Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

by Rugby_Girl Sun 05 Feb 2012, 5:25 pm

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

by wayne Tue 07 Feb 2012, 7:43 pm

My take on this as an ex player and Welsh is that BD should have seen RED and should recieve a lengthy ban ( at least 9 weeks), and that SFs tackle was clumsy that warranted a penalty but no more.
If WB had SEEN both tackles, I think the synopsis I give above would be the most likely outcome, the person most at fault over this farce is DP he should have authorised a red card immediately.
DR is also culpable what he did was cowardly and dangerous and he should have been cited IFF it was missed by DP.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 07 Feb 2012, 7:44 pm

Risca Rev wrote:I'll be honest Mrs P, the only thing that's hard for me to comprehend is how this discussion is still ongoing, because the whole discussion is just going round in circles.

It's also a little disappointing that this keeps popping up at the top of the board, when the match discussion (a great match) has dropped off (I think). I am aware of the irony of me posting saying about this thread appearing up the top and my post helping to bump it again

That's you all over, ye great gallah, just a walking piece of irony - am I seeing you in Cardiff on Sunday, or in other words, are you back home yet? I'll need someone that can keep up in the drinking Ale

by Guest Tue 07 Feb 2012, 7:53 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:I'll be honest Mrs P, the only thing that's hard for me to comprehend is how this discussion is still ongoing, because the whole discussion is just going round in circles.

It's also a little disappointing that this keeps popping up at the top of the board, when the match discussion (a great match) has dropped off (I think). I am aware of the irony of me posting saying about this thread appearing up the top and my post helping to bump it again
That's you all over, ye great gallah, just a walking piece of irony - am I seeing you in Cardiff on Sunday, or in other words, are you back home yet? I'll need someone that can keep up in the drinking

No mate, I am still here till the end of the month. My drinking will be poor after three months dry.

Stop suckering me into bumping this now, you rascal laughing

by **rodders** Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:06 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Griff wrote:What about this one then. Stephen Jones yellow carded for a tip tackle on Tommy Bowe. Personally, I think that both this and the Ferris one shouldn't be penalties. Well, should in the current laws, but I feel these are too strict. With the Stephen Jones tackle, which he got a yellow card for, the speed of Bowe meant that his momentum carried him over. I don't think Stephen Jones had any intention, and I don't feel he could have done much differently apart from either letting him run through without trying to tackle him or just lying on the floor and hoping Bowe trips over him. Seriously, the game is getting too soft. I know that Jiffy gets on most non-welsh fans' nerves, and some welshies too, but I agree with him that these sort of tackles are ok. It's miles different than a proper spear tackle. If a player drives a player head first into the mud then fine, Red and ban. But delicately placing a 100 kilo man back on the ground, making sure his shoelaces are nicely tied and his pillow is plumped is just not realistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUmQ_7AF4Fw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

We'll have to go to touch rugby soon because players will be too scared to tackle. Actually, we'll then probably have yellow cards for players 'touching' too hard.

Stephen Jones wasnt cited over that, they felt he had no case to answer.
It was a bad call by the ref, not a problem with the laws.

As for the touch rugby comment, they keep saying that in soccer yet players still get crippled by bad tackles every year.

That was a joke too, first time I've seen it. Good tackle and on par with the Ferris incident. Not a penalty and not a yellow.

by TJ1 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:25 pm

Its really easy just ensure they go down safely when that happens and its no penalty

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:42 pm

Risca Rev wrote:I'll be honest Mrs P, the only thing that's hard for me to comprehend is how this discussion is still ongoing, because the whole discussion is just going round in circles.

It's also a little disappointing that this keeps popping up at the top of the board, when the match discussion (a great match) has dropped off (I think). I am aware of the irony of me posting saying about this thread appearing up the top and my post helping to bump it again

Rev!!!

How's about ya?

You do realise that I am just going to have to keep posting on this thread now just to... Whistle

...remind you of us!

Very Happy

by Guest Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:04 pm

So, anyone think we'll see players deliberately tipping themselves in the tackle to win a penalty and possibly get a player sent off? We're already seeing diving coming in, etc. I think it's just a matter of time.

E.g. You're running with the ball, see a defending player get into position for a textbook tackle, as he hits you and drives you do a bit of a spring and make sure you go over his shoulder, legs in the air, crash down on your shoulder. That could be misconstrued as a tip tackle. The ref can't be asked to determine intent, so it's a penalty regardless. The defender protests his innocence but is guilty of not returning the player to the ground safely.

Could this happen in real life?

by Guest Tue 07 Feb 2012, 9:08 pm

By the way, my above example I think happens now, but not always deliberately by the attacking player. Sometimes in a tackle the attacking player wriggles or squirms or twists so that they are in a better position to place the ball back on their own side, otherwise it may be turned over. But, by doing this they end up crashing to the floor head first, feet in the air. How can the defender be blamed for this???

by **rodders** Tue 07 Feb 2012, 11:20 pm

If the Ferris ruling is upheld then the IRB should just get referees to penalise attackers for running too hard at defenders. Thats the best way to avoid any risk of momentum taking a player off the deck.

Tip tackles are dangerous and need to be delt with severely but there is a big difference between a hard tackle that results in a player being driven off the deck and a deliberate or reckless tip or spear.

When a player can't make a well executed tackle for fear of momentum taking the attacker off the deck and them landing any part of their body from waste up then the game is in serious trouble. Landing on an elbow is not dangerous and its clear from the footage that Evans is being driven backwards and not downwards.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Tue 07 Feb 2012, 11:24 pm

rodders you know they specifically bought this rule in just to annoy you dont you?

This whole debate is getting ridiculous.

They should probably allow punching because Azam and that Saffa tried to con the ref.

by slartibartfast Tue 07 Feb 2012, 11:27 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:rodders you know they specifically bought this rule in just to annoy you dont you?

This whole debate is getting ridiculous.

They should probably allow punching because Azam and that Saffa tried to con the ref.

What? Punching's not legal?

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 4:53 pm

At least someone in the disciplinary process has some sense.

I have said it elsewhere but will repeat it here.

The attitude of some poster on this subject over the past few days has left me totally disgusted.

by miteyironpaw Wed 08 Feb 2012, 4:56 pm

slartibartfast wrote:
Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:rodders you know they specifically bought this rule in just to annoy you dont you?

This whole debate is getting ridiculous.

They should probably allow punching because Azam and that Saffa tried to con the ref.

What? Punching's not legal?

What you REALLY need to do if you REALLY want, is to "accidentally clash heads whilst slipping during a ruck clean out", in a christian way, not meaning any harm, because you're not like that, as everybody knows.

by SecretFly Wed 08 Feb 2012, 5:52 pm

Rugby is a dangerous game. We've all seen the big hits over the years. And some YouTube junkies gloat on them. But a big hit on a small man, or a man turned awkwardly, or a man lying prone in a ruck, or from behind, can kill or have catastrophic health implications just as much as the deliberate act designed to hurt.

But, knowing that, we all still want the game to continue and that means that heavy tackles will be made... we'll rejoice in some (as long as they are 'fair'... whatever that is as they can still maim or kill) - and we'll call for the hangman for others. Both can do serious damage. But the law has to make a judgement on what it considers intentional dangerous play and hard hitting rugby. The distinction is made or else we'll just have to wrap up rugby and consign it to the same fate as that other once great Italian sport - feeding Christians to the Lions.

by **rodders** Wed 08 Feb 2012, 6:59 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:rodders you know they specifically bought this rule in just to annoy you dont you?

What rule? There's a rule you can't tackle a Welshman in the 78th minute when you're one point up and in front of your own sticks?! ...well thats quite annoying, yes.

by HammerofThunor Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:06 pm

Just read the BBC article. It'll be interesting to read the hearing report as they didn't uphold the citing rather than ban for 0 weeks (which has happened). It'll be interesting to see if they considered it a penalty or not.

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:11 pm

Was it a penalty did Ryan Jones score a try it's all swings and roundabout.

by HammerofThunor Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:11 pm

IMO No and No

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:15 pm

Why do you believe it was not a try ? Is it because you could not see the ball grounded,
It's not that long ago that a try would have been given in that situation,

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:16 pm

Thunor,

Did you see the stuff I posted about the "red card rule" for citable offences?

by HammerofThunor Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:21 pm

I don't see how you can give it if you can't see it grounded.

There are plenty of things that happened before TMO and all the camera's. Tries also used to be less points and Spear tackles weren't illegal. So what?

MrsP, yes I did but I still don't believe that only red card offences are cited. If they are then many many many more red cards should be given out than currently are (e.g. trips). Or stamping, that's another that is generally given a yellow but then get a couple of weeks bans

by **rodders** Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:24 pm

Cymroglan wrote:Was it a penalty did Ryan Jones score a try it's all swings and roundabout.

Thats a seperate debate. Like the debate about Davies, Ryan or whether or not Wales deserved to win or not.

This is about Barnes penalising Ferris and giving a yellow card for making a perfectly legitimate tackle. It should not have been a penalty and the IRB have as much as acknowledged that the tackle was fine.

Theres a fair chance Wales would have got the winning score from that position and on balance Wales were better but thats not the point.

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:26 pm

So it was not given because we could not see the ball being grounded but that does not mean it was not a perfectly good try.
As I said it's all swings and roundabouts in sport

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:27 pm

roddersm Where have they said it was not a penalty? As far as I can see all they have said that no further punishment is needed.

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:30 pm

Don't you just love it when your logic prevails only for the other person to completely change the focus of the discussion?

Thunor,

Could it be that the particular trips that were cited were considered dangerous and so worthy of a card plus or minus a ban?

by HammerofThunor Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:31 pm

Unfortuately the players cheat as much as they can get away with. In the good old days the captains ensured the laws were followed. If we could still trust them then it may be given.

There nothing we can do about that. Either he got it down or he didn't. There's no way that it could be verified by either the ref or the TMO so it couldn't be given. It's pointless debating or even discussing it (it may be worth discussing BOTD but that's a general topic).

With Ferris, what happened is clearly visible, from several camera angles, and therefore can be discussed/debated.

by HammerofThunor Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:32 pm

MrsP wrote:Don't you just love it when your logic prevails only for the other person to completely change the focus of the discussion?

Is that at me regarding the red card thing?

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:34 pm

No.

Not at all.

Only realised it might look that way after I posted.

Sorry!

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:34 pm

Me then ?

by Feckless Rogue Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:36 pm

1. That try could not be given. We saw loads of angles loads of times and it didn't show the ball being touched down from any angle. In fact it showed Irish players hands under the ball before it disappeared under all the bodies.

2. The Ferris penalty was a marginal call but not a yellow.

3. Davies should have got red. The linesman gave the ref all the information he needed to make the right call, but he bottled it.

4. None of this changes the fact that Wales were far better and could have won by more, but for missed kicks,

by HammerofThunor Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:37 pm

I didn't think it was but thought I'd check.

Cymro's right, just because the panel have "not upheld the citing" doesn't mean it wasn't a penalty. What does that even mean? Is it that they didn't think it should have been cited? Or that it wasn't an offence.

I don't see how they could not ban him if it was deemed a tip tackle. Given the current IRB recommendations. And if it wasn't a tip tackle then what was wrong with it? Nothing.

Hopefully we'll get to read the report when it comes out. I find very interest to read (much better than making snap decisions based of tabloid articles)

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:37 pm

Not really any one particular person alone just the general trend of,

Discuss the Ferris tackle and produce logical argument....

Well, Ryan should have been cited too....

Produce logical argument to refute this....

Well was it a try?....

Produce logical argument....

Well what about Murray?

etc etc.

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:40 pm

And then finally,

"Well come back when you know more about rugby!",

as a charming poster told me last night when faced with logic!

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:40 pm

Feckless Rogue

I disagree with nothing you have said and I said this before the last thing I wanted to see happen was Ferris to get a ban simply because I want you to beat France..

by HammerofThunor Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:43 pm

Logic and forums should have no dealings.

My favourites are when someone says the only reason England are good at U20 level is that the players are more experienced. And then goes on to say it won't matter as they progress because they don't get a chance at the clubs.

Regarding Murray, I don't like it and it seems to have crept in and is pretty common

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:44 pm

Cymroglan wrote:Why do you believe it was not a try ? Is it because you could not see the ball grounded,
It's not that long ago that a try would have been given in that situation,

Precisely, we could not see the ball grounded, but we could all see the tackle plain enough

by HammerofThunor Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:45 pm

Then he should cover himself up. Doesn't want to get done for indecent exposure

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:45 pm

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 7:47 pm

There are some fans on here who would have him charged, convicted and sentenced on the "evidence" you have just produced there lads!

by **rodders** Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:04 pm

Cymroglan wrote: roddersm Where have they said it was not a penalty? As far as I can see all they have said that no further punishment is needed.

If they've acknowledged it wasn't a tip tackle then what was the penalty for?

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:06 pm

Just found this on the Skysports site,

"But Ireland's sense of grievance over the manner of their defeat will only have intensified, after manager Michael Kearney revealed the hearing felt Ferris' tackle did not justify the penalty that Leigh Halfpenny landed to win the game.

"We are delighted that Stephen has been totally exonerated of any wrongdoing by the disciplinary panel and that he is now available for selection against France," Kearney said.

"While we understand and fully support the stance to stamp out dangerous tackles in the game to make it safe at all levels, the disciplinary panel itself felt that the decision to award a penalty was incorrect and we also felt that it was a fair and legitimate tackle by Stephen."

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:11 pm

We just have to wait for the full report to be published all we have now is snippets in the media.

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:15 pm

Do the Six Nations disciplinary committees publish reports?

I seem to remember that in previous years they did not.

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:16 pm

Things go for you and things go against you that's the nature of the game.
At normal speed the ref believed it was a dangerous tackle and he based his decision on what he believed was the right thing to do.
There were numerous instances during the match that each side had calls for a penalty but were not given.

by SecretFly Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:16 pm

We lost the game...I'm not going to say Wales stole it again. They played a lovely game, I only wish our players could have met them in the challenge to play open attacking rugby.

But technically, that's twice Ireland got shafted by officialdom in two straight years. I'm not annoyed - we did most of the damage to ourselves...and refs make mistakes.
We're just having a miserable time with bad calls in recent years - to add to the misery of bad performances.

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:23 pm

MrsP wrote:Do the Six Nations disciplinary committees publish reports?

I seem to remember that in previous years they did not.

Yes they often do on the IRB website but not all cases though.

http://www.irb.com/mm/document/tournament/mediazone/02/06/09/54/120109supplementaljodecisioneliotafuimaono-sapolu.pdf

by MrsP Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:25 pm

I have said many times that I can understand why Barnes thought it was a tip tackle. He only got to see it once in real time and had to make a call.

I can live with that.

The problem I have is with those who had the chance to watch it many times in slow motion from several angles and still insisted it was a dangerous tip tackle.

Even when you explain why it could not have been, talk them through it frame by frame, post the definition from the IRB they still insist it was a tip tackle and call you names for suggesting otherwise.

Some even going so far as to suggest that Ferris deserved the same ban as Davies.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

by Rava Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:31 pm

MrsP wrote:I have said many times that I can understand why Barnes thought it was a tip tackle. He only got to see it once in real time and had to make a call.

I can live with that.

The problem I have is with those who had the chance to watch it many times in slow motion from several angles and still insisted it was a dangerous tip tackle.

Even when you explain why it could not have been, talk them through it frame by frame, post the definition from the IRB they still insist it was a tip tackle and call you names for suggesting otherwise.

Some even going so far as to suggest that Ferris deserved the same ban as Davies.

There are none so blind as those that will not see.

AMEN!!

by Cymroglan Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:34 pm

Personally I think it was a dangerous tackle that warranted a penalty but not for one sec do I believe there was any malice intended.
When Ferris attempted a tackle like that 30 meters out then he was taking a unnecessary risk in giving away a penalty when all he needed to do was take man and ball.

As for deserving the same ban as Davies then they are talking out of their ass there was no comparison

by Imperial Ghosty Wed 08 Feb 2012, 8:48 pm

Davies should have been red carded and personally think that he's got off lightly with a 7 week ban, was a disgraceful 'tackle' that could and probably should have done serious damage to Ryans neck.

The Ferris one is tricky, don't think it was a yellow card or even a penalty but that's with the benefits of a replay.

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