Stephen Ferris tackle- Was it a yellow card or even a penalty

First topic message reminder :

Wales won the match after Leigh Halfpenny kicked a penalty with under 1 min to go. Stephen Ferris was given a yellow card for a 'dangerous' tackle, everyone seems to agree yellow was harsh but was it even a penalty or was it just a good tackle?

**EDIT UPDATE from Adam**

The International Rugby Board and Six Nations have backed Referee Wayne Barnes over the penalty decision that led to Ireland's Stephen Ferris being yellow carded during the RBS 6 Nations match at the Aviva Stadium on February 5.

While an Independent Six Nations Disciplinary Panel did not ultimately uphold the citing, the IRB’s match officials performance review endorsed Barnes' decision to award a penalty. On first viewing the panel could understand exactly how the match referee came to his decision. In dismissing the citing no criticism of the referee’s on field decision should be taken or inferred. It was only after careful and prolonged analysis of the dynamics of the contact, including slow motion and step by step viewing, that the committee was able to see the strength of the submissions made in favour of Stephen Ferris.

All match officials are selected for International competition on merit. Performances are reviewed on an ongoing basis and taken into consideration when appointments are made for future international competitions.

Neither organisation will make any further comment on this matter.

Casartelli wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It was a game of rugby for goodness sake and Ryan cleared someone with his shoulder, with someone coming in and dropping him on his head, which could have been a very serious injury. Like I said, don't be such an idiot. You are the only person I have seen think Davies shouldn't have been red carded and cited, never mind not penalised.

The only person?

You mean apart from the assistant ref? Who was right there when it happened?

And who suggested a yellow card? Yet you are saying he shouldn't even be penalised?

Sorry what is your point again?

Gatts wrote:Wasn't the 'it wasn't a tackle' the reason Umaga and Mealamu got away with rearranging BOD? If so Davies should escape a ban

Let's not get started on that, eh? That play was what started raising the official reaction and response to the danger of tip tackles.

But let me make a point about that. If the Lions - any of the Lions - turned around and put their fist straight through Umaga's nose and into the sinus cavities - this would have been sorted years ago. The way I was raised in Rugby, and most of us I should guess, is if a treammate is hit, tackled, etc., with intent to injure, then deal with it right then and there.

To not defend a teammate is unforgivable.

And a high profile incident like that would have caused the IRB to close down that kind of foul play once and for all. I personally think they were afraid to do anything.

Actually booing probably steadied his nerves he is used to that.

True Cymroglan like being back home unfortunately

It was definitely a penalty............. the intent was to tip backwards and drive down, its clear as day. If Ian Evans wasn't about 10ft tall with about 6ft legs !! he would have been on his back.

Yellow card unfortunately yes!!............ its all about intent

Cymroglan wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What annoys me more about him was when he was given the yellow he actually said "f*ck off" to the referee, who obviously didn't hear him. At that point I was literally wanting to throw something at the tv, he seemed like such a knob. Was hoping Ryan would hop back to his feet and chin him one.

Donnacha knows why BD retaliated and in my opinion both of them should have left the field. You simply cant shoulder charge defenceless players this is not RL

Shoulder charge a defenceless player?! He was standing at the front of a ruck for God's sake! If that's not a place where you expect to get hit the I don't know what is! Some of you 'fans' need to get your red glasses off and see it for what it was. Davies should get at least a 2 month ban.

See,

More confusion.

How can Ferris have "lifted" the guys hips above his shoulders if the lads leg was still on the ground?

That's my problem here.

He definately lifted one leg and caused the guy to over-balance so his head ended up below his hips. Just before his arm made contact with the turf his "grounded" leg left the floor.

I just can not see how you can say he lifted the "player" from the ground.

I don't see where "making a player fall over" is against the laws of the game.


And, for the record, I think what Davis did was stupid and dangerous but I don't think of him as a thug at all. It was in retaliation but while that may explain it, it really doesn't excuse it.

In any tackle there is the significant possibility that the tackled player will land on his arm.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:It was a game of rugby for goodness sake and Ryan cleared someone with his shoulder, with someone coming in and dropping him on his head, which could have been a very serious injury. Like I said, don't be such an idiot. You are the only person I have seen think Davies shouldn't have been red carded and cited, never mind not penalised.

The only person?

You mean apart from the assistant ref? Who was right there when it happened?

And who suggested a yellow card? Yet you are saying he shouldn't even be penalised?

Sorry what is your point again?

Errm..I've forgotten now. Something along the lines of, Donnaccha Ryan tried a cheapshot - got what he deserved for it, then play acted like this was soccer. And should be cited.

Bet O'Connell and O'Callaghan 'have a word'. Don't see them bringing the game into disrepute like that. Proper rugby players, see.

Errm..I've forgotten now. Something along the lines of, Donnaccha Ryan tried a cheapshot - got what he deserved for it, then play acted like this was soccer. And should be cited.

Bet O'Connell and O'Callaghan 'have a word'. Don't see them bringing the game into disrepute like that. Proper rugby players, see.[/quote]

I'm sorry but you can't say Ryan was play acting he was thrown on the back of his head and neck. He was probably happy that 1) he was ok and 2) Davies had got what he deserved for it.

Don't try dishing it out if you can't take it...

MrsP wrote:See,

More confusion.

How can Ferris have "lifted" the guys hips above his shoulders if the lads leg was still on the ground?

That's my problem here.

He definately lifted one leg and caused the guy to over-balance so his head ended up below his hips. Just before his arm made contact with the turf his "grounded" leg left the floor.

I just can not see how you can say he lifted the "player" from the ground.

I don't see where "making a player fall over" is against the laws of the game.


And, for the record, I think what Davis did was stupid and dangerous but I don't think of him as a thug at all. It was in retaliation but while that may explain it, it really doesn't excuse it.

In any tackle there is the significant possibility that the tackled player will land on his arm.

He tipped his leg over the horizontal line, meaning he was tipping him onto his neck. Regardless of whether his leg was on the floor, the man is almost 7ft for god sake he's bound to have one leg on the floor. Warbs tackle was on a man of a 5 ft 7 statue, looks awful when it has occurred. It didn't look as bad because Evans is such a huge man. If you replace Evans with 1/2p then we have a serious problem then don't we. And, yes I have to say you are right it wasn't thuggery, I thought it was but I saw what Ryan did and he got carried away in his retaliation, should have just socked him one and moved on.

I will agree with you there, I really wish Ryan got up and completely clocked Davies, because I doubt Davies would have been on the field much longer if that happened, card or no card.

MrsP wrote:See,

More confusion.

How can Ferris have "lifted" the guys hips above his shoulders if the lads leg was still on the ground?

That's my problem here.

He definately lifted one leg and caused the guy to over-balance so his head ended up below his hips. Just before his arm made contact with the turf his "grounded" leg left the floor.

I just can not see how you can say he lifted the "player" from the ground.

I don't see where "making a player fall over" is against the laws of the game.


And, for the record, I think what Davis did was stupid and dangerous but I don't think of him as a thug at all. It was in retaliation but while that may explain it, it really doesn't excuse it.

In any tackle there is the significant possibility that the tackled player will land on his arm.

Did you watch the match.............. He lifted Evans above his shoulders NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, and he tipped Evans and drove down, the issue is Ian Evans is 6ft 9in and even though he was above his shoulders his legs are so long that he managed to keep one on the ground. A player 8-9 INCHES shorter e.g. 6ft could have been seriously injured

The INTENT was clearly there .......... so pen and yellow card

Intent of what? Injuring him?

MrsP wrote:See,
More confusion.

Now I have to see a replay.

Madam, you are driving me nuts. You are persistant, unforgiving, and unrelenting. And now, I am not 100% sure exactly what I saw any more.

Once, many years ago, there was this other woman who wouldn't let go of a point. Never let it go. Wouldn't give up. Would never, never stop. Kept banging, banging, banging on with the same stupid point. Made me absolutely crazy. Only thing I could do to shut her up was to marry her.

She still thinks she won the arguement.

Casartelli wrote:Don't try dishing it out if you can't take it...

I agree, Ryan deserved some sort of retaliation. It was a cheap shot and dangerous and the Welsh lads knew what happened to Adam on the Lions tour, and saw it attempted again. But Davies should not have done what he did, I honestly think he was trying to dump tackle him, but not spear him. He lost control of him and thought have some of that without thinking, but still shouldn't have reacted the way he did.

refs are obviously under pessure when it ncomes to spear tackles- just dont do them, dont do anything close to them or you may get sent off

flyhalffactory wrote:

MrsP wrote:See,

More confusion.

How can Ferris have "lifted" the guys hips above his shoulders if the lads leg was still on the ground?

That's my problem here.

He definately lifted one leg and caused the guy to over-balance so his head ended up below his hips. Just before his arm made contact with the turf his "grounded" leg left the floor.

I just can not see how you can say he lifted the "player" from the ground.

I don't see where "making a player fall over" is against the laws of the game.


And, for the record, I think what Davis did was stupid and dangerous but I don't think of him as a thug at all. It was in retaliation but while that may explain it, it really doesn't excuse it.

In any tackle there is the significant possibility that the tackled player will land on his arm.

Did you watch the match.............. He lifted Evans above his shoulders NO DOUBT ABOUT THAT, and he tipped Evans and drove down, the issue is Ian Evans is 6ft 9in and even though he was above his shoulders his legs are so long that he managed to keep one on the ground. A player 8-9 INCHES shorter e.g. 6ft could have been seriously injured

The INTENT was clearly there .......... so pen and yellow card

Exactly my point, replace with Evans with Shane or someone slightly smaller like you said and you've got a serious problem

Gatts wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Casartelli wrote:The Ferris incident was yellow by the letter of the law, if not the spirit of the game.

Bradley Davies should never have even been penalised! It wasn't a tackle, it was handbags off the ball. And if it wasn't a tackle, then it couldn't have been a dangerous one.

Donnaaccchha (spelling?) Ryan tried to dish out a bit of a Bakkies Botha cheapshot at a ruck - and got smashed in return.

Simple as I'm afraid. Rough justice - but justice.

And he should leave the nasty stuff to the hardnuts!

Obvious WUM. Do try harder.

And I'm sure if someone came up to you on the street and dropped you on your head, you would be calling the police. Don't be such an idiot.

Wasn't the 'it wasn't a tackle' the reason Umaga and Mealamu got away with rearranging BOD? If so Davies should escape a ban

Yes and that was a disgrace to the good name of the All-Blacks and has diminished my respect for the great Umaga to a huge degree

JmD wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What annoys me more about him was when he was given the yellow he actually said "f*ck off" to the referee, who obviously didn't hear him. At that point I was literally wanting to throw something at the tv, he seemed like such a knob. Was hoping Ryan would hop back to his feet and chin him one.

Donnacha knows why BD retaliated and in my opinion both of them should have left the field. You simply cant shoulder charge defenceless players this is not RL

Shoulder charge a defenceless player?! He was standing at the front of a ruck for God's sake! If that's not a place where you expect to get hit the I don't know what is! Some of you 'fans' need to get your red glasses off and see it for what it was. Davies should get at least a 2 month ban.

He was sat on his ass with his back to him. And yes BD should get a ban

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I will agree with you there, I really wish Ryan got up and completely clocked Davies, because I doubt Davies would have been on the field much longer if that happened, card or no card.

The fact that Ryan got completely owned in an impromptu wrestling match doesn't suggest he would have done much better at boxing though, does it?

Yes, because being good at wrestling defines whether one is a good boxer or not..

Very simple in my opinion.

1)Should have been a red

2)Tackle was fine

I think the phases and momentum that Wales were building probably would have resulted in a 3 pointer somewhere. Again international refereeing standards undermined what was a great game!

Casartelli is a disgrace and shouldnt be engaged with on an otherwise decent forum guys

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, because being good at wrestling defines whether one is a good boxer or not..

Maybe he should take up boxing. Don't think he'll make the grade at test rugby.

O'Callaghan and O'Connell would NEVER have been physically humiliated like that on their own turf.

I bet they refused to have a pint with him after the game - for failing to uphold the honour of the great Irish second rows that have worn the jersey previously.

I think we may be talking about different shoulders here?

If you are standing on one leg how can anyone lift your hips above your shoulders?

They can certainly make you fall over so that your shoulders end up below your hips but they can not be said to have lifted your hips above your shoulders.

Making someone fall over is not an offence in rugby as far as I know.


If what Ferris did was a penalty then every time a player tackles another by one leg is a penalty too, no? And every "tap" tackle too.

Here I remember you Casartelli - this explains everything I guess.

You were the guy who said that the Ospreys banning fake tan was a form of racism aren't you? I guess that sort of sums up the things you are saying today as well, that you can legally dump somebody onto their neck, especially if it is off the ball..

Sorry Doc Grey.

Thanks for the very kind offer but I have one husband already and I think that is enough!

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Here I remember you Casartelli - this explains everything I guess.

You were the guy who said that the Ospreys banning fake tan was a form of racism aren't you? I guess that sort of sums up the things you are saying today as well, that you can legally dump somebody onto their neck, especially if it is off the ball..

Actually, Rory - I had some very positive feedback about the fake tan joke.

I sense we will not see eye to eye on this - but I felt it fair to point out that if you're the type of player that likes to dish out the cheapshots - you can't complain one someone sticks a better one on you. That's all.

Can't remember that part like. I thought it might have explained this nonsense too that dropping people on their neck is okay, especially if off the ball. In fact I think that is the definition of a cheap shot.. And supporting somebody for doing such a thing, which could easily have resulted in a broken neck is pretty disgusting IMO.

logie28 wrote:Casartelli is a disgrace and shouldnt be engaged with on an otherwise decent forum guys

WTF!!!

As a seasoned veteran of 25 posts Logie, I respect your opinion.

All I will say in my defence is - there are possibly some people who do more disgraceful things on the internet.

MrsP wrote:Sorry Doc Grey.

Thanks for the very kind offer but I have one husband already and I think that is enough!

I agree too many husbands and wives can be a bit unweildy.
All I was doing was explaining how I made this "Other Woman" shut the heck up.
Strangely, it hasn't worked since............

Well, I could see how the threat of marriage would be a "single use only" thing.

Truer words, madam. Truer words.............

The Ferris incident was a tackle that ended up awkward and deserved to be penalised in the same way some high tackles are pinged without malicious intent. The yellow card was harsh and wouldn't have been given had Wales not had one earlier.

Davies had nothing in his head but intent to injure and will undoubtedly get a lengthy ban. Given his record the guy seems a bit of a liability and Wales might be better served without him.

flyhalffactory wrote:It was definitely a penalty............. the intent was to tip backwards and drive down, its clear as day. If Ian Evans wasn't about 10ft tall with about 6ft legs !! he would have been on his back.

Yellow card unfortunately yes!!............ its all about intent

No it isn't nor can it be. It's impossible to judge someone's intent, and basing punishment on intent doesn't allow for certain things such as recklessness. Someone may not intent to illegally tackle someone, but if they are being careless they still warrant punishment. Conversely, what if someone did intend to do an illegal tackle but was so incompetent that they didn't managed it?

I agree that there are angles where this tackle looks very bad, and it probably did warrant a penalty. I just don't think you can develop a rule that is based on intent.

I hesitate to introduce the element of farce into this topic - but with regard to all this talk about lifting hips higher than shoulders - if the tackled player immediately at the tackle bends down to touch his toes - well I suspect regardless of the gentlemans size, his hips will be higher than his shoulders and if he then jumps an inch orr two in the air - voila - a red card is indicated.
PS - In my opinion BDs tackle was exceedingly dangerous - more so than Warburtons tackle in the world cup as Ryan landed higher up his shoulders/neck region than Clerc (let alone the fact that the incident wasnt a "tackle" in that it was off the ball - it was picking the guy up and dropping him in a dangerous way). And I agree with MrsP (seeing as she is my wife and I find life easier that way) that Ferris's tackle was a tackle and there was no foul play, let alone intent to harm as in BDs action

It wasn't a tackle, if it was at the ruck it is not a tackle, ask Umaga and Mealamu

OK - it wasnt a tackle it was outright thuggery?

Of course it was thuggery and he will get a ban for it and a lengthy one at that..
He simply should not have retaliated.

Ferris lifted his leg above the vertical. Above his head, his waist every part of his body. He didn't put him down safely. Letter of the law it is a penalty and is no different from what Warburton was sent off for during the World Cup in which every Irishman on here said was a correct decision. I find it completely hypocritical that they say otherwise now.

Davies should be banned for a long time for what he done.

poissonrouge wrote:I hesitate to introduce the element of farce into this topic - but with regard to all this talk about lifting hips higher than shoulders - if the tackled player immediately at the tackle bends down to touch his toes - well I suspect regardless of the gentlemans size, his hips will be higher than his shoulders and if he then jumps an inch orr two in the air - voila - a red card is indicated.
PS - In my opinion BDs tackle was exceedingly dangerous - more so than Warburtons tackle in the world cup as Ryan landed higher up his shoulders/neck region than Clerc (let alone the fact that the incident wasnt a "tackle" in that it was off the ball - it was picking the guy up and dropping him in a dangerous way). And I agree with MrsP (seeing as she is my wife and I find life easier that way) that Ferris's tackle was a tackle and there was no foul play, let alone intent to harm as in BDs action

Mr P you are correct............ Davies should be banned for the season, highly dangerous, Red Card and season ban
Mr P (and Mrs P) you are incorrect.............. Ferris (to a lesser extent) clearly went down to lift Evans above his shoulders. tipped in motion and drove down, only reason it didnt look worse is Evans is 6ft 9in........... it was a (Tip) tackle Yellow Card possibly 3 match ban

I agree ref Davies but just cos Evans managed to keep a leg on the floor doesn't make Ferris effort any less severe, the intent was obvious

poissonrouge wrote:I hesitate to introduce the element of farce into this topic

If you truly hesitated, you would not have written anything.
Hence, I smell a Poisson conspiracy.
When husbands and wives actually team up, no real good can come of it.

I still need to see the ruddy play again. This is driving me nuts.

Almost as bad as O'Connells back fist on Jonathan Thomas.

What are people giving out to Ryan for? Is it how he tried to clear out Jones in the ruck? There is nothing wrong with that, I think it was just Davies being a scut.

Theyre talking about what was a bit of a cheap shot by Ryan, Jones is sat on the side of the ruck, arguably not close enough to the ball to interfere with the ball, a push to one side wouldve taken Jones clear quite easily, but he hits him high, hard and in the back, whiplashing effect kinda thing.

In reality it's a poor reaction by Davies, but as in the Tuilagi Ashton case, I would take a guy trying to pick me up and dump me over a cheap shot while my back is turned any day of the week, like i'd prefer to have Tuilagi swinging at me rather than Ashton take a 10 yard run up and drop on my back with his knees from behind!

Davies will receive a ban, but Ryans reaction of oh dear Ive been caught throwing a cheap shot says it all, if he hadn't I can guarentee he wouldve come back up swinging at Davies, he's a pretty tough munsterman after all.

Ferris tackle for me isn't a penalty, but I also beleive Warburtons was a yellow at most, and the penalty given for a tackle on Wilko at the WC V argentina for the winning kick wasn't even a penalty.

The thing that will kill off any argument against the decision is Ferris's body movements, he starts low, takes hold of Evans leg, his legs straighten, as does his back then his body leaves the ground and follows Evans. Because he wasn't able to lift the monster that is Evans completely doesn't mean he doesn't lift the one leg above his head, and drive over, he does technically, to the letter of the law deserve a yellow.

But as I said earlier, Davies deserved a yellow for over reaction, Ryan may have been carded for a cheap shot, and Ferris could've gotten away with a clumsy tackle.

But just as annoying are the 2 other yellow cards that werent awarded 20mins in, Kearney catches up and under, is tackled and ireland have quick ball in cnetre field just outside welsh 22, murray picks up and is tackled by Falateu comming back from behind the ruck. Most blantent penalty offense, almost certain yellow, Barnes misses it completely. Then of course James Hooks deliberate slapdown when ireland had overlap. Again, almost certain yellow, not even mentioned.

Oh dear...

If your reffering to Kearney taking the ball above 1/2p, the players had already made contact before kearney touched the ball, it was a great take by Kearney over a small man who had planted before Kearney arrived, therefore Kearney wasn't tackled.
Tobi's tackle was as a 2nd man, the ruck had ended, and the welsh defencive line was set and numbered.
And Hooks 'slap' down? You are kidding, it was a milder version of the Irish 'slap' down in the first half!

Personally i didnt see it as a yellow card offense. As for the penalty, well it could have just as easily not been given. Its just one of those things that happen and i doubt that Ferris will get into any trouble for it.