Ashton Can he do it again?

First topic message reminder :

Top try scorer in the 2011 6 Nations, joint top try scorer in the RWC

Can he do it again?

If not Ashton who will get the most?

2011 top 10 try scorers

1 Chris Ashton England 6
2 Brian O'Driscoll Ireland 3
3 Lionel Nallet France 2
4 Shane Williams Wales 2
5 James Heaslip Ireland 2
6 Andrea Masi Italy 2
7 Morgan Stoddart Wales 2
8 Vincent Clerc France 2
9 Maxime Medard France 2
10 Sam Warburton Wales 1

miteyironpaw wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:First you build him up to be the world´s best winger and now he´s not the finished article. Which is it to be miteyironpaw.

I think it´s a dangerous road to go down saying a player is the world´s best. How do you separate Juan Smith, Thierry Dusatoir and Jerome Kaino for example. I just think you should be grateful if any one of those is in your team.

I don't have a problem with people saying Ashton can be the leading try scorer again. He knows his way to the try line. But he still has a lot to learn and like you say that could well make him very formidable. Let´s not go overboard with the hype and just see what he does. At the moment, Ashton is in danger of having the same amount of hype as Croft did. I don´t think we've seen the best of Croft yet by any stretch and we haven't seen the best of Ashton. But when he's at his best, he looks very good. Just be content with that and leave him to build his own legacy.

Kiakaaahorata - purely on the basis of his try scoring record. You want a winger to finish well, he does. At the moment, that makes him the best in the world. I know that statistics and rankings can be subjective and are easily skewed. But NZ dine out on their #1 ranking regularly without considering the advantage they have in regularly playing to top 2 other sides and hence increased ability to regain any lost points/places.

When NZ, SA or Australia have a stand out player, for example Carter, Genia, Matfield we have no problem in praising them. It seems the primary objection to Ashton is that he's English, and the feeling is that English backs have to be rubbish. Now I'm not saying there's nothing more to wing play than scoring tries, any more than I'd say all there is to being a hooker is scrummaging well and throwing straight to the line out; but we have to have some basis for comparison and at the end of the day you don't keep a winger who can't finish moves well. We all celebrated Jonah when he was scoring tries and overlooking his defensive frailties and lack of a kicking game. I put Ashton in the same category. He has an X factor and always seems to pop up the right place. Just because he's the best, doesn't mean he can't get better; any more than Carter or McCaw can't get better, or Genia and Beale can't get better despite being the best in the world in their spots.

I think it´s simplistic to say NZ only have the number 1 ranking because we feed off SA and Australia who also have high ranking points. It´s been some time since we were defeated in the NH. Our rankings are a reflection of us not losing many games, regardless of who the opposition is.

No one on here is bagging Ashton. I just think world´s best is premature. Ioane is a new player also but I consider him for one to be more dangerous than Ashton. Every time he gets the ball I get scared. He always seems to go forward with the ball in hand. I agree strike rate is important and Ashton has scored a lot. Like I said, no one is bagging him. But so far in the big games, he hasn´t been able to dominate. That´s not just his problem but an indication that England has been unable to impose themselves on stronger opposition.

I think most neutrals are happy to see England regain some attacking clout with players like Ashton, Tualigi and Foden. But let´s not get carried away in praise for Ashton is all I'm saying when he's still learning the game and getting international experience.

No one seems to be answering the question I posed earlier in this thread. Who the heck said he the best winger in the world? His stats say he has a great scoring record, one of the best playing now. And he is indeed very good.

But, please ladies and gentlemen. This sounds like we are harking back to schoolyard arguements when we were 10 years old.

Besides, everyone's criteria for best is personal. I never get into who is best because it is an arguement no no one can win. Is Ashton amongst the best in the world at the moment? Sure. Does he need to do it longer in his career? Sure. Are there other very good wingers now? Of-freakin-course.

And for the last thing, the alleged arrogance. Ioane does a complete scoring dance he plans before matches. Arrogant? Oh, no. No one comments on that. All Ashton does is a stupid swan dive, for mother's sake. And as I have said before, how can anyone be arrogant driving a Ford Mondeo? To me this all reads like some weird emotional dislike for this bloke, and I don't get it. Is it because he takes pasty white to new levels? Or because he played league and no one wants a convert to be this good? Or because he plays for Saints? Or England?
Or because he pulls the wings off little flies? Then eats them.
Crickey.

Doc, miteyironpaw is claiming he´s the best. Like I said, that´s a dangerous game to say who is the best. Especially for such a relatively inexperienced player at test level.

Ioane looks like a Holly Wilaboobie when he´s dancing and many people have commented on that, don´t worry about that. But both he and Ashton are young and are enjoying their footy so if they keep playing well then they can do a pole dance for all I care after scoring a try.

Doc the fans have spoken, Ashton might not be the best winger in the world, but he is one of the best finishers.

The Stats don't lie

F A C T.

No arguments from me on that HERSH.

Mornin' Kia,
The comments about Ashton being best precede miteyironpaw's comments and have shown up over and over. I think miteyironpaw was trying to statistically make an argument he is the best finisher. And his numbers ain't bad. But we all know about statistics, and to me, the most fungible thing in the world is an individual number or stat. I really like Disraeli’s expression about statistics. "Lies, damn lies and statistics."

I just don't get the totally out of perspective emotional response to this guy (Ashton, not miteyironpaw). He is a very good winger. Terrific finisher (winger's main job), attacks rucks well, OK tackler (like most poncy wingers). I just don't get it. And not one can tell me where it comes from, except that freakin dive. And I really don't think it is a big deal.

I have never seen anyone comment about Ioane's antics, mate. The Aussie media love it. Maybe the world is changing (as it inevitably does) and I am just a bit behind.

I still want to run the RFU.

If you go back, the comments stem from we are looking at the world´s best winger now, and people don´t want to admit that because he´s English comment.

No one is disputing his finishing qualities and I think it´s great England have such a talented winger. I just think the world´s best winger and number 2 in the world comments (on another thread) are misguided. Not having a go at the guy as I genuinely admire his faith in England. Just don´t think they´re quite there yet and have a lot of unknowns with injuries and new caps plus a new manager going into this 6N.

Believe me, if you followed a few Super threads, you´d have seen plenty of comments on Ioane. I admit though that Ashton does receive more attention with his swan dives and his hair pulling antics didn't do him any favours. But there´s no doubt he is an attacking threat and England are lucky to have him. What´s wrong with leaving it at that is all I'm saying without putting any more pressure on him?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:If you go back, the comments stem from we are looking at the world´s best winger now, and people don´t want to admit that because he´s English comment.

No one is disputing his finishing qualities and I think it´s great England have such a talented winger. I just think the world´s best winger and number 2 in the world comments (on another thread) are misguided..........

........But there´s no doubt he is an attacking threat and England are lucky to have him. What´s wrong with leaving it at that is all I'm saying without putting any more pressure on him?

Ah, well. Since there is no "best" at any position because it is too subjective, with too many other factors involved, then we can let that bit go, eh?

Still, I think you are mincing your words, just a little bit. He is not just a "finisher". That's almost like saying he is half a player. Finishing is his strong point, though. He is a well rounded wing who puts himself in position to score as well as anyone playing the game today. Not "best". But pretty darned good. As are others.

And, well, England as number two in the world? That's a fair bit of wishful thinking, I have to admit. Maybe more than a fair bit. And, by the way, I don't like ratings either. They are there to drive conversation (like this?) amongst fans and build media attention which the sport needs. Otherwise meaningless in the big picture. I don't really get involved in those conversations either because no one can really win.

Well the title of this thread is can he do it again, i.e. score tries. That´s finishing. Of course there are other attributes to his game. But the point of this thread was saying will be top try scorer again until somebody went further and said he will not only be top scorer but he will prove to be the best. I agree it´s pointless saying who´s best. Bowe, Ioane, North, Ashton are all very good wingers. But it´s the team around them that make them shine and this is where England are let down in the big games at the moment. Your wingers need space and time to make an impact otherwise they have to produce something from nothing, like Shane Williams. Tualigi´s injury is a big blow for England as he was looking to be a very good provider of space and time for Ashton with his incisive running.

Well, fairly said and I can't agree more. I was taken off the point of the OP when the emotional dislike of Ashton came out followed by Ashton as best comment. Both of which are silly. Probably should have let them go.

Frankly, I have no idea whether this England squad will do well or not, and whether the wings will be productive or just run up and down the pitch getting exercise.

If they can break the Murrayfield try hoodoo, it will do them a lot of favours in terms of confidence and set them up mentally strong for the Wales game. Play their usual below par performance up north and the pressure goes on with so much experience left off the park.

As for the Ashton negativity, a lot of that boils down to jealousy. He´s not the only player in world rugby to attract that kind of criticism. Prefer to see it as a compliment.

Sorry yeah I appear to have misread what that chap was saying before.

He has an excellent try scoring record, because hes very good at putting himself in the right position and can run strong fast and hard. His tactical brain for attacking play is clearly a strength for him.

I do think hes suffered a bit since sides have had a good chance to look at how he scored all those early tried for England and work out how he operates. Youd be naive to think that coaches havent looked at that in detail and worked their defence around negating him. He was England primary try scoring threat in their best run of attacking play for some years. I havent seen much of him with saints this season, but from what I understand hes hardly been at his best ( too busy being a dirty hair pulling *****).

Now his (relatively) lean spell for England also coincided with him going through a period of sitting out on the wing looking bored and in some peoples eyes being lazy waiting for the ball to come to him. What Id argue is that that also coincided with England struggling to get much go forward and create the conditions for him to do what he does best, pick up quick second or third phase ball and be on hand to exploit gaps.
All wingers are going to fare better when their sides on top, thats obvious. But Ashton does seem very prone to that.The previous couple of seasons Saints have been very strong at bulldozing through sides with aggressive direct attacking play, the sort of thing Ashton thrived off. Hes not a winger whos likely to run back a long kick dancing through the opposition and score nor does he tend to score a lot of classic winger tries in funky back loops drawing defenders etc then cheeky sidestepping the last man, but he has a great ability to be on hand when theres a gap to finish off attacking drive.
It was often the much maligned Cueto who was responsible for setting up his scores by making the break and beating a few defenders.

Is Ashton a luxury player? Is he a flat track bully? Maybe. But its better than having two wingers who dont score in any situation.
Will he score that many tries again? I doubt it, because England are unlikely to get enough go forward to enable even Chuck Norriss to score more a couple of tries in this tournament. It really doesnt matter how much of an all round talent your winger is, he will struggle to score if his side isnt on top. Ashton does seem more prone to that than other high profile wingers though.
I agree with Kia that Tuilagi will be missed, but one thing in Englands favour is that they are a huge unknown quantity. The way they play and lineup will take a while for sides to get their heads around, so maybe Ashton will get a few chances early on to get the scores racked up exploiting that.

I imagine he'll score against Wales though

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Will he score that many tries again? I doubt it, because England are unlikely to get enough go forward to enable even Chuck Norriss to score more a couple of tries in this tournament. It really doesnt matter how much of an all round talent your winger is, he will struggle to score if his side isnt on top.

Methinks you are right. Mehopes you are wrong.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Ashton does seem more prone to that than other high profile wingers though.

Here I disagree. One thing he does not do is hang on the wing waiting for someone to remember he is there. He regularly comes inside looking for work, trying to find the gaps and move the ball on. He hits the gaps hard, hits them at pace, and that's his strength. I would hazard a guess he has more tries inside than outside. His work rate is usually high.

No team that knows his ability will ignore that ability. They know what he is capable of, even if their fans slight him.

My view of Ashton is that he excels when confident. Natural development, you might say, but for him, more than most. He needs that giddiness to perform whereas other wingers can drift through a game on a lower heartrate, so to speak.

In order for Ashton to be confident he needs involvement (coming inside trying to get his juices flowing if the ball isn't freely coming out to him). If he begins to feel light and sharp doing that, then he becomes very dangerous for the duration of a game. But if things don't come off, if his brain works too fast and he coughs up possession, he can quickly lose that mood and become quite fragile as a player... like a rabbit caught in headlights.

So yes, he's very effective in an effective attacking side but does he himself create that mood and focus or does he thrive when it becomes evident in his side?

SecretFly wrote:In order for Ashton to be confident he needs involvement (coming inside trying to get his juices flowing if the ball isn't freely coming out to him). If he begins to feel light and sharp doing that, then he becomes very dangerous for the duration of a game. But if things don't come off, if his brain works too fast and he coughs up possession, he can quickly lose that mood and become quite fragile as a player... like a rabbit caught in headlights.

So yes, he's very effective in an effective attacking side but does he himself create that mood and focus or does he thrive when it becomes evident in his side?

Whoa, Doctor Freud. Thats a psychological mouthful. Love to know how you came up with that. As a Saints fan I haven't seen that. I have seen times when the defense closes everything down and no one gets through. And times when he is off his game, as happens with every player. But, thats quite deep.

I don't even know why I defend the little bugger. He is leaving Saints to go to the dark side. In a few years will probably be made of metal, wear black and go looking for his son Luke. Almost every response to a comment about him is laced with emotion. Weird.

No. There's a chance that Ashton may not be first choice in his position.

Doctor Grey, I obviously haven't seen him operate as much as you, but then when you witness him more than me it's usually in the AP. When I've seen him it was mainly at International level and against Irish sides in HC competition. I can only see what I see - and at that level I've seen him operate on the levels I've described.

OK. Let's let it drop. I don't think we will agree. Besides, the little blighter is almost a Saracen now, from Saint to Saracen. From out of the light and into the darkness.

But if you get a chance (time with really nothing to do!) take a look at a lot of posts about this bloke. Many are really laced with some weird not-too-nice emotion (fill in your own word). I don't get it. What did he do? besmirch someone's sister? Impregnate someone's dog? or just a stupid dive. And for that people call him everything from arrogant to arse(hole). Feckin A, this is just weird.

doctor_grey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:In order for Ashton to be confident he needs involvement (coming inside trying to get his juices flowing if the ball isn't freely coming out to him). If he begins to feel light and sharp doing that, then he becomes very dangerous for the duration of a game. But if things don't come off, if his brain works too fast and he coughs up possession, he can quickly lose that mood and become quite fragile as a player... like a rabbit caught in headlights.

So yes, he's very effective in an effective attacking side but does he himself create that mood and focus or does he thrive when it becomes evident in his side?

Whoa, Doctor Freud. Thats a psychological mouthful. Love to know how you came up with that. As a Saints fan I haven't seen that. I have seen times when the defense closes everything down and no one gets through. And times when he is off his game, as happens with every player. But, thats quite deep.

I don't even know why I defend the little bugger. He is leaving Saints to go to the dark side. In a few years will probably be made of metal, wear black and go looking for his son Luke. Almost every response to a comment about him is laced with emotion. Weird.

I think the reason for that is despite his obvious ability and skillset he comes accross as an incredibly odious individual. He was the epitome of everything taht was bad about Englands attitude at the RWC. If Guscott is correct when he says Lancaster will get rid of him if there is any sign of that attitude; then he may knuckle under and produce the goods. He seems to have the very worst wendyball attitude for a rugby player.

TycroesOsprey,
You win the word for the day award. Odious. I freakin love that word. You da best.

But at the RWC, I don't recall him tossing any dwarves, jumping in the water, sticking his face in women's chests, or doing any other nasties. I just think for some reason he has crawled up a bunch of people's bums and encysted there. I don't get it. I don't even see the odious. But I still love that word, and owe you a pint for using it.

He was involved in the drunkeness or have you missed the pictures of him and Tindall unable to to stand up taht were flashed around the world?

He was involved in the Maid baiting as well along with Hartley and Haskell.

Also if you watched some of the podcasts from the RWC you would have seen an incredibly imature individual who could make Henson look like a rocket scientist.

I can forgive him being dumb but he was clearly involved in teh alledged dwarf throwing and sexual harrassment prroblems. Hence the word odious.

I really don't recall that, but you sound like you have seen it, so I will have to go along.

But to say he is less mature than Henson?
Now those are fighting words.
I challenge you to a duel: Dwarves at twenty paces and come out throwing. You odious person.

Im not getting ointo a dwarf throwing contest with an Englishman.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2038420/Des-Kelly-Expect-hangover-hell-boozing-treated-lark.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/8915196/Hotel-maid-allegations-against-England-players-whos-involved.html

Just to raise a point on the early comments on him only scoring against poor opposition. In a previous thread someone actually worked out the percentage of tries scored against every team. His record against top 5 ranked teams was as better than wee Shane and i think Bowe but behind i think Campo and maybe Kirwan.

Can't remember them off the top of my head but the point was that wingers are always likely to score more against weak opposition. If you look at Norths record I'm sure most of his tries would be from games against Fiji and Namibia. He does also have tries against better nations, just like Ashton. Grey is right in that everyone hates him for pretty much no reason, or blows it all out of proportion.

To me someone like Parra is far more deserving of all this hate, now he really is an odious little s***!!!

Him, Ben Youngs and Harley. I can't stand them , odious is a great word. They just remind me of grange hill school bullies. If they were in Hogwarts they'd be in Slytherin.

As a player he's a great finisher and the league player in him runs great supporting lines. But watching him play for Saints, particularly when the were beaten by the Scarlets, he didn't seem interested when they were losing. When there pack weren't winning the game he lacked confidence. The English pack are no longer the dominant force they once were, it will interesting to see how he performs when the forwards aren't bullying the opposition

Frosties,
I am sure wingers always score more against weaker opposition. Thats the nature of the little primadonnas. But I am sure you are right. Seroiusly. But thats unlike the rest of us who take it up against tough opposition, get the snot beat out of us then touch it down, occasionally.

I cannot agree more about Morgan Parra.
1. He is a scrum half, therefore odious
2. He whinges all the time, therefore odious
3. He constantly complains to the ref about everything, therefore odious
4. He is odious, therefore a scrum half

Isn't he the guy whom Courtney Lawes injured in the Amlin (or whatever name) cup final a couple of years ago?

TycroesOsprey wrote:He was involved in the drunkeness or have you missed the pictures of him and Tindall unable to to stand up taht were flashed around the world?

He was involved in the Maid baiting as well along with Hartley and Haskell.

Also if you watched some of the podcasts from the RWC you would have seen an incredibly imature individual who could make Henson look like a rocket scientist.

I can forgive him being dumb but he was clearly involved in teh alledged dwarf throwing and sexual harrassment prroblems. Hence the word odious.

Tycroes,

Ashton wasn't involved in the dwarf throwing. He got drunk that was it.

There was never anything conclusive about the maid allegations. From reading the transcripts it actually seemed like she made it up and sold a story to the papers. The RFU made the players pay not because they were guilty but because they didn't want to look bad.

I didn't see anything wrong in the podcasts/blog videos. It just seemed like they were having a laugh. It says a lot about you if you judge someone from watching a video which is obviously a goof.

It seems like you believe a bit too much of what you read in the papers. I on the other hand stopped that a long time ago.

Look, Israel Dagg and Corey Jane went out on the sauce mid week, played a blinder on the Saturday and NZ forgave them. Zac Guilford walked into a pub naked and started assaulting the patrons after verballing harassing a female cyclist. The bar named a drink after him and the NZRU invited him home, fended off the media and put him into a rehabilitation programme.

By contrast, what are we doing that we feed our star players to the wolves like this? As a nation and as supporters we need to stop being quite so hypocritical (I don't know about you, but I've had a few jars on business trips and done/said the odd thing I'm not proud of - I don't see the difference), and show a bit of respect for the sacrifices these guys make to represent us. We're the first to claim their deeds when they win, after all.

The hypocrisy is incredible. Its ok for an allblack but when an English player does it hes public enemy number one. I agree the media and the public love to hate.

You weren't representing your country on your business trip , you went a professional sportsman

We are always and firstly representing ourselves. End of story. Unless you are suggesting that they wouldn't have behaved that way if they were there independently. In which case, what does that say about the state of player/management dynamics. Are you suggesting they went out deliberately the sabotage the team effort? I think that's a bit far fetched.

The Kiwi lads I mentioned earlier, they were in the same boat. Professional sportsmen. I don't see the distinction you are attempting to draw at all. Or are you saying it's only wrong if the country they are repsenting is England?

The RFU simply left the players hung out to dry. While the NZRFU actually managed their players.

Hersh i would love to see the stats on games played v tries scored for 2011,
For example Shane Williams missed half the world cup so he is hardly going to score from the stands.

It's a very good point. Didn't Shane score effectively a winning try against Ireland? and not play in any of the pool romps? I seem to recall him scoring from a borderline pass against Australia. Perhaps just scoring a lot of tries isn't as important as getting the ones that matter. Worth consideration. I guess I would have swapped all of Ashton's tries in the RWC for one against France to go through to the semi now you mention it.

Shane scored the first early try which set the tone of the game. It put Ireland on the back foot early on and instead of kicking points they went for territory and tried to out play us at rugby, which they lost.

Fewer game changing tries always count for more than lots of fairly meaningless ones.

This is why statistics don't show the whole story.

gowales wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:He was involved in the drunkeness or have you missed the pictures of him and Tindall unable to to stand up taht were flashed around the world?

He was involved in the Maid baiting as well along with Hartley and Haskell.

Also if you watched some of the podcasts from the RWC you would have seen an incredibly imature individual who could make Henson look like a rocket scientist.

I can forgive him being dumb but he was clearly involved in teh alledged dwarf throwing and sexual harrassment prroblems. Hence the word odious.

Tycroes,

Ashton wasn't involved in the dwarf throwing. He got drunk that was it.

There was never anything conclusive about the maid allegations. From reading the transcripts it actually seemed like she made it up and sold a story to the papers. The RFU made the players pay not because they were guilty but because they didn't want to look bad.

I didn't see anything wrong in the podcasts/blog videos. It just seemed like they were having a laugh. It says a lot about you if you judge someone from watching a video which is obviously a goof.

It seems like you believe a bit too much of what you read in the papers. I on the other hand stopped that a long time ago.

Go,

1. read my post again I accused him of drunkeness. Since alledgedly nobody threw a dwarf it was used as a catch all for the disgraceful behaviour on that night. Hence the word alledged.

2. I called it maid baiting for that precise reason. It is still odious behavior.

3. personal taste clearly differs for me he came accross as a complete buffoon if thats goofing we agree to differ.

4. The links were there for Dr Grey who had missed them.

defence of the indefensible and from an alledged welshman as well.

How is it defence for the indefensible. He got drunk, he made a mistake lets move on.
I am Welsh. If not critiquing Chris Ashton's private life and not supporting Welsh independence makes me not Welsh i don't know what else to say really.

Wow,
I shouldn't have tried to defend the little blighter. This thread is getting way too long, and I was just called into work. The point of what I was trying to make is he has been unfairly demonised, and this pre-dates the RWC by some time. I didn't think this thread wouild go off. But fairly said and fairly done. By all. So my rebuttal to all, including my odious self:

munkian wrote:As a player he's a great finisher and the league player in him runs great supporting lines. But watching him play for Saints, particularly when the were beaten by the Scarlets, he didn't seem interested when they were losing. When there pack weren't winning the game he lacked confidence. The English pack are no longer the dominant force they once were, it will interesting to see how he performs when the forwards aren't bullying the opposition

Interested is a state of mind, and I doubt we know what that was. He was not terribly involved, but the team was not doing all that much either. Involved v. interested. I choose involved, because that was fact, not supposition.

And not for nothing a strong pack is not a bunch of bullies and are not bullying. They are playing winning Rugby, and a dominant pack is Nirvana (which reminds me of a song).

gowales wrote:The RFU simply left the players hung out to dry. While the NZRFU actually managed their players.

Player management by the RFU, especially the watching young men out on the town has been terrible. Every national team watches, or rather minds, all their players when on tour. Every team. This doesn't get a lot of ink because it is bad press, but all teams do it. It is a bit shocking England/RFU failed in this. More than once.

The big failure here is to understand is these players represent all of us. Just people with funny accents from some rainy islands somewhere off the coast of Europe. Amazing how our differences are trivial to most of the world. When I have travelled to other countries, either through my Army medical work or through Rugby, almost everyone views us as being the same. Irish, English, Scots or Welsh. All ruddy the same. So its in all our interests these lads - don't forget most are young lads rarely out in the big bad world - reflect on us all. We should want them to show us at our best.

gowales wrote:How is it defence for the indefensible. He got drunk, he made a mistake lets move on.
I am Welsh. If not critiquing Chris Ashton's private life and not supporting Welsh independence makes me not Welsh i don't know what else to say really.

Are you actually reading my posts or are you just having a tantrum about what you think you have read because you clearly are not understanding and simply seem to be looking for an argument.

1. My first and subsequent posts were in response to a question posed by DG as to why people dislike Ashton. Since the incidents happened in English colours I have nothing to move on from its not my team or nation that was dragged through the mud last october!

2. As for the welsh independence debate I suggest you go back and read what I posted. I agreed about the failure of devolution? Or are you a product of the failed Education system I railed against in that post and basic comprehension is beyond you?

It was unacceptable behaviour. No one I think is seriously questioning that.

The point has been well made. Those responsible have been appropriately disciplined.

Are we seriously going to bring these same points up every single time one of the player's names in mentioned? or are we going to accept that they did something wrong and then give them the opportunity to show they have moved on and grown as people and maybe, just maybe respect the talent that got them into the squad in the first place?

I'm thinking Dallaglio here. A guy who Did Stuff Wrong, but now is remembered as a legend of the game who has earned respect from fans across the world.

Perhaps we can just accept that making mistakes is what humans do and get on with watching rugby, realising it's not our responsibilty to impose sanctions, cast stones or hold anyone accountable.

Maybe bullying is the wrong word then , dominating then ? Out playing ?

Key moment for me was when there was a knock on by they saints in there own 22 which led to a Scarletts try. Ashton just stood there , the fastest Saints player on the pitch doesn't even chase the oppositions full back whilst the Saints forwards trundle along after him.

doctor_grey wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Will he score that many tries again? I doubt it, because England are unlikely to get enough go forward to enable even Chuck Norriss to score more a couple of tries in this tournament. It really doesnt matter how much of an all round talent your winger is, he will struggle to score if his side isnt on top.

Methinks you are right. Mehopes you are wrong.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Ashton does seem more prone to that than other high profile wingers though.

Here I disagree. One thing he does not do is hang on the wing waiting for someone to remember he is there. He regularly comes inside looking for work, trying to find the gaps and move the ball on. He hits the gaps hard, hits them at pace, and that's his strength. I would hazard a guess he has more tries inside than outside. His work rate is usually high.

If you read my full post above I discussed that ... his bad period camke when he ended up lurking out on the wing looking bored because England werent providing him the pltform to come in and exploit the gaps in the dfence. If his midfield and forwards arent pushing the oppostion back and providing quick ball he cant do what he does best.




With reagrd to his behaviour I read an interview with him today where he was " saying all the right things"
He let England down ( he was part of the Tindall gang), he doesnt want to appear arrogant, he relaises theres a time and a place for swan diving ( a year and a bit after Johnson gave him a rollicking for it). No apology for the hair pulling mind, but that was against Johnny Foriegner so I suppose its OK.
Whether or not thats straight out of the Danny Cipriani on message script book we will have to wait and see.
Its easy and OK to be arrogant and obnoxious when youre scoring tries and your sides winning, not so much when you arent. I guess thats why you dont see many arrogant Welsh players.

gowales wrote:I think the top try scorer will be Julien Malzieu

That might be worth a bet, actually.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Will he score that many tries again? I doubt it, because England are unlikely to get enough go forward to enable even Chuck Norriss to score more a couple of tries in this tournament. It really doesnt matter how much of an all round talent your winger is, he will struggle to score if his side isnt on top.

Methinks you are right. Mehopes you are wrong.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Ashton does seem more prone to that than other high profile wingers though.

Here I disagree. One thing he does not do is hang on the wing waiting for someone to remember he is there. He regularly comes inside looking for work, trying to find the gaps and move the ball on. He hits the gaps hard, hits them at pace, and that's his strength. I would hazard a guess he has more tries inside than outside. His work rate is usually high.

If you read my full post above I discussed that ... his bad period camke when he ended up lurking out on the wing looking bored because England werent providing him the pltform to come in and exploit the gaps in the dfence. If his midfield and forwards arent pushing the oppostion back and providing quick ball he cant do what he does best.




With reagrd to his behaviour I read an interview with him today where he was " saying all the right things"
He let England down ( he was part of the Tindall gang), he doesnt want to appear arrogant, he relaises theres a time and a place for swan diving ( a year and a bit after Johnson gave him a rollicking for it). No apology for the hair pulling mind, but that was against Johnny Foriegner so I suppose its OK.
Whether or not thats straight out of the Danny Cipriani on message script book we will have to wait and see.
Its easy and OK to be arrogant and obnoxious when youre scoring tries and your sides winning, not so much when you arent. I guess thats why you dont see many arrogant Welsh players.

Look, a couple of years the Springboks had a well publicised competition to see who could pull out one of George Smith's dreadlocks and bring it back to the changing sheds. At the time it was met with a raised eyebrow and a suggest that this was exactly the kind of mongrel attitude that made the Springboks so fearsome. I have no idea what goes on at close quarters in the professional game, but in my day it was what you'd expect. The lad's been foolhardy by being so blatant in the eye of the camera, but I'm sure these guys who go out with Rapunzel's hair have to be prepared for someone to climb up it from time to time.

miteyironpaw wrote: The lad's been foolhardy by being so blatant in the eye of the camera, but I'm sure these guys who go out with Rapunzel's hair have to be prepared for someone to climb up it from time to time.

Ill remeber not to let my daughter go out in a skirt incase you take that as an open invitation to Cuddle in a bad way her.

(gotta love that word filter!)

Now now. You know what I mean. I accept he was foolish. But as one of our southern friends said - they're not playing tiddlywinks out there. The recipient of the treatment is a big lad who prides himself on inflicting pain on his opposites. Has he complained?

There was a time when you'd be sneered off the battleground (sorry, meant playground) for pulling another guy's hair. You'd never live it down and a few fancy names would follow you all the way into adulthood.

Times must have changed on the playgrounds.

miteyironpaw wrote:Now now. You know what I mean. I accept he was foolish. But as one of our southern friends said - they're not playing tiddlywinks out there. The recipient of the treatment is a big lad who prides himself on inflicting pain on his opposites. Has he complained?

Well I think the mass brawl it sparked off constitued a complaint in the finest Union tradition. Tigers as a general principle dont report opposition players for citings.

You don't report the citing commissioner watches over a game and takes note for matters that may need looking at again,
But Tigers did try and sue the Ospreys and stuck their nose right in with the Lee Byrne 16th man incident,
even thou the citing panel were trying to sort it out.

I can only hope that he gets what he is due.