Weight Stipulations and Manny

First topic message reminder :

tunes666 wrote:Pac Man beat Cotto up, why is FMW not fighting him?.... same old crap...

No weight issues to "even" things out.

I cant think of a "World Title" fight where Mayweather has ordered a catchweight. He is a LEGITIMATE champion who has fought the relevant belt holders at their weight with no advantages. When he fought DLH, he didnt ask for 150lbs, he fought at 154lb like you are supposed to (bearing in mind its a TITLE fight and NOT and exhibition or comeback fight).

Pacquiao, in my eyes, does not qualify as a 154lb champ, unless he smashes up Cotto/Mayweather etc at the relevant weight. Beating a fighter on a comeback in Margarito , and for the WBC title, is an absolute joke.

But, lets not blame Paquiao for this because he would fight anyone at any weight. Lets blame Arum for this.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Absolutely not, we are not talking about other pounds on top of a couple but a mere 1lb it simply makes no difference.

It does make a difference. How many mere 1lb will it take to make a difference?

agree with AZ. The 1lb DOES indeed make the difference.

Boxtthis wrote:

azania wrote:The odd pound can make a huge difference. When you lose that odd pound, why not lose another odd pound. Boxers lose the odd pound to make weight. To ask them too lose the odd 2 pounds is a struggle and does affect performance and probably health.

I don't know how you can make that argument with any certainty. It's so dependent on the individual boxer's situation. I'd say that in the vast majority of cases an extra pound or two would not have a great deal of difference. It would only be a big deal for a fighter that had a great deal of trouble making a particular weight class. I don't think, at the time, that Cotto had, in professional boxing terms, a particularly hard time making the limit. It certainly wouldn't have helped him having to cut those 2 pounds - and I'll agree that it's an unnecessary, somewhat laughable, and perhaps even a little bit cowardly stipulation enforced by Manny and his team - but I doubt it caused major risk to Cotto's health.

It wasn't said with absolute certainty. That's why I said "The odd pound can make a huge difference". Operative word being CAN.

I also didn't say it was a major risk to Cotto's health. I said that it was a risk. Seeing that boxing is a risk to life, coming in drained increases that risk. Its a simple fact.

The Galveston Giant wrote:He also could have refused to sign the contract like Floyd. Quite possibly this generations biggest talent and coward.

I can't argue with that. Over the last 2-3 years both have behaved in a way that's an affront to one of the central notions of world class sport i.e. the best challenging the best on a level playing field.

azania wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:

azania wrote:The odd pound can make a huge difference. When you lose that odd pound, why not lose another odd pound. Boxers lose the odd pound to make weight. To ask them too lose the odd 2 pounds is a struggle and does affect performance and probably health.

I don't know how you can make that argument with any certainty. It's so dependent on the individual boxer's situation. I'd say that in the vast majority of cases an extra pound or two would not have a great deal of difference. It would only be a big deal for a fighter that had a great deal of trouble making a particular weight class. I don't think, at the time, that Cotto had, in professional boxing terms, a particularly hard time making the limit. It certainly wouldn't have helped him having to cut those 2 pounds - and I'll agree that it's an unnecessary, somewhat laughable, and perhaps even a little bit cowardly stipulation enforced by Manny and his team - but I doubt it caused major risk to Cotto's health.

It wasn't said with absolute certainty. That's why I said "The odd pound can make a huge difference". Operative word being CAN.

I also didn't say it was a major risk to Cotto's health. I said that it was a risk. Seeing that boxing is a risk to life, coming in drained increases that risk. Its a simple fact.

Well, reading the rest of the thread, it certainly looks as if you're trying to make the case for that 2 pound weight cut being an important issue (rather than presenting it as being a possible issue). In my opinion, it would not have been particularly significant for Cotto to cut an extra two pounds. But, I will agree, these weight stipulations do make Manny look a bit silly, and the could potentially place further risk on opponents health. That said, boxers take a calculated risk themselves with their weight all the time. Any boxer that looks to cut weight is taking a risk of their own accord.

I think allowing Chavez Jr into the ring as a cruiserweight is just as dangerous as asking a fighter to cut an extra pound.

The Galveston Giant wrote:He also could have refused to sign the contract like Floyd. Quite possibly this generations biggest talent and coward.

Its not that easy. Boxers are often the last to know when to retire. Look at Ali, Holy and more recently RJJ. They should hang them up, but the money is a very enticing factor in Holy and RJJ continuing. Easy to say Cotto could have refused when there was $3m for 1lb.

Boxtthis wrote:

azania wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:

azania wrote:The odd pound can make a huge difference. When you lose that odd pound, why not lose another odd pound. Boxers lose the odd pound to make weight. To ask them too lose the odd 2 pounds is a struggle and does affect performance and probably health.

I don't know how you can make that argument with any certainty. It's so dependent on the individual boxer's situation. I'd say that in the vast majority of cases an extra pound or two would not have a great deal of difference. It would only be a big deal for a fighter that had a great deal of trouble making a particular weight class. I don't think, at the time, that Cotto had, in professional boxing terms, a particularly hard time making the limit. It certainly wouldn't have helped him having to cut those 2 pounds - and I'll agree that it's an unnecessary, somewhat laughable, and perhaps even a little bit cowardly stipulation enforced by Manny and his team - but I doubt it caused major risk to Cotto's health.

It wasn't said with absolute certainty. That's why I said "The odd pound can make a huge difference". Operative word being CAN.

I also didn't say it was a major risk to Cotto's health. I said that it was a risk. Seeing that boxing is a risk to life, coming in drained increases that risk. Its a simple fact.

Well, reading the rest of the thread, it certainly looks as if you're trying to make the case for that 2 pound weight cut being an important issue (rather than presenting it as being a possible issue). In my opinion, it would not have been particularly significant for Cotto to cut an extra two pounds. But, I will agree, these weight stipulations do make Manny look a bit silly, and the could potentially place further risk on opponents health. That said, boxers take a calculated risk themselves with their weight all the time. Any boxer that looks to cut weight is taking a risk of their own accord.

It is an important in that is weakens the fighter who has to dut the weight. He will not be entering the fight in prime condition or as prime as he could have been. Health issues are also important wrt weight cutting.

azania wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:

azania wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:

azania wrote:The odd pound can make a huge difference. When you lose that odd pound, why not lose another odd pound. Boxers lose the odd pound to make weight. To ask them too lose the odd 2 pounds is a struggle and does affect performance and probably health.

I don't know how you can make that argument with any certainty. It's so dependent on the individual boxer's situation. I'd say that in the vast majority of cases an extra pound or two would not have a great deal of difference. It would only be a big deal for a fighter that had a great deal of trouble making a particular weight class. I don't think, at the time, that Cotto had, in professional boxing terms, a particularly hard time making the limit. It certainly wouldn't have helped him having to cut those 2 pounds - and I'll agree that it's an unnecessary, somewhat laughable, and perhaps even a little bit cowardly stipulation enforced by Manny and his team - but I doubt it caused major risk to Cotto's health.

It wasn't said with absolute certainty. That's why I said "The odd pound can make a huge difference". Operative word being CAN.

I also didn't say it was a major risk to Cotto's health. I said that it was a risk. Seeing that boxing is a risk to life, coming in drained increases that risk. Its a simple fact.

Well, reading the rest of the thread, it certainly looks as if you're trying to make the case for that 2 pound weight cut being an important issue (rather than presenting it as being a possible issue). In my opinion, it would not have been particularly significant for Cotto to cut an extra two pounds. But, I will agree, these weight stipulations do make Manny look a bit silly, and the could potentially place further risk on opponents health. That said, boxers take a calculated risk themselves with their weight all the time. Any boxer that looks to cut weight is taking a risk of their own accord.

It is an important in that is weakens the fighter who has to dut the weight. He will not be entering the fight in prime condition or as prime as he could have been. Health issues are also important wrt weight cutting.

That comment stands for any fighter that's cutting weight, whether that cut is to make a cw or a standard weight class. So the health issues are prominent in any instance where a fighter loses weight and dehydrates himself heavily - not just in cw fights. In some cases the fighter can do it with relative comfort. In others it may have had a detrimental effect. In terms of performance, if the effect is significant, then it's usually clear to see when a good fighter looks gassed and slow (like Oscar was). To my mind Cotto never looked particularly affected physically by the extra 2 pounds i.e. he didn't look weak, didn't gas, etc. As others have pointed out, he was 146 for his previous fight. The cut may well have affected his performance slightly, but it didn't appear to have a significant bearing on the fight outcome. Can you pour scorn on Manny and his team for placing the stipulations on him? Yes, it's not exactly the behaviour of a true champion. But, I wouldn't say Manny's stipulations endangered Cotto's health to a much greater degree than the numerous weight cuts that he, and many, many other boxers had put themselves through in the past (and will again in the future). To me, that's an unfair insinuation.

Just because you label something a "catchweight" doesnt change the basic principles of weight making. What are weight classes? Just arbitary weights with divisions slapped on them. It started off with one. Now we have 17. Fighters hitting a weight be it catchweight or official undergo the same procedure. If they over exert themselves or try to get down to an overly low limit they risk being drained. This doesnt change whether a fight is catchweight or regular. Oscar de la Hoya was far more drained at the official 147lb limit for his fight with Pacquiao than Cotto was at 145lb.

Secondly, is the principle behind weight classes. Essentially to segregate size differences and try to get fights between similarly sized opponents with little or no significant size advantages. Pacquiao is a smaller man than Cotto. A smaller fighter. The request for a catchweight was to compensate for the natural size advantage Cotto enjoyed over him. Was Pacquiao looking for an advantage? Yes he was. But first off he wasnt a true welter himself and secondly Cotto was much bigger than him. Pacquiao was coming up a few pounds, Cotto was coming down a few pounds to meet.

Thirdly, it was an agreement. Cotto was not forced to sign a contract. It was up to him to decide if making 145lb was reasonable. For all we know Pacquiao could have asked for the fight at 140lb, Cotto wanted 147lb and they agreed to a weight in between. Ultimately its Cotto responsibility to handle the weight whether he is trying to make 140lb, 145lb or 147lb. He had made 146lb for his previous fight, he never blamed the weight being a factor and he didnt appear to be drained. If he was, then its his problem.

The other thing I will say is in regards to the titles being on the line. In this aspect I think there is near universal agreement that titles should not be on the line for catchweights as its a contradiction. However personally the titles dont mean much to me anyway and it was the fight between to top fighters that sold it for me not the fact one of the numerous sanctioning bodies had put a title at stake.

Agreed Manos, the weight was negotiated when the fight was signed, Cotto didn't have to lose it overnight.

I also don't think the belts should be on the line for catchweight fights but do the hardcore really care about the belt, we care about the fighters not whats around the waist. Someone mentioned that TV execs could maybe put a stop to the whole belt fiasco but in my eyes they are as much to blame for the numerous titles.