Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

by Rugby_Girl Sun 05 Feb 2012, 5:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

by HammerofThunor Sun 05 Feb 2012, 7:45 pm

Well if both legs are lifted the player is off the ground. If they've got one leg on the ground they're unbalanced.

by MrsP Sun 05 Feb 2012, 7:50 pm

I'm not having a gripe I'm just trying to understand why people think it was a penalty.

I fully understand why Barnes thought it was a yellow but I just can't see why people who have seen it properly think it was apenalty.

Just saying,

"It wasn't quite bad enough for a yellow so it must be just a penalty."

isn't a good enough explanation in my book.

Cymro, the number of legs lifted matters because the law says,

"Lifting a player from the ground ..."

How can you lift a player from the ground if he has one of his feet on the ground?

by ChequeredJersey Sun 05 Feb 2012, 7:51 pm

MrsP wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Penalty, not a yellow, but pen was enough for Wales to win

Penalty because...?

It was a tip tackle. The Welsh player did well to keep a foot on the ground for awhile but as Ferris' power continued to drive him back, both feet were in the air and he hit the ground head first. That is impossible if your feet haven't left the ground. It wasn't deliberate, but that's irrelevant. It wasn't extreme, but that's irrelevant. Ferris didn't need to lift the one leg that allowed that to happen, he should have been careful. It was was more marginal than Warburton's in the RWC which should have been yellow IMO, but it was certainly a penalty

by ChequeredJersey Sun 05 Feb 2012, 7:52 pm

BBC Highlights of the game, 3.30. By the letter of the law, that is a tip tackle. It was harsh to give but fair and maybe the law is too extreme

by MrsP Sun 05 Feb 2012, 7:55 pm

By the letter of which law?

He didn't lift the player.

by logie28 Sun 05 Feb 2012, 7:57 pm

I'm Optimist wrote:Congrats logie28. Spot on! I almost lost my voice pointing out those exact fouls during the game but unfortunately Connacht is too far from the Aviva for me to be heard.

Thanks Optimist, but it appears we are in a minority of 2 who have spotted these things. How, im not sure, the Falateu tackle was as blatent a penalty and yellow card as you could ever see, and it wasnt even replayed, or commented on during the coverage. Staggering how international officials couldnt see it during the match, but hey ho, 2 years in a row, we just have to suck it up

by ChequeredJersey Sun 05 Feb 2012, 7:58 pm

MrsP wrote:By the letter of which law?

He didn't lift the player.

He did, because both of the player's feet were off the ground in the air whilst Ferris was hold him and driving him, accidentally, top first into the ground. I think it should still be allowed to a lesser degree especially in cases like this, but it's not

by nathan Sun 05 Feb 2012, 7:58 pm

MrsP wrote:But, how can you be said to have lifted a player who still has a foot on the ground?

The essential part is that you first have to have LIFTED the tackled player.

But the law doesn't say lifted them off their feet, it says lifted them. Correct decision in my opinion.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:01 pm

logie28 wrote:He lifted the leg because he was trying to drive him BACKWARDS not upwards, tackled player tried to keep going forwards, driving down. Horrifically harsh penalty to give at any time.

But just as annoying are the 2 other yellow cards that werent awarded 20mins in, Kearney catches up and under, is tackled and ireland have quick ball in cnetre field just outside welsh 22, murray picks up and is tackled by Falateu comming back from behind the ruck. Most blantent penalty offense, almost certain yellow, Barnes misses it completely. Then of course James Hooks deliberate slapdown when ireland had overlap. Again, almost certain yellow, not even mentioned.

(well played wales btw, but these terrible decisions cost ireland the win)

Didn't see Faletau, Hook, I agree, was lucky that Barnes gave him the benefit of the doubt

by MrsP Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:05 pm

The law doesn't say,

"Tackle a player so that both their feet are off the ground"

It says,

"Lifting a player from the ground"

Otherwise there are going to be an awful lot of illegal tackles made.

by Guest Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:07 pm

I can lift a table but still have some of its legs on the floor! It's still lifting. What if a player is crouching? You could lift him up a fair way (til his legs were almost straight but one was still in contact with the ground) and then tip him. That would still be illegal.

by Guest Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:08 pm

Get lost Ireland with your halo! it was a yellow to the letter of the law,

Thats all we heard in the world cup.

by Cymroglan Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:10 pm

As he was going down both feet were off the ground but only one leg above the hip.
The law does not say that both feet need to be above the hips? or does it.

by MrsP Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:11 pm

View,

All you heard in the World Cup was,

"It's a straight red!"

And rightly so.

No halo, just trying to understand.

by doctor_grey Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:11 pm

Ah, MrsP, oh great "Scourge of Christmas and Happiness"

I was given two explanations about tip tackles a few months back, one at an IRB youth coaching conference and another at a Rugby injury medical meeting (which had RFU, IRFU, and NZRU involvement and, interestingly, NFL involvement). Distilling down a lot of the legalese and mumbo-jumbo, my interpretation of what I was told is that a foot can still be on the ground. One leg down still makes the rest of the body about one yard (or metre, if you like) in the air. Driving a body down three feet onto the head is just as serious whether there is a foot still in contact with the ground or not. The referees are supposed to have some room for interpretation about how high, how hard driven down, and the like, and that will factor into the severity of the penalty. But, mostly, it comes down to how vulnerable someone is and what the tackler is doing with him.

In the match today, I don't think it would have mattered whether it was yellow or a simple penalty. The kick was the match.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:13 pm

Flip me like, some of the people here would be better watching "Strictly Come Dancing" instead of rugby it seems. In what way was that tackle a bad tackle? Was he picked up and dropped? No. Was he driven into the ground? No. Did it look like in anyway the player being tackled would get in any way hurt? No. He was simply picked and driven back. People say "oh but that is the law" etc, and try to play it safe by the ref's book but this is just pathetic.

The fact that Ferris got a yellow, the same punishment as your big thug Davies, is appalling.

by Casartelli Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:15 pm

Slightly off topic but on the subject of rules.

How come Barnes allowed Rob Kearney to play his own weird interpretation of Gaelic/American football today?

Tackling people in mid air, charging in to players who didn't have the ball, diving head first over opposition players miles away from play...and the ref just waved play on???

The boy's going to hurt someone if he's allowed to play like that. Probably himself!

by gowales Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:15 pm

Hey now Davies isn't a thug. He just lost his head. He's usually pretty calm in matches

by ChequeredJersey Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:16 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Flip me like, some of the people here would be better watching "Strictly Come Dancing" instead of rugby it seems. In what way was that tackle a bad tackle? Was he picked up and dropped? No. Was he driven into the ground? No. Did it look like in anyway the player being tackled would get in any way hurt? No. He was simply picked and driven back. People say "oh but that is the law" etc, and try to play it safe by the ref's book but this is just pathetic.

The fact that Ferris got a yellow, the same punishment as your big thug Davies, is appalling.

True because it shouldn't have been a card and Davies should have been a red only because no worse card currently exists. But it was a penalty and in the context of the game that is what counts. Maybe if Bradley had been off, Wales wouldn't have scored in the last 5. But that penalty was correct, IMOSHO

by MrsP Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:16 pm

By that definition though any tackle which ends up with the player landing arm first is a penalty?

There will be an awful lot of penalties.

I am not arguing whether it was a yellow card or not I'm just trying to work out which law he broke.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:17 pm

Casartelli wrote:Slightly off topic but on the subject of rules.

How come Barnes allowed Rob Kearney to play his own weird interpretation of Gaelic/American football today?

Tackling people in mid air, charging in to players who didn't have the ball, diving head first over opposition players miles away from play...and the ref just waved play on???

The boy's going to hurt someone if he's allowed to play like that. Probably himself!

I thought he was contesting the ball in the air, is that no allowed?

by Cymroglan Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:19 pm

Yes if he is near the ball but the ball was yards behind him

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:19 pm

What Davies did was thuggish, and I am still very angry about today's game. I don't know if this was out of character for him or not, but if it isn't I won't be holding a grudge against him for it. Anyone can lose their head, though he was very very stupid indeed. That could have resulted in a pretty bad injury.

by Cymroglan Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:25 pm

Yes Davies was stupid in doing what he did he should not have retaliated.

by HERSH Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:26 pm

I have a feeling this one is going to rumble on all week. Very Happy

by Liam Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:27 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What Davies did was thuggish, and I am still very angry about today's game. I don't know if this was out of character for him or not, but if it isn't I won't be holding a grudge against him for it. Anyone can lose their head, though he was very very stupid indeed. That could have resulted in a pretty bad injury.

Think he was reacting to the botha esque shoulder barge at Adam's shoulder, but it in no way warranted that kind of dangerous stupidity that could have ended another man's career. I'm sure he will look back on it and regret it deeply because he does not strike me as the kind of man to do something like that.

by Casartelli Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:28 pm

The Ferris incident was yellow by the letter of the law, if not the spirit of the game.

Bradley Davies should never have even been penalised! It wasn't a tackle, it was handbags off the ball. And if it wasn't a tackle, then it couldn't have been a dangerous one.

Donnaaccchha (spelling?) Ryan tried to dish out a bit of a Bakkies Botha cheapshot at a ruck - and got smashed in return.

Simple as I'm afraid. Rough justice - but justice.

And he should leave the nasty stuff to the hardnuts!

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:29 pm

What annoys me more about him was when he was given the yellow he actually said "f*ck off" to the referee, who obviously didn't hear him. At that point I was literally wanting to throw something at the tv, he seemed like such a knob. Was hoping Ryan would hop back to his feet and chin him one.

by TJ1 Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:29 pm

You do not have to drive the lifted layer into he ground for it to be foul play - once you lift the hips above the head then you are responsible for putting them down safely. Ferris did not put him down safely after lifting his leg (s) above his head -

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:29 pm

Casartelli wrote:The Ferris incident was yellow by the letter of the law, if not the spirit of the game.

Bradley Davies should never have even been penalised! It wasn't a tackle, it was handbags off the ball. And if it wasn't a tackle, then it couldn't have been a dangerous one.

Donnaaccchha (spelling?) Ryan tried to dish out a bit of a Bakkies Botha cheapshot at a ruck - and got smashed in return.

Simple as I'm afraid. Rough justice - but justice.

And he should leave the nasty stuff to the hardnuts!

Obvious WUM. Do try harder.

And I'm sure if someone came up to you on the street and dropped you on your head, you would be calling the police. Don't be such an idiot.

by doctor_grey Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:30 pm

MrsP,
I agree there is a lot of gray area in what I was told. When someone is picked up off his feet and driven down it is very clear.

This was different. To me this was a fairly close run thing and, frankly, I wasn't sure it was a penalty. I was giving you some context from what I was told. It seems than anytime a player is picked up and the head angles down the referee doesn't give the benefit of the doubt. Unfortunately I was watching is a pub and I don't have access to a replay. This discussion drives me nuts because now I need to see it again to make sure I am clear with what I saw.

by HammerofThunor Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:31 pm

What's this letter of the law? It says that dropping or driving someone onto head or neck is a red and scale down if needed. Players can be lifted with the legs above the horizontal but the player is responsibly in ensuring they hit the ground safely. The players seemed to land safely to me and therefore no penalty

BBC website, game highlights, 3:30

by Liam Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:31 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What annoys me more about him was when he was given the yellow he actually said "f*ck off" to the referee, who obviously didn't hear him. At that point I was literally wanting to throw something at the tv, he seemed like such a knob. Was hoping Ryan would hop back to his feet and chin him one.

He was too busy trying to smash Adam's shoulder to be worried about Davies' thuggery.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:32 pm

TJ wrote:You do not have to drive the lifted layer into he ground for it to be foul play - once you lift the hips above the head then you are responsible for putting them down safely. Ferris did not put him down safely after lifting his leg (s) above his head -

In what way did he not land safely? Awk did your man not land on his wee bumsy? This is rugby for flip sake. He landed on his side, not his shoulder/head.

by Casartelli Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:32 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Casartelli wrote:The Ferris incident was yellow by the letter of the law, if not the spirit of the game.

Bradley Davies should never have even been penalised! It wasn't a tackle, it was handbags off the ball. And if it wasn't a tackle, then it couldn't have been a dangerous one.

Donnaaccchha (spelling?) Ryan tried to dish out a bit of a Bakkies Botha cheapshot at a ruck - and got smashed in return.

Simple as I'm afraid. Rough justice - but justice.

And he should leave the nasty stuff to the hardnuts!

Obvious WUM. Do try harder.

And I'm sure if someone came up to you on the street and dropped you on your head, you would be calling the police. Don't be such an idiot.

Not a WUM - just a statement of the facts.

And if I charged into a defenceless person, looking the other way, on the street, and his mate picked me up and dropped me on my head - I would consider that I probably deserved it. tbh.

by Gatts Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:32 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Casartelli wrote:The Ferris incident was yellow by the letter of the law, if not the spirit of the game.

Bradley Davies should never have even been penalised! It wasn't a tackle, it was handbags off the ball. And if it wasn't a tackle, then it couldn't have been a dangerous one.

Donnaaccchha (spelling?) Ryan tried to dish out a bit of a Bakkies Botha cheapshot at a ruck - and got smashed in return.

Simple as I'm afraid. Rough justice - but justice.

And he should leave the nasty stuff to the hardnuts!

Obvious WUM. Do try harder.

And I'm sure if someone came up to you on the street and dropped you on your head, you would be calling the police. Don't be such an idiot.

Wasn't the 'it wasn't a tackle' the reason Umaga and Mealamu got away with rearranging BOD? If so Davies should escape a ban

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:34 pm

It was a game of rugby for goodness sake and Ryan cleared someone with his shoulder, with someone coming in and dropping him on his head, which could have been a very serious injury. Like I said, don't be such an idiot. You are the only person I have seen think Davies shouldn't have been red carded and cited, never mind not penalised.

by TJ1 Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:34 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
TJ wrote:You do not have to drive the lifted layer into he ground for it to be foul play - once you lift the hips above the head then you are responsible for putting them down safely. Ferris did not put him down safely after lifting his leg (s) above his head -

In what way did he not land safely? Awk did your man not land on his wee bumsy? This is rugby for flip sake. He landed on his side, not his shoulder/head.

he dropped him he did not put him down safely - now that thee law as I understand it. complaint he law is wrong if you want but the ref applied the law -0 it was a dangerous tackle in the eyes of the law

by **rodders** Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:35 pm

I don't think it was a penalty, definitely not a yellow. The player wasn't dropped and came down on his side. Poor descision but Wales were deserved winners overall.

by Cymroglan Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:35 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What annoys me more about him was when he was given the yellow he actually said "f*ck off" to the referee, who obviously didn't hear him. At that point I was literally wanting to throw something at the tv, he seemed like such a knob. Was hoping Ryan would hop back to his feet and chin him one.

Donnacha knows why BD retaliated and in my opinion both of them should have left the field. You simply cant shoulder charge defenceless players this is not RL

by Guest Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:36 pm

a nice picture of D'O'ryan in the daily mail laughing on the floor with the medic after he got slammed, the medic is telling him Davies has been binned!

He should have been binned as well for his shoulder charge on Adam Jones.

by HERSH Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:37 pm

I can't believe people are defending the idiot, but I'm sure he'll pick up a nice 5/6 week ban.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:37 pm

Honestly I didn't see what Ryan did myself, but nothing justifies what Davies did. What if he had broken Ryan's neck? Would take a pretty sick person to justify that.

by Casartelli Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:37 pm

Donnaccha Ryan should be cited for soccer-style play acting.

Made a miraculous recovery the instant the yellow card was shown.

by Cymroglan Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:38 pm

I'm not defending BD

by gowales Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:39 pm

Most people aren't justifying what Davies did. But Ryan had something coming Davies should have gave him a smack instead.

by Liam Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:39 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Honestly I didn't see what Ryan did myself, but nothing justifies what Davies did. What if he had broken Ryan's neck? Would take a pretty sick person to justify that.

I agree Davies should have seen red there was no need for the way he reacted. But he reacted to blatant bit of dangerous play by Ryan who smashed shoulder first into Jones' shoulder. I'm sure Bakkies Botha was JUST clearing a ruck wasn't he?

by Casartelli Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:39 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It was a game of rugby for goodness sake and Ryan cleared someone with his shoulder, with someone coming in and dropping him on his head, which could have been a very serious injury. Like I said, don't be such an idiot. You are the only person I have seen think Davies shouldn't have been red carded and cited, never mind not penalised.

The only person?

You mean apart from the assistant ref? Who was right there when it happened?

by Guest Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:41 pm

Im not defending him, the lad was daft reacting to him,
He should have know better, Ireland always throw in cheap shots when under pressure "sign of a weak team"
Anyways chin up Irish fans at least you don't boo the kicker laughing

by Casartelli Sun 05 Feb 2012, 8:44 pm

In fairness - I actually really respect the whole 'we don't boo the kicker - unless they have a kick to win the game' thing.

Proper rugby theatre.

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