Should the Irish Provinces slowly break away from the Nanny-State control of the IRFU?

First topic message reminder :

I'm going to drop this grenade and wait for positive or negative reactions. I honestly believe, that the Provinces should be more independent financial institutions in future. I'm talking within 5 to 10 years. It could not happen sooner and be viable. The infrastructure to do so, is slowly being readied as we speak. At Munster, at Leinster and now - Ulster. Connacht - are another bag of spanners. They need help, for now - to be readied. The IRFU owe them that. For development fees alone.

I think the provinces should stand alone and the IRFU should slowly back off from completely controlling them. It will happen in the future anyway. It will become counter-productive business-wise and financially unsustainable. The top European clubs are looking to alter the rugby structure, as it stands - in the NH. The French and English oligarchs are plotting as we speak. We will not be immune from it and will either have to join the party or sink. Be proactive and in the game from the start. For once. Ulster's, Munster's and Leinster' s CEO's (Logan, Fitzgerald, and Dawson respectively) are no gobeens. They are way ahead of the game. Despite the IRFU.

The IRFU's continuing stranglehold, in controlling who we can and cannot bring in, or keep, and where they can play positionally - will backfire on them. If you think the inter-provincial bitching is bad on this site now, wait until that kicks in. And it will affect the provinces business decisions adveresly. I cant see the ambitious provincial CEO' s standing for that. It will cause in-fighting at the highest level and the IRFU will find it increasingly hard to arbitrate. They will be the bad guys. And it may cause bad inter-provincial blood. We dont need that.

Best leave the provinces to handle this. But. Restrict foreign players to 4 and no project players would help. Get them to agree to that. Shelve the mad Directive and cut out the temporary dross we have seen creep in. Give the provinces free-reign who they pick, with that constraint, for as long as is required, and in which position. Soften it. We will miss the likes of the Dougie Howlett's and Nacewa's. They have been crucial to both our success and have greatly enhanced the provinces they play for. They became an integral part of our provincial culture. To lose that, would be a crime.

The English model will change too. It has to. Their proportionally abysmal showing in the HC, when compared to the PRO12 teams for the last 10 years, will soon see to that. Watch out for Bruce Craig at Bath, as a standard-bearer for change in the English league. He is looking to be a power again in the HC. The Jeff wont be enough to satiate his ambitions. He is not investing millions in his club for nowt. He is a hugely successful businessman. Wide awake. He knows what' s coming. In fact - he is instigating it with others. Tigers are in this game. As are Sarries and Saints. Toulouse, Toulon, ASM and Stade, et al, are all big players – by wealth, infrastructure and by design.

To try and avoid, or at to at least partly circumvent this, the PRO12 must grow in credibility and financially. Enough to compare with the Jeff and the TOP14. Demand better sponsorship deals on the back of it. It is the only way. We must slowly decrease this IRFU player-protection gig. It is blatantly not working for our International team anyway. Is it? It helps us big-time in the HC. That is the key point here. The English and French power-houses will demand change in the HC qualifying structure before long. Enough disgruntled coaches and owners, have come out strong in the media already. They have had enough of the PRO12 being a socialist protection society for entry into the HC. I don’t blame them really. So we either change the structure of and our commitment to, the PRO12, or suffer the long-term consequences of it.

The IRFU should concentrate what the IRFU are failing at - developing the AIL and the lower leagues, helping Connacht develop, to stand on their own also. And better organising the International team and its coaching team. How do the Provinces make up the money lost from IRFU sponsorship I hear you all scream? What happens the fabled contracts? They must pay the provinces handsomely, from their pot, for their respective provincial players participation in the national squad. Compensate them for the loss of their assets during a rugby season. And lose the contracts. Let the Green Jersey be earned on a continually and closely monitored merit basis only. It' s business.

It wont be equitable. But tough love will improve the respective province's independence and lessen the need for foreigners, over time. They will have to produce more international class players of their own and not run to Mammy for help in buying in Johnny Foreigners. I.E. Don’t spend what you don’t have. I would have thought the Irish have learned that lesson well by now. Anyway, Leinster, Ulster & Munster are producing a prodigeous amount of talented indigenous youngsters as it is. So, why have they restricted us? Its dumb.

The 3 main provinces now have excellent established academies. Connacht U20 teams are growing in strength and the vast sums spent, on soon to be, temporary, blow-ins, should be invested there 1st. And always. But give us the freedom to run our own affairs. We know best, what is best for our individual provinces. The IRFU dont. It is another way of thinking about the whole deal. Just a different, mutually-beneficial, business-based, structure. All good things take time and Munster, Leinster and to a lesser extent - Ulster, are mostly there anyway. Just need to intensify it. And with the IRFU still having important input. They must not make decisions on their own and present us with a fait accompli to deal with. Not the way to do it. Consultatation 1st. Then, a mutually agreeable and beneficial decision.

In the context of future changes in NH club rugby, Ulster are smart in developing their own stadium and their own future income, in this protected, ring-fenced phase of Irish Rugby. As have Munster - when they pay off the IRFU for Thomond.

Ulster have laid down plans to build a World class stadium to help fund their independence. Its done. Its happening. It is UK funded. Smart move Logan. And the fans are there to fill it.

Exactly the same for Munster, who are ahead of the rest - in this facet. Thomond, is magnificent. A shining credit to the Munster board and their fans who kicked it all off over the years. They still fill it. They always will. It's in their blood. Just need to pay off the IRFU loan for it now.

Leinster , without their own ground, are still lucky in that we have a good bedding at the RDS. Mick Dawson is talking of redeveloping the RDS further. The Angelsea Stand to be knocked down and rebuilt. A stand to match Tigers Caterpillar Stand would be magnificent. If, as proposed, Leinster invest in this, in conjunction with the RDS owners - it gives them a stronger base to negotiate rent and a long-term future there.

The RDS has long been the most used venue in Ireland. For rock-concerts, the Horse Show, lesser Ireland games and a host of other functions. Personally, have always preferred Donnybrook as a 25,000/30,000 seater option. Leinster tried. Spent a fortune on a new stand. And a quality structure. But the D4's Tennis & Croquet clubs and the influential surrounding residents have stymied it. It may still be a valid option, now that Ireland is broke and even D4's are looking for easy money and a way out. It should still be considered when they put in the proposal for the new stand at the RDS. Make them a now or never offer. Nothing to lose and all to gain.

For the big HC & PRO12 games (Now Munster, soon to be Ulster also there), we always have nearby access to Lansdowne Road. It comes with the territory of being the Capital and the demographic advantage that gives us. And it is only now we are exploiting it to the full. For this reason - Leinster will always be safe. Bit much there on Leinster. But bless us, we dont own our own ground.

Connacht need a guru to change their fortunes in this period, or they will die. Things are happening there, slowly. The IRFU, to their credit, have pledged them 3 years of support and the shekels to help sort them out. But, more must be done. And soon.

As I said before, change is coming. And we must be ready for it. Whatever format it comes in - it will come. If clubs, provinces and regions are not prepared for it, they will sink. Think the English Premiership and the demise of great clubs in big cities all over England, from the old 1st Division - which is now the 2nd-rate Championship. Rugby Union is a fast-growing, Worldwide business and those who are not aware of the business opportunities involved in it, and plan for it accordingly - will suffer.

Id hate to see it happen for a lot of reasons, but it may be for the best. The best run clubs will rise to the top anyway. For the Paddies, enough mothering and constant bleating on about who gets what from the IRFU table. Lets bitch on our own terms. Time to grow up in our own right, stand on our own 2 feet and leave home.

Besides, we know where Mammie lives, if and when we need her. She'll always be our Ma.

N.B. I have not addressed the effects of this for the Welsh Regions, the 2 x Scottish clubs or the Italians. Not to mention the knock-on effect for their International sides. That is their business to do so. But, they need to get their respective arses in gear. And quick.

Fly

I had to skim most of that but think I got your point!!

Why a you so worried about what France and England are capable of? I would worry about the Yanks and Chinese potential.... Whoa scary!

Your discussing that the English and French could decide to spend a fortune to build supersquads just to start beating the Irish provinces, but in reality they have to compete with each other for players, for wins, for HC spots. They even have huge struggles between football and rugby, and in both nations football is winning hands down!

You are also worried about branding and Sky rights etc... but the finances are not going to change.

Plus lets say that Toulon brand themselves excellently and become the new Man utd, will that help or hinder the French national team?

I don't see Brazil suffering because their league isn't top class, or their clubs are not branded like Man utd, their league is what it is, a great provider of talent, and Man utd are what they are, a great buyer of talent!!!

RELAX, the world is not out to get you...

SecretFly wrote: We have 4 or 5 million people to call on for steady support and sponsorship clout

Sorry to be pedantic secretfly but its more like 6-6.5 million, can we please remember Rugby is an all Ireland sport.......

And sure didn't Paisley only realise we weren't all rabid killers and actually quite nice people when he forgot to listen to his own sermons and took a few strolls down our way.

Media impressions have been skewed both ways and from both sides in our troubled history.

But yes, off topic.

We have 6 or 6.5 million people to call on for steady support and sponsorship clout...............

I'm here to please.

SecretFly wrote:And sure didn't Paisley only realise we weren't all rabid killers and actually quite nice people when he forgot to listen to his own sermons and took a few strolls down our way.

Media impressions have been skewed both ways and from both sides in our troubled history.

Totally different issue secretfly, Paisley is/was a politician and he has nothing to do with Ulster rugby....other than...er.. his church being next door to Ravenhill...actually.... hmm...forget it....

thebluesmancometh wrote:Fly

I had to skim most of that but think I got your point!!

Why a you so worried about what France and England are capable of? I would worry about the Yanks and Chinese potential.... Whoa scary!

Your discussing that the English and French could decide to spend a fortune to build supersquads just to start beating the Irish provinces, but in reality they have to compete with each other for players, for wins, for HC spots. They even have huge struggles between football and rugby, and in both nations football is winning hands down!

You are also worried about branding and Sky rights etc... but the finances are not going to change.

Plus lets say that Toulon brand themselves excellently and become the new Man utd, will that help or hinder the French national team?

I don't see Brazil suffering because their league isn't top class, or their clubs are not branded like Man utd, their league is what it is, a great provider of talent, and Man utd are what they are, a great buyer of talent!!!

RELAX, the world is not out to get you...

I am relaxed...Mostly because I know the IRFU and the Provinces know what they have and aren't about to negotiate it all away. This is a discussion..the discussion is about how we see club competition progressing into this decade and beyond. Trying to work out what individual clubs and leagues want and trying to make judgements on what we might do in the face of those new challenges.

I'm a very selfish humanbeing when I get down to it. I like winning, I like success...makes me happy. I'm from Leinster but I support all Irish Provinces when they battle in Europe and even in Pro12. There is not one Welsh or Italian side that comes out above Munster, Ulster or Connacht in my estimation. And as for International - yes, I want world Dominance there too!!!!!!!!!!

But what do you mean? We in Ireland should accept that maybe one or two English and French clubs would be taking the Lions share of the adulation year in year out, with the rest of us having nice mid-ranking battles that keep the fans happy. And most of our world class players off doing their duty for the extrnal clubs but coming home for the International windows and turning on the style?

I'm selfish - and that's not enough for me. Provincial success - International success - both if possible. Of course the AP sides and Top14 sides think the same thing - but there's the argument. We all want whats best for us in the end.

What exactly are the AP and T14 clubs suggesting? They've said that the PRO12 teams have advantages. They've also said that it's not 'fair' that if more money is generated in England and France they don't get more money. Now, either the Irish provincial rugby is doing well, draws a reasonable interest in their own right (which they do not just in Ireland but around the world) and can therefore fairly claim a reasonable portion of the money...or they're being propped up by English and French interest. I would say the Welsh would be harder to negotiate an equal pay out as they tend not to do great (but similar to English club recently, other than the two finals), have a small population and an apparantly apathy to domistic rugby at the regional level

SecretFly wrote:
I'm selfish - and that's not enough for me. Provincial success - International success - both if possible. Of course the AP sides and Top14 sides think the same thing - but there's the argument. We all want whats best for us in the end.

Thats the difference between us and the other countries fly and were we are actually in a far better position.

The top 14 and AP clubs couldn't give a monkeys about national success and vice versa. To a point club and international success are mutually exclusive in those countries and you have two different bodies pulling in different directions and constantly at loggerheads.

Even in Wales there are big problems between the WRU and Regions.

Our set is infinitely better in my opinion. The IRFU pulls all the strings and the National side is the priority. There are clashes of interests but ultimately everyone is pulling in the same direction.

Ironically it's the national side thats not delivering, whereas it should be the provinces who are handicapped under the umberella structure. That is the only problem in my view.

If you like success Fly my point is... ENJOY IT!!!!

Your club is the best in Europe, the likes of Toulon and Racing Metro have bought masses amount of talent, and it is failing miserably, especially in the HC.

Rugby is not like football, you can't buy success, you have to breed it see the likes of Tolouse and Munster!!!

Everyone is trying to brand themselves better, but as you stated Irish people do not support English, Welsh or French clubs, and it is the same the other way round, Irish branding is in competition with Irish branding!!!

You cannot control what happens in France or England, as you can't control what happens in the USA or China.

The formula currently employed by Ireland is proving succesfull compared to the French, forget about what the French and in particular English are whinging about, the fact that they are whinging means they are struggling!

thebluesmancometh wrote:If you like success Fly my point is... ENJOY IT!!!!

Your club is the best in Europe, the likes of Toulon and Racing Metro have bought masses amount of talent, and it is failing miserably, especially in the HC.

Rugby is not like football, you can't buy success, you have to breed it see the likes of Tolouse and Munster!!!

Everyone is trying to brand themselves better, but as you stated Irish people do not support English, Welsh or French clubs, and it is the same the other way round, Irish branding is in competition with Irish branding!!!

You cannot control what happens in France or England, as you can't control what happens in the USA or China.

The formula currently employed by Ireland is proving succesfull compared to the French, forget about what the French and in particular English are whinging about, the fact that they are whinging means they are struggling!

Everything you say is true. But again - this is a discussion. You comment on a discussion by putting ideas in the air and debating them.

The English clubs certainly are unhappy..the French probably unhappy too but in their own aloof way. They'll eventually put new proposals forward to Union and TV companies about a new way forward. And when that comes round, much as we might want to ignore it - we won't be able to.

So.................................. what do you do? You write a thread on the subject and people write down their opinions. You seem to think I'm a raving, foam-mouthed, terrified glass-half-empty lunatic. (Don't worry, others do too!) Seriously though no - I'm enjoying the ride - well, apart from the International slide. I'm enjoying it a lot. And as I say, we won't be doing any foot-shooting when others come forward looking to rewrite the European Rugby blueprint.

roddersm wrote:

SecretFly wrote:And sure didn't Paisley only realise we weren't all rabid killers and actually quite nice people when he forgot to listen to his own sermons and took a few strolls down our way.

Media impressions have been skewed both ways and from both sides in our troubled history.

Totally different issue secretfly, Paisley is/was a politician and he has nothing to do with Ulster rugby....other than...er.. his church being next door to Ravenhill...actually.... hmm...forget it....

He did complain about us playing on Sunday once.... very enjoyable day alround as I recall

But what if Hitler comes back to life and tries to take over the european mainland again?

If's and But's...

Plus I don't think your giving the Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Italian unions enough credit. We have banded together for a reason.

If push comes to shove we all band together the pull of an English French only HC would certainly not please anyone!

thebluesmancometh wrote:But what if Hitler comes back to life and tries to take over the european mainland again?

If's and But's...

Plus I don't think your giving the Welsh, Irish, Scottish and Italian unions enough credit. We have banded together for a reason.

If push comes to shove we all band together the pull of an English French only HC would certainly not please anyone!

'Ifs' and bloody 'buts' is a discussion, bluesman! And you're right again. If and when the time comes - and that is not an IF, it will happen - IF we band together, we'll hold our own. I said that umpteen times already. We are in agreement. Now, there's a surprise in a discussion thread - two people agreeing with each other but one of them not realising it.

BTW, Hitler is alive again and his name is Merkel

It is also about putting yourself in a good position when change does come.
Don't wait for event dictate - dictate what the events are.

Shane Logan (Ulster CEO) has made no secret that he wants Ulster to be a top 10 side Europe so that if a European league comes into play Ulster get a seat at the top table.

So this debate is relevant as how we get 3 Irish teams in such a position, it has to be our goal.

I have been intrigued by this debate.

Gibbo's OP seems to swing on the inevitability of the force of the tide of capitalism but there seems to be a discounting of the force of self-interest inherent in the process of the current status quo.

Football (itself possibly the worst example of sport management) is having to confront the very essence of sport - i.e. financial viability.

Thus far I hold Irish RU as the very best model of professional RU organisations albeit they fell on to it by dint of the fortunate happenchance of ancient provinces.

I agree with central contracts whilst opposing wage caps based on fixed sums rather than affordability. But this far I've been whistling against a very strong breeze.

If Gibbo's worst fears are to come to pass, given the number of self-interested parties, it would take a schism of almost Krakatoan proportions compared with that of 1895.

Portnoy wrote:
If Gibbo's worst fears are to come to pass, given the number of self-interested parties, it would take a schism of almost Krakatoan proportions compared with that of 1895.

Now that's the prose this thread needs

Gents, please don't mention the "H" word here.
There are lots of other good analogies.
Thanks - and I know I am a bit over sensitive.

The best way to kill the aura of a tyrant is to include him in jokes. To keep him wrapped up furnishes him with a charisma that attracts those who like things that are hidden from view and considered illicit.

doctor_grey wrote:Gents, please don't mention the "H" word here.
There are lots of other good analogies.
Thanks - and I know I am a bit over sensitive.

Agreed.

...

Gibbo has put forward an extremely plausible case. Different from mine - but plausible.

I have long argued along with the gist of this paragraph from the OP:

"The English model will change too. It has to. Their proportionally abysmal showing in the HC, when compared to the PRO12 teams for the last 10 years, will soon see to that. Watch out for Bruce Craig at Bath, as a standard-bearer for change in the English league. He is looking to be a power again in the HC. The Jeff wont be enough to satiate his ambitions. He is not investing millions in his club for nowt. He is a hugely successful businessman. Wide awake. He knows what' s coming. In fact - he is instigating it with others. Tigers are in this game. As are Sarries and Saints. Toulouse, Toulon, ASM and Stade, et al, are all big players – by wealth, infrastructure and by design."

I'm not sure that it depends on Sugar-daddies as that requires seamless continuity to take the vision forward in perpetuity.

But a member-based Irish provincial ownership structure loosening the apron strings from the IRFU is a completely realistic proposition.

Long-term, Portnoy, I agree that the sugar-daddies may not stick around, but it makes sense that they will be the drivers of change?

Portnoy wrote:
But a member-based Irish provincial ownership structure loosening the apron strings from the IRFU is a completely realistic proposition.

No I think it is not. That would be a disaster imo. As soon as the provinces become independent and responsible for their own finances then you get a conflict of interest. Provincial success becomes the priority which means the provinces will not want to rest or release international players or adhere to quotas regarding players national eligibility. They accept these things right now because they know which side their bread is buttered on but would not be so accommodating should they become financially independent.

SecretFly wrote:

The objective of certainly head honchos at the AP is to dissolve all that ... What the AP sides and the Top14 sides want is to WIN again. They want to develop worldwide brands (like Manchester and Liverpool is to football) and they don't want to be the also-rans in that branding exercise.

...

In the new world where Top14/AP want an end to what they view as Pro12 'unfair' advantages - those two Irish advantages would be frowned on. Why? Because of my first point - the whole thought process is to dissolve the power of the Pro12 sides so that the English and French can make better returns on their sugardaddy outlays. Leinster and Munster have support and are seen as 'sexy' European sides because they are winning. Their winning draws in the Sky interest. AP/Top14 bosses would like rules that would reduce that winning.

History tells us that when the rules favour nations other than England, the English endeavour to change the rules.

Mid-nineteenth century, entrance to the British Colonial Civil Service was by public examination - a genuine meritocracy. After a few years of this the senior officials in the Foreign and Colonial Office realised that due to the superior education system in Ireland, more Irishmen were being employed in the Colonial Civil Service than Englishmen. Rather than revamp the English education system to bring it up to the levels of the Irish one, they changed the rules to disadvantage Irish entrants to the examination and thus restore what they saw as the natural balance.

The AP CEO (Mark McCafferty?) has said the rules for entry to the HEC should be changed. He had a right old whinge about it after the pool matches were all over because only one AP team qualified. Brian Redpath, DoR Gloucester, suggested (on SKY after the games) that the main reason for the lack of AP participation in the ko rounds of the HEC were because of the "crash-test-dummy" style of rugby which was prevalent on the AP (don't argue with me over that I am quoting BR). If that is so, it seems to me that the AP need to look at their own style of rugby, its development and all that is going on within its own house before complaining that other leagues have unfair advantage.

The ERC and its trophies (HEC and Amlin) are "owned" by ALL the European nations, hence the involvement in the Amlin of teams from Rumania, Spain and wherever else (sorry I can't remember all the nations represented in the Amlin). The rules of entry should not be changed just because some leagues seem to think that they have some automatic right of representation in the final stages of the competition.

The Irish model has worked very well in the first years of professional rugby. It may well be time now to have a look at the system and see how it should be developed. One thing, though, which I believe is certain. Rugby fans look at European football and know in their heart of hearts that they do not want rugby to go the same way. We do not want Billionaires of whatever variety coming in and buying up clubs and forcing rule changes just to line their pockets. Bruce Craig has been mentioned here. He is a rugby man - played at St Brendan's College in East Bristol; nearest AP club to his boyhood home is Bath - I believe he is more interetsed in the outcome of Bath as a rugby club than in filling his pockets some more. Can the same be said for some of the football sugar-daddies?

Should Ireland change its model? I don't know, but would agree that it should be reviewed. Leinster have got their structure in place. They were well served with a (relatively) large school-boy playing base to supply candidates for their academy. Munster, with fewer rugby-playing schools have also got their academy well in place now, especially with the clubs - there is a rugby club now in Corcha Dhuibhne!. I cannot comment on Ulster or Connacht. But both Munster and Leinster are now reaping the rewards of the efforts put into these.

In South-west England, I have been told by a reliable source that if you do not play for one of two educational establishments, your chances of being spotted or getting to play representative rugby are almost nil. That is not how it should be. What are the clubs or thr RFU doing about this?

So while I say, review the Irish set-up, but please do so with an eye to the debacle that is football and to those who may be involved in such a review, remember the fans - after all we are your bread and butter; it is we who pay the piper (the sponsors will NOT come on board if there are no fans). DO NOT separate the clubs / provinces / franchises from the fans. DO NOT see the sole purpose of rugby as generation of profits for corporations. Rugby is for fun, friendship and families. (Families can be defined in many ways and all are relevant to this game).

well said KiaRose!

Kia:

KiaRose wrote:[

History tells us that when the rules favour nations other than England, the English endeavour to change the rules.

Is an uncharacteristic an unfair comment.

All countries tend to bend the rules to their own ends. cf Jackie Charlton's ROI footy team.

I didn't write that line BTW........................... I get in enough trouble without being misquoted.

I know it was a cut and paste mistake though

True Fly. I was in the middle of editing the attribution as you posted.

Still a very strange comment from Kia though.

History tells us that every nations is looking after number 1. Itself. You could accuse the English of being better at it than others in the past, but you can't accuse them of being the only ones pushing for their own interests.

I've always considered the French to be the most self interested, self important nations there is.

Strange Portnoy? No. I think he is correct, as were you in all countries wanting to bend the rules. Aus and NZ wanted to change the rugby laws when neither could beat South Africa.

KiaRose not kiakawhateverisnameis

So much good content here.
My thoughts, for whatever they are worth. Given I am not Irish, I assume I can still offer something here?
I have a few comments on what I have read and some opinions going forwards.

I truly do not believe any club owner in England or France are looking to destabilize or attack Irish Rugby or weaken their strength or performance. Any and all good businessmen know a rising tide raises ALL ships. So, strong performances by Irish clubs and by the Ireland team is – good for everyone. As are good performances by the other Celtic nations.

The powers that be in Ireland should always be looking how to change their model. Applies everywhere, by the way. I believe change is coming because it is inevitable. There is no such fantasy known as maintaining the status quo. This does not mean radical change, nor does it mean weakening a system, such as in Ireland at the moment, which from my vantage point appears to be working well. But it is important to change with the times rather than afterwards.

Frankly, I do not believe the Premiership and Top 14 issues have much to do with Ireland at all. Or anyone else for that matter. I see this as another part of the on-going war between the English clubs and the RFU, as well as between the French Clubs and the FFR. Because those clubs wield so much power now, as do their national bodies, everyone else gets swept up in the whirlwind. Those issues have never been resolved. The RFU/FFR represent in many ways the forces resistant to any change, a legacy of the amateur era. The clubs have a different view, as one would expect since the national unions and the clubs are different business entities with different needs.

All this comes back to the root of the struggle and the basic problem which impacts all of us, which is how to grow. There are radically different business models in NZ, Oz, SA, England/France and the Celtic countries. I am leaving Italy out or the moment because they are in transition. And then we have the developing countries (developing in the Rugby sense) as well.

I do agree with the one proposal to rationalize the European season. Separating the domestic/Celtic season, the Heineken Cup season and the International season makes perfect sense. On the other hand, the proposals to create an European Super League is destructive to all and would hinder growth. To me this is because we need as many teams (clubs, franchises, regions, etc.) playing and competing and having maximum visibility to truly grow the sport. We can never forget the grass roots which is the ultimate firmament of Rugby.

The overall challenge which I see is there is no truly global vision and the IRB as currently constituted is not leading, nor do I believe it is able. And it is arguable whether it should. In the absence of leadership/vision there emerges all these divergent proposals.

So change is coming. The goal for all of us is to, in some way, ensure it is careful, pragmatic and helps ensure growth everywhere. And avoid parochial needs in favour of the larger picture.

Interesting that Bruce Craig is being used as an analogy for football club owners and a threat to centrally controlled structures. If Craig wanted to make even more money he wouldn't put it into rugby and Bath in particular with its legacy of poor infrastructure.

Simple fact is that because of his passion for Bath, he is looking on spending tens of millions but as a businessman will not do so if that investment is not self sustaining.

Changing the structure of the season into blocks is an obvious start to allow teams and players to give the proper focus to particular competitions. It has been hugely frustrating in Bath circles for recent HC campaigns to have key players missing which in some cases has simply been down to workload and facing teams picking from virtually fully fit squads of current internationals.
There are only two options to respond to this situation; raise the salary cap (bad) or petition for structural changes. There is a third nuclear option which is to create a club knockout competition between French and English clubs but hopefully won't come to that, despite the interest it would create for both fans and tv. The LV looks to be going which could be a factor in the current belt tightening in Wales where their regions have taken the money and ran off, for several years now.

Central top down structures have never achieved longevity in any walk of life. In rugby the NZRU are now trying to obtain private funding for their franchises and which will accept their control of players - good luck with that. In the meantime historic clubs are either on the brink of financial collapse or just dying through lack of interest or both because they are no longer the top tier of the game reducing the longer term access to the top tier of the game for future generations.

If there's going to be reforms, for me the most desirable outcome would be

Play domestic leagues 1st. They'd have to be shortened by half I'd say, to fit the new setup.
Then play the ERC comps in one block. Nobody has advantages in terms of resting players etc.
Then play the 6 Nations after the domestic season
Then the European test teams can go on a summer test series down south.

In this scenario the French and English keep their beloved leagues. And they don't lose players to international duty in the middle of the season. The Pro 12 would probably have a bigger profile in the Celtic nations because there'll be no Heineken Cup running concurrently, overshadowing it.

The Heineken Cup will be a completely level playing field. No accusations of the English having to play a tougher league at the same time. HEC qualification and relegation will be done and dusted before the first HEC game starts.

The 6 nations will be the climax to the season, as it should be. And the European teams can take the rhythm and cohesion they've gained from the tournament into the summer tour down south.

What I DON'T want to see is an elite Euro Super league for the 12 or so biggest teams. Even if Leinster are involved. All the nations best teams should be getting exposure to each other. Not just an elite few, backed by sugar daddies.

And what I DON'T want to see is a team like Toulon succeed. I'd rather see George North score the winning try for Scarlets in the HEC final against my beloved Leinster, than see Toulon buy their way to glory.

Recwatcher, I've no idea what Bruce Craig's plans are to be honest. But my worry would be that his plans are to make Bath the "Man City" of rugby. He might not be interested in making money. But he might be interested in buying half the All Blacks team to help Bath win trophies.

Which is good for Bath fans I guess. But it's not really good for the development of European rugby.

Feckless Rogue wrote:But my worry would be that his plans are to make Bath the "Man City" of rugby. He might not be interested in making money. But he might be interested in buying half the All Blacks team to help Bath win trophies.

He would have to build something resembling a real stadium before trying to build Bath into anything but a nice team with a great history in a fantastic town.

Feckless, most of Craig's investment to date has been facilities and further academy infrastructure. The Bath academy has historically churned out too many players for the first team to cope with resulting in almost all AP sides containing ex Bath academy players - a little known fact which Geech is continuing to develop, with the number of youngsters who played against Leinster, for example.

However if Craig spends upwards of £50M over the coming years he knows that unless you are competitive you won't put bums on 25k seats. Bath are currently not competitive because in part of structural factors both within the English league and the HC. As a businessman he is only ever going to challenge that. As Bath fans it is interesting times.

Well. Some excellent posts on here and no WUMing. Thank you for that and for your input. Sorry I cant answer them all individually. I have recently found a Life...

I have a few points to make and some to reiterate.

1. It is true. The Irish model is admired and is jealously coveted by our European neighbours. And is seen as an unfair advantage, at both HC and International levels. It is akin to the huge advantage our low Corporation Tax gives us in business. That, is being now threatened by the Pipers we have to pay, as a condition. Lose that and we lose our competitive business edge in attracting foreign companies to settle in Ireland. It is a sharp analogy. As both will be strongly challenged by economic reality in future.

2. Why should we lose or at least have to adapt our model? And/or why will it be thinned-out by the advent of The French & English clubs upping the anti? Because players such as (insert your provinces key players as required) Sexton, Heaslip, O Brien and Kearney, could earn twice the amount IRFU can pay them at present - including their tax advantage. They would also have a different cultural experience - in rugby and lifestyle. And a far higher quality of life to entice them away.

Basic economics and lifestyle changes. The pull will be strong. Can they resist it and stay under the safe wing of the IRFU? My contention is - some will, some wont. And you could not blame them if they left. Think of your own situation financially, before you make the judgement and loyalty calls. This, I feel, will be the thin edge of the wedge in future. It will weaken the Irish Model, which will have to adapt to stop the flow by pure necessity. These players can have their bread buttered on both sides. 2 or 3 years in France. Make a packet. Come back even better players to Ireland, finish their careers there and still pick up the tax benefits. I would. Wouldnt you? Please correct me if Im wrong in that contention. I was informed that as long as they finish their careers in Ireland - it still applies.

3. I keep beating the drum for the PRO12. Because it has so much potential to protect us as well as the IRFU. This is my main bone of contention. It has to be taken more seriously by all parties concerned. Or it will never grow and attract bigger sponsorship and thus, more money for our respective clubs, regions and provinces. This effectively means, we must all commit our best players to it. This in turn means, player-protection schemes have to be adjusted to suit, or disappear altogether.

To those who smugly say, we wont change, it is a madman postulating, why should we? Things are grand as they are. So why change anything? I say, it wont be yours or the IRFU's to make that choice. It will be made for them, over time. And to those who say, because the IRFU pay the mass of our international players wages, ergo - they call all the shots. And therefore, will not play them for their country as punishment. Wrong. There is a body called the EU. It protects their freedom of movement legally, to do what they want – without being discriminated against. And they will still have to pay more for players as the game grows, either way. They cant avoid that.And will they be able to afford it?

There is also the players agents(I know. I know, but it is real), who will be looking for more personal sponsorship to compensate them for their individual worth. The IRFU presently dominates and controls this. That will change too. More money for the players. I hope you see where I am going with this. The IRFU cant stop this or hold it back. More loss of control. So why not pre-empt it and plan accordingly? That is the nub of what I am saying.

What is wrong with some of our top players, leaving home, to better themselves financially and more likely - their game? It would also serve to alleviate the burden on the IRFU, if French and English clubs pay their club-wages. And it should not affect their availability for Ireland, if those players have it built into their contracts. I don’t see the problem. It would give the IRFU more money to improve our game at local level. This is our growing strength - our Academies. So feed that more, and develop Connacht more, develop the game countrywide more. Instead of all the cream being milked by our stars.

Things are not as clear cut and as simple as people think. There is far more involved in and around this whole subject and how it will affect Irish and NH rugby in the not too distant future. Anyone who cant see this, is, well, being slightly naive, to be honest. Just some of my thoughts.

Thanks again.

Gibson wrote:.
I was informed that as long as they finish their careers in Ireland - it still applies.

Yes maybe but the more tax they pay in the more rebate they will get back therefore it doesn't make economic sense to leave. TOL's agent recently said he'd be much better of over a 10 year period if he stayed in Ireland than if he went to Toulon.

The other factor is that players who go abroad jeapordise their Ireland chances. That is a huge incentive to stay in Ireland.

But the best of the Ulster boys do not go abraod and they do not benefit from the tax rebate.

The only top players who have left in recent years were N. Best, Wilson and Bowe - none left for financial reasons.

Any amount of sacred (tax efficient) cows will have to be slaughtered in order to maintain the EZ.

And no amount of referenda will change that.

But back to Gibbo's OP - I still say that self-interest will be overwhelmed by the majority over the successful.

Portnoy wrote:But back to Gibbo's OP - I still say that self-interest will be overwhelmed by the majority over the successful.

Sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. Can you please let me know?

Portnoy wrote:Any amount of sacred (tax efficient) cows will have to be slaughtered in order to maintain the EZ.

That's so last year Portnoy...the Euro is fine these days man...Greek democracy and 1st world living standards been sacrificed so we can all live happily ever after....

geoff998rugby wrote:But the best of the Ulster boys do not go abraod and they do not benefit from the tax rebate.

The only top players who have left in recent years were N. Best, Wilson and Bowe - none left for financial reasons.

I was reading an interesting article sometime back, it was an interview with Rafa Nadal. In the interview he was stating that it was proving quite expensive playing in the 3 UK tornaments (Queens, Wimbledon & Barclays) as all prize money earned in the UK at these events was subject to UK tax.

I was just wondering if (based on a reverse of the above) players from Ulster who make the national side can split their income. So they would have one income stream directly apportioned to games they play for Ulster, for which they would not receive any rebate.
But the other stream would be directly apportioned to international games - were they could possibly claim that this is money earned in the south and therefore this cash would be eligible for the rebate as all games are played in Dublin.

I reckon this could definitely be done by the centrally contracted players

Feckless Rogue wrote:History tells us that every nations is looking after number 1. Itself. You could accuse the English of being better at it than others in the past, but you can't accuse them of being the only ones pushing for their own interests.

I've always considered the French to be the most self interested, self important nations there is.

Don't forget that the French have done more for spreading rugby around the world than any other nation before you say that.

gowales wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:History tells us that every nations is looking after number 1. Itself. You could accuse the English of being better at it than others in the past, but you can't accuse them of being the only ones pushing for their own interests.

I've always considered the French to be the most self interested, self important nations there is.

Don't forget that the French have done more for spreading rugby around the world than any other nation before you say that.

Fair point. I believe they've played Argentina more than anyone else for one thing.

roddersm wrote:

Portnoy wrote:Any amount of sacred (tax efficient) cows will have to be slaughtered in order to maintain the EZ.

That's so last year Portnoy...the Euro is fine these days man...Greek democracy and 1st world living standards been sacrificed so we can all live happily ever after....

The Euro is up sh!te creek from what I hear and its only a matter of time before it fails completely.