Richie Gray, best lock in the world?

First topic message reminder :

You'll have to allow me to indulge in this one for a moment, after being involved in a cracking debate on another thread I got looking up some stats on Richie Gray. Now us Scots don't have a lot to be optimistic about at the moment, after another dismal 6N we do have some glimmers of light.

The biggest glimmer, litteraly has to be Richie Gray.

6ft 9 and 19st 12 he is a monster of a man. In the 6N thusfar he has these impressive statistics :

Meters Carried = 89
Clean breaks = 2
Defenders Beaten = 3
Tackles made = 15
Tackles Missed = 0
Lineouts Won = 11
Opposition Linouts spoiled / won = 4


All well and good, however take into account the other fantastic players in the 6N thusfar. Gray has made more clean breaks and carried the ball further than Jamie Roberts or George North and beaten more defenders than Roberts too.

His defensive record is phenomenal too winning or spoiling 4 opposition lineouts and makeing 15 tackles and missing none.

So, is he the best lock in the world? It has to be said even without my navy blue tinted glasses on I'm struggling to think of a better lock playing at the moment. Happy to hear from other poster as to their suggestions for the accolade of best lock in the world.

Oh and he's only 22.

Just a wee question lads... What defines World Class?

I think this may be important to the discussion at hand.

I think it is bandied about and overused, far too much. It's like the Yanks and now, European kids, use the word Awesome or Aaaawsum, for insignificant items or music etc. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon, Everest, Nepal/Tibet, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls. All these could be described as awesome. An IPod, Adele and Bryan Adams however... can not be.

Brad Thorn is World Class. Why? He won a World Cup, a few Tri-N's, the S15, The HC and The Rugby Super League. Most of them, carrying his team on his back. Now that's World Class.

Richie's hair, however, is todddaly aaawsum.

"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"

Jamie Oliver 2009.

rodders wrote:"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"

Jamie Oliver 2009.

Naw that was BOD. Jamie can only stretch to "Pukka".

Regardless Gibbo, the point stands.

Fair enuf bud. Its an opinion-based forum.

And Im always right.

I was thinking about that earlier Gibson, It intially crossed my mind that who from the 6 nations is genreally considered the best in there position (World Class) out of all the players in the rugby playing world.

After some serious thought i only found Nicolas Mas to be the only one who can be considered the best at what he does , although i'v still got POC pegged as the best lineout operator since Matfield hung up his boots but the rest of his game isn't in the same bracket as James Horwill who i consider to be the best lock in the world.

Gibson wrote:Just a wee question lads... What defines World Class?

I think this may be important to the discussion at hand.

I think it is bandied about and overused, far too much. It's like the Yanks and now, European kids, use the word Awesome or Aaaawsum, for insignificant items or music etc. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon, Everest, Nepal/Tibet, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls. All these could be described as awesome. An IPod, Adele and Bryan Adams however... can not be.

Brad Thorn is World Class. Why? He won a World Cup, a few Tri-N's, the S15, The HC and The Rugby Super League. Most of them, carrying his team on his back. Now that's World Class.

Richie's hair, however, is todddaly aaawsum.

Hey now. You trying to say Rory Gallagher isn't an aaawesome guitarist?

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:I was thinking about that earlier Gibson, It intially crossed my mind that who from the 6 nations is genreally considered the best in there position (World Class) out of all the players in the rugby playing world.

After some serious thought i only found Nicolas Mas to be the only one who can be considered the best at what he does , although i'v still got POC pegged as the best lineout operator since Matfield hung up his boots but the rest of his game isn't in the same bracket as James Horwill who i consider to be the best lock in the world.

Thats a great one Driver. So I suppose that could be expanded to the 2nd & 3rd best in their position in the World. I dont think our Richie is quite there yet.

Asbo's stats do tell a tale of a man on the up though. He continues it for another 2 or 3 years, does it in a RWC or HC, then yes.

'World Class' is being able to draw love and hate, to excite polarised emotional responses, from other nations fans.

Dylan Hartely? Chris Ashton?

Yeah, I see what you mean.

Unusual for you to miss the LURVE Gibbo...

I don't think Grey is anywhere near world class if i'm honest. Meant to be a beast in the scrum , carrys like a horse and is decent banker ball at the lineout but so are Horwill , Whitelock , O'Connell , Wyn Jones and Albacete who are all better players than he is.

Alun Wyn Jones? Really?

I can't agree with any of that at all really. He is at least on par with the best of those guys.

Maybe AWJ was a step too far.....

What ever happened to Courtney 'Girls name' Lawes?

Gray still has more to prove at HC level and you could maybe say international level (not a lot admittedly) to be really top class, he is good but not great yet.

Well he's not going to prove himself in the HEC at Sale I suppose....

I do believe he's world class, I'd just argue that there are a few better guys around than him, experience wise if nothing else.

If he was Irish I'd probably be saying hes the best, but hes not so....

Gatland has never dropped AWJ.

Rod, if he was Irish you would be saying he is shoite, like Earlsy....

Earsly is shoite..... ....

Again, sale are in the hk this year!

Yeah I dunno why people are saying Sale aren't in the HC this year. They are in pool 6 with Cardiff, Toulon and Montpellier.

For me (the OP) I created this thread as a way of being optimistic when we were in the Darkest days of the 6N. I personally think Gray is the best in the world at lock at the moment, and there is a lot of reasons why I think that. Asbo a couple of posts back showed some stats that show him undeiniably to be the best performer at Lock in the 6N, anyone of his size who can sell a dummy to Rob Kearney instead of turning him into road kill goes up in my estimation immediatly.

Gray I would say is the best in the world and if he isn't he is rapping really hard on the door. This season is important. It's a Lions year and he has chosen to go to Sale, a club that will need him playing as many games as possible to challenege for the AP and I reckon Sale with all their signings will be ambitious enough to fancy their chances in the HC too.

I only hope Gray doesn't get burned out because a successful tour with the Lions will make him a superstar IMO.

It's always underestimated how much the younger players learn from the oldies from the other home nations in the Lions tours. Ross Ford I think became a much better player after his Lions tour as did Cusiter in 2005.

That's a good point about burnout Radge - AP teams aren't exactly renowned for resting players and, as an automatic pick for Scotland, he's going to pretty much end up playing every game he is fit for this year. It's not like he's at Glasgow where he'll be rested the week after the AIs or 6N - he'll be straight into an AP dogfight somewhere.

Here's hoping he gets a (very) minor injury (broken pinky toe or something) just after the 6N so he can have a few weeks off to recharge before the end of the season and into the Lions.

Saying that, although Sale have invested well I can't see them getting into the AP playoffs or HK quarters so he should have a few weeks at the end of the season that he can chill out before the Lions

Thomond wrote:Gray still has more to prove at HC level and you could maybe say international level (not a lot admittedly) to be really top class, he is good but not great yet.

T, can you be more specific? I am inclined to refute what you say, but find that I have nothing to bite on!!

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:I don't think Grey is anywhere near world class if i'm honest. Meant to be a beast in the scrum , carrys like a horse and is decent banker ball at the lineout but so are Horwill , Whitelock , O'Connell , Wyn Jones and Albacete who are all better players than he is.

Driver, can you explain why pls?

RDW_Scotland wrote:That's a good point about burnout Radge - AP teams aren't exactly renowned for resting players and, as an automatic pick for Scotland, he's going to pretty much end up playing every game he is fit for this year. It's not like he's at Glasgow where he'll be rested the week after the AIs or 6N - he'll be straight into an AP dogfight somewhere.

Here's hoping he gets a (very) minor injury (broken pinky toe or something) just after the 6N so he can have a few weeks off to recharge before the end of the season and into the Lions.

Saying that, although Sale have invested well I can't see them getting into the AP playoffs or HK quarters so he should have a few weeks at the end of the season that he can chill out before the Lions

RDW, that's not quite true. Don't forget that the opposite side of this argument is often used (incorrectly) to explain why Rabo sides have done better in the HC - however, a quick check of the facts reveals that international players in the AP play about the same number of games as int'l players in the Rabo. I wouldn't expect Gray to turn out for many (if any) LV= Cup games, unless he has been injured and is in rehab on the way to recovery

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:I don't think Grey is anywhere near world class if i'm honest. Meant to be a beast in the scrum , carrys like a horse and is decent banker ball at the lineout but so are Horwill , Whitelock , O'Connell , Wyn Jones and Albacete who are all better players than he is.

Driver, can you explain why pls?

Because he's Scottish?

Thats the only reason I can see. I look at who else could be available for selection at Lock in the world at the moment and there is noone I would take instead of Richie Gray. He has done everything you can expect from a Lock and more.

A lot of Guscott style posters here, making comments about him, but not having watched him. What was it Guscott said? "Too big and too slow to be an international class lock". Or words to that effect. Really did your homework that time Jezza

The last time someone got something that wrong it was 1939 and they were coming down the steps of a plane waving a piece of paper claiming "peace in our time".

Are LV games not played during International windows anyway?

Not seen those stats - still would have expected AP players to play 3 or 4 more games a year than Rabbo players.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:I don't think Grey is anywhere near world class if i'm honest. Meant to be a beast in the scrum , carrys like a horse and is decent banker ball at the lineout but so are Horwill , Whitelock , O'Connell , Wyn Jones and Albacete who are all better players than he is.

Driver, can you explain why pls?

Because he's Scottish?

Why would an English poster be bias in favour of Welsh and Irish players?

Has it occured to you, rather than just insulting everyone elses credibility and knowledge, that maybe not everyone rates him as highly as you do or maybe just rate other players higher based on what they've seen in their own eyes?

rodders wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:I don't think Grey is anywhere near world class if i'm honest. Meant to be a beast in the scrum , carrys like a horse and is decent banker ball at the lineout but so are Horwill , Whitelock , O'Connell , Wyn Jones and Albacete who are all better players than he is.

Driver, can you explain why pls?

Because he's Scottish?

Why would an English poster be bias in favour of Welsh and Irish players?

Has it occured to you, rather than just insulting everyone elses credibility and knowledge, that maybe not everyone rates him as highly as you do or maybe just rate other players higher based on what they've seen in their own eyes?

rodders, not at all, am sure that's not what Radge meant (and I hope he'll forgive me for speaking on his behalf). But by and large, yourself aside, I haven't seen any detailed analysis as to what makes other locks better than Gray - the old classics of 'he can't scrum' and 'he doesn't hit rucks' have been roundly debunked by anyone that watched the 6Ns and the SH summer tour, so I think there's some frustration that we're short on detail? Hope that makes sense

I think players in the weaker team tend to stand out more and maybe get the reputation a bit bigger than actual ability. Like Patrisse for example of it. Lobbe for example. And maybe BOD in the irish backline which is otherways unuseful.

I do think it's worth bearing in mind that thus far Gray has only appeared for Glasgow and Scotland, and that it is 'easier' to look world class ( ) in better teams

anotherworldofpain wrote:I think players in the weaker team tend to stand out more and maybe get the reputation a bit bigger than actual ability. Like Patrisse for example of it. Lobbe for example. And maybe BOD in the irish backline which is otherways unuseful.

AWOP, I disagree (not surprisingly!), and in fact think it's the other way around - the players in relatively weaker teams have to, by&large, play teams that are better than them, hence it is more difficult to stand out - each to their own tho

Asbo, look I made comments about Grays scrummaging and ruck work but they are based in what I watched myself, not what Gusgott or anyone else says.

I may be wrong and my memory may deceive me but I believe Gray was a big part of a Scottish failing at the breakdown during the 6N. Is O'Connell better in that area, Brad Thorn? Yes I believe they are considerably so but thats just an opinion based on what I've seen, which isn't everything.

Can Gray read and call the lineout the way O'Connell can, maul as well, galvanise the players around him? Can he lock down a scrum the way Thorn and Hines can? Maybe but again I haven't seen that yet.

Does he have the ball skills of Victor Matfield? Does he intimate the opposition like Botha and Thorn? Is he as respected and intelligent as O'Connell and Matfield? I'd argue not at this point.

Is he potentially as good or better than all of the above? Yes possibly. Is he taller and more dynamic in the loose? Definitely.

Is he conclusively the best lock in the World or even NH? Not quite in my view yet.

There is clearly a decent argument that he is but I don't think people should be rediculed for believing otherwise.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

rodders wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:I don't think Grey is anywhere near world class if i'm honest. Meant to be a beast in the scrum , carrys like a horse and is decent banker ball at the lineout but so are Horwill , Whitelock , O'Connell , Wyn Jones and Albacete who are all better players than he is.

Driver, can you explain why pls?

Because he's Scottish?

Why would an English poster be bias in favour of Welsh and Irish players?

Has it occured to you, rather than just insulting everyone elses credibility and knowledge, that maybe not everyone rates him as highly as you do or maybe just rate other players higher based on what they've seen in their own eyes?

rodders, not at all, am sure that's not what Radge meant (and I hope he'll forgive me for speaking on his behalf). But by and large, yourself aside, I haven't seen any detailed analysis as to what makes other locks better than Gray - the old classics of 'he can't scrum' and 'he doesn't hit rucks' have been roundly debunked by anyone that watched the 6Ns and the SH summer tour, so I think there's some frustration that we're short on detail? Hope that makes sense

Precisely what I meant, I have no problem you speaking for me As, you do it far better than I do!

I meant no insult to anyone by my comment. It's a known fact that a lot of people Guscott was a great example to make comments about Scotland and Scottish rugby without having a look. Asbo has said in the comment I have quoted that posters on here are throwing names around like Horwill or Whitelock (both cracking players) around saying Gray isn't better than them.

Fair enough if you can tell me why.

My point is Gray isn't getting the praise he deserves because Scotland for the most part are/have been rubbish.

Hope that explains my comment.

Rodder your post is great since you have stated why you think he isn't world class yet. I think some of your opinions are wrong, mainly because they are differant to mine.

These are opinions though and not facts. Thats why I like forum discussion rather than deliberat Wumming without explaination or justification. You have said why you don't think he is the best yet and I respect that opinion. Despite it being wrong

To debate some of your points.

IMO Scotland were fantastic at the breakdown in the 6N, not through Gray I might add but mostly through Ross Rennie who was described by one Welsh poster as "A walking infringement in an invisability cloak". Furthermore Scotland dominated every facet of forward play against England, Wales and France. Ireland played much better up front against us and don't even ask what went wrong against Italy.

Our lineout functioned brilliantly well against every team except Ireland too, Gray winning 11 lineouts and spoiling/disrupting 4 opposition lines.

Scotland's scrum was something of a conundrum in the 6N, nothing seemed to work and our frontrow was brutally exposed on more than one occasion. The scrum in the recent summer tour seemed much stronger, drawing a penalty try against Fiji and the winning Penalty against the Ozzys.

Does Gray have the ball skills of Matfield? I don't know...... ask Kearney.

Does he intimidate like Botha or Thorn? Probably not but not many locks do....

I guess he brings other skills to the table compared to Thorn, Botha, Matfield or POC I would say he is probably faster, maybe stronger and Bigger than those mentioned.... Matfield asside obviously. As time goes by and he gains experience though he will IMO be one of the best Locks in the world if he isn't already.

It's an interesting one: be a strong player in a weak squad or be another quality player in a great team. Who stands out more? I'm not so sure. I think a player of quality stands out in either side. You often hear, for example, how would Parisse perform in a quality team. But it's not just a matter of the individual. To be truly a great player, you need to be someone who combines well with the players around him. It's not just making the tackles, making the breaks, taking your lineout ball etc but how you work as a unit in your own particular area.

So for my mind, if you're going to judge Gray, it's not just how he operates in the lineout, in the loose or on defence as an individual but how he works as a unit in the tight five. Rugby is a team game and combinations are just as important. There are enough players in that Scotland pack who are standing out but they still have a while to go to working as an effective unit.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
I guess he brings other skills to the table compared to Thorn, Botha, Matfield or POC I would say he is probably faster, maybe stronger and Bigger than those mentioned.... Matfield asside obviously. As time goes by and he gains experience though he will IMO be one of the best Locks in the world if he isn't already.

I totally agree with that. But my point is that a handful of other locks currently bring things that he doesn't. Its hard to make like for like comparisons. For example in a HEC final would I rather have him or O'Connell calling the lineout, for me O'Connell because he has that experience. Gray will get that but he doesn't now. Stats just don't provide that context.

I understand your frustration that he doesn't get the accolades maybe he should because he plays in unfancied teams, but in fairness nearly everyone is tipping him for a Lions starting spot.

I feel the same about Stephen Ferris, that he doesn't get the PR he deserves because he plays for Ulster but many people just don't rate him as highly as I do or prefer other players which is fair enough.

N.B. comparing anyone to Gusgott is huge insult!

rodders wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
I guess he brings other skills to the table compared to Thorn, Botha, Matfield or POC I would say he is probably faster, maybe stronger and Bigger than those mentioned.... Matfield asside obviously. As time goes by and he gains experience though he will IMO be one of the best Locks in the world if he isn't already.

I totally agree with that. But my point is that a handful of other locks currently bring things that he doesn't. Its hard to make like for like comparisons. For example in a HEC final would I rather have him or O'Connell calling the lineout, for me O'Connell because he has that experience. Gray will get that but he doesn't now. Stats just don't provide that context.

I understand your frustration that he doesn't get the accolades maybe he should because he plays in unfancied teams, but in fairness nearly everyone is tipping him for a Lions starting spot.

I feel the same about Stephen Ferris, that he doesn't get the PR he deserves because he plays for Ulster but many people just don't rate him as highly as I do or prefer other players which is fair enough.

N.B. comparing anyone to Gusgott is huge insult!

These people need their heads examined, rodders, no question about it! Dan who?

Dan Cipriani ASBO.

Have to say Rodders - it really is refreshing to have someone argue their point coherently, well informed, grammatically correct and without resorting to calling people names!

Could do with more of that on here.

I think we are both kind of in agreement believe it or not - I don't think he's the best in the world, I couldn't tell you who the best lock in the world is, but I think he is a top quality International player and is currently the front runner for the Lions number 4 shirt. Plus, at only 22 he could become a global superstar.

Agreed?

rodders wrote:
I feel the same about Stephen Ferris, that he doesn't get the PR he deserves because he plays for Ulster but many people just don't rate him as highly as I do or prefer other players which is fair enough.

I agree 100%. When Scotland played Ireland in the 6N Ferris was utterly brilliant. He was also very good in the RWC. I would say comfortably world class when he is fully fit, but I guess thats half the battle with him, he is rarely fully fit.

In terms of best in the world only Kaino I think is a better blind side flanker.

For someone who sees him play for Ulster a bit too Ferris is I would say the best 6 in the NH. He does so much for Ireland and Ulster but doesn't get the plaudits as you say. It's not because he isn't good but its because to see what Ferris does well you have to be very observant. He made an insane ammount of tackles against Scotland and was IMO the main factor Ireland won the battle up front in the 6N.

Richie Gray isn't the best in the world at one particular thing - he isn't the best line-out specialist, he isn't the best at the donkey work, he might be one of the best carriers in open play, he isn't the best at the hard yards, he isn't the best at scrummaging. However, he is just great at all of these things. It isn't even a jack of all trades master of none situation, because he is class in every aspect of his game IMO. Add on top of that his freakish mobility for his size. I think he is the complete all rounder, which is why I would say he is one of the best second rows in the world.

Damn it, I hate it when a non-Scot talking on Scottish matters is simply more coherent

RDW_Scotland wrote:Have to say Rodders - it really is refreshing to have someone argue their point coherently, well informed, grammatically correct and without resorting to calling people names!

Ok lets not exaggerate here....

And yes agreed on your second paragraph

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:I don't think Grey is anywhere near world class if i'm honest. Meant to be a beast in the scrum , carrys like a horse and is decent banker ball at the lineout but so are Horwill , Whitelock , O'Connell , Wyn Jones and Albacete who are all better players than he is.

Driver, can you explain why pls?

I can explain and will , Grey has no outstanding attribute in his game to suggest to me that he is better than any of the players i have mentioned. He comes across as a bit of a one trick pony but is pretty good at that trick but at the same time not the best.

What is his one trick? I think he is more balanced than any of those guys, with more pace/mobility to go with it.

Which trick is that? I listed his credentials from the recent 6Ns, so take your pick - he was top or 2nd in them all!

Perhaps one trick pony was a bit of a poor selection of words , i meant one outstanding attribute which is his ball carrying.

Do you not think that his stats are a bit iffy given that Scotland will look to him to carry the most and throw to him the most at the lineout because he is there best player at it?

I think Richie is awesome and will be the best about for a long time.

When I watch him he lacks a few basic lock skills to be regarded as the best.

Rucking...it's not often I see Gray smashing into a ruck or bullying opposition, he may not quite fancy the dirty work but it's essential as a top lock (see Thorn, Bakkies).

His carrying in the loose is unparalleled but work in the tight needs work.

Also his scrummaging needs work, his side always seems to suffer yet is corrected when he's replaced.

Driver - RIP 606 wrote:Perhaps one trick pony was a bit of a poor selection of words , i meant one outstanding attribute which is his ball carrying.

Do you not think that his stats are a bit iffy given that Scotland will look to him to carry the most and throw to him the most at the lineout because he is there best player at it?

Not really. Scotland are fortunate to have a fair few carriers in the pack - Denton, Rennie, Ford, etc. As to lineout time, I don't think he is a star on his own lineout ball for Scotland, hence he jumps at 2 and not 4, but his disruption of oppo ball from there is exceptional - if his lifters throw him up, he's a helluva height to get over