weekend was very interesting. The backline was aligned so deep it was giving the guys loads of time to run onto the ball, and flank the rush defense of France.

Time and time again the commentators started to bemoan "OH! But the Scottish backs are SOOOO deep", then invariably they'd bust the line, flank the umbrella or put a man into space through a dog-leg in the line or mismatch a back to a forward and in some way or other crossed the gain line.

Contrast that to England, the line was flat and invariably the only option was a risky loopy pass over the rushing defensive line, a kick through or over the line or to off-load to a ball carrying forward. Since we no longer seem to have ball carrying forwards we ended up getting schtupped, slow ball and repeat.

I realise there are teams with players who can play flat against a rush defense and still have time on the ball to make good decisions, but the reality is that we don't have the skills to execute that clearly. Perhaps we need to take a leaf from Scotland and ex-England coach AR and give our guys a bit more time on the ball.

Just a thought.

Well they didnt get the ball to the back 3 at all for the first two games. England didnt have a greta deal of good field position and Farrell at 12 was very conservative.

For this game I wouldve expected to have seen him doing what he did last year under Johnson/Smith, coming in and exploiting the holes made by Barrit and Tuilagi. Fair enough those guys arent going to pass too often, they were specificaly tasked with running at the opposition.
Why isnt that happening? Playing on the wrong wing? Coaching? Lack of confidence from him? The midfield kicking away posession or taking it into contact rather than passing out wide? Maybe sides have gotten better and covering him too, but he didnt even look like he was coming looking for the ball and then on the few occassions he did get the ball he looked off his game and frustrated.
The frustartion though is something any winger whos getting so few opportunities will suffer from, Im not sure dropping him is the asnwer. Id like to see the coaches concentrate on getting him back in the game and doing what worked for him previously. Untilamtly hes one of Englands few genuinley class players, if you cant utilise him you are failing. Even when Englands pack was getting bullied at times last year he was still offering something in most games, now he may as well be a fishcake for all the use he is. To be fair there had been signs of this through the world cup warm ups and world cup itself too. But hes not even making breaks now, let alone scoring. Its a big problem, especially as Strettle isnt offering a great deal of invention from his wing.


I dont see anyway that Farrell is going to get dropped right now. I do feel Flood is more the complete player at this time but Farrell is doing what is asked of him and kicking the points ( something Flood and Wilko both struggled with recently). If Flood were at his best then there would be more of an argument, but now Farrell has proved he has the nerve and can step it up on the big stage and cope with a massively inexperienced group of players around him he should be retained for the time being. He was lucky to get his chance, hes taken it. He needs to get better, but that doenst mean he should be ditched....and frankly the media would go into meltdown if he were.
At its best Youngs Flood was far superior to what Dickson Farrell is ritght now...but that doesnt mean we should go back to that whilst Youngs in particular is off his game. Again the England coaches need to find what will make him click again though, not just cast him aside and assainate his reputation pandering to a media fuelled perception that everything from the world cup is evil and wrong ( which is what a good chunk of the internet seems to want).

Stick with the side as it is for the next game at least. Id be very surpissed if it changed. There are a few wingers around the country who could step in for the summer tour, but theres enough to work on with the current crop of players without brining in yet more new faces at this point. It wont make the coaches job any easier to chop and change the personel wholesale.

Ashtons going through a dry spell that happens to the best of them, I'm more concerned that his all round play has dropped off I can't remember him doing anything on Saturday, and it is for that reason Sharples deserves a shot.

Also whilst I'm here Ben Youngs can't pass we have to give someone else a go, I know Danny Care has done wrong but maybe he should be drafted in on the bench.

HERSH - it has been three starts for Ashton and the one trick pony has yet to touchdown (like all but one of the England team! ).

Now here is a question for you. Is Scott Williams strike rate of 5 tries in 10 tests now better than Chris Ashtons strike rate?

Ashton’s going through a dry spell and like all dry spells they come to an end, I expect him to get his juices flowing again in Paris.

Very doubtful. But my question was is Scott Williams' strike rate now better? I am unsure of it myself, maybe I just lack the urgency to do the math. I absolutely hate algabraic formula's and numerical reasoning. I thought a guy as smart as you HERSH would know.

Per minute on the pitch Williams is surely better.
But he his tries have come against weak sides, like England

Majority of Ashtons have been against weak sides, 4 of them haven't as far as I am aware. Aus and of course, Wales;). But apparently that didn't matter.

So my next question is why are Welsh fans and the media not raving about Scott? He must be defining centre midfield play in some way or another.

Williams showed his best and worst attributes against England...

He worked Tuilagi well for the first break, showed him the crash then took the ball wide, lovely vision but didn't have the maturity to make the simple pass for the try. Secondly he received a ball with no support and again, maybe a little lack of maturity put boot to ball with 4 mins left in oppositon territory at 12 all, but hey thank god he did, and got the bounce of the ball to score. Any other player I am convinced would play the percentage game, take contact and wait for an infringement for a shot at goal.

It was a bit of a joke Morg

Why arent they arving about Scott? Because they werent raving about Ashton purely on the basis he had scored some tries. The world was pooing istelf over George North recently, why isnt he getting the level of bitterness and abuse Ashton did from the Wales fans?
Ashton was playing in a way and doing things that were fundamentaly differnt to the way Rugby Union wingers usuually operate, and he was part of a side that were generating a genuine buzz about the way they were playing. Yes some of the coverage was OTT but that doesnt mean it was wrong to admire him.
Scott Williams is just one face in the crowd of exciting Welsh backs, he hasnt scored enough tries or done anything so spectacular that the world feels the need to go crazy over him yet.

Banahan has a good strike rate too.

Sums up this argument really!

Sums up England backs you mean.

Banahan ia another player whos had the confidence knocked out of him by MJ's England set up.

A confident Banahan on the wing is a great sight.

Not if your Shane Williams!!

Unless you have the ball in hand then it's try time!

Isn't bringing up Banahan the equivilent of calling someone a Nazi in a discussion ?

HERSH wrote:Banahan ia another player whos had the confidence knocked out of him by MJ's England set up.

A confident Banahan on the wing is a great sight.

Well in MJ ruined him Lancasters gone one better destroying Ashton.

HERSH wrote: A confident Banahan on the wing is a great sight.

Steady on HERSH, it's a family show.

England look like they're playing with fear all the time, Wales on the other hand look like they enjoy their rugby.

For gods sake guys go and play, have some fun on the pitch for once!
Trust your defensive skills and back yourselves in attack.

SafeAsMilk wrote:Didn't Shane score over half of his tries against Japan and Canada in specially-arranged tests by the WRU?

Har Har. Straight to video. You could probably get arrested in Wales for saying that. As it happens, and more pertinent to this thread, Ashton was joint top scorer with Vincent Clerc, and he did score half of his 6 tries against a minnow, Romania in the group stage. Our latest Welsh hero, Scott Williams also scored 3 against Namibia

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!

England can't even score a normal try let alone Ashton! He isn't like Shane Williams popping up from anywhere or looking for work.

Ashton can score easy tries against poor opposition.

That is true. North may only have one try from two and a quarter games but he is still an effective player. As is Cuthbert. Ashton, is not. He was labelled a one trick pony and rightly so, all he can do is finish. Any player can do that.

Ashton needs to learn a few things about wing play from Strettle. And, England need to use their backline the way Saracens have been using their's in Europe.

HERSH wrote:Wales on the other hand look like they enjoy their rugby.

It took quite a time for wales to begin enjoying their rugby again. People seem to forget the cloud of gloom under which Gatland operated for a large chunk of his reign.

Fly

You mean after the GS?! Cos all I remember is, Gatland appointed, Wales win GS, should've won WC, then another GS...

bluesman, itll do us all a favour to not forget the Cooper/Thomas years under Gatland....

...especially Gatland!

Ashton doesnt deserve to be starting for England right now, hes an excellant player to have when you're playing on the front foot and creating half-breaks/breaks. When you need someone to come looking for the ball and create or put others in space, hes not your man. Strettles out-performed him and he should be dropped for Sharples in the next match.

His scoring record is very impressive though. You could say, 'well if you take out his 3 against italy or romania' blah blah blah, but why the feck would you? Did England not have to play and beat those teams in competitive test matches?

He's a hair-puller though

SHane scored past all the tri nation teams and got a fair few past Argentina.

Didn't the worldclass Jason Robinson score past all the tri nation teams?
NO! not even playing behind such a fearsome pack.

So if we talk try scorers only, isn't that asian guy better than everyone else (forgot his name)

I hate it when people even mentions Ashtons and Shanes name in the same breath, Shane single handedly dragged us to within the jaws of victory from the best in the world time and time again, most of the time with a very average team around him, on home soil or away!

Shane was a legend, so far Ashtons been a one try wonder.

SecretFly wrote:

HERSH wrote:Wales on the other hand look like they enjoy their rugby.

It took quite a time for wales to begin enjoying their rugby again. People seem to forget the cloud of gloom under which Gatland operated for a large chunk of his reign.

We certainly don't forget the fourth place finishes under Gatland. It did take a while. Maybe he had a long term plan. Maybe he was an average coach and it took a lot of misplaced idea's to finally get the right ones.

We can easily descend back to those poor performances next season, but I would hope not, and I actually think that won't happen with these guys. The world cup was our best for years and we seem to be carrying on the good form. The mindset is unlike anything I have seen in over a decade of watching Wales play rugby.

Morgannwg

May I just remind you that those 4th place finishes weren't as bad as you remember, come final round we were capable of winning the tourny every time.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

You mean after the GS?! Cos all I remember is, Gatland appointed, Wales win GS, should've won WC, then another GS...

You have a selective short term memory there, bluesman.

On purpose too fly, infact my oldest memory is from 2005...

Not in 2010 bluesman.... The other years though, performances were just inconsistent. Average players were picked ahead of Warbs, Danny, etc, attack and defence fluctuated. Now both are good and our form players seem to be getting selected.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

You mean after the GS?! Cos all I remember is, Gatland appointed, Wales win GS, should've won WC, then another GS...

You know, bluesman, yeah. I was so proud of the boys in NZ, everything they did was magnificent it was the final everyone wanted. We took it as far as we could within a kick or a DG but desperately unlucky. One can only daydream about that, but that takes nothing away from Wales success