Two players cited after weekend

by Adam D Tue 07 Feb 2012, 11:17 am

First topic message reminder :

Two players have been cited following the RBS 6 Nations match between Ireland and Wales in Dublin on Sunday.

Bradley Davies (Wales) and Stephen Ferris (Ireland) have been cited by the independent Six Nations Citing Commissioner for the match, Achille Reali (Italy), for foul play under IRB Law 10.4(j)*.

The players’ hearings, before an independent Six Nations Disciplinary Committee, will be held on Wednesday (8 February) in London.

*Law 10.4 (j) states: “Lifting a player from the ground and dropping or driving that player into the ground whilst that player’s feet are still off the ground such that the player’s head and/or upper body come into contact with the ground is dangerous play”.

by SecretFly Tue 07 Feb 2012, 2:55 pm

miteyironpaw wrote:To be fair, only one of his legs is lifted. He choses to lift the other one of his own accord. Perhaps he should have been penalised and issued a yellow card for tip-tackling himself. And then cited.

Humourous point but also with a serious ring. Given that we all know how serious the tip-tackle is regarded by the officials (and rightly so - it is a needlessly spine-threatening, life-threatening assault in a game already full of such risks)... how easy is it for a player to effect a tip-tackle on himself? I mean, when you know what you're doing and protecting yourself whilst doing it, you can make something not designed by the tackling player look quite dramatic on screen.

Dangerous tip-tackling happens, not saying it doesn't. But players are also creative if they think a card might be shown. Nobody is a saint out there. Such feints would be as hateful as the genuine thing.

by miteyironpaw Tue 07 Feb 2012, 2:59 pm

SecretFly wrote:
miteyironpaw wrote:To be fair, only one of his legs is lifted. He choses to lift the other one of his own accord. Perhaps he should have been penalised and issued a yellow card for tip-tackling himself. And then cited.

Humourous point but also with a serious ring. Given that we all know how serious the tip-tackle is regarded by the officials (and rightly so - it is a needlessly spine-threatening, life-threatening assault in a game already full of such risks)... how easy is it for a player to effect a tip-tackle on himself? I mean, when you know what you're doing and protecting yourself whilst doing it, you can make something not designed by the tackling player look quite dramatic on screen.

Dangerous tip-tackling happens, not saying it doesn't. But players are also creative if they think a card might be shown. Nobody is a saint out there. Such feints would be as hateful as the genuine thing.

Please don't find ways to take me seriously, or turn my posts into valid points. I find it alarming.

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 2:59 pm

Ian Evans braces himself for the tackle.

Ian Evans puts his own head down to the level of his own hips as they make contact.

Ferris grabs Evans' right leg and heaves it up and back in the tackle.

Evans falls over with one foot on the ground until the force of the tackle knocks him over and his left foot leaves the ground.

Ferris does not "lift the player from the ground".

I wasn't aware that pushing a player over had become a citable offence in rugby.

by SecretFly Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:
miteyironpaw wrote:To be fair, only one of his legs is lifted. He choses to lift the other one of his own accord. Perhaps he should have been penalised and issued a yellow card for tip-tackling himself. And then cited.

Dear Lord, bizarre stuff!!!!!!!!!! Keep taking the pills, miteyironpaw..... *that guy's nuts*

by miteyironpaw Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:13 pm

I see your point.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:16 pm

MrsP wrote:Ferris grabs Evans' right leg and heaves it up and back in the tackle.

I wasn't aware that pushing a player over had become a citable offence in rugby.

How can what you describe in your first sentence then be described as 'pushing a player over?'

by miteyironpaw Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:19 pm

When did we start calling it a Tip Tackle, and not a Spear Tackle? Frankly a tip tackle sounds like something a small dog does to Weeble. I can't get enthusiastic about something with such a benign name being a citing offence.

by GunsGerms Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:21 pm

MrsP wrote:Ian Evans braces himself for the tackle.

Ian Evans puts his own head down to the level of his own hips as they make contact.

Ferris grabs Evans' right leg and heaves it up and back in the tackle.

Evans falls over with one foot on the ground until the force of the tackle knocks him over and his left foot leaves the ground.

Ferris does not "lift the player from the ground".

I wasn't aware that pushing a player over had become a citable offence in rugby.

Exactly. If ferris is cited then North should be too for bowling over McFadden when he ran through him. In fact McFadden when hit by north flew through the air both feet off the ground landing on his back. What's the difference, probably more dangerous what happened to McFadden.

Obviously I don't think North should be cited as it was some incredible play by him but of the two players Evans and McFadden I say McFadden was a lot sorer after. Ferris' citing is ludacris and sets a ridiculous precedent.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:24 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
mckay1402 wrote:As much add I think Davies should have a ban I also think ferris should. Both potentially dangerous tables in my book. doesn't matter that one leg is down and he was horizontal. Made no difference to the result though

Every tackle is potentially dangerous! Should Halfpenny get a ban too for lingering under a high ball upending Kearney on the way down? Now that was dangerous

Ferris had obviously intent to tackle without giving a penalty away, Davies had intent to hurt Ryan because he hurt his mate - not even in the same ball park.

BTW how can conceding a last minute penalty have no difference to the result?

I see what you're saying but the IRB aren't going to look at one tackle in comparison to another and on merit that tackle deserves a ban. I didn't compare them so I don't understand why you're responding as though I did.

I didn't say conceding the penalty had no effect I said the yellow card had no effect

by miteyironpaw Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:24 pm

Ferris' citing is ludacris and sets a ridiculous precedent.

How is it that you can spell ridiculous, but not ludicrous?

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:25 pm

Because that is what happens Lucky.

Look at the position of Evans' head and hips before Ferris even touches him.

If a player is running head long and he is tap tackled and lands on his arm is that a tip tackle?

You have caused both his feet to leave the ground and he has landed on his upper body.

by offload Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:30 pm

Law 15.1 of the IRB leisure rules is clear:

15.1 A tackle occurs when the ball carrier is touched by an opposition player on any part of the body below the shoulders. Match organisers may decide to restrict body areas where touches may be made, particularly where there are mixed gender matches. The tackler must not use excessive force when making a tackle.
Sanction: Penalty kick

I mean it's not like we're talking about a professional test match. Ferris should have been sent to see the head. Smile

by GunsGerms Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:31 pm

miteyironpaw wrote:
Ferris' citing is ludacris and sets a ridiculous precedent.

How is it that you can spell ridiculous, but not ludicrous?

I was comparing the citing to a famous rapper. Smart arse.

by dummy_half Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:33 pm

I think most of us would be surprised if the Davies one doesn't result in a significant ban - I believe 12 weeks is mandated as the start point for a serious dangerous tackle, so there's a possibility he's out of the rest of the 6Ns (depending on whether the citing panel take any mitigation into account, like that Ryan was wrestling him immediately before the dump).

In the Ferris case, I think Sam nailed it - the panel will say that the on-field decision was correct, and won't impose any further sanction. Doubt that they will say 'no case to answer', as I think to the current interpretation of the Laws, they WILL consider it a dangerous tackle because of the level that Ferris lifts Evans' leg to (and Evans does clearly leave the ground and lands with his upper body first - on the linked Youtube vid, pause it at 3:19-3:20, and Evans is in the air). However, it was clearly at the absolute bottom end of the range, so an on-field yellow was marginal.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:38 pm

I've just watched it back again and in my mind there is no doubt that Ferris lifted the leg above his own head and tried to drive evans to the ground. I hope he gets as much of a ban as Davies.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:40 pm

Ferris's tackle falls somewhere between the two, Mrs P. When I saw it live, it didn't strike me as a yellow-card offence, and it's likely that the citing panel won't take any further action against him. But having said that, when Ian Evans lands on his hands, his legs are off the floor and he's more upside-down than horizontal.

by thebandwagonsociety Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:40 pm

Glas a du wrote:
DOD wrote:
Glas a du wrote:The charging and the grappling with Davies in the lead up. If you play the big hard man, do it properly FFS!

Hardly shocking foul play...but you seem to think its ok then for Davies to attempt to break his neck?

No I don't. There is no excuse for what Davies did. I will not defend him, he needs and will get a long ban. But how can you defend Ryan? He more than contributed to his downfall by being a tool. Don't you remember Botha doing exactly the same against Adam Jones on the Lions tour? He was trying to injure a key player for Wales and was miles offside in doing so.

'he more than contributed to his downfall'

an outdated view of rugby dispensing their own form of justice!

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:52 pm

mckay1402 wrote:I've just watched it back again and in my mind there is no doubt that Ferris lifted the leg above his own head and tried to drive evans to the ground. I hope he gets as much of a ban as Davies.

This has got to be one of the saddest things I have read on here.

If you not see the difference between these tackles there is something going on which has nothing to do with rugby.

by GunsGerms Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:54 pm

I thought that was a joke. Hope it was.

by RubyGuby Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:56 pm

All this talk about Ferris's tackle - bet his wifes embarassed Run

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 3:59 pm

It's not about the difference in the tackles. I've never said that Davies tackle isn't worse than Ferris tackle. I just think that according to the same directive that Warburton got sent off for they were both illegal tackles and should be punished accordingly. It makes no difference what we all think though as the citing commission will soon tell us

by majesticimperialman Tue 07 Feb 2012, 4:15 pm

I thought the Tackle Davies made was well and truly dagerous and deserved a LONG BAN.

Ferris on the other hand, is just unlucky to be getting cited.

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 4:16 pm

I have to say, if they were to get the same punishment for those icnidents, you'd really have to start asking questions about someone's sanity or morals.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 4:18 pm

I don't agree that he's unlucky to be cited. He will be unlucky if he gets a long ban.

by MrsP Tue 07 Feb 2012, 4:28 pm

mckay1402 wrote: I hope he gets as much of a ban as Davies.

I think you have just said more about yourself there than anyone else could ever hope to say.

by geoff998rugby Tue 07 Feb 2012, 4:43 pm

mckay1402 wrote:I've just watched it back again and in my mind there is no doubt that Ferris lifted the leg above his own head and tried to drive evans to the ground. I hope he gets as much of a ban as Davies.

Pathetic, sad, clueless and censored

by Morgannwg Tue 07 Feb 2012, 4:46 pm

Ferris shouldn't be banned, I disagree with his yellow too. Going by the rules, the penalty stood and you can't argue with that. It may just be me but I can't see the inconsistent IRB banning one and not the other. It'll be both or neither.

by Luckless Pedestrian Tue 07 Feb 2012, 4:58 pm

I'm certain that if both are punished, Bradley Davies will be punished more severely, even if it's only because what he did was off the ball.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Tue 07 Feb 2012, 5:06 pm

mckay1402 wrote:I've just watched it back again and in my mind there is no doubt that Ferris lifted the leg above his own head and tried to drive evans to the ground. I hope he gets as much of a ban as Davies.

mckay, think you've lost the plot with this one - whether Ferris's tackle was legitimate or not, there's no way he should receive the same ban as Davies - can't believe you think that? Headscratch

by bedfordwelsh Tue 07 Feb 2012, 5:09 pm

For me there was no comparison between the two incidents and likewise Davies' ban should be far worse than anything Ferris recieves.

by Mad for Chelsea Tue 07 Feb 2012, 5:10 pm

Davies should be banned three months minimum, it was truly dreadful. A bit surprised Ferris has been cited at all TBH, though watching the replays again it is a dangerous tackle IMO, so maybe it's understandable. Hope he just gets a slap on the wrist, but don't be surprised if he gets a couple of weeks.

by dummy_half Tue 07 Feb 2012, 5:36 pm

MfC
I think the Ferris citing is almost a matter of routine - he was penalised for a dangerous tackle that could have merited a red card depending on the severity of the offence. That he wasn't red carded probably means an automatic citing to allow further assessment away from the heat of the game.

As I said earlier, I'd be unsurprised if the judgement comes back that the on-field decision was correct and no further sanctions are imposed.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:40 pm

Why only two players?
I am beginning to doubt my sanity.
The Irish 9 dropping his knees on JD2 after he had scored was a nasty petulant foul that went unpunished/unnoticed.
This was a cowardly assault against someone who had finished off a sublime passage of play.
Very few including the citing mush seem bothered,so keep dropping them knees.It is fine to do this.
I despair.

by Cymroglan Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:44 pm

The letter of the law.

It took me a while to accept the above that was used often on here after the Warburton sending off but eventually after the hurt of the loss eased a bit I realised that people were right.

by Standulstermen Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:46 pm

How On earth can ferris drive evans into the ground when he is on the ground himself. Two points

1. I would argue ferris didn't take him off the ground and Evans lost his balance causing his other foot to lift off. This one is debatable

2. If what ferris did is seen as driving or dropping someone to ground then I truly despair.

Either way I suspect guys are never going to see eye to eye with on this.

Saw a photo of Ian Evans patting fez on the head after and I am sure he will get a 'warm' welcome at ravenhill this season. Disgusting behaviour from him albeit he isn't alone and players of all nationalities are doing it. As despicable as waving imaginary yellows IMO.

The one thing I think which could have been cited was murrays knee drop on jiffy jnr after his try .It was at best clumsy.

by dublin_dave Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:51 pm

i still cannot see what ryan did wrong at all Headscratch

davies was blessed not to see red and will get a hefty ban. ferris if not cleared its a complete joke

this is not just irish bias its a simple statement of fact.

we didnt deserve to win but lets not go crazy yeah. wales got a few major breaks

by Taffineastbourne Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:54 pm

Standulstermen wrote:How On earth can ferris drive evans into the ground when he is on the ground himself. Two points

1. I would argue ferris didn't take him off the ground and Evans lost his balance causing his other foot to lift off. This one is debatable

2. If what ferris did is seen as driving or dropping someone to ground then I truly despair.

Either way I suspect guys are never going to see eye to eye with on this.

Saw a photo of Ian Evans patting fez on the head after and I am sure he will get a 'warm' welcome at ravenhill this season. Disgusting behaviour from him albeit he isn't alone and players of all nationalities are doing it. As despicable as waving imaginary yellows IMO.

The one thing I think which could have been cited was murrays knee drop on jiffy jnr after his try .It was at best clumsy.

"Clumsy"?? Rolling Eyes

by Standulstermen Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:57 pm

Well Taff it is always difficult to prove intent. It was worth a citing so I'm not sure we are disagreeing so why the Rolling Eyes

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:58 pm

I didn't like that pat on the head, that was a bit pathetic.

I struggle with how you could watch that incident and say Ferris didn't lift and that Evans fell!

by Standulstermen Tue 07 Feb 2012, 6:59 pm

BlueNote wrote:I didn't like that pat on the head, that was a bit pathetic.

I struggle with how you could watch that incident and say Ferris didn't lift and that Evans fell!

Because his foot maintain s contact with the ground until his hand is just off the floor. Like I say we aren't going to see eye to eye so best just to move on.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 7:01 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:Why only two players?
I am beginning to doubt my sanity.
The Irish 9 dropping his knees on JD2 after he had scored was a nasty petulant foul that went unpunished/unnoticed.
This was a cowardly assault against someone who had finished off a sublime passage of play.
Very few including the citing mush seem bothered,so keep dropping them knees.It is fine to do this.
I despair.

Totally agree. Should have been at least a penalty as I said earlier

by Taffineastbourne Tue 07 Feb 2012, 7:27 pm

Standulstermen wrote:Well Taff it is always difficult to prove intent. It was worth a citing so I'm not sure we are disagreeing so why the

A player going into a player who has just scored with his knees is intending to do what exactly???He cannot prevent the score and can only hope to inflict pain/injury.Do we really want this in our game?
Feel sad that the Irish fans seem keen to argue the semantics of Ferris' tackle and overlook their dirtiest act that was caught on camera. Sad

by GunsGerms Tue 07 Feb 2012, 7:46 pm

Murray was dumb to lead with the knees. It wasn't more dangerous than dropping someone on their head though.

Murray shouldn't have started in the first place anyway. Can't understand that decision. Good player but Reddan is better and has a very good playing partnership with Sexton already where they are very in tune with how eatchother plays.

by Standulstermen Tue 07 Feb 2012, 7:49 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:
Standulstermen wrote:Well Taff it is always difficult to prove intent. It was worth a citing so I'm not sure we are disagreeing so why the
A player going into a player who has just scored with his knees is intending to do what exactly???He cannot prevent the score and can only hope to inflict pain/injury.Do we really want this in our game?
Feel sad that the Irish fans seem keen to argue the semantics of Ferris' tackle and overlook their dirtiest act that was caught on camera.

Sweet Jesus I said he should have been cited and that it was at best clumsy and I am defending him?I suggest you look up the definition of the word 'overlook'

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:07 pm

I wish they'd only use citing for really serious cases (in this case, BD) not for relatively run of the mill incidents. I know the Murray incident was a bit pathetic, and it seems to happen quite a lot (I don't mean from him in particular), but it's not a big deal. Likewise Ferris. it's getting a bit OTT.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:15 pm

"Not a big deal".How sad.Get back to footie.No place in Rugby.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:20 pm

It would have been a big deal had he broken JD2s leg

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:22 pm

It doesn't merit citing, though. I am pretty confident if you asked JD2 he'd say the same.

by mckay1402 Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:24 pm

I only think it merits citing because it wasn't punished on the field. It was certainly due a penalty and maybe a citing just to bring it to attention. Not necessarily for a ban...if you see what I mean

by BlueNote Tue 07 Feb 2012, 8:29 pm

I remember Wales getting a penalty after scoring a try against Rumania when the unsuccessful defender put his knees into Ieuan Evans' back. I wouldn't argue with a penalty having been given if it had been seen. I just think citing is being over-used.

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