Should the Irish Provinces slowly break away from the Nanny-State control of the IRFU?

I'm going to drop this grenade and wait for positive or negative reactions. I honestly believe, that the Provinces should be more independent financial institutions in future. I'm talking within 5 to 10 years. It could not happen sooner and be viable. The infrastructure to do so, is slowly being readied as we speak. At Munster, at Leinster and now - Ulster. Connacht - are another bag of spanners. They need help, for now - to be readied. The IRFU owe them that. For development fees alone.

I think the provinces should stand alone and the IRFU should slowly back off from completely controlling them. It will happen in the future anyway. It will become counter-productive business-wise and financially unsustainable. The top European clubs are looking to alter the rugby structure, as it stands - in the NH. The French and English oligarchs are plotting as we speak. We will not be immune from it and will either have to join the party or sink. Be proactive and in the game from the start. For once. Ulster's, Munster's and Leinster' s CEO's (Logan, Fitzgerald, and Dawson respectively) are no gobeens. They are way ahead of the game. Despite the IRFU.

The IRFU's continuing stranglehold, in controlling who we can and cannot bring in, or keep, and where they can play positionally - will backfire on them. If you think the inter-provincial bitching is bad on this site now, wait until that kicks in. And it will affect the provinces business decisions adveresly. I cant see the ambitious provincial CEO' s standing for that. It will cause in-fighting at the highest level and the IRFU will find it increasingly hard to arbitrate. They will be the bad guys. And it may cause bad inter-provincial blood. We dont need that.

Best leave the provinces to handle this. But. Restrict foreign players to 4 and no project players would help. Get them to agree to that. Shelve the mad Directive and cut out the temporary dross we have seen creep in. Give the provinces free-reign who they pick, with that constraint, for as long as is required, and in which position. Soften it. We will miss the likes of the Dougie Howlett's and Nacewa's. They have been crucial to both our success and have greatly enhanced the provinces they play for. They became an integral part of our provincial culture. To lose that, would be a crime.

The English model will change too. It has to. Their proportionally abysmal showing in the HC, when compared to the PRO12 teams for the last 10 years, will soon see to that. Watch out for Bruce Craig at Bath, as a standard-bearer for change in the English league. He is looking to be a power again in the HC. The Jeff wont be enough to satiate his ambitions. He is not investing millions in his club for nowt. He is a hugely successful businessman. Wide awake. He knows what' s coming. In fact - he is instigating it with others. Tigers are in this game. As are Sarries and Saints. Toulouse, Toulon, ASM and Stade, et al, are all big players – by wealth, infrastructure and by design.

To try and avoid, or at to at least partly circumvent this, the PRO12 must grow in credibility and financially. Enough to compare with the Jeff and the TOP14. Demand better sponsorship deals on the back of it. It is the only way. We must slowly decrease this IRFU player-protection gig. It is blatantly not working for our International team anyway. Is it? It helps us big-time in the HC. That is the key point here. The English and French power-houses will demand change in the HC qualifying structure before long. Enough disgruntled coaches and owners, have come out strong in the media already. They have had enough of the PRO12 being a socialist protection society for entry into the HC. I don’t blame them really. So we either change the structure of and our commitment to, the PRO12, or suffer the long-term consequences of it.

The IRFU should concentrate what the IRFU are failing at - developing the AIL and the lower leagues, helping Connacht develop, to stand on their own also. And better organising the International team and its coaching team. How do the Provinces make up the money lost from IRFU sponsorship I hear you all scream? What happens the fabled contracts? They must pay the provinces handsomely, from their pot, for their respective provincial players participation in the national squad. Compensate them for the loss of their assets during a rugby season. And lose the contracts. Let the Green Jersey be earned on a continually and closely monitored merit basis only. It' s business.

It wont be equitable. But tough love will improve the respective province's independence and lessen the need for foreigners, over time. They will have to produce more international class players of their own and not run to Mammy for help in buying in Johnny Foreigners. I.E. Don’t spend what you don’t have. I would have thought the Irish have learned that lesson well by now. Anyway, Leinster, Ulster & Munster are producing a prodigeous amount of talented indigenous youngsters as it is. So, why have they restricted us? Its dumb.

The 3 main provinces now have excellent established academies. Connacht U20 teams are growing in strength and the vast sums spent, on soon to be, temporary, blow-ins, should be invested there 1st. And always. But give us the freedom to run our own affairs. We know best, what is best for our individual provinces. The IRFU dont. It is another way of thinking about the whole deal. Just a different, mutually-beneficial, business-based, structure. All good things take time and Munster, Leinster and to a lesser extent - Ulster, are mostly there anyway. Just need to intensify it. And with the IRFU still having important input. They must not make decisions on their own and present us with a fait accompli to deal with. Not the way to do it. Consultatation 1st. Then, a mutually agreeable and beneficial decision.

In the context of future changes in NH club rugby, Ulster are smart in developing their own stadium and their own future income, in this protected, ring-fenced phase of Irish Rugby. As have Munster - when they pay off the IRFU for Thomond.

Ulster have laid down plans to build a World class stadium to help fund their independence. Its done. Its happening. It is UK funded. Smart move Logan. And the fans are there to fill it.

Exactly the same for Munster, who are ahead of the rest - in this facet. Thomond, is magnificent. A shining credit to the Munster board and their fans who kicked it all off over the years. They still fill it. They always will. It's in their blood. Just need to pay off the IRFU loan for it now.

Leinster , without their own ground, are still lucky in that we have a good bedding at the RDS. Mick Dawson is talking of redeveloping the RDS further. The Angelsea Stand to be knocked down and rebuilt. A stand to match Tigers Caterpillar Stand would be magnificent. If, as proposed, Leinster invest in this, in conjunction with the RDS owners - it gives them a stronger base to negotiate rent and a long-term future there.

The RDS has long been the most used venue in Ireland. For rock-concerts, the Horse Show, lesser Ireland games and a host of other functions. Personally, have always preferred Donnybrook as a 25,000/30,000 seater option. Leinster tried. Spent a fortune on a new stand. And a quality structure. But the D4's Tennis & Croquet clubs and the influential surrounding residents have stymied it. It may still be a valid option, now that Ireland is broke and even D4's are looking for easy money and a way out. It should still be considered when they put in the proposal for the new stand at the RDS. Make them a now or never offer. Nothing to lose and all to gain.

For the big HC & PRO12 games (Now Munster, soon to be Ulster also there), we always have nearby access to Lansdowne Road. It comes with the territory of being the Capital and the demographic advantage that gives us. And it is only now we are exploiting it to the full. For this reason - Leinster will always be safe. Bit much there on Leinster. But bless us, we dont own our own ground.

Connacht need a guru to change their fortunes in this period, or they will die. Things are happening there, slowly. The IRFU, to their credit, have pledged them 3 years of support and the shekels to help sort them out. But, more must be done. And soon.

As I said before, change is coming. And we must be ready for it. Whatever format it comes in - it will come. If clubs, provinces and regions are not prepared for it, they will sink. Think the English Premiership and the demise of great clubs in big cities all over England, from the old 1st Division - which is now the 2nd-rate Championship. Rugby Union is a fast-growing, Worldwide business and those who are not aware of the business opportunities involved in it, and plan for it accordingly - will suffer.

Id hate to see it happen for a lot of reasons, but it may be for the best. The best run clubs will rise to the top anyway. For the Paddies, enough mothering and constant bleating on about who gets what from the IRFU table. Lets bitch on our own terms. Time to grow up in our own right, stand on our own 2 feet and leave home.

Besides, we know where Mammie lives, if and when we need her. She'll always be our Ma.

N.B. I have not addressed the effects of this for the Welsh Regions, the 2 x Scottish clubs or the Italians. Not to mention the knock-on effect for their International sides. That is their business to do so. But, they need to get their respective arses in gear. And quick.

Sorry Gibson haven't read your whole post but the short answer is no because we will end up in the pickle Wales are in with all our top players heading overseas.

We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water just because the National team isn't performing to expectations.

One thing I would like to see is the IRFU central contracts scrapped. The IRFU should just give the provinces a set budget to spend on contracts as they see fit and adhereing to the IQ quotas.

In my opinion the central contracts creates a 'team Ireland' were certain players are retained when they aren't performing so that the IRFU get value for money for their investments.

Well Rodders, I think you should read it. It puts it it all in context. In the real World. And not the insular World that is Irish Rugby at present.

But, fair points and I expect more of them.

roddersm wrote:Sorry Gibson haven't read your whole post but the short answer is no because we will end up in the pickle Wales are in with all our top players heading overseas.

Exactly. Your central contracts and Provincial history is keeping your top players in Ireland for the forseeable future. French club rugby is well on its way to ruining the game and neither of us can ever match their spending power anyway. The best we can do is band together and fight off those vultures for the sake of rugby.

Up the Celts.

Rodders, you are missing Gib's central point - the clubs will restructure club competition regardless and the IRFU are nowhere on this is the fear

Morgannwg wrote:

roddersm wrote:Sorry Gibson haven't read your whole post but the short answer is no because we will end up in the pickle Wales are in with all our top players heading overseas.

Exactly. Your central contracts and Provincial history is keeping your top players in Ireland for the forseeable future. French club rugby is well on its way to ruining the game and niether of us will ever match their spending power anyway. The best we can do is band together and fight off those vultures for the sake of rugby.

Up the Celts.

But Morgan,
Has it hindered Wales as a National team? Look at Phillips as an example. I think not. With respect, I want more logical input on this. Not just bland statements.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Rodders, you are missing Gib's central point - the clubs will restructure club competition regardless and the IRFU are nowhere on this is the fear

He's got it in one.

The concept of the 'Regions' was poorly executed albeit the best option for our club rugby. Gatland is the only reason our national team are playing well. The players play far better for Wales than their club sides. Warbs was 2nd to SOB in the Cardiff/Leinster game.

My statement did seem the logical, to me . I am popping in inbetween an essay though so refrained from doing a thorough analysis of what you have said. Don't mean to be a geek but what is changing in the club structure?

*EDIT - no it has not hindered Phillips. But it is probably the reason Mitchell never makes the squad when he should be Jones' deputy. The player pool is small but it is growing, the overseas club players could be transitioned out in the next 3-4 years.

Well Gibson your main person counting down the days til an Irish province can put out a full Irish team and win the HC and if the IRFU were to cut the strings to the provinces so to speak i think more foreigners would come to play in these teams. If they have the money to afford big international names then they will sign them because they will want the best squad possible. if they dont have the money for foreign signings then i dont think they would have the money to retain the biggest irish players either.

The Irish system is working. If you compare our injury record to that of Wales we come off far better. How many international games did Hayes miss? or O'Gara or POC (last year aside) or BOD this year aside? Just because currently our international team is underperforming doesnt mean the whole system is flawed.

If this european restructering of the leagues does come into fruition whats stopping the provinces still been funded by the IRFU?

roddersm wrote:One thing I would like to see is the IRFU central contracts scrapped. The IRFU should just give the provinces a set budget to spend on contracts as they see fit and adhereing to the IQ quotas.

That's a good point actually.

Gibson, Ireland's system is normally seen as the best one in Europe, so I'm not really sold on changing it. I'm really sure why you want it changed actually.

You think that there's gonna be some super euro league created in a about a decade or so? I do. And I think Munster and leinster at the least, but probably Ulster too, are perfectly situated to be invited to join this thing. They're big rugby brands now. Famous for success on the field and passionate support. They'd be an asset to any euro league.

If a euro league happens, then it will be because it's worth more money to the teams involved. So why couldn't the Irish provinces continue with the same model but receive even more money for their efforts?

By the way, the one thing I do agree with is the IRFU having to much say on the players protection. Limiting their game time drastically. It's bad for the Pro 12's image. It's not giving us any benefit whatsoever as far as I can tell. And according to some players, it's actually contributing to their inconsistency. The IRFU have to look at this.

However I don't see why the provinces should become separate entities, when they are doing really well as branches of the IRFU.

Morgan,
Sorry if I came across badly there. I value your input bud.

I have lots to back it up. Just wanted to be asked the questions 1st.

Here's a start.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/club/8976041/Bath-owner-Bruce-Craig-insists-rugby-calendar-must-divide-into-club-and-international-competition-time.html

This guy is mixing with the top French club-owners. He lives in France. They want to take on the IRB and the national bodies 1st. Achieve that and the rest of the top European clubs will follow.

During the France v Ireland debacle a few weeks back, who ran the re-scheduling show? The IRB? The 6-N? Nope. The French club game. They initiallly asked for it to be played in June FFS! They were just showing their power over the FFR. It was a chess move. A bluff. So the FFR and IRFU caved in to 4 games in a row, instead of giving what both countries really wanted and what would have suited both squads. A game the week after.

Got to read betweeen the bold lines.

Gibson, roysh .

I am in agreement with Mr Craig in playing the domestic season before the international one.

With the winters getting worse I would also like to see the game be played during the summer (the best matchday out I have had was during the month of June). Perhaps the domestic could start in March, followed by the 6 Nations then some home and away games Versus the SH in October/November. Just a poorly thought up concept btw.

An excellent post Gibson and well thought out.

We will discuss this over pints in a couple of weeks but I can see the umbilical cord being cut already.

Logan has a vision. As I'm sure does the CEO's from Munster and Leinster and to realise that vision I believe he has already put the wheels in motion to go it alone.

There will be club competition in Europe similar to Super 15 within five to ten years in my opinion. That could well be anything from 12 to 18 clubs from across the major European Rugby playing nations.
I believe if this is to be successful then the Provinces cannot afford to be constrained by the IRFU.

But why do you think the provinces have to be completely independent entities to do well in a reformed club rugby calender? For one thing it would end your hopes of an all Irish Leinster team. Any completely independent team will buy foreigners for short term gain. What's to stop an independent and successful Leinster from turning into another Toulon?

We can win the HEC under the current model. We can win any reformed setup with the same model.

I half agree with you though. The IRFU should be a bit more hands off. Let the provinces do their thing. Stop imposing hair brained schemes.

It seems to me that the people running the provinces are far more competent and sensible than the people running the IRFU, so I see where you're coming from. But separating the provinces completely from the IRFU would be disastrous in my opinion. We only have 4 teams. They have to work for the benefit of the test team. If they were independent they simply wouldn't. Why should they?

Feckess, I am not advocating it. Not wholey. It is just that people are not aware that the IRFU dont have the power to stop it. Just bargain with it. The FFR have already caved in. And they are slightly more powerful than us.

Id love the status to remain the quo. It has proven to be a perfect working model for Ireland. And Italy. No doubt. But, it cant last.

We cant live in a bubble. No matter how nice that bubble is.

But one thing I DO advocate. Lose the Contracts. Let it be on carefully monitored merit alone. It is holding us back in so many respects.

Indeed I also have to disagree for the most part. I do think that the provinces need to - and will - become more independent given time so I'm not completely against your sentiment.

I agree with Rodders that central contracts need to be reviewed. Doing away with them completely would be no harm and I believe that the IRFU are working towards reducing the number of these over the coming years.

I would have big issues with the 4 provinces going on their own completely. Firstly, Connacht would die. You could give them all the guru's you want, you could throw in Gandhi and Buddha, it still would solve the problem. Connacht has a population of approximately 500k and suffering from mass emigration - it could never support itself without outside help.

I can't speak for Ulster - they have a population of approx 2m but how much of that can they really target. Maybe some of the Ulster posters could enlighten me (without wanting to get political here) as to the support for Ulster rugby - is it universal throughout the province? Are there those who - for political reasons- don't support Ulster, if the answer is no then they could survive on their own.

Munster, although having a slightly smaller population would be in a similar situation to that of Ulster.

Leinster would no doubt survive, I'd imagine they could play half their matches at the aviva if the opposition was sufficient - having 1.5m people within a hop and skip of the stadium will do that.

The thing is - although the 3 would survive - that is all they would do. The population base of Ireland dictates that negotiating big TV deals will always be an issue. Indeed Wales and Scotland having similar populations have similar issues - not to mention different networks in different regions meaning the TV rights is made up of a number of small pools rather than 1 big one. But the population across the competing nations is small. Before anyone brings up Italy - if the rabo takes off in Italy and Trviso and Arioni start getting millions of viewers the Irish provinces will see very little of that cash.

Ireland cannot compete with the huge target audiences in England and France - not to mention the French sugar daddy's. The synergies provided to all the provinces by operating under the one umbrella are what make the current model successful for the provinces. Their combined bargaining power is what makes them strong - take it away and they will all suffer.

Sure, things can and will change but unless you have something to sell - for all professional sports enterprises the thing they are selling is their fans, the harsh truth is that this is a numbers game and a numbers game only. For which each province on their own just does not have the numbers.

The AIL is an issue - but the advent of professionalism has taken all the top players from the AIL clubs. For many AIL clubs their support base has switched to supporting the provinces primarily with the AIL team second. This is the fault of professionalism, there maybe things that the IRFU could have done differently but the overall result would not have changed much - again it comes back to limited populations and a traditional minority of rugby strongholds.
But rugby is growing. New clubs are popping up and refreshingly, quite a few of these are in areas renowned for GAA. This is a good thing. But this was, more than anything else, built on successful provinces. The success of Munster has been a huge catalyst for the growth of playing numbers in the province - if they were consistently failing to get out of their group in the HC I doubt this would have happened.

Its an interesting topic though - fair play for bringing it up

Golden wrote:Well Gibson your main person counting down the days til an Irish province can put out a full Irish team and win the HC and if the IRFU were to cut the strings to the provinces so to speak i think more foreigners would come to play in these teams. If they have the money to afford big international names then they will sign them because they will want the best squad possible. if they dont have the money for foreign signings then i dont think they would have the money to retain the biggest irish players either.

The Irish system is working. If you compare our injury record to that of Wales we come off far better. How many international games did Hayes miss? or O'Gara or POC (last year aside) or BOD this year aside? Just because currently our international team is underperforming doesnt mean the whole system is flawed.

If this european restructering of the leagues does come into fruition whats stopping the provinces still been funded by the IRFU?

Golden, I have dreamed of that since the HC started. Munster & Ulster fans too. Time is running out on it fast. Unless we all (the 4 nations involved) - start taking the PRO12 seriously, to help protect it. And our clubs/provinces. The IRFU are directly preventing that by player protection.

Dont shoot the messenger.

And on the shift of power in the European leagues question, they(the IRFU), wont be able to compete financially. Unless, we pull in more money from the PRO12. Each province must look for finance on top of the IRFU financial support.

It has been nice while it lasted. Gave us a great boost and the IRFU should be commended for leading the way. But, as Rava points out, they dont need to control the provinces with such a strong grip anymore. They need to loosen it slowly. Not tighten it more. Or it will restrict us over time.

I said in the 1st sentence that I believe this will take 5/10 years. It wont happen in 2/3 years. So, no need to panic. We have time to adjust and preserve and protect what we really need to. Being aware of that, is the 1st step in doing so. They will eventually want the PRO12 to sucumb to a meritocracy rather than national proportional representation in qualifying for the HC. That' s for sure.

I predict the Italians having a big part to play in this when it comes. That's why I love it when Treviso or their international side do well. 60 million on our side - is advertising power for the PRO12. We all need the Italians to thrive. For Aironi see Connacht. Seeing 5 PRO12 teams in the HC QF's vs the might of England & France, lights me up. Specially Edinburgh. But, in the not too distant furture, it would be a miracle. Unless we do something now.

The Top 14 is going to implode within the next five years.

Relegation will not last in the English Premiership.

Excellent post Red Light. I'll try address it tomorow. Thanks.

P.S. I brought up the Contracts being a limiter in my article. Need to clarify that.

As for combined bargaining power. That's what Im on about. Its only only hope against succumbing to a Euro S15. The more interest the PRO12 gets the better.

Feckless,
I dont really want it. But in reality, it is something we need to prepare for. The IRFU will always have some input and rule over the provinces. But, as a famous man once said(Portnoy) we are franchises. 1 or 2 who are well able to take on Europe - as it stands.

Do we continue to subsidise each other or go it alone? Or a bit of both? Either way, we need far more autonomy over our own respective affairs and not be overly limited by the IRFU. That much I cant concede in this scenario.

Its business. It will involve corporations and sugar-daddies as it gets more sexshy. We need to prepare for that or lose out.

Gibson wrote:
Its business. It will involve corporations and sugar-daddies as it gets more sexshy. We need to prepare for that or lose out.

That's the nightmare scenario for me. I want to see home grown teams win the trophies. I want the club/province that produces the best players to win the glory for their own people. I want to see the French clubs reigned in before they ruin the game with money. I don't want to see everybody join them in the unsustainable spending spree. I want to see local Treviso boys beat a touring All Blacks team, and the people of the region revel in the glory of it for decades.

What does it even mean if Man City win the League this year? It means the Arab oil billionaire wasted more of his money on spoilt millionaires than the Russian oil billionaire this year. It's pretty much meaningless to me. (Why aren't the oil billionaire's using these vast sums of money to build hospitals and sponsor education in their native countries anyway? Wouldn't that be more fulfilling? That's a different & non-rugby topic, I know)

My disillusionment with top flight soccer coincided with my discovery of rugby. I really don't want rugby to go down the same money-dominated path. The American sports are the final destination once you take that route. And I won't be interested in supporting a team called the Berlin Leinsters, with a squad of Kiwi's and South Africans.

A Pan European league or SuperHC will be that - a league of superteams in Europe. There will be no sense of borders and no economic or dogmatic need to sustain the present models that mostly French players play for French clubs, English players play for English clubs, Irish players play for Provinces and so on.

Fine many will say. That's what we want. A common competition whereby players professionally shift around from club to Province to Region without any sanctions imposed by any of the national Unions that control International sides. A league where clubs/Provinces rise or fall based on the results they achieve and the money they can amass from TV rights, attendances, sponsorship, product endorsement etc, etc.

So I assume the new way will also mean that fussy pay caps are also done away with so that real sugardaddies with real serious bucks can inject those bucks to extract real returns and therefore say 'Yes - I've got a viable business here'.

So far so good. Great European sides clashing with each other on a yearly basis - massive home and away crowds on a regular basis - high quality rugby played by the very best players Europe has to offer - big SH superstar signings playing for your local club/Province - Leinster shirts being sold in specialised Leinster shops in Sydney and Tokyo.

Only problem I see is that if the Provinces tell the IRFU to go shove itself and enter this brave new world being plotted by the money men in Top14 and AP with open arms, that begins the rapid decent of Provinces and the implosion of any Irish International aspirations for this century.

I don't think the Provinces would survive and I don't see how any business plan could see them survive in a marketplace that would attract money men to the largest population centres, lavish unequal amounts of money on clubs in those centres, attract the best players to those clubs based on high salaries, based on high density populations, based on more bums on seats and buying shirts, based on the sponsorship potential of those bums on seats in high density population areas in Europe. Long sentence but designed to be so to show the inevitable circular pattern that would develop.

In a totally self regulated club/Province/region Europe, money and talent would be sucked into the same areas where money and talent is sucked into in professional football - England prominently and next up France. And I believe this is why English and French money men are ready to stand up to the IRB and the national Unions. They see a hegemony developing with more freedoms and they see them reaping the profits, the players, the new history, the fans and the glory.

What they want is to see Irish or Welsh or Scottish players playing in English or French superclubs with Irish or Welsh or Scottish fans wearing Toulouse or Leicester or Toulon shirts into pubs in Dublin, Cardiff and Glasgow.

I could have it all wrong...but I know where money wants to go, and Ireland isn't big enough for the big plotters. The Provinces (or Irish superclubs) would be consumed by the finances pushed into their European neighbours and they would hemorrhage their best players and their fanbase. That's just my view. And it's a nightmare one as far as I'm concerned because International is my focus and the aggressive market led plans of the Top14/AP moneymen want to dissolve its importance to a circus sideshow.

Man Feckless. I agree with all of that. But, we cant hold back Corporate control. Just slow it down and feic it up at every given chance. I have, all my life.

If I had gun... a big one. I would.

IF.

I wrote this article against the grain. But it has to discussed. Or we are we all just lemmings looking for a cliff?

We need ideas. Progressive and solid business ideas that protects as much of what we have now, in the longer-term. At least the provincial CEO's should be brought into the IRFU and have an open and beneficial discussion on the future of Irish Rugby. In fact, I think they should be on the board. The IRFU have been aloof (as in the past) and it will cost them. The status quo wont do in the future. Not in its present state.

Mr Corpo waits for no man, child or decent ethos. Money to be made. A mass of hungry eejits to sell shoite to. Shoite they dont even want or need in the 1st place. They'll love it in time. Must get along. Have a nice miserable life. And thanks for coming.

You gotta laugh.

P.S. I see the Sun on Sunday is out. Will be the biggest selling newspaper as was the NOTW. As is the Sunday Wudild in Ireland. This mo chara, is what we are up against. The World is safe.

Oi mate, it says here ... "The country is ruined and it will take a generation to pay for it with their very souls.. ah yeah. Wooar look at the teets on that!"

Christ Fly,
I thought I was overly concerned bud. Listen, you write the next one. You have a way of using woids like daggers to the psyche.
Brilliant.

But make it nice yeah? We dont want to depress em with too much reality. It will never sell.

It's official.
Everything will be GRAND. Just keep our heads down and it will pass. Wont it?

Gibson wrote:Christ Fly,
I thought I was overly concerned bud. Listen, you write the next one. You have a way of using woids like daggers to the psyche.
Brilliant.

But make it nice yeah? We dont want to depress em with too much reality. It will never sell.

It's official.
Everything is GRAND.

No, you wrote a good one Gibbo. Just makes me think....and it's good to think.

And I know the kind of plotting and planning going on in the background amongst Top14 and AP owners, you're right. But I don't know how any formula they land on is going to have anything but problems for our Provinces.

They just don't want a nice big happy club competition stretched out across the rugby playing nations of Europe. They are saying quite clearly, that's not really the point or the proposal. The point is they are making it clear that they want to start winning big again and they don't care what they have to change to make it so. They are saying their business models will no longer accept defeats to small fry Celtic regions in high profile European competition. They are almost saying they are prepared to buy the 'refs' to return to where they need to be to make profits - the top.

Of course it's not the ref they'll buy but the competition concept itself and the rules around it. And that they'll frame to ensure the minnows sink and the giants swim.

The only hope we have is to link up with our Pro12 partners and say you don't have any European deal that deletes the ability of smaller regions to have the ability to compete. You don't have a European deal because even if you go alone, we'll say you still have to compete against us to prove your the best in Europe. We just want parity - and parity will mean certain caps on spending.

SecretFly, you talk of population density. Do Toulouse or Leicester have more people than Leinster? No. Have you noticed that Munster and Leinster often get top billing on Sky Sports Heineken Cup coverage? Have you noticed that Leinster can fill Lansdowne road with passionate fans? The big Irish names, and the big Irish crowds are an attraction, even to a British audience, in the same way that AC Milan and Barcelona are an attraction to British and French audiences. They're big brands.

Our presence in a super league will be wanted by the money men. Leinster has a catchment area of what, about 2.5 million? I reckon the numbers that at least nominally say they support them are in the hundreds of thousands. They'll want us in. And we can succeed without sugar daddies matching French budgets. We already do. Leinster and Munster are giants in their own right. And like you said, they won't cut a deal without concessions. They're owned by the IRFU. And the IRFU (although incompetent) have the good of international rugby at heart.

The reason the European setup is the way it is is because the small nations group together and bargain together. The English and French didn't have much problem in the beginning. They were happy to help the little guys get better in a money spinning tournament. But then the Irish got to good. And built a superior system. And started beating them and broke their monopoly of success. So they want change. But the small nations had bargaining power before. And they still do now.

Gibson thinks we're gonna get steamrolled by "reforms" which will setup a tournament in which the big English and French teams buy everyones best players and get their monopoly back. But I think, if anything, they should be looking at our system and copying the best bits of it. I've already heard English people wonder out loud about this alternative possibility.

Maybe IRB/ERC caps on spending? That is anathema to those with big plans. A corporate mortaller if you will. But, it is the answer to it all. The best answer so far. As long as they were good enough to give our top players a great living. Id vote for that. Some are more equal than others though. So a scale would have to be set. Like in a corporatio...

Let skill win out on a level playing field? Players playing with pride, in front of their equally proud home-fans, for their home towns, clubs, provinces, or at least - countries? Imagine. Nirvana. Sounds a lot like Munster and Leinster now. Remember it well. Frame it mentally.

Jayzuz that's a mad idea Ted. Maybe we should speak to our close friends the English and match their caps. Take on the rich Frogs & English Warlords together with a PRO12/Jeff combo? Isolate, name & shame the bar steward oligarchs who are trying to mess with rugby union. Club together for a hit man. I'll do it. For nowt.

Need sleep. Obviously. Im dreaming online.

P.S. I dont believe all is lost. Never said that. Just know major change is coming. I strongly believe that Ulster, Leinster and Munster will thrive and survive, no matter what is thrown at us and as long as we prepare for it. And the IRFU helps us rather than stymies us,- when the powers that be, make their move. We are well on the way to achieving that. But we must never rest on our HC laurels.

Im afraid the PRO12/Celtic League may die as it is. Unless (I keep repeating this) it takes concerted action and strong long-term committment from all the 4 countries. It's actually worse news for the Scots clubs and the Welsh regions. This article should have been re-written for them. If I'm honest. I can see their best players being shared around Europe. Their exodus has already started.

Soccer is becoming a "who can afford to buy the best players" competition. And only billionaires can play. Unfortunately international soccer is a sideshow to the European club game. It should be the pinnacle. And most of the European club game is a sideshow to a few rich clubs. I just don't want rugby to go that way.

Spending caps aren't necessary really. Here's a better rule Gibson. Every domestic European team should have a small quota of foreign players. The rest of the squad has to be of the nationality of that club. And a certain proportion of the squad has to be academy produced. The team that produces the best players reaps the rewards. Like it should be. Some English and French have to sort out their setup to adapt. They can. And they can have the best teams by producing them not buying them. Leinster can. Canterbury can. Queensland can. Bath and Cardiff can too.

Here's another rule. All 6 Nations get some places in the hypothetical super league.

With those rules agreed, I'd let club owners invent any season format they want. A completely level playing field one super euro competition if they want. Why not. No more accusations of one nation having an easier league or an easier qualification. Everybody plays in one big lucrative competition, with clubs pumping most money into academy's rather than big name has been's. There's room for southern stars in every team. But with limited spaces, there'll be more quality control and less journeymen. Toulon can keep Jonny Wilkinson. But they better produce a French pack to but him in position to score or they'll sink.

Economic clout can focus where it should be focused. Producing Home grown geniuses. International rugby wins.

Wow Gibbo, that some post. Well thought out and well written.

I am howver yet to be completely sold on the idea but i am not writing it off either, i will think about it for a bit longer. I am just a little concerned as to where this will all end up to be honest.

Lose those central contracts for a start and the IRFU should certainly back right off from imposing themselves on the regions.

Just to make it clear, any changes the English clubs want to make the domestic competition have to be ratified by the RFU. They've already tried to make changes (more games) but the RFU said no. If the clubs tried to ignore that they would no longer be registered with a national union and wouldn't be playing union any more (but their own game with the same laws). The clubs are probably relying on the massive cash boost from the EPS payments that the RFU can pull at the next negotiations (and STILL get the players for the international window like we always used to).

Changes are afoot but I can't see the salary cap changing massively as it's controlled by the clubs, the majority of whom don't have the money. It's getting easier to play (and pay) academy players more often with the new rules and we have a slight increase in the total amount and the unclear 'marquee' contracts. I also can't see promotion being scrapped (remember it's the promotion that is the key and relegation is an unfortunate by product). The clubs want to ring fence the premiership and have done for years. The RFU doesn't. The only way I would be willing for a ring-fenced top tier would be if we went regional, covering all clubs, or had a 3 or 4 year rolling franchise system (see super league and all their complaints over it).

The main changes that will happen are probably season restructures. I don't see how this would heavily bother the Irish provinces (other than removing their ability to rest players just before HEC games ). What could happen is the Irish derbies be positioned better to get the best players playing in them (as I understand it they're usually rested now?). Another possible improvement would be have S15 style conferences with more 'Irish' games and fewer 'foreign' games. I can see this as the way forward with a 'European' league but we've kind of got that now anyway (3 conferences, best players go into the HEC playoff competition and the lowest teams go into the ACC playoff competition.

Just a few garbled thoughts after I've gotten up at 4am to help the missus mark coursework

OK, I have a few comments and a few questions.

Firstly when you look at the success of Ireland's provincial teams in the Heineken Cup compared to the clubs of england, it is clear that the provincial setup allows for your best players to be centrallised between fewer teams and hence your overall team quality is better prepared and of higher quality than english clubs who do qualify for the HC.

I say this becuase I have always had the theiry that Clubs qualifying for the HC are not the best players cooleted from England, but the best clubs. You will find that a club that have qualified for the HC through the Aviva Premiership will have positions that are not representing the best players right through. It is logica it will happen,becuase as an example you may have the third best fly half play for a team that has qualified, but the best flyhalf in the Aviva might not because his team didn't qualify.

Whereas in Ireland the top three in each position will be represented + top three reserves in most cases.

So in my opinion the proof is there that the system works currently as is.

Now from a Pro12 perspective, it is played by those self same teams, plus the regional teams from Wales, and some Scottish and Italian clubs for good measure.


Question

What changes do you foresee in club structures?

Why would it affect your infrastructure and setup if England and France change their structure?

Why is the control from the IRFU a problem for you?

Is it no to Ireland and Wales' benefit to just look at their pro12 setup and perhaps remove Scotland's and Italy's teams from that roster?

Perhaps ensuring fewer teams but higher quality in the Pro 12 will attract more and bigger sponsors and television revenue?

The way I see it and I am looking from an ignorant point of view as I am not affay with how all of this works. But Ireland and Wales' strucutre goes from amateur clubs, to Pro 12, to HC?

I don't understand how the amateur and Pro 12 will be affected by these changes you are talking about.

If the format of the HC changes, surely it will be to the advantage of all involved unless England and France are planning to go on their own?

I think that is the worry. Currently the French and English populations PROBABLY generate the most income to the HEC. But the money is equally shared out (I think). The HEC 'contract' is up for renewal this year and there have been noises from the clubs that this is unfair (especially as this money is used to strengthen the rivals who are winning most of the cups). As already said, this was fine when English and French clubs were winning all but one season (and that was against only the French).

If the English and French clubs decide to set up their own European competition (either cup or league or both) then the (3) Provinces would not only the money but also their primary competition. This could well be a disaster for them. Of course it's probably all just the usual bull before contract renegotiations (such as player X is in talk will big French spender etc)

What is the possibility of having a Super Celtic Rugby tournament?

Reduce the teams to the top 8, will it not be a viable proposition?

I personally think it wouldn't improve english rugby or French rugby if they just have their teams playing in the alternative HC tournament.

It will still only be clubs playing and not their best players.

If they however change the format of the HC to regional squads only from their own countries, that would be bad for the rest of europe.

What would be the benefit of the Super 8? If the HEC goes down the pan then the teams would lose a lot of money which would not be generated by any competition involving just the 3 nations (the population base isn't big enough). The money spinner is European competitions due to the large sponsorship and TV deals, generated by the English and French population.

Then link up with SA, we have a big population and more provinces

Great OP.

All I can say is this. Professionalism is killing the game. To play for ones country used to the the ultimate goal and there was nothing to stand in the way of players achieving this. Now release dates to play for your nation, and ridiculous wages have caused a disease to be spread throughout world rugby.

Just look at Otago and many provinces in NZ. Otago look as if they may be wound up in 24 hours and even if they survive they cannot afford to play in their new stadium in Dunedin.

I think this is relevant to your OP just.

biltongbek, that's certainly a possibility. Would the SARU be more likely to join with the English and French clubs rather than a Super 8? And would Ulster count as a SA team or an Irish team? Perhaps Saracens could join as well

Firstly good post Gibbo.

In the short term:

Dump Central contracts - often a player past his best is on one when a rising star is not. Also the supicion that players make the squad only because they are on a Central Contract.
Just give the Provinces a bit more cash and drop the system.

In parallel drop the restriction on playing outside the International windows.

Stop the farce of insisting players get game time in certain positions i.e. Paddy Wallace playing at 10 or Tom Court playing TH.

The development of identity at the 3 leading Provinces will become a more and more important voice in the years ahead and wil lthey will also become bigger and bigger income earners. The financial balance of power will slowly move towards the Provinces in the next 5 to 10 years.

Part 2 - Ulster specific

Regarding the development of the ground I would be very surprised if IRFU are not going to give up a portion of the ownership of the ground to some Northern based body. Are Stormont really giving 18.5 million pounds to the IRFU ? - maybe Rava knows

As to Red Rights questions regarding support for Ulster and whether it is even across the province I would make the following observation (no politics!)
About 10 years ago a southern newspapar ran an article saying only 4 Catholics had played for Ulster in its history. It was wrong because we had 4 at that time. However the article did have a point. The sport in the 80's and 90's was seen as a sectional interest.

However in the last decade the barriers have fallen down year on year and it is now most definitely seen as a cross community, 9 counties team. Those days are over, except for the very small bigoted minority.

Four examples:

In a game earlier this year we may have had an all Catholic front row - 2 were and 1 was from a southern born mother and a Greek father.

On a visit to the Gaeltacht in Donegal last year I went into a pub to see Gaelic football posters, Munster rugby posters and Ulster rugby posters with equal prominance on the walls. Got chatting to the landlords and basically he was a football man who had fallen in love with rugby and tried to get to Ravenhill and Thormond Park as often as possible;.

Letterkenny by some measures are the fastest developing team in Ulster

The Best brothers have been going into schools in South Armagh teaching rugby to the kids and it has been enthusiactically received

Times they are a changing

Part 3 - Pro12 specific

We should not underestiamte the power of the Italians.

I am 99% certain there is some provision that the Italians can add 2 more teams to the league when they are ready.

Wales and Scotland need to get sorted as Ireland and Italy could be the well be the driving force going forward. The potential in Italy is huge. In 20 years they could become another France

geoff998rugby wrote:
As to Red Rights questions regarding support for Ulster and whether it is even across the province I would make the following observation (no politics!)

Once upon a time I played U-18's rugby for an Ulster based AIB club. The majority of the side were catholic and several represented Ulster at age group level, certainly all aspired to regardless of religon. I suspect that this would still be the case. This was the late 90's and certainly politically things have progressed markedly since then.

I would say that the biggest barrier for Ulster is that rugby is mainly played in Grammar schools which are predominantly occupied by protestants. Politically I don't think there is an issue and Ulster are heavily supported by middle class nationalists/Catholics I believe.

In fact two of the main sponsors of club rugby in the the NW, I believe, are businesses run by catholic businesmen.

Here the Great G Thornley talking about this on Off the Ball recently..

Apparently the national team still bring in 87% of all revenue for
rugby in ireland, which include HC and MAgners.

geoff998rugby wrote:Times they are a changing

This is one of the best dialogues I have read - almost anywhere - in a long time. For everyone in that blessed, wonderful, and hopefully formerly troubled island to the left, I couldn't happier.

geoff998rugby wrote:Times they are a changing

I served as an emergency doctor in the North right out of medical school about 20 years ago. Only a few addled idiots could have predicted THIS is such a short period of time.
My truest heartfelt respect and admiration to all.

geoff998rugby wrote:Times they are a changing

"Times they are a changing"
Erm, actually, not completely. I still want to beat you in the 6 Nations.
And, considering how things have been going lately, hopefully some time this millenium.

caoimhincentre wrote:Here the Great G Thornley talking about this on Off the Ball recently..

Apparently the national team still bring in 87% of all revenue for
rugby in ireland, which include HC and MAgners.

Yeah and I think thats the bottom line. Unlike France and England the national side is the economic driver of Rugby in Ireland... in that respect we have more in common with Wales or perhaps NZ. France and England have 10 times the population we do so what works for them will not necessarily work for us.

As much as we love our provinces, without the IRFU's financial assistance they would not be the force they are and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

I'm not sure I've got this right, the Irish team are the best they have ever had, the most competitive they have ever had, and have won a recent GS, not to mention regular wins V Aus and SA in recent years, Munster and Leinster are regularly the best teams in europe, and have won a number of HC trophies in recent years, not to mention Ireland having 3 teams through this season...

AND YOUR NOT HAPPY AT THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING?

You are not happy with the level of commitment, and loyalty the top Irish players show to their provinces?!

You are not happy with the IRFU throwing Connaught under the bus to ensure Munster and Leinster stay top of the pile?

Your not happy that the Irish provinces dominate the Pro 12?

You want a total overhaul that will only business ise your province mentallity, which is Irelands strength?

Am I missing something? Because Wales have just changed their structure to emulate the Irish province system, and are screaming out for a central contract system!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not sure I've got this right, the Irish team are the best they have ever had, the most competitive they have ever had, and have won a recent GS, not to mention regular wins V Aus and SA in recent years, Munster and Leinster are regularly the best teams in europe, and have won a number of HC trophies in recent years, not to mention Ireland having 3 teams through this season...

AND YOUR NOT HAPPY AT THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING?

You are not happy with the level of commitment, and loyalty the top Irish players show to their provinces?!

You are not happy with the IRFU throwing Connaught under the bus to ensure Munster and Leinster stay top of the pile?

Your not happy that the Irish provinces dominate the Pro 12?

You want a total overhaul that will only business ise your province mentallity, which is Irelands strength?

Am I missing something? Because Wales have just changed their structure to emulate the Irish province system, and are screaming out for a central contract system!!

i think you have put the argument to rest with that

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not sure I've got this right, the Irish team are the best they have ever had, the most competitive they have ever had, and have won a recent GS, not to mention regular wins V Aus and SA in recent years, Munster and Leinster are regularly the best teams in europe, and have won a number of HC trophies in recent years, not to mention Ireland having 3 teams through this season...

AND YOUR NOT HAPPY AT THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING?

That my friend is the irish way!

Feckless Rogue wrote:SecretFly, you talk of population density. Do Toulouse or Leicester have more people than Leinster? No. Have you noticed that Munster and Leinster often get top billing on Sky Sports Heineken Cup coverage? Have you noticed that Leinster can fill Lansdowne road with passionate fans? The big Irish names, and the big Irish crowds are an attraction, even to a British audience, in the same way that AC Milan and Barcelona are an attraction to British and French audiences. They're big brands.

The objective of certainly head honchos at the AP is to dissolve all that. What Leinster is now, it is. Nobody disputes that, I've watched it grow. What the AP sides and the Top14 sides want is to WIN again. They want to develop worldwide brands (like Manchester and Liverpool is to football) and they don't want to be the also-rans in that branding exercise. That's the reasoning behind wanting run-of-the-mill AP games being played in Arab deserts.

Our presence in a super league will be wanted by the money men. Leinster has a catchment area of what, about 2.5 million? I reckon the numbers that at least nominally say they support them are in the hundreds of thousands. They'll want us in. And we can succeed without sugar daddies matching French budgets. We already do. Leinster and Munster are giants in their own right. And like you said, they won't cut a deal without concessions. They're owned by the IRFU. And the IRFU (although incompetent) have the good of international rugby at heart.

Gibson's point was that there might come a time when the Irish big sides (Munster, Leinster and probably Ulster too now) will want to cast off the IRFU fatherly presence and say they need to go it alone (spend their own money and reap all the profits for themselves - plus being compensated by the IRFU for any players taken away on International duty) We succeed now because Provinces get some of their wages paid by the Lord Overseer, the IRFU - the Please Stay at Home money. And then the goverment also subsidises that for Republic players with the tax incentive.
In the new world where Top14/AP want an end to what they view as Pro12 'unfair' advantages - those two Irish advantages would be frowned on. Why? Because of my first point - the whole thought process is to dissolve the power of the Pro12 sides so that the English and French can make better returns on their sugardaddy outlays. Leinster and Munster have support and are seen as 'sexy' European sides because they are winning. Their winning draws in the Sky interest. AP/Top14 bosses would like rules that would reduce that winning.

The reason the European setup is the way it is is because the small nations group together and bargain together. The English and French didn't have much problem in the beginning. They were happy to help the little guys get better in a money spinning tournament. But then the Irish got to good. And built a superior system. And started beating them and broke their monopoly of success. So they want change. But the small nations had bargaining power before. And they still do now.

Correct - if the smaller Nations stick together, they have bargaining power - especially if they can manage to sustain that which the other leagues don't like or want - winning.

Gibson thinks we're gonna get steamrolled by "reforms" which will setup a tournament in which the big English and French teams buy everyones best players and get their monopoly back. But I think, if anything, they should be looking at our system and copying the best bits of it. I've already heard English people wonder out loud about this alternative possibility.

Gibson is right is as much as that is exactly what some head honchos from the other leagues want. They have bigger populations and when push comes to shove French people from large areas will support a Toulouse Superteam over one in Ireland called 'Munster. We have 4 or 5 million people to call on for steady support and sponsorship clout... English and French sides, and potentially Italian sides too, have more potential for growth. Potential for growth will attract the guys with the money and they in turn will collect the best players from an Ireland that doesn't protect them (IRFU incentives) and reap the biggest slices of the TV rights pie because they have them.

So yes, of course they'll want us in to keep up the pretence that it is a European League where the cream comes to the top. But all Leagues have the chicken-feed sides eternally at the bottom, or in and out through the relegation door. Leinster and Munster would slide down to mid ranking sides at best and the big oligarch two or three sides would drive on into the history books of glorious epic rivalries and Irish young boys would be wearing their shirts to playschool.

Yes too, the IRFU are smarter than many give them credit for and they've helped push the Provinces to where they are now. Our best bet is to have our Provinces not bedazzled by offers of big rewards for breaking away - but instead, rather say to the AP and Top14 people that the big rewards are already there; and even if we agree to negotiate, we won't be doing no foot-shooting in the process.

I can't even see why I'm writing all that. It seems we're in disagreement even though I wholeheartedly agreed with much of what you have written on this thread, Feckless. Work that one out!

geoff998rugby wrote:
About 10 years ago a southern newspapar ran an article saying only 4 Catholics had played for Ulster in its history. It was wrong because we had 4 at that time.

One of them (I think) was a really good school friend and ex teammate of mine. Despite the early 90's being some dark days regarding the troubles rugby always united people in Ulster in my experience. Sorry off topic but it really feics me off the impression that the southern media give about Ulster at times .