France vs Ireland match thread.

[Biltong]

First topic message reminder :

France: C Poitrenaud (Toulouse), V Clerc (Toulouse), A Rougerie (Clermont Auvergne), W Fofana (Clermont Auvergne), J Malzieu (Clermont Auvergne), F Trinh-Duc (Montpellier), M Parra (Clermont Auvergne), JB Poux (Toulouse), D Szarzewski (Stade Francais), N Mas (Perpignan), P Pape (Stade Francais), Y Maestri (Toulouse), T Dusautoir (Toulouse), J Bonnaire (Clermont Auvergne), I Harinordoquy (Biarritz)

Replacements: W Servat (Toulouse), V Debaty (Clermont Auvergne), L Nallet (Racing Metro), L Picamoles (Toulouse), J Dupuy (Stade Francais), L Beauxis (Toulouse), M Mermoz (Perpignan)

Ireland: R Kearney (Leinster); T Bowe (Ospreys), K Earls (Munster), G D'Arcy (Leinster), A Trimble (Ulster); J Sexton (Leinster), C Murray (Munster); C Healy (Leinster), R Best (Ulster), M Ross (Leinster), D O'Callaghan (Munster), P O'Connell (Munster), S Ferris (Ulster), S O'Brien (Leinster), J Heaslip (Leinster)

Replacements: S Cronin (Leinster), T Court (Ulster), D Ryan (Munster), P O'Mahony (Munster), E Reddan (Leinster), R O'Gara (Munster), F McFadden (Leinster)


After a nice exhausting weekend by the dam, I am at least back early enough to watch this match.

Irealand is up against it, but the French have not yet played a team in great form so this one might go either way.

Good luck to me Irish mates.

Of course I will be supporting the boys in green.

[eirebilly]

I dont think that the Welsh defence is any better or worse than Irelands to be honest. I just think that Wales have the better attacking options. Other than that they are very similar sides.

[Biltong]

I think you Irish are far too negative and harsh on your team.

Biltong exasperation is boiling over. We believe we are underperforming, and have been since 2010. We believe the problem is the head coach. I'm sure you know how that feels.

Imagine the SARU gave PDV a new two year contract before the World Cup. He then failed at the quarter final stage, but carried on as head coach with all the same problems remaining.

You'd be frustrated too.

I understand all too well, but somewhere inbetween all this frustration, you forgot that you have only beaten France in
paris 3 times since they became a wolrd force. The draw must cout for something. Yeah, you feel dissapponted becuase you had a decent lead halftime, but rather look at the two or three thing that went wrong and decide whether you can blame the players or Kidney for that.

The first try France scored was a fluke, it was because an uncontrolled ball in the Franch backline was an attmepted hack through which bounced wrong and you backline came in to collect, the ball to Fofana was a clean line to the score. Tactically Ireland could have stayed back, but then you might want to blame them for being conservative, they wanted to pounce and it went wrong.

Sure the discipline was perhaps the reason you lost in the end.

But it isn;t all negative.

[Gibson]

I dont think that the Welsh defence is any better or worse than Irelands to be honest. I just think that Wales have the better attacking options. Other than that they are very similar sides.

So true. But, for an oude genever... can you spot the real difference between us?

[eirebilly]

I dont think that the Welsh defence is any better or worse than Irelands to be honest. I just think that Wales have the better attacking options. Other than that they are very similar sides.

So true. But, for an oude genever... can you spot the real difference between us?

Yep, 1 thing mate

[geoff999rugby]

I think Ireland can take great pride in the forward performance and the defensive performance. If we had played with the same defensive plan against WQales we probably would have won.

However a worry for me in that of the starting team only Bowe and Kearney performed well in the backs - the rest were poor (although Sexton tackled magnificancely).

[slartibartfast]

How jammy was the French try?

[Gibson]

I dont think that the Welsh defence is any better or worse than Irelands to be honest. I just think that Wales have the better attacking options. Other than that they are very similar sides.

So true. But, for an oude genever... can you spot the real difference between us?

Yep, 1 thing mate

CJ was roysh. You are possibly the fairest and most enlightened, rugby poster on here.

Six-Mile-Bridge tart.

[Glas a du]

If you'd have played that well against us, we wouldn't have had a chance.

[dublin_dave]

biltong- trust me mate we are not.

im a reasonable person but we have flattered to deceive for the last 18mths. yes we have had one off great victories but i do not get any sense we are developing. they have papered over the cracks.

today was a massively gutsy performance but tactically we invited them on to us and we were inpicked in the end

results and performances would prove me right.

[Rory_Gallagher]

If you'd have played that well against us, we wouldn't have had a chance.

I am going to assume this is sarcasm, but if not, I don't agree. Wales are very dangerous on the attack, unlike us (Ignore if your name is Rob Kearney or Tommy Bowe).

[dublin_dave]

the french try had an element of fortune but ultimately came from a poor kick down the middle and earls inexplicably fresh airing a fly hack when he should have gone down at it.

again players are thinking territory territory territory.

no changes for scotland im guessing..

[Glas a du]

If you'd have played that well against us, we wouldn't have had a chance.

I am going to assume this is sarcasm, but if not, I don't agree. Wales are very dangerous on the attack, unlike us (Ignore if your name is Rob Kearney or Tommy Bowe).

You assume wrong. You did what I thought you could not do and subdued the French.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Kidney comes in for a lot of criticism, some of it unfair. For a start our precision hasn't been as good since Brian McLaughlin left the international setup as skills coach. Secondly we desperately need a backs coach- desperately. Mike Ruddock is the obvious candidate and I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the reigns after this campaign if Kidney retains his job. Thirdly, Kidney got the tactics absolutely spot on today. I would love to see us play more attacking rugby and use our backs more, but this wasn't a day for that. He cannot be blamed for Sexton's poor kicking, Best and the lineout not operating very well, and the ill discipline at the breakdown.

There are many things Kidney is doing wrong in our opinions, that is, a bunch of keyboard warriors who haven't the faintest idea what goes on behind the scenes yet pretend too. Honestly, some of the reaction to this match has been embarrassing and is worthy of footballers not rugby fans. But hey hum, give some fair-weathered fans a taste of success and they jump on the band wagon and off as quickly as they can again.

If we lose against Scotland, which we might very well do given their physicality and the pounding we took today then the pressure will be on Kidney. Lose against England and I think he may be out of a job. I for one will be thankful for what he has done for the team. Some posters really need to catch a grip.

The margins are tiny with this team. We squeaked to a grand slam by a metre against Wales, with the aid of the referee against France and a dreadful performance against Scotland. Had it not been for a very poor referee decision against Wales (who were the better team and deserved to win on the day), the we will still be undefeated. Those are the margins.

[Rory_Gallagher]

I think having incredible defence, and being dangerous on the attack are not mutually exclusive.

[Glas a du]

I agree that you can't have a good attack without a good defence, but you can have a good defence and very poor attack.

[tecphobe]

Have we become spoilt by the success of the provinces? Ireland will beat Scotland AND England probably. Ireland are not as good as we think. We have some very good players and some very average ones. Sadly some of the average ones are all in the same position. Declan kidney did not cause Gordon Darcy to drop the ball or Heaslip or Rory Best to miss a couple of lineout throws. Some people seam to take pleasure in ireland losing so they can kick Kidney.

[Gibson]

Kidney comes in for a lot of criticism, some of it unfair. For a start our precision hasn't been as good since Brian McLaughlin left the international setup as skills coach. Secondly we desperately need a backs coach- desperately. Mike Ruddock is the obvious candidate and I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the reigns after this campaign if Kidney retains his job. Thirdly, Kidney got the tactics absolutely spot on today. I would love to see us play more attacking rugby and use our backs more, but this wasn't a day for that. He cannot be blamed for Sexton's poor kicking, Best and the lineout not operating very well, and the ill discipline at the breakdown.

There are many things Kidney is doing wrong in our opinions, that is, a bunch of keyboard warriors who haven't the faintest idea what goes on behind the scenes yet pretend too. Honestly, some of the reaction to this match has been embarrassing and is worthy of footballers not rugby fans. But hey hum, give some fair-weathered fans a taste of success and they jump on the band wagon and off as quickly as they can again.

If we lose against Scotland, which we might very well do given their physicality and the pounding we took today then the pressure will be on Kidney. Lose against England and I think he may be out of a job. I for one will be thankful for what he has done for the team. Some posters really need to catch a grip.

The margins are tiny with this team. We squeaked to a grand slam by a metre against Wales, with the aid of the referee against France and a dreadful performance against Scotland. Had it not been for a very poor referee decision against Wales (who were the better team and deserved to win on the day), the we will still be undefeated. Those are the margins.

OK. Fair points. But. Do you think Kidney is good enough to take this team forward? No fence-sitting. No waffle. Some of us DO care. I have. For 40 years.

[Standulstermen]

Haven't read the thread in case it taints my perception but massively disappointed. Yes we fronted up well and a lot of positives to be taken but we played a lot less rugby than france did and from that point of view can have no complaints.

Healy- did well at scrum and a handful in the loose. Good showing
Best- unfortunately his poorest darts fir a year. Magnificent around the park but darts are wh he is there
Ross- conspicuous by ho much he put in outside the scrum. Excellent I thought and I felt Ireland were unlucky not to get a couple of penalties at scrum time.
DOC- not massively effective for me. Doesn't deserve the place over Ryan who offers more going forward. Not bad though.
POC- couple of poor knock ons but led a very good forward performance.
Ferris- used more defensively an offensively and was key to a few turnover including heaslips last one. What a charge down!
SOB- again defensively sound and slightly more conspicuous offesively. Good shift. Looked unhappy at coming off
Heaslip- the least effective of the backrow until that crucial turnover at the end but how vital was that. Was guilty of going for a choke tackle with ROG and conceding 10 yards prior to that though
Murray- no complaints. Spot on defensively and if he hesitated at times I think it was because our whole attack was a mess. Hopefully ok.
Sexton- poor miss at the start but decent otherwise.
Bowe- rubbing my hands together with glee as an Ulstermen. Standout wing thus far.... Sorry George.
D'arcy-nothing wrong reall but not conducive to an attacking game. Has no future at international level. Getting like the Hayes selection IMO.
Earls- solid. Good showing for me, he isn't a 13 but stood up well. Credit to him.
Trimble- worst of the backs for me. Nothing seemed to go for him. Needs to stop going high on big men and just focus on nailing them.
Kearney- I felt he was a two culpable for underestimating the pace of fofana but imperious otherwise. Back to lions form IMO. Just wish he had license to back himself more.

We scored an intercept, and a wonderful individual score from Bowe but showed relatively little in attack otherwise. We are still stagnant IMO and no points in the 2ndhalf is very poor. Not too disheartened with the result but it isn't a ringing endorsement either.

[Gibson]

Stand.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

So I missed this one, who won guys?

[MrsP]

"D'arcy-nothing wrong reall but not conducive to an attacking game. Has no future at international level. Getting like the Hayes selection IMO.
Earls- solid. Good showing for me, he isn't a 13 but stood up well. Credit to him.
Trimble- worst of the backs for me. Nothing seemed to go for him. Needs to stop going high on big men and just focus on nailing them."

Darcy inexplicably dropped the ball in one of real attacks we had and did not much else.

If we continue to operate a "Drift Offence" no winger will be able to do much.

Maybe time to look at the players eating up the space rather than the wing?

[Standulstermen]

MrsP.

Not going overboard on Trimble who I rate but from he flew up on bonnaire he was poor. Had the chance to nail the guy but instead tried to suplex him by the looks of it. Things didn't go his way thereof.

D'arce is gone and his selection reflects the conservative nature of the coach. Earls was ok for a guy that isn't a 13. Good result given our history but given the gift of 7 points and the ludicrously good play that got us another 7 I thought we were poor.

[mystiroakey]

i have a feeling both sets of fans are gonna feel abit gutted about the draw!!

good game though!

this surely must be the tightest 6n's in terms of teams quality for yonks

[Standulstermen]

If Ireland's defensive intensity we like that against Wales was same as today it would be a lot closer. A it is I think Wales will deservedly take the slam.

[dublin_dave]

any word on fitzgerald or caves fitness?

[Standulstermen]

Cave is fit.

[MrsP]

Cave is fit.

But hasn't played since his injury unless he's had a club game?

[KiaRose]

Kidney comes in for a lot of criticism, some of it unfair. For a start our precision hasn't been as good since Brian McLaughlin left the international setup as skills coach. Secondly we desperately need a backs coach- desperately. Mike Ruddock is the obvious candidate and I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the reigns after this campaign if Kidney retains his job. Thirdly, Kidney got the tactics absolutely spot on today. I would love to see us play more attacking rugby and use our backs more, but this wasn't a day for that. He cannot be blamed for Sexton's poor kicking, Best and the lineout not operating very well, and the ill discipline at the breakdown.

There are many things Kidney is doing wrong in our opinions, that is, a bunch of keyboard warriors who haven't the faintest idea what goes on behind the scenes yet pretend too. Honestly, some of the reaction to this match has been embarrassing and is worthy of footballers not rugby fans. But hey hum, give some fair-weathered fans a taste of success and they jump on the band wagon and off as quickly as they can again.

If we lose against Scotland, which we might very well do given their physicality and the pounding we took today then the pressure will be on Kidney. Lose against England and I think he may be out of a job. I for one will be thankful for what he has done for the team. Some posters really need to catch a grip.

The margins are tiny with this team. We squeaked to a grand slam by a metre against Wales, with the aid of the referee against France and a dreadful performance against Scotland. Had it not been for a very poor referee decision against Wales (who were the better team and deserved to win on the day), the we will still be undefeated. Those are the margins.

OK. Fair points. But. Do you think Kidney is good enough to take this team forward? No fence-sitting. No waffle. Some of us DO care. I have. For 40 years.

I agree with a lot of what Hookisms says above. I haven't put anything on this thread because I am fed up with posters blaming DK. Three years ago he could do no wrong, now ...

Last year I was critical of DK keeping Luke Fitz on the team and TOL as both were out of form. But the question was, was it better to give them a chance to play themselves into form or just drop them and risk hitting their confidence levels severely? OK, so neither went to NZ for RWC, but one thing DK said when he came in as coach was that his remit was to build a squad. Ireland have limited options in a number of positions. We are seeing it again at the moment, D'Arcy is not up to international level 12 any more. The coaching team (ALL of them not just DK) have seen the other 12s in the provinces. Perhaps they genuinely believe that D'Arcy is the best of a not very inspiring bunch. (Some of) the Ulster posters on here would have us believe that P Wallace is the greatest 12 playing rugby at the moment (slight exagerration, but you take my point) yet this very high opinion of him is not shared by many outside of Ulster. So who to put in instead of D'Arcy?

The back row has not been functioning - we don't have a genuine 7. Yet, Heaslip, Ferris and SOB are all very good BR players. They just simply don't meld into a good unit. (Having said that they were better today). So what to do? I personally believe that Heaslip hasn't played a decent game in the green shirt since he was red-carded in NZ a few years ago. He has been (relatively) off form for Leinster as well, although he does seem to be coming back into form there. So Kidney sticks with the players who he knows CAN perform (remember the mantra from the old 606 - "Form is temporary, class is permanent"). Is this being over-conservative? Probably yes, but if he keeps chopping and changing, Ireland will end up in a situation not unlike the England cricket team of a few years ago where a different eleven seem to take the field for every test (and seemed to lose most of them).

Yes I would like to see a few changes - drop Heaslip; put SOB in as 8 (or Chris Henry?); play POM at 7.
Drop D'Arcy; the ROG/Sexton 10/12 axis seems to work, although we didn't see enough of it today to really judge. However, if Ireland want to control territory, I don't think Sexton is the OH to do it. How about moving Sexton permanently to 12 and looking at the two Ians (madigan and Keatley) to take over as Ireland's 10s?

Kearney is back to his best form, something we haven't seen for a while, even allowing for injuries. This is a positive.

Rumour has it that some players were genuinely playing for their positions today. Might this have been the spur they needed to produce as they haven't done for a while? It would be great to see some significant changes for next week. Conor Murray will be replaced (poor lad), Boss on the bench? Or TOL? Or Strings for a last hurrah?

In reply to Gibbo's question - Is Kidney the man to take Ireland to the next level? Well, all I can say to that is he did it with Munster ...

Sack Kidney now - and who do you replace him with? England are out there getting the pick of those available at the moment. Munster are hunting too. Do Ireland end up third in the queue of a not very big pool of top-class international coaches? (I mention Munster in the same breath as England because some of the candidates being touted for the England job are also being mentioned as possibilities for Munster).

Good night all

[tecphobe]

Kidney comes in for a lot of criticism, some of it unfair. For a start our precision hasn't been as good since Brian McLaughlin left the international setup as skills coach. Secondly we desperately need a backs coach- desperately. Mike Ruddock is the obvious candidate and I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the reigns after this campaign if Kidney retains his job. Thirdly, Kidney got the tactics absolutely spot on today. I would love to see us play more attacking rugby and use our backs more, but this wasn't a day for that. He cannot be blamed for Sexton's poor kicking, Best and the lineout not operating very well, and the ill discipline at the breakdown.

There are many things Kidney is doing wrong in our opinions, that is, a bunch of keyboard warriors who haven't the faintest idea what goes on behind the scenes yet pretend too. Honestly, some of the reaction to this match has been embarrassing and is worthy of footballers not rugby fans. But hey hum, give some fair-weathered fans a taste of success and they jump on the band wagon and off as quickly as they can again.

If we lose against Scotland, which we might very well do given their physicality and the pounding we took today then the pressure will be on Kidney. Lose against England and I think he may be out of a job. I for one will be thankful for what he has done for the team. Some posters really need to catch a grip.

The margins are tiny with this team. We squeaked to a grand slam by a metre against Wales, with the aid of the referee against France and a dreadful performance against Scotland. Had it not been for a very poor referee decision against Wales (who were the better team and deserved to win on the day), the we will still be undefeated. Those are the margins.

OK. Fair points. But. Do you think Kidney is good enough to take this team forward? No fence-sitting. No waffle. Some of us DO care. I have. For 40 years.

Yes i do. Ireland need a backs coach and a replacement for Darcy. Personally I would like Bod to come out and state he's not comnig back as well

[dublin_dave]

great. lets hope he gets some gametime. wouldnt hold my breath.

[maestegmafia]

Here is the PR vote on the result of the match... pretty close game was called.

http://www.planetrugby.com/poll/results/0,26151,309328,00.html

[MrsP]

Kia,

Have a look at Ulster's match from Friday night to see what us Ulster fans mean. Now, I know an injury and 6 Nations depleated Edinburgh ain't France but still.

Mind you at the moment I'm quite happy for Mr Kidney to ignore our Paddy. We need him in White!

[miteyironpaw]

Fantastically absorbing game. Well done to both teams, it was one of those games nobody deserved to lose.

I thought Earls showed he has finally found international form, and Fofana was real handful.

It allows me to smugly point out that I predicted a draw. I just wished I'd predicted it on the official thread for predicting results.

[Standulstermen]

Sorry KIA but the rrelevance of the grand slam is lost given the changes in the international game. Let's get Harry williams in, sure he won a European cup.be it 3 years or 13 years ago it isnt relevant because the game has changed and the premium is on attacking prowess. We don't have it and we haven't had it in nearly two years now.

We scored off an intercept And one piece of magic. All we did was throw the ball from left to right and rely on Bowe doing something. We had a spell of ten minutes with good possession in the French half/22 in the 2nd half and not once did we look like crossing the line. Not acceptable.

We don't know who Is out there just as we didn't all know Joe Schmidt before he coached Leinster. Kidney will probably get the NZ tour but other than asking rob Kearney to regather up and unders I fail go see what we are bringing to the game.

[KiaRose]

I didn't mentione the GS, Stand. I mentioned about Kidney coaching a Munster team through the disappointments of two lost finals before winning the HEC. We have seen it elsewhere - Dean Ryan in Gloster, turned out a very good team which made it to a number of finals, but just couldn't get over the line to win. It's the experience of winning after disappointments that I was writing of.

[The Great Aukster]

Stand - The problems in Ireland's back division were all in midfield. Zero penetration and leaky defence. D'Arcy yet again was poor and showed that two wee guys cannot trouble well organised defences unless they can dive through a gap.

Sexton was poor enough in his decision making but put in some great tackles, and still needs to be persevered with as ROG looks a beaten docket.

If Kidney keeps picking GDA at 12 he is leaving himself open to criticism. No one knows why he keeps picking DOC to start either, and again if he persists his nous has to be under question.

Ireland were lucky that Healy wasn't binned and maybe also should have had a yellow for weight of penalties. A YC would have opened a floodgate for France given their obvious superiority in the second half, so there isn't any comfort to be had in "winning" two tries to one.

BTW I'm a big fan of Tommy but his second try was very lucky. He should have passed inside to Kearney rather than kick, but he got a lucky bounce so it didn't matter.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Kidney comes in for a lot of criticism, some of it unfair. For a start our precision hasn't been as good since Brian McLaughlin left the international setup as skills coach. Secondly we desperately need a backs coach- desperately. Mike Ruddock is the obvious candidate and I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the reigns after this campaign if Kidney retains his job. Thirdly, Kidney got the tactics absolutely spot on today. I would love to see us play more attacking rugby and use our backs more, but this wasn't a day for that. He cannot be blamed for Sexton's poor kicking, Best and the lineout not operating very well, and the ill discipline at the breakdown.

There are many things Kidney is doing wrong in our opinions, that is, a bunch of keyboard warriors who haven't the faintest idea what goes on behind the scenes yet pretend too. Honestly, some of the reaction to this match has been embarrassing and is worthy of footballers not rugby fans. But hey hum, give some fair-weathered fans a taste of success and they jump on the band wagon and off as quickly as they can again.

If we lose against Scotland, which we might very well do given their physicality and the pounding we took today then the pressure will be on Kidney. Lose against England and I think he may be out of a job. I for one will be thankful for what he has done for the team. Some posters really need to catch a grip.

The margins are tiny with this team. We squeaked to a grand slam by a metre against Wales, with the aid of the referee against France and a dreadful performance against Scotland. Had it not been for a very poor referee decision against Wales (who were the better team and deserved to win on the day), the we will still be undefeated. Those are the margins.

OK. Fair points. But. Do you think Kidney is good enough to take this team forward? No fence-sitting. No waffle. Some of us DO care. I have. For 40 years.

I agree with a lot of what Hookisms says above. I haven't put anything on this thread because I am fed up with posters blaming DK. Three years ago he could do no wrong, now ...

Last year I was critical of DK keeping Luke Fitz on the team and TOL as both were out of form. But the question was, was it better to give them a chance to play themselves into form or just drop them and risk hitting their confidence levels severely? OK, so neither went to NZ for RWC, but one thing DK said when he came in as coach was that his remit was to build a squad. Ireland have limited options in a number of positions. We are seeing it again at the moment, D'Arcy is not up to international level 12 any more. The coaching team (ALL of them not just DK) have seen the other 12s in the provinces. Perhaps they genuinely believe that D'Arcy is the best of a not very inspiring bunch. (Some of) the Ulster posters on here would have us believe that P Wallace is the greatest 12 playing rugby at the moment (slight exagerration, but you take my point) yet this very high opinion of him is not shared by many outside of Ulster. So who to put in instead of D'Arcy?

The back row has not been functioning - we don't have a genuine 7. Yet, Heaslip, Ferris and SOB are all very good BR players. They just simply don't meld into a good unit. (Having said that they were better today). So what to do? I personally believe that Heaslip hasn't played a decent game in the green shirt since he was red-carded in NZ a few years ago. He has been (relatively) off form for Leinster as well, although he does seem to be coming back into form there. So Kidney sticks with the players who he knows CAN perform (remember the mantra from the old 606 - "Form is temporary, class is permanent"). Is this being over-conservative? Probably yes, but if he keeps chopping and changing, Ireland will end up in a situation not unlike the England cricket team of a few years ago where a different eleven seem to take the field for every test (and seemed to lose most of them).

Yes I would like to see a few changes - drop Heaslip; put SOB in as 8 (or Chris Henry?); play POM at 7.
Drop D'Arcy; the ROG/Sexton 10/12 axis seems to work, although we didn't see enough of it today to really judge. However, if Ireland want to control territory, I don't think Sexton is the OH to do it. How about moving Sexton permanently to 12 and looking at the two Ians (madigan and Keatley) to take over as Ireland's 10s?

Kearney is back to his best form, something we haven't seen for a while, even allowing for injuries. This is a positive.

Rumour has it that some players were genuinely playing for their positions today. Might this have been the spur they needed to produce as they haven't done for a while? It would be great to see some significant changes for next week. Conor Murray will be replaced (poor lad), Boss on the bench? Or TOL? Or Strings for a last hurrah?

In reply to Gibbo's question - Is Kidney the man to take Ireland to the next level? Well, all I can say to that is he did it with Munster ...

Sack Kidney now - and who do you replace him with? England are out there getting the pick of those available at the moment. Munster are hunting too. Do Ireland end up third in the queue of a not very big pool of top-class international coaches? (I mention Munster in the same breath as England because some of the candidates being touted for the England job are also being mentioned as possibilities for Munster).

Good night all

It's hard not to fence sit on this one Gibson. You asked the question so it's only fair I answer it honestly. Yes, I still believe that Kidney is the man for the job. I do think he needs to freshen up his coaching squad. That means Les Kiss does one job, not two that are completely different facets of the game. We need a backs coach, and that man for me is Mike Ruddock. I like his philosophy on the game and he is already within the Irish setup.

Kidney has some problems that are not of his making. He is weak in the prop department to the extent that we pray that Mike Ross doesn't get injured ever. The fact that Mike Ross adds absolutely nothing around the pitch and is blatantly unfit means we are playing with a seven man pack. Secondly, we lack a player in the mould of McCaw, Pocock or Warburton. Jennings are an excellent player at provincial level and makes the Leinster backrow tick. It is he that helps to free up O'Brien to carry the ball effectively, and helps Reddan get the ball away quicker and acts as a superb linkman. But he simply isn't good enough at international level. So what are the options? Persist with trying to play his best three individuals in O'Brien, Ferris and Heaslip? Who on earth can blame Kidney for doing that? It's the Irish dream team there. I think he has given it approximately, what, eight matches? So he has given it a chance to develop and theres a perfectly good argument to be made that he give it until the end of the championship to see if he can mould it into a unit. As an Ulster fan I would like to see Henry given a chance. Many Munster fans would like O'Mahony thrown in there. So what happens if in two games it is not a resounding success? Do we abandon it to revolving door selection policies? Then we become just like England 2003-2012. Where has that got them?

Another issue is the centres. D'Arcy is the hate flavour of the month. But who replaces him. McFadden? A player who cannot disrupt him at provincial level, that is the level below international level? Lunacy. Kidney has the problem that is the making of the provinces. Leinster have BOD and D'Arcy. Munster have had two foreigners (as they did under Kidney). Ulster have Wallace, who is playing very well but outside the province is basically butchered by fans due to a poor decision that butchered a try against Wales last year. Wallace is the victim of a selection policy whereby he sits on the bench more often than not, covering two positions but rarely gets on the pitch. He is the Owen Hargreaves of pre World Cup 2006, booed by his own fans. The bile that goes on these boards in endemic of the problems amongst Irish fans and a sad reflection on them. Spense, O'Malley and company haven't nailed down provincial places and in truth don't look consistently good enough at that level never mind international level. So let's pick on form then. The Irish centres should be Whitten and Wallace. Hands up, outside of Ulster, who wants that partnership? You'll also noted I havent mentioned Connaught here. Wales see fit to pick players from their worst province who have been a revelation at international level. Maybe Kidney needs to be braver in selection.

Finally, we see fit to blame Kidney and not the players. Why has it not occured to anyone that some players are just not quite up to the task at this level. Take Sexton for instance. His decision making is often poor and his kicking out of hand more often than not is not good enough at this level. Yes, he does it for Leinster. But he plays behind a pack playing at a less intense level who clear out rucks quicker, playing against much inferior and less physical packs than that of France, Scotland, Wales and England (though probably not Italy). Reddan can get the ball away quicker, Sexton has more time to think about his decisions and more time to execute them. He doesn't get that time at international level.

We really need to catch ourselves on her. Sure Kidney is making mistakes. O'Callaghan probably should be on the bench, but is he really so bad that his form demands he gets dropped? That is questionable. I think he should have picked Reddan at 9 given his partnership with 2/3 of the backrow and his 10. But other than that he has a very difficult task, and until some fans take their heads out of the sand about the realities of the game, the more nonsense we will see spouted here.

[SecretFly]

[Do you think Kidney is good enough to take this team forward? No fence-sitting. No waffle. Some of us DO care. I have. For 40 years.

Yes i do. Ireland need a backs coach and a replacement for Darcy. Personally I would like Bod to come out and state he's not comnig back as well

So we blame a man that isn't even in the side for not saying he won't be back..and we absolve a coach who is getting well paid to keep great players looking so at sea in many of the finer requirements of International rugby? BOD, you messed up our chance of a win in Paris!

So Kidney didn't do the actual coaching. So Kidney didn't do the running, the kicking or the wayward throwing. Great. I accept that. He manages though. He is responsible for the coaches he brought to the Ireland set up and the players he chooses to play his gameplan. He's not responsible for the detail of matchday, he IS responsible for those tasked with the duty to provide that detail. That's the deal he signs when he accepts the biggest coaching job on this island - responsibility for success or failure.

Right now criticisms are justified. Our coaches, the ones he has been responsible for hiring have failed - that includes Kiss, Small, Gaffney and now Feek. So many coaches that promise more and yet when they join this particular team, like the players themselves, they underperform? Something is wrong - something is not right. Ignoring that fact won't make the lack of real design disappear.

No real design and we'll continue to struggle and look sloppy.

[Rory_Gallagher]

For the people who moan about the criticism of Kidney, with the usual argument; "It isn't Kidney's fault the players did such and such".. if you actually read what most people on here say, nobody has shifted player mistakes onto Kidney. That isn't the problem, these little errors. They need to be worked on, but that isn't why the majority of fans are frustrated.

The fact is, our attack is SO poor and has been for so long. We have some of the most talented backs in the game, and we do nothing with them. Kidney wants us to play the same old game-plan, which is very much outdated. Hearing what he says after games, and during team selections, you can tell his tactics aren't going to change. If you honestly think these tactics are what Ireland need to move forward with, then I really don't know what to say. But IMO Ireland have some of the most talented backs in the game. Lets use them, eh Kidney?

[Rory_Gallagher]

Also hookisms, you neglected to mention the main problem with Kidney and what he is doing with Ireland in the entirety of that post. None of the reasons you have mentioned are the problem. Yes, Kidney is criticised for his selections, but really you can change the entire team all you want and nothing is going to improve all that much. That isn't the real issue here.

[hugo124]

Kidney comes in for a lot of criticism, some of it unfair. For a start our precision hasn't been as good since Brian McLaughlin left the international setup as skills coach. Secondly we desperately need a backs coach- desperately. Mike Ruddock is the obvious candidate and I wouldn't be surprised to see him take the reigns after this campaign if Kidney retains his job. Thirdly, Kidney got the tactics absolutely spot on today. I would love to see us play more attacking rugby and use our backs more, but this wasn't a day for that. He cannot be blamed for Sexton's poor kicking, Best and the lineout not operating very well, and the ill discipline at the breakdown.

There are many things Kidney is doing wrong in our opinions, that is, a bunch of keyboard warriors who haven't the faintest idea what goes on behind the scenes yet pretend too. Honestly, some of the reaction to this match has been embarrassing and is worthy of footballers not rugby fans. But hey hum, give some fair-weathered fans a taste of success and they jump on the band wagon and off as quickly as they can again.

If we lose against Scotland, which we might very well do given their physicality and the pounding we took today then the pressure will be on Kidney. Lose against England and I think he may be out of a job. I for one will be thankful for what he has done for the team. Some posters really need to catch a grip.

The margins are tiny with this team. We squeaked to a grand slam by a metre against Wales, with the aid of the referee against France and a dreadful performance against Scotland. Had it not been for a very poor referee decision against Wales (who were the better team and deserved to win on the day), the we will still be undefeated. Those are the margins.

OK. Fair points. But. Do you think Kidney is good enough to take this team forward? No fence-sitting. No waffle. Some of us DO care. I have. For 40 years.

I agree with a lot of what Hookisms says above. I haven't put anything on this thread because I am fed up with posters blaming DK. Three years ago he could do no wrong, now ...

Last year I was critical of DK keeping Luke Fitz on the team and TOL as both were out of form. But the question was, was it better to give them a chance to play themselves into form or just drop them and risk hitting their confidence levels severely? OK, so neither went to NZ for RWC, but one thing DK said when he came in as coach was that his remit was to build a squad. Ireland have limited options in a number of positions. We are seeing it again at the moment, D'Arcy is not up to international level 12 any more. The coaching team (ALL of them not just DK) have seen the other 12s in the provinces. Perhaps they genuinely believe that D'Arcy is the best of a not very inspiring bunch. (Some of) the Ulster posters on here would have us believe that P Wallace is the greatest 12 playing rugby at the moment (slight exagerration, but you take my point) yet this very high opinion of him is not shared by many outside of Ulster. So who to put in instead of D'Arcy?

The back row has not been functioning - we don't have a genuine 7. Yet, Heaslip, Ferris and SOB are all very good BR players. They just simply don't meld into a good unit. (Having said that they were better today). So what to do? I personally believe that Heaslip hasn't played a decent game in the green shirt since he was red-carded in NZ a few years ago. He has been (relatively) off form for Leinster as well, although he does seem to be coming back into form there. So Kidney sticks with the players who he knows CAN perform (remember the mantra from the old 606 - "Form is temporary, class is permanent"). Is this being over-conservative? Probably yes, but if he keeps chopping and changing, Ireland will end up in a situation not unlike the England cricket team of a few years ago where a different eleven seem to take the field for every test (and seemed to lose most of them).

Yes I would like to see a few changes - drop Heaslip; put SOB in as 8 (or Chris Henry?); play POM at 7.
Drop D'Arcy; the ROG/Sexton 10/12 axis seems to work, although we didn't see enough of it today to really judge. However, if Ireland want to control territory, I don't think Sexton is the OH to do it. How about moving Sexton permanently to 12 and looking at the two Ians (madigan and Keatley) to take over as Ireland's 10s?

Kearney is back to his best form, something we haven't seen for a while, even allowing for injuries. This is a positive.

Rumour has it that some players were genuinely playing for their positions today. Might this have been the spur they needed to produce as they haven't done for a while? It would be great to see some significant changes for next week. Conor Murray will be replaced (poor lad), Boss on the bench? Or TOL? Or Strings for a last hurrah?

In reply to Gibbo's question - Is Kidney the man to take Ireland to the next level? Well, all I can say to that is he did it with Munster ...

Sack Kidney now - and who do you replace him with? England are out there getting the pick of those available at the moment. Munster are hunting too. Do Ireland end up third in the queue of a not very big pool of top-class international coaches? (I mention Munster in the same breath as England because some of the candidates being touted for the England job are also being mentioned as possibilities for Munster).

Good night all

It's hard not to fence sit on this one Gibson. You asked the question so it's only fair I answer it honestly. Yes, I still believe that Kidney is the man for the job. I do think he needs to freshen up his coaching squad. That means Les Kiss does one job, not two that are completely different facets of the game. We need a backs coach, and that man for me is Mike Ruddock. I like his philosophy on the game and he is already within the Irish setup.

Kidney has some problems that are not of his making. He is weak in the prop department to the extent that we pray that Mike Ross doesn't get injured ever. The fact that Mike Ross adds absolutely nothing around the pitch and is blatantly unfit means we are playing with a seven man pack. Secondly, we lack a player in the mould of McCaw, Pocock or Warburton. Jennings are an excellent player at provincial level and makes the Leinster backrow tick. It is he that helps to free up O'Brien to carry the ball effectively, and helps Reddan get the ball away quicker and acts as a superb linkman. But he simply isn't good enough at international level. So what are the options? Persist with trying to play his best three individuals in O'Brien, Ferris and Heaslip? Who on earth can blame Kidney for doing that? It's the Irish dream team there. I think he has given it approximately, what, eight matches? So he has given it a chance to develop and theres a perfectly good argument to be made that he give it until the end of the championship to see if he can mould it into a unit. As an Ulster fan I would like to see Henry given a chance. Many Munster fans would like O'Mahony thrown in there. So what happens if in two games it is not a resounding success? Do we abandon it to revolving door selection policies? Then we become just like England 2003-2012. Where has that got them?

Another issue is the centres. D'Arcy is the hate flavour of the month. But who replaces him. McFadden? A player who cannot disrupt him at provincial level, that is the level below international level? Lunacy. Kidney has the problem that is the making of the provinces. Leinster have BOD and D'Arcy. Munster have had two foreigners (as they did under Kidney). Ulster have Wallace, who is playing very well but outside the province is basically butchered by fans due to a poor decision that butchered a try against Wales last year. Wallace is the victim of a selection policy whereby he sits on the bench more often than not, covering two positions but rarely gets on the pitch. He is the Owen Hargreaves of pre World Cup 2006, booed by his own fans. The bile that goes on these boards in endemic of the problems amongst Irish fans and a sad reflection on them. Spense, O'Malley and company haven't nailed down provincial places and in truth don't look consistently good enough at that level never mind international level. So let's pick on form then. The Irish centres should be Whitten and Wallace. Hands up, outside of Ulster, who wants that partnership? You'll also noted I havent mentioned Connaught here. Wales see fit to pick players from their worst province who have been a revelation at international level. Maybe Kidney needs to be braver in selection.

Finally, we see fit to blame Kidney and not the players. Why has it not occured to anyone that some players are just not quite up to the task at this level. Take Sexton for instance. His decision making is often poor and his kicking out of hand more often than not is not good enough at this level. Yes, he does it for Leinster. But he plays behind a pack playing at a less intense level who clear out rucks quicker, playing against much inferior and less physical packs than that of France, Scotland, Wales and England (though probably not Italy). Reddan can get the ball away quicker, Sexton has more time to think about his decisions and more time to execute them. He doesn't get that time at international level.

We really need to catch ourselves on her. Sure Kidney is making mistakes. O'Callaghan probably should be on the bench, but is he really so bad that his form demands he gets dropped? That is questionable. I think he should have picked Reddan at 9 given his partnership with 2/3 of the backrow and his 10. But other than that he has a very difficult task, and until some fans take their heads out of the sand about the realities of the game, the more nonsense we will see spouted here.

Jesus , that was a long quote anyway you were saying you'd like to see Chris Henry given a go yet he is 28 and has one cap for Ireland and he if anyone in this world is not international standard , he is one of them.Why would you bring Chris Henry ? It's not like he is a world class poacher, a far superior runner and has experience.You are going on about Jennings not being up to it internationally yet you suggest him?
Paddy Wallace is not the answer to our problems either he has been given chance upon chance to shine in Ireland and has just been not up to it , I would play Ferris in centre before him.
Rhys Ruddock I believe is the best of the lot in terms in up in coming back rowers he proved in the England Saxons game that he can poach as he stole the ball on numerous occasions.

[ME-109]

Absorbing game today. Darcy, Murray DOC all played well and justified their selections. Earls was sound in defence and guess what distributed rather well for Bowes second try. Sexton is a great defender not sure about being an outhalf though. Backrow still looks unbalanced with Ferris the only one of the three playing to their ability. Kearney just gets better and better.

People ask why DOC plays instead of Ryan. The reason is BJ Botha. For the uneducated, DOC was switched sides with POC to the other side of the scrum behind Ross (the big lump) when Ross began playing regularly for Ireland. DOC gives ROSS the extra bit of grunt needed in the scrum as well as the work he does in defence which was very evident in the first half today. Botha is the reason Ryan starts for Munster and not for Ireland (yet).

Also I see the crankies (fly and gibson) are going on with their jumpers for goalposts cr.p. Now that it is clear that Kidney is picking the best players in their positions mostly they keep banging the drum about this strange world where the players are set free and play amazing free flowing rugby off loading and scoring freely with complete disregard for their opponents. At best Gibson has been overdoing the strong stuff and as for Fly it would be hoped that it is mild dementia only, at worst they actually believe what they say....

I see Madigan is now kicking for Leinster, only a matter of time before Sexton is moved on....

[Gibson]

Kidney has failed his remit. We are going backwards. It's as good as over for him. Get real.

And Kia, he did it with a Munster side and in a conservative style, that was just about acceptable and workable back then. It wont work now. And its certainly not acceptable. How long will take him to realise that? He is clueless at this level.

Elmer Fudge is Doomed.

P.S. DOD. Always had you down as having some class and didn't need personal insults when the debate is lost. Try show some class and respect yer betters.

[ME-109]

While a draw is a little bit of a premature climax and ultimately not satisfactory for anyone its probably better than the win when BOD scored his hat trick given the team we played now was at least the first team while back then we were playing the walking wounded.

Wonder what people would have been saying if we won......

Anyhow...decent result in the graveyard of Irish teams of the past....

[tecphobe]

[Do you think Kidney is good enough to take this team forward? No fence-sitting. No waffle. Some of us DO care. I have. For 40 years.

Yes i do. Ireland need a backs coach and a replacement for Darcy. Personally I would like Bod to come out and state he's not comnig back as well

So we blame a man that isn't even in the side for not saying he won't be back..and we absolve a coach who is getting well paid to keep great players looking so at sea in many of the finer requirements of International rugby? BOD, you messed up our chance of a win in Paris!

So Kidney didn't do the actual coaching. So Kidney didn't do the running, the kicking or the wayward throwing. Great. I accept that. He manages though. He is responsible for the coaches he brought to the Ireland set up and the players he chooses to play his gameplan. He's not responsible for the detail of matchday, he IS responsible for those tasked with the duty to provide that detail. That's the deal he signs when he accepts the biggest coaching job on this island - responsibility for success or failure.

Right now criticisms are justified. Our coaches, the ones he has been responsible for hiring have failed - that includes Kiss, Small, Gaffney and now Feek. So many coaches that promise more and yet when they join this particular team, like the players themselves, they underperform? Something is wrong - something is not right. Ignoring that fact won't make the lack of real design disappear.

No real design and we'll continue to struggle and look sloppy.

I never said that bod was responsible for Ireland losing in Paris get a grip fly. He is injured i said i would like to see him retire so that Ireland can pick two players in the centre and give them time to jell. There was nothing wron g with irelands game plan it was the failure of the players to implement the game plan. Hence my comment about droped balls knock-ons etc and crooked throws to the line-outs. Ireland were no where near as bad as some are trying to make out. Ireland failed to win the match because certain players failed to undertake basics under pressure at test Match Level. Theres a reason why they call it a test match.

[ME-109]

Kidney has failed his remit. We are going backwards. It's as good as over for him. Get real.

And Kia, he did it with a Munster side and in a conservative style, that was just about acceptable and workable back then. It wont work now. How long will take him to realise that?

Elmer Fudge is Doomed.

what a load of shoi.e Gibson....Maybe you are just being petty and jealous.

Well you are right about one thing, having too many from one province isnt working. Luckily the cornerstones from this team...namely Best, POC, Ferris, Bowe and Earls ably assisted by at least one Leinster man (Kearney) are holding the team together....

Heaslip - overrated
Sexton - not an intl outhalf
Darcy - best of what we have
Ross - a lump
Healy - decent
SOB - better than heaslip but thats about it at the moment.

[SecretFly]

Absorbing game today. Darcy, Murray DOC all played well and justified their selections. Earls was sound in defence and guess what distributed rather well for Bowes second try. Sexton is a great defender not sure about being an outhalf though. Backrow still looks unbalanced with Ferris the only one of the three playing to their ability. Kearney just gets better and better.

People ask why DOC plays instead of Ryan. The reason is BJ Botha. For the uneducated, DOC was switched sides with POC to the other side of the scrum behind Ross (the big lump) when Ross began playing regularly for Ireland. DOC gives ROSS the extra bit of grunt needed in the scrum as well as the work he does in defence which was very evident in the first half today. Botha is the reason Ryan starts for Munster and not for Ireland (yet).

Also I see the crankies (fly and gibson) are going on with their jumpers for goalposts cr.p. Now that it is clear that Kidney is picking the best players in their positions mostly they keep banging the drum about this strange world where the players are set free and play amazing free flowing rugby off loading and scoring freely with complete disregard for their opponents. At best Gibson has been overdoing the strong stuff and as for Fly it would be hoped that it is mild dementia only, at worst they actually believe what they say....

I see Madigan is now kicking for Leinster, only a matter of time before Sexton is moved on....

DOD maybe you might watch a game sometime instead of dealing your familiar deck of players who 'do' and players who 'don't'. Kidney picks the best? The best that easily dispatch the Welsh best when they meet them at club level but who look like children against giants (metaphorically as well as physically) when meeting at International level? Oh International is a higher standard of course, I forgot that bullshite. That explains the conundrum right enough. That explains everything.

That's your bit, and it's enough for now. The rest is just general critical dementia, so by all means have a smoke whilst I dribble.

Was that an Irish side performing at 100%?

I think we'd all agree that the answer is no. Paulie admitted to it. Did France play to 100%? No. But their problems are their problems. I don't care about them, either their beautiful rugby or their flaky temperament. They are eternally a team IN OUR WAY.

Others can go ooh and ahh about the glorious French if they wish, I say from an Irish perspective all our game today needed was an extra 5 or 10% to win. That extra 5 or 10% wouldn't have brought us to 100% efficiency but would have been enough to win that game today.

I get annoyed because I can see how easily we would get that extra percentage into our game with a little more resolute determination to offer creativity (WHEN IT BLOODY HAPPENS) some rapid, meaningful and tuned in support. That is not about new players, new systems,new coaches. It is about identifying the wastage of everything Kearney does when nothing chases in to offer options for continuing the impetus he begins. In that aspect alone (a simple principle to work on and perfect) we fail miserably and therefore heap pressure on ourselves and needlessly cough up potential to the creaking safety valve of defence, defence, defence.

I can see so much potential in this Irish side and I can see the solution to be so easy to solve yet, obviously, so bloody hard to determine by the coaches who pour over hours and hours of footage...and others who pour over their own hours.... .

[Gibson]

Nothing wrong with Irelands game plan....I cant believe Im reading this.

Look. Keep believing in that shoite and one day, you will realise how silly it all was. DOD knows it well. Knows Kidney is finished. Just likes having a go for the craic. Me too.

Nite all.

[Gibson]

Kidney has failed his remit. We are going backwards. It's as good as over for him. Get real.

And Kia, he did it with a Munster side and in a conservative style, that was just about acceptable and workable back then. It wont work now. How long will take him to realise that?

Elmer Fudge is Doomed.

what a load of shoi.e Gibson....Maybe you are just being petty and jealous.

Well you are right about one thing, having too many from one province isnt working. Luckily the cornerstones from this team...namely Best, POC, Ferris, Bowe and Earls ably assisted by at least one Leinster man (Kearney) are holding the team together....

Heaslip - overrated
Sexton - not an intl outhalf
Darcy - best of what we have
Ross - a lump
Healy - decent
SOB - better than heaslip but thats about it at the moment.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yxiv3CBMS4M

[Standulstermen]

Game plan was the garryowen.

DOD you are lauding earls distribution for a simple 5 yard pass that is made in warm ups. I thought earls was decent today but to use that as justification is nuts.

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