Richie Gray, best lock in the world?

First topic message reminder :

You'll have to allow me to indulge in this one for a moment, after being involved in a cracking debate on another thread I got looking up some stats on Richie Gray. Now us Scots don't have a lot to be optimistic about at the moment, after another dismal 6N we do have some glimmers of light.

The biggest glimmer, litteraly has to be Richie Gray.

6ft 9 and 19st 12 he is a monster of a man. In the 6N thusfar he has these impressive statistics :

Meters Carried = 89
Clean breaks = 2
Defenders Beaten = 3
Tackles made = 15
Tackles Missed = 0
Lineouts Won = 11
Opposition Linouts spoiled / won = 4


All well and good, however take into account the other fantastic players in the 6N thusfar. Gray has made more clean breaks and carried the ball further than Jamie Roberts or George North and beaten more defenders than Roberts too.

His defensive record is phenomenal too winning or spoiling 4 opposition lineouts and makeing 15 tackles and missing none.

So, is he the best lock in the world? It has to be said even without my navy blue tinted glasses on I'm struggling to think of a better lock playing at the moment. Happy to hear from other poster as to their suggestions for the accolade of best lock in the world.

Oh and he's only 22.

Gibson wrote:Kia,
I think 60-0 says more than these Irish lads could say.

1 swallow doesn't make a summer Gibbo. Players careers can't be defined on 1 60-0 defeat any more than the Australia game 11 months earlier.

It's all just part of a bigger canvas. That was just one more game, no more or less significant than the one a week earler.

Ritchie McCaw doesn't get beat at the breakdown by non world class players, Kurtley Beal doesn't get beat in the air by non world class players, Will Genia doesn't get picked up and driven 5 metres backwards by non World class players.

These guys are world class, the problem is we don't have enough of them and in too many positions we don't have any at all.

They dont do it often enough Rodders. Those Kiwis, Aussies and Saffers, do it week-in, week-out. That's what defines true WC. Once in a blue moon, does not.

As I said before, WC is badly overused. Specially in the NH.

We need to get real here. That's our problem. We dream too much.

Time for a touch of reality. Not one of those Irish players would make any of those SH teams imo. I think that says it all.

Exceptions may be Healy, Kearney & in the future - Sexton.

So it seems someone may agree with me....... good on ya Gibbo.

I just think, we have to stop dreaming. Only then, will we match our high expectations with reality. I've seen this happen for over 40 years now.

Its not a blip. It just is. It hasnt changed a jot.

We could however, be a WC Unit. Under the right coaching team. We need to use our strengths and not play on our weakenesses. We cant match the Kiwis or Saffers with power and physicality. And we never will either. Its not in our makeup. So, we have to run round them. Play a smarter, faster, ball-in-hand, offloading game. Like the Aussies. They should be our template.

OP, sorry for the detour man.
Us Paddies just cant help oursel.

I think Richie G, really has the raw skillset, to be the best in the World. For what its worth. How long is his contract at Sale?

Gibson wrote:They dont do it often enough Rodders. Those Kiwis, Aussies and Saffers, do it week-in, week-out. That's what defines true WC. Once in a blue moon, does not.

As I said before, WC is badly overused. Specially in the NH.

We need to get real here. That's our problem. We dream too much.

Time for a touch of reality. Not one of those Irish players would make any of those SH teams imo. I think that says it all.

Exceptions may be Healy, Kearney & in the future - Sexton.

OK, where to start. I agree that they don't do it enough, I've spoke about that in depth elsewhere - mentally and physically we aren't up to scratch over here, the reasons I'm not debating here.

Very few Irish players would make the NZ team. Some would certainly make other teams, no question about it.

There's too many weak links in the Irish chain - front row, midfield...maybe wing and second row - where we clearly aren't world class and as such we will lose games, especially when we are missing are better players.

None of that changes the view that in my eyes that we have 5, 6, 7, 8 World class players..in the same way that Parisse picking up a wooden spoon every other season doesn't stop him being world class in my eyes.

The top sides often have 20+ WC players, in NZs case far more...in fact they can export World class players they have so many.

You are applying the failings of the system to the individuals, attributing the collective fault to the individual components in an even spread, which is wrong imo.

Yes we have some average players, maybe some mediocre ones but we also have some very good ones and some World class ones too. I have zero doubt about it.

Gibson wrote:OP, sorry for the detour man.
Us Paddies just cant help oursel.

I think Richie G, really has the raw skillset, to be the best in the World. For what its worth. How long is his contract at Sale?

I think it's just 2 years, Gib - who knows, after that I could see him heading to Super rugby, a top T14 club, or a big HC club (Leinster/Munster), before heading back to the Weegies

We don't need him in Munster, we have enough locks as it is, too many to shake a stick at. Sure there's guys like Nagle who put in a MOTM performance agaisnt OZ who struggled for gametime when fit.

Thomond wrote:We don't need him in Munster, we have enough locks as it is, too many to shake a stick at. Sure there's guys like Nagle who put in a MOTM performance agaisnt OZ who struggled for gametime when fit.

But Gray and Nagle don't really compare, T?

Well we don't really know that as Nagle didn't get gametime as we have too many locks. We had 4 international locks with around 200 caps between the lot of them last year, that's insane. Nagle won't be as good as Gray I'd say but he can be avery solid guy. We don't need Gray if we're going for an NIQ we need other positions sorted first. We should have exchanged a second row for a backrow with Leinster really.

For the record I believe Gray is World class.... at least the argument for this is building.

Thomond wrote:Well we don't really know that as Nagle didn't get gametime as we have too many locks. We had 4 international locks with around 200 caps between the lot of them last year, that's insane. Nagle won't be as good as Gray I'd say but he can be avery solid guy. We don't need Gray if we're going for an NIQ we need other positions sorted first. We should have exchanged a second row for a backrow with Leinster really.

Hmm, I think we can be fairly sure

Yeah, you're right and I eluded that below. Don't pick certain bits out, read the whole thing!

Ah well, makes a nice change to have a Scottish thread hijacked by an Irish discussion on how many of their players are world class instead of a Welsh one!

Usually in the Welsh one it is 1-15 are world class!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Gibson wrote:OP, sorry for the detour man.
Us Paddies just cant help oursel.

I think Richie G, really has the raw skillset, to be the best in the World. For what its worth. How long is his contract at Sale?

I think it's just 2 years, Gib - who knows, after that I could see him heading to Super rugby, a top T14 club, or a big HC club (Leinster/Munster), before heading back to the Weegies

Cheers As.
Leinster should break the bank for him, when his contract is up. I wanted him bad(not in a sexual way), before I knew he'd signed for Sale. Sure he'll come to us when he's starving for silverware...

He'd look great in a Blue jersey. Leinster Blue that is.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Ah well, makes a nice change to have a Scottish thread hijacked by an Irish discussion on how many of their players are world class instead of a Welsh one!

Usually in the Welsh one it is 1-15 are world class!

.... It was Thomonds fault!.... ....

No one likes a rat Rodders.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You're tough to please! Maybe results going against Ireland have diminished your view of your players. I can see that. Better to think that way than to say you have world class depth across the field and on your day...

Not saying that all of their fans think that way but I find it refreshing to see the term world class not thrown around willy-nilly.

You're not the only person to think that RDW. But are we not doing the same here with Gray? I have been just as impressed with Denton and Rennie in their first few appearances for Scotland. But their positions have a bit more strength in world rugby. Lock seems to have plenty of potential but not much in the way of standout world class with a lot of retirements of big stars. Is this why Gray is being mentioned instead of the others? Certainly Gray is one to be excited about either having in your squad or watching as a neutral his potential grow. But it's early days yet. Let's not jump the gun. I tend to agree with Gibson's criteria of making a name for yourself over a long period as consistently good. A rookie like Gray is too green around the ears to talk about being world class.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You're tough to please! Maybe results going against Ireland have diminished your view of your players. I can see that. Better to think that way than to say you have world class depth across the field and on your day...

Not saying that all of their fans think that way but I find it refreshing to see the term world class not thrown around willy-nilly.

You're not the only person to think that RDW. But are we not doing the same here with Gray? I have been just as impressed with Denton and Rennie in their first few appearances for Scotland. But their positions have a bit more strength in world rugby. Lock seems to have plenty of potential but not much in the way of standout world class with a lot of retirements of big stars. Is this why Gray is being mentioned instead of the others? Certainly Gray is one to be excited about either having in your squad or watching as a neutral his potential grow. But it's early days yet. Let's not jump the gun. I tend to agree with Gibson's criteria of making a name for yourself over a long period as consistently good. A rookie like Gray is too green around the ears to talk about being world class.

What have I done??

RDW_Scotland wrote:Ah well, makes a nice change to have a Scottish thread hijacked by an Irish discussion on how many of their players are world class instead of a Welsh one!

Usually in the Welsh one it is 1-15 are world class!

I was commenting on your comment. We share the same opinion on some fans' depiction of their team as world class across the park.

But my other point was are we not doing the same here with Gray? He's a great player who can only get better. Why the need to put a label on him. Why not just be thankful he's in the Scottish squad and can be a proud servant of Scottish rugby for some time.

Ah - you copied the wrong quote!

I just think Scottish fans are getting their backs up because we have to put up with other nations harping on about how world class all their players are, and as soon as someone comes along from Scotland who really is a standout player, and could be judged as world class in some people's opinions, all the other nations are quick to tell us that he isn't world class!

I know what you`re saying. But if you are willing to dismiss some of theirs then I guess it's inevitable you're going to have some of your own dismissed. I think at the end of the day results are the best bragging rights. Kiwi posters were told NZ had achieved nothing because World Cups were all that mattered. Wales don't like being reminded of their lack of success in the SH. Irish posters do a fine enough job dismissing their own team. England just hope they're back on track after a disappointing match and Australia and SA want to be remembered more for bigger honours than Super rugby or 3N. I'd say Scottish posters would settle for a team of journeymen but encouraging results than having a few world class players. We all want what we haven't been getting and just like a lonely single man we don't like being reminded of what we haven't been getting.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Ah - you copied the wrong quote!

I just think Scottish fans are getting their backs up because we have to put up with other nations harping on about how world class all their players are, and as soon as someone comes along from Scotland who really is a standout player, and could be judged as world class in some people's opinions, all the other nations are quick to tell us that he isn't world class!

Yeah RDW. Its a kettle and pot situation. Well, with Gray, Denton, Hogg, Ford and Rennie, to name a few, looking like Lions, you can righteously tell em all to feic off now.



And dont forget Wee Ally McVisser. PRO12 top try-scorer, for 3 seasons running.

The easy way to sort out the arguement is to name 2 locks who are currently better than Grey!

You'll struggle to name them with an open minded neutral point of view. POC would have been considered but for injury and I think his best days are behind him now (just an opinion)

Thorn would be the other choice perhaps.

It is really hard to compare forwards as they all do so many different things form each other. Gray stands out for his runs and line breaks. The fact that he is massive makes you notice this! But you don;t see the different "skills" when looking at things like scrums, or defense.

This is why I love rugby. Everyone has different skills and everyone had different opinions on these skills.

Some say Tim Visser is great for the tries he scores. Some say he is not that good for the tries he lets in!

Personally I think Grey is one of the top 3 (at least) locks in the world right now (and has been consistantly for 2 years now) The better news is that he will only get better as he grows (in a rugby way, not more inches, ouch!!!!)

Gray will only become World Class when people stop spelling his name 'Grey'. Come on, together we can get him there!

Seriously though, he's a class act. Maybe not the best in the world quite yet, but at his age, he's got it well within himself to get there. He's got stuff to work on but who hasn't at that age. I'd say he's currently one of the more 'stuck-on' choices for the Lions at the mo.

I think he gets plenty of (deserved) plaudits to be honest. His game (plus the blonde mop and his size) means he tends to stand out anyway.

Scotlands talent pool seems to be at odds with their results, and performances (bar the summer tour and AI results).

I think if there is scepticism about some of the Scottish players it is in part down to the fact that Scotland didn't get out of their RWC pool and were 6N wooden spooners. On that basis there is some justification.

That said when you look at some of the players available: Denton, Beattie, Gray, Hines, Rennie, Barclay, Cusiter, Lamont and now McVisser the quality of some of the scottish performances has been baffling.

I think Scotlands big achilles heel has been at half back, particularly at no 10...there hasn't been a top class 10 since Townsend and because of that theres been no direction or cohesion on the pitch.

As Scotland pick up more wins these players reputations will grow to match their ability and talent I think.

10 and centre rodders. Scotland's attacking achilles heel has been their downfall. Lamont at centre is proof enough of that.

They've been competitive enough in the pack. Where they've fallen short is their ability to score points in the backs. New players there provide more hope. But they're by no means the finished article either.

I concur Kia.

So Dan Parls wasn't a great out half? You learn something new every day....

Lets just say its not a great time to be a Connacht outside back.....

rodders wrote:Lets just say its not a great time to be a Connacht outside back.....

You won't need many, Rodders. On the other hand, you will need more ball boys/people in the car park to hoof the ball back when Parks has inexplicably ignored a 3-1 overlap, popped himself and then kicked the ball

Back on topic, though, I really like Grey but I do think his scrummaging maybe isn't as good as you would expect from someone who weighs the same as a family car.
He gets plaudits because he is very marketable as well as being a good player. Just think what Leo Cullen might have achieved if he didn't look like Rebecca Adlington without her make up on

A Scotsman spelling Richie Gray's name wrong??? Shocking!

Grey? Who is this Grey?

Does he have a bro called Gray?

Phhok me, there's two of em.

Just think what Leo Cullen might have achieved if he didn't look like Rebecca Adlington without her make up on

Quote of the month

InjuredYetAgain wrote:Back on topic, though, I really like Grey but I do think his scrummaging maybe isn't as good as you would expect from someone who weighs the same as a family car.
He gets plaudits because he is very marketable as well as being a good player. Just think what Leo Cullen might have achieved if he didn't look like Rebecca Adlington without her make up on

Im not normally sensitive about anything. I tend to like takin and receivin de pish. But. DONT diss MY Captain. Ever. He has captained us to 3 x HC's. Do you have a captain like that in store?

I dont phhokin tink so.

OK, in all fairness, he looks like Plug from the Bash St Kids. But, he's My Captain and I love him so.

Have you seen his missus? Google it and cry. Total and utter roide. BTW, Just for sayin that, I hope yer Mrs is a total & utter Ugg and gives you endless amounts of shoite, roysh.

Leo! Leo! Leo!

HC No 4 coming roysh up.

Not sure why you are taking the hump Gibbo? Rebecca Adlington is a fine looking lady.....

Rodders, dont show yer age. This is men talkin here. We'll be grand.

Aslongas, the Scots git apologises about My Leo's fisog, it will be grand.

Dont you just hate 2nd-div Paddies, with no respect for their betters?

Yes.

Gibson wrote:Rodders, dont show yer age. This is men talkin here. We'll be grand.

Aslongas, the Scots git apologises about My Leo's fisog, it will be grand.

Dont you just hate 2nd-div Paddies, with no respect for their betters?

Gibbo, I stand with my head bowed in disgrace and repentance (which makes eating my breakfast really difficult). Leo is a fine figure of a fella and if his wife is a scorcher, he must be hung like a rutting rhinoceros. I have dissed the pin up boy of Irish rugby and will, forever, feel bad about it as all the Irish dudes have now seen me for what I really am

Gibson wrote:Rodders, dont show yer age. This is men talkin here. We'll be grand.

Aslongas, the Scots git apologises about My Leo's fisog, it will be grand.

Dont you just hate 2nd-div Paddies, with no respect for their betters?

You called, sir?

InjuredYetAgain wrote:

Gibson wrote:Rodders, dont show yer age. This is men talkin here. We'll be grand.

Aslongas, the Scots git apologises about My Leo's fisog, it will be grand.

Dont you just hate 2nd-div Paddies, with no respect for their betters?

Gibbo, I stand with my head bowed in disgrace and repentance (which makes eating my breakfast really difficult). Leo is a fine figure of a fella and if his wife is a scorcher, he must be hung like a rutting rhinoceros. I have dissed the pin up boy of Irish rugby and will, forever, feel bad about it as all the Irish dudes have now seen me for what I really am

Injured,
I'll always respect you for that riposte babe. It was well wicked. I hope you meant it doll.

By de way, Richie Gray is a poor man's Devin Toner, with big hair.

InjuredYetAgain wrote:

Gibson wrote:Rodders, dont show yer age. This is men talkin here. We'll be grand.

Aslongas, the Scots git apologises about My Leo's fisog, it will be grand.

Dont you just hate 2nd-div Paddies, with no respect for their betters?

Gibbo, I stand with my head bowed in disgrace and repentance (which makes eating my breakfast really difficult). Leo is a fine figure of a fella and if his wife is a scorcher, he must be hung like a rutting rhinoceros. I have dissed the pin up boy of Irish rugby and will, forever, feel bad about it as all the Irish dudes have now seen me for what I really am

Coward!

Now Glas, the man is Scottish. He doesn't Welsh. In all fairness.

He's one of a kind then

Thomond wrote:So Dan Parls wasn't a great out half? You learn something new every day....

Dan Parls is the biz. If only he was a Jock. The 6-N wouldnt be able for him & Dickie Grey.