Who were your choice players from 1 to 15 in week four of the Six Nations

First topic message reminder :

Well I think all in all its been a good Six Nations so far, unless you are French where i haven't seen many positives outside of the front row and the inside centre.

That said we all have seen ups and downs in our own teams, positives and negatives.

The exciting thing for all of us rugby fans despite our nationality is the fact that there are some great new players for us to swoon over each weekend and for the future too.

This championship is very much one that alludes to what will happen in the future not the present despite your teams current standing, a very positive championship in that respect that hopefully will be a pointer to the coaches of what they have to work with and what they have to expect over the next RWC cycle.

Who are your stand out players after round 4...?


USUAL GENTLEMANLY RULES APPLY, DO NOT CRITICISE SOMEONE ELSE TEAM SELECTION UNTIL YOU HAVE POSTED YOUR OWN...!!!

Ashton? The PR team are mad one tackle should not get you in the lineup. George Noirth for one managed to beat a number of defenders.

It is bizzarre but it has been a common opinion shared by ESPNs Scrum.com too...! I thought Ashton bar the one tackle was anonymous, Trimble, Fofana and North all having made a far better case for themselves.

And EuroSport/Yahoo! Team of the Weekend

15. Leigh Halfpenny (Wales) He might have been sin-binned, but he was still worth eight out of 10 on the Oval Talk player rating. He scored 11 points with the boot and has been one of Wales' key players in this championship.

14. Alex Cuthbert (Wales) The winger has improved with each game in this tournament. The man of the match put in a strong running performance against Italy and capped it off with a try.

13. Manu Tuilagi (England) When the Samoan-born centre is in the mood, he is just brilliant. Tuilagi was efficiently brutal in his defensive duty apart from one high tackle which gave away a penalty. He also scored England's first try. A top performance.

12. Wesley Fofana (France) Fofana was by far Les Bleus' most dangerous player when going forward and was pretty useful when making a tackle too. His efforts were finally rewarded with a late try which gave France a real chance to win, had Francois Trinh-Duc not missed his drop-goal attempt.

11. Andrew Trimble (Ireland) What he lacks in world-class quality Trimble makes up for with his work ethic. The Ulster man just never stops and fully deserved it when he went over to score against Scotland.

Farrell kept cool under pressure

10. Owen Farrell (England) The Ice Man. Farrell might have missed a first-half penalty, but he handled the pressure superbly to convert Tom Croft's try. And his crunching tackle on Imanol Harinordoquy in the dying moments will live long in the memory.

9. Mike Phillips (Wales) Phillips was always looking to make a break, even at times when it was not really on. His biggest weakness was his impatience - but his class shone through and he organised his pack well.

1. Gethin Jenkins (Wales)
In what was Jenkins's fourth game captaining his country, the Cardiff Blues prop did well. After recovering from an early scrum penalty he was an instrumental player. Jenkins can also claim an assist for Alex Cuthbert's try.

2. Rory Best (Ireland)
Best scored his seventh try in as many games and also got to captain the team for the first time in the Six Nations. A superb display.

3. Adam Jones (Wales)
He won his personal battle with Andrea Lo Cicero despite the referee awarding some bizarre decisions against him. Jones will have to be victorious once again in the scrum in next week's Grand Slam decider against France.

4. Richie Gray (Scotland)
OT is just running out of superlatives for this man. Consistently Scotland's best performer - his solo try against Ireland alone will put him in the 2013 British and Irish Lions squad. A shining star in what is an average team.

5. Yoann Maestri (France)
He was visibly disappointed to be replaced in the second half, and rightly so. Maestri, a giant of a man, worked tirelessly in defence and attack for his team. His efforts largely went unnoticed from his coach, though.

6. Tom Croft (England)
Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Croft was the best player on the pitch. His performance will be remembered for the cover tackle on Julien Malzieu and he also showed great pace to score the winning try. Not too shabby in the lineout either.

7. Justin Tipuric (Wales)
With Sam Warburton on the sidelines, Tipuric took his opportunity and showed why he is so highly thought of. He is a different player to Warburton in that he does not pose the same threat at the breakdown but his support runs and the amount of ground he covered was extraordinary.

8. Imanol Harinordoquy (France)
A performance out of the top drawer: he was arguably France's best player. Whether it was in the lineout, the scrum or defence, Harinordoquy was immense.

Rennie I think is Warburtons main competition for the Lions openside positiong I reckon SOB will travel as an 8.

Over the course of the 6N it's hard to argue against the fact that Rennie has been playing better than Warburton.

When Cardiff played Edinburgh in the HC Rennie and Warburton were very evenly matched.

The clout of being the Wales captain and his fantastic performance at the RWC will make Warbs tha favourite but Rennie has been the form player lately.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Rennie I think is Warburtons main competition for the Lions openside positiong I reckon SOB will travel as an 8.

Over the course of the 6N it's hard to argue against the fact that Rennie has been playing better than Warburton.

When Cardiff played Edinburgh in the HC Rennie and Warburton were very evenly matched.

The clout of being the Wales captain and his fantastic performance at the RWC will make Warbs tha favourite but Rennie has been the form player lately.

Luckily mate there is still a good 18 months to go for them to really align themselves for the seven shirt, their may also be a few new lads giving it a nudge.

So Best scored seven tries in seven games... nice piece of research there.

If the assertion is that a settled unit like the Welsh backrow is the best option to deliver rather than a scratch trio of the best players, then logic would dictate that the same principle applies to the whole team. Therefore the whole Welsh team should be the starting Lions?

If the whole Welsh team shouldn't be the starting Lions, then what argument is there to support picking any part of it on a different principle?

Rugger

I'd argue that although Rennie has been in good form, he has hardly shown the class Warburton has. He has given away a number of penalties at the breakdown, and butchered a few try scoring opportunities, that one V England is just unforgivable!!

I don't think Warburtons clout has come from being given the captaincy, I'd say his constnt proffessionalism, his attitude toward the game, his athletic prowess and his unbeleivable work at the breakdown has given him the clout and thus the Welsh captaincy.

I saw the Edinburgh game V Blues and they did have a real ding dong in the HC, but Warbs also outplayed Rennie earlier in the season if memory serves me correct.

Aukster

I think thats a very niaive view you have there. Noone is suggesting (well I'm not anyway) that the best combinations are the Welsh combinations, but for the sake of the team each unit has to work well.

If thats a welsh combo so be it, if it is a mix of Welsh Scot Eng then again so be it. None of this can be seen here, until all the lads get together before they leave and train noone will know.

However there is an argument that says that taking 'risks' on lesser player in functioning units reduces the risk of 3 of the best not being able to work, therefore someone has to lose out. Thats the beauty/headache of the lions selection.

The Great Aukster wrote:So Best scored seven tries in seven games... nice piece of research there.

If the assertion is that a settled unit like the Welsh backrow is the best option to deliver rather than a scratch trio of the best players, then logic would dictate that the same principle applies to the whole team. Therefore the whole Welsh team should be the starting Lions?

If the whole Welsh team shouldn't be the starting Lions, then what argument is there to support picking any part of it on a different principle?

Rory_Gallagher inadvertently made a case for the same earlier in the thread.

Obviously the entire welsh team would not be the strongest representation that the Lions could select.

There are areas of the Lions team that will have great battles for shirts, backrow being very well covered so far on this thread, Half back will be another, inside centre too and back three.

Nope, I quite clearly did not make a case for an entirely welsh lions team.

Come on Rory, of course you did! Arguing up Lydiates case with great effect I might add.

Seriously though lets not go down this route, we banged our heads at each other enough last night, lets not rekindle the hatred!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rugger

I'd argue that although Rennie has been in good form, he has hardly shown the class Warburton has. He has given away a number of penalties at the breakdown, and butchered a few try scoring opportunities, that one V England is just unforgivable!!

I don't think Warburtons clout has come from being given the captaincy, I'd say his constnt proffessionalism, his attitude toward the game, his athletic prowess and his unbeleivable work at the breakdown has given him the clout and thus the Welsh captaincy.

I saw the Edinburgh game V Blues and they did have a real ding dong in the HC, but Warbs also outplayed Rennie earlier in the season if memory serves me correct.

bluesman, the stats seem to suggest that neither have given away many penalties (Warburton 1 from 2 games, Rennie 3 from 4)? Out of interest, other than the England try-scoring opportunity, which other ones has Rennie butchered? They were both at the RWC in the only time their clubs have met this season in the league

thebluesmancometh wrote:Aukster

I think thats a very niaive view you have there. Noone is suggesting (well I'm not anyway) that the best combinations are the Welsh combinations, but for the sake of the team each unit has to work well.

If thats a welsh combo so be it, if it is a mix of Welsh Scot Eng then again so be it. None of this can be seen here, until all the lads get together before they leave and train noone will know.

However there is an argument that says that taking 'risks' on lesser player in functioning units reduces the risk of 3 of the best not being able to work, therefore someone has to lose out. Thats the beauty/headache of the lions selection.

Actually you have been suggesting that the best backrow combination is indeed the Welsh combination throughout the thread. Rather than pick the best players you suggest picking the best existing "combination" to reduce the risk without having any idea how different players would combine. However combinations only work within the wider context of the team so there is no evidence to suggest that an existing combination from one team would be effective playing alongside other elements from different countries.

Where does your combination thinking stop. Should existing front rows be picked or tight fives? Half backs surely with midfield and back three combos? Logically it makes the most sense to either pick an entire team or simply pick the best players available. In the interests of the Lions tradition I'll opt for the latter.

Maybe I'm just attributing penalties un fairly, my bad mate. I had the feeling he was conceding a few more than that.

Rennie made a lovely break V Wales and failed to release to a supporting player, and against France took the ball into contact twice when the pass to the wide men were much better options.

Edinburgh beat Blues in the HC after they came back from the WC, they went head to head then, unless I'm thinking of something else, you have me questioning myself now!

Aukster

I think youve misread or havn't read all my posts mate.

I stated time and time again Ferris is the better player, and is in front of Lydiate for a lions test jersey. Infact I mentioned Lydiate not being picked to go maybe.

I did say I wouldn't replace Lydiate for Ferris in the Wales back row combo. And I think it was Rory who stated that Wales get away with a more defense minded back row because of all the big ball carriers in the back line, to which I put an idea that if the lions take the likes of Roberts, North, Cuthbert, Tuilagi, Kearney, Bowe etc that maybe theres a case that the more defense minded Lydiate could be a better option as another ball carrier is not necesary, and with the likes of Pocock at the breakdown, and Samo's pace a ball carrying 6, who likes to go wider and do some damage can be sacrificed for a more disciplined playmate to Warbs.

I also never mentioned Falatau, I would like to see Ferris or SOB at 8 with Lyds and Warbs either side, but like I said we will not know how possible combos would go until they are picked and get together.

OK TBC I see where you cometh from now.

Can't agree that Ferris wouldn't get picked for Wales though - if it is as you describe he'd surely get picked somewhere in the backline.

The Lions are really well off for blindside flankers - Ferris and O'Brien are both about as good as it gets at 6, and there's plenty of competition for them.

BlueNote wrote:The Lions are really well off for blindside flankers - Ferris and O'Brien are both about as good as it gets at 6, and there's plenty of competition for them.

You would also have Brown back from Injury and he is a great No 6 to have

Riskysports wrote:

BlueNote wrote:The Lions are really well off for blindside flankers - Ferris and O'Brien are both about as good as it gets at 6, and there's plenty of competition for them.

You would also have Brown back from Injury and he is a great No 6 to have

Risky, he really is, you can see how much we have missed not having him this season - I like Stroks as a player, but he simply isn't of the same quality (and I'm not even going to comment on the lunacy of playing Barclay at blindside)

Anyone else concerned by the lack of quality half backs at the moment? I'm sure either Sexton, Farrel or Priestland can do a job at 10. But i'd be depressed if Phillips is the best we can come up with at scrum half, its a rare talent indeed that manages to look poor in a winning team as he is doing at the moment. His speed of delivery and thought are woeful. Still there is 18 months for someone else to come good.

maestegmafia wrote:15. Rob Kearney

14. Alex Cuthbert

13. Jon Davies

12. Wesley Fofana

11. Andrew Trimble

10. Owen Farrell

9. Eoin Reddan

8. Ben Morgan

7. Simone Favaro

6. Tom Croft

5. Donacha Ryan

4. Richie Gray

3. Nicholas Mas

2. Rory Best

1. Gethin Jenkins

Good team that, although I'd be tempted to bring in Roberts and tuilagi in the centres. Appreciate that combination could end up being a tad one dimensional in attack but would love to see it anyway.

Bluesman, Ferris is better than Lydiate and Gatland would almost certainly select him as a starter if he had the option. Its a shame youre so one eyed sometimes as you do chuck out some good rugby chat. You should open (both) your eyes to non Welsh players / things. there is a whole world out there, beyond the border and seas, just waiting for you to discover

Islingtonv2 wrote:Anyone else concerned by the lack of quality half backs at the moment? I'm sure either Sexton, Farrel or Priestland can do a job at 10. But i'd be depressed if Phillips is the best we can come up with at scrum half, its a rare talent indeed that manages to look poor in a winning team as he is doing at the moment. His speed of delivery and thought are woeful. Still there is 18 months for someone else to come good.

Blair, Murray, Cusiter, Reddan, Williams and Youngs will all be applying for the job come the final cut I am sure.

Oval

Youve either not read anything Ive posted properly or your so one eyed you fail to see the benefits of lesser players doing better jobs in different teams!

I stated time and time again Ferris is the better player, and is in front of Lydiate for a lions test jersey. Infact I mentioned Lydiate not being picked to go maybe.

I did say I wouldn't replace Lydiate for Ferris in the Wales back row combo.

If thats one eyed then I am clearly one eyed toward combinations and units opposed to individuals.

I'm sorry Blueman but Ferris is a much better player than Lydiate, not sure how you can think otherwise tbh

thebluesmancometh wrote:I stated time and time again Ferris is the better player, and is in front of Lydiate for a lions test jersey. Infact I mentioned Lydiate not being picked to go maybe.

I did say I wouldn't replace Lydiate for Ferris in the Wales back row combo.

If thats one eyed then I am clearly one eyed toward combinations and units opposed to individuals.

Blues makes a point, though it has as many holes in it as the Scottish defence. What if you had someone in Wales that was a better player that Lydiate? Should he not be dropped for this person or kept in to preserve 'the unit'? And if Ferris is the better player why would you not add him? Surely if he is better in all departments than Lydiate he would actually make the unit stronger not weaker? It seems to me what you are really saying is you prefer Lydiate because you are Welsh. And what is wrong with that- thats what fans are for!

Pooly

Your clearly not worth bothering with!

Hookisms

You make a good point regarding a superior player within Wales, I think there arguably are many 6's who offer more than Lydiate.

I didn't claim Ferris was better in every aspect, I claimed he wouldn't suit the unti as well as Lydiate. Ferris doesn't have the discipline Lydiate has, he tends to want to carry more, and leaves the supporting aspect to POC. He also like to drift out wider and look for the big hits, this would leave our defence missing numbers as Lydiate gives Warburton the freedom to get into the rucks. Pocock has recently lost his back up man and is not showing the same form.

Ferris would suit many top sides in the world, he'd make SA and NZ teams but he wouldn't suit Wales, or Australia come to think of it.

Now if he wanted to play 8 I would let him play it and put Toby on the bench.

But for you lot no matter how much I compliment him, you will just claim I'm wales biased despite obviously not being, and I will here the same tired argument over and over

'but ferris is better'

15. Rob Kearney

14. Alex Cuthbert

13. Jon Davies

12. Wesley Fofana

11. Andrew Trimble

10. Owen Farrell

9. Eoin Reddan

8. Ben Morgan

7. Simone Favaro

6. Dan Lydiate

5. Donacha Ryan

4. Richie Gray

3. Nicholas Mas

2. Rory Best

1. Gethin Jenkins

thebluesmancometh wrote:Pooly

Your clearly not worth bothering with!

Sorry fella, it was too easy.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Pooly

Your clearly not worth bothering with!

How can anyone debate with that? Might as well hold our hands up and concede that a current world team would be welsh players from 1-15, that the tarmac on the Welsh side of the Severn bridge is better, and that pink cowboy hats really do make 18 stone women look pretty

Oh Oval, if only you had a brain and could actually debate the sport. You wouldn't need to make such inane comments and I would be interested in what you had to say

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh Oval, if only you had a brain and could actually debate the sport. You wouldn't need to make such inane comments and I would be interested in what you had to say

ok ok, perhaps a couple of kiwis on the bench. Honestly, there is no pleasing some people.

Wales RWC Champions 2011? No?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Pooly

Your clearly not worth bothering with!

Hookisms

You make a good point regarding a superior player within Wales, I think there arguably are many 6's who offer more than Lydiate.

I didn't claim Ferris was better in every aspect, I claimed he wouldn't suit the unti as well as Lydiate. Ferris doesn't have the discipline Lydiate has, he tends to want to carry more, and leaves the supporting aspect to POC. He also like to drift out wider and look for the big hits, this would leave our defence missing numbers as Lydiate gives Warburton the freedom to get into the rucks. Pocock has recently lost his back up man and is not showing the same form.

Ferris would suit many top sides in the world, he'd make SA and NZ teams but he wouldn't suit Wales, or Australia come to think of it.

Now if he wanted to play 8 I would let him play it and put Toby on the bench.

But for you lot no matter how much I compliment him, you will just claim I'm wales biased despite obviously not being, and I will here the same tired argument over and over

'but ferris is better'

All fans are one-eyed so don't take it as a personal assault. I think you make good points on Ferris vs Lydiate and their roles within the sides. The problem with that stance is comparing Irish and Welsh tactics are like comparing apples with pears. Me and some other Irish fans (I want to say majority but don't want to overstate the case) believe Ferris would be even better if he was playing with a 7 in the mould of Warburton. Ferris' role in carrying and defending is part of different offensive and defensive systems. As an Ulster fan I have seen a disciplined Ferris carry our pack through games where we should have been beaten. If you want to see a disciplined Ferris performance at a higher level look at how he (obviously with others) destroyed the Australian backrow in the World Cup.

Also, it's me saying Ferris is better in every aspect of the game. I told you all fans were one-eyed.

I am certainly not one eyed, infact if anything I am too critical of Welsh players, but thats the difference, I criticise Welsh players and I'm realistic, I criticise Any other players and I'm one eyed. There isn't a lot of foresight on these boards.

Anyways, you are absolutley spot on, the way the Welsh and Irish defend are very different, Wales kick infeild and chase with a very disciplined line, whereas Ferris is a more of a demolisher, where if he chases a kick he goes for the kill. I have seen him leave the line for Ireland and Ulster.

Also if Ferris had an out and out 7 with him he'd have to adjust his game, he couldn't afford to play how he does now, maybe he would be better, but maybe he would cause trouble. And thats the reason he would be favourite for a lions spot, but there is a case for Lydiate to go too.

My Irish back row would actually be very different to most...

6. Ferris
7. Henry
8. SOB

And my lions back row would depend on the carrying options in the back line, if we go with the big welsh boys and add the likes of Tuilagi Bowe etc.. I would probably start with...

6. Lydiate
7. Warbs
8. Denton/Ferris

But again thats if we were to play the Welsh gameplan, which if it's Gatland, there will be a large amount of Welsh players and I beleive he will.

As a more attacking option, and maybe just brute force I'd go with...

6. Ferris
7. SOB/Rennie
8. Denton

I seem to remember R Jones being better than Ferris in the Wales v Ireland game, Lydiate was injured. From my Welsh point of view, 1/2 Penny has been great over the 6N and does not duck tackles like Kearney, Wales score 3 tries and he was nowhere to be seen also could not put a hand on a second row!

my side based on performances this weekend for team of the weekend:

1.Gethin Jenkins
2.Rory Best
3.Nicolas Mas
4.Richie Gray
5.Donnacha Ryan
6.Tom Croft
7.S.Ferris
8.Ben Morgan (had a class game)
9.Parra (didnt play long, but thought he was very good)
10.Owen Farrell
11.George North
12.Wesley Fofana
13.Manu Tuilagi
14.Alex Cuthbert
15.Ben Foden

Thouhgt Morgans fitness tailed off quite bit after a very good first half and as Ferris played 6 I think there were better 7s on show over the weekend.

glamorganalun wrote:I seem to remember R Jones being better than Ferris in the Wales v Ireland game, Lydiate was injured. From my Welsh point of view, 1/2 Penny has been great over the 6N and does not duck tackles like Kearney, Wales score 3 tries and he was nowhere to be seen also could not put a hand on a second row!

Funny how Ryan Jones stood out in that match, yet Lydiate hasn't stood out anywhere near as much since, so if Dan had been playing would Ireland have won?
Perhaps Gatland is not picking the best welsh player at 6 because Jones doesn't suit the rest of the backrow?

Just cos Lydiate doesn't stand out doesn't mean he's not doing his job, his tackle count is one of if not the highest every game and his chop tackles are special in it self.

He just gets on with the dirty dog stuff that allows the likes of Faletau and Warburton to stand out.

bedford

Don't bother mate, Auksters on the wind up. It odesn't matter how many valid points you make, how much foresight you show, or how much you compliment anyone he just sees what he sees, not much at all.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I am certainly not one eyed, infact if anything I am too critical of Welsh players, but thats the difference, I criticise Welsh players and I'm realistic, I criticise Any other players and I'm one eyed. There isn't a lot of foresight on these boards.

Anyways, you are absolutley spot on, the way the Welsh and Irish defend are very different, Wales kick infeild and chase with a very disciplined line, whereas Ferris is a more of a demolisher, where if he chases a kick he goes for the kill. I have seen him leave the line for Ireland and Ulster.

Also if Ferris had an out and out 7 with him he'd have to adjust his game, he couldn't afford to play how he does now, maybe he would be better, but maybe he would cause trouble. And thats the reason he would be favourite for a lions spot, but there is a case for Lydiate to go too.

My Irish back row would actually be very different to most...

6. Ferris
7. Henry
8. SOB

And my lions back row would depend on the carrying options in the back line, if we go with the big welsh boys and add the likes of Tuilagi Bowe etc.. I would probably start with...

6. Lydiate
7. Warbs
8. Denton/Ferris

But again thats if we were to play the Welsh gameplan, which if it's Gatland, there will be a large amount of Welsh players and I beleive he will.

As a more attacking option, and maybe just brute force I'd go with...

6. Ferris
7. SOB/Rennie
8. Denton

Of course you are one eyed. I am one eyed. Every fan is one eyed. You show me a 'neutral' commentator and I'll show you a liar.

I wouldn't want you to assume I don't see what you are saying is perfectly valid. Perhaps the fact you probably see more of Lydiate than I do and that as an Ulster fan I watch more of Ferris than you then we will obviously have different opinions. Ulster and Ireland play with a shooter occasionally coming up in defence be it O'Driscoll, Bowe, Trimble, Ferris or whoever. But that vs the Welsh defence is neither reason to pick Lydiate or Ferris. The question of what may happen if Gatland was appointed Lions coach is also an interesting one. As coach of Wales is he creating tactics to fit the players, or picking players to fit a system? If it is the former then if you pick the superior player then you would possibly pick Ferris, so would the tactics change? If you had a 10 with better control and a better kicking game that Priestland would the chasing game therefore be the same? Of course this is all hypothetical and we won't know until next year.

Being honest, obviously many Welsh have differing opinions than other fans on their players. From what I have seen, as pointed by another poster, I would differ in that I would pick Kearney every single time over Halfpenny. I would counter arguments about Kearney's couple of questionable last ditch tackling (against North and Gray) with Halfpenny's average kicking out of hand, a lack of effective counter attacking and lack of intelligent lines of running. To me he is a much more effective winger and he is a good finisher. I also think Cuthbert is a real find and superior to North. Though I say this with the obvious caveat that he is very young, North to me seems to be a flat tacker bully who has only strength on his side. Cuthbert seems a much superior footballer, he runs better lines of attack and in the long term has more in his arsenal than pure brute force. In the Welsh backrow I really do not rate Lydiate or Falateau as highly as many Welsh fans. I think you could take either (or probably both) out of the side and it wouldn't make very much difference. The real stars have been Warburton who is genuinely world class, and Tipuric who has been tremendous. Lydiate and Falateau are effective foils for much superior players at 7. Credit to Gatland who has created a side who are much better than the sum of their parts. On the other hand, don't get me started on the irish back row.

Kearney over 1/2p??? I agree, Kearney is far more dangerous on the counter, varies his game, and is much better under a high ball. Kearney might lack a bit of bottle but the rets of his game is superb and far above anything else the Lions could pick from, 1/2p will tour though, and arguable be on the bench for his versatility and his goal kicking is as good as anyones at present, what a weapon to have in the arsenal.

I agree Cuthbert has been a good find, and I see your points regarding his footballing nous as a blues supporter I like him, but to say North is nothing but a bully with strength on his side is very unfair. He is the most agile back 3 player in the tournament, and only Earls and Clerc come near him, he is also tremendously quick, far quicker than Cuthbert. North has the physical attributes that far exceed anyone elses and the furore about him is regarding his age, at 19 he barely started his S+C programme when he burst onto the scene, in 2 years he will be the best in the world bar none if he keeps his form up and doesn't get injured.
I don't rate Lydiate or Falatau as highly as most welsh fans either, but I would say they are arguably part of the best unit in the NH at the minute. Warbs is definately not carrying them, and I'd go as far to say that he owes his form to them. I disagree, when they are not in the side you miss them, Lydiate missed the Ireland game and it was obvious as we werent as defencively sound, we even conceded 2 tries, then he went off for Ryan Jones Jones and Scotland score.
However Warburton missed the Italian game and Tuperic slotted intot the unti very easily.

The kick chase game is part of the reason Preistlands kicking out of hand looks worse than it actually is, when Phillips, JD2 and 1/2p kick too the ball stays infeild, it's all about the chase, and against France I want you to watch who leads that line, calls the mark for it to get to, and manages the direction.

I watch Ferris very regularly, easily as much as Lydiate, and when he flies out of Ulsters line and you hear the ooooo's ring around it's not because Ulster play with a flier! I give Henry a lot of credit for that back row, he's making Wannenberg look better than he actually is.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Just cos Lydiate doesn't stand out doesn't mean he's not doing his job, his tackle count is one of if not the highest every game and his chop tackles are special in it self.

He just gets on with the dirty dog stuff that allows the likes of Faletau and Warburton to stand out.

That is the point people are making. Ferris does the same job Lydiate does but better. Check the tackle stats for the two players and tell me who has the highest. Not including the first game of course as Lydiate wasn't playing.

There goes the thread!

When you have something new to contribute Rory I will respond but until then...

You have still been debating the Ferris and Lydiate thing so why can't I?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Kearney over 1/2p??? I agree, Kearney is far more dangerous on the counter, varies his game, and is much better under a high ball. Kearney might lack a bit of bottle but the rets of his game is superb and far above anything else the Lions could pick from, 1/2p will tour though, and arguable be on the bench for his versatility and his goal kicking is as good as anyones at present, what a weapon to have in the arsenal.

I agree Cuthbert has been a good find, and I see your points regarding his footballing nous as a blues supporter I like him, but to say North is nothing but a bully with strength on his side is very unfair. He is the most agile back 3 player in the tournament, and only Earls and Clerc come near him, he is also tremendously quick, far quicker than Cuthbert. North has the physical attributes that far exceed anyone elses and the furore about him is regarding his age, at 19 he barely started his S+C programme when he burst onto the scene, in 2 years he will be the best in the world bar none if he keeps his form up and doesn't get injured.
I don't rate Lydiate or Falatau as highly as most welsh fans either, but I would say they are arguably part of the best unit in the NH at the minute. Warbs is definately not carrying them, and I'd go as far to say that he owes his form to them. I disagree, when they are not in the side you miss them, Lydiate missed the Ireland game and it was obvious as we werent as defencively sound, we even conceded 2 tries, then he went off for Ryan Jones Jones and Scotland score.
However Warburton missed the Italian game and Tuperic slotted intot the unti very easily.

The kick chase game is part of the reason Preistlands kicking out of hand looks worse than it actually is, when Phillips, JD2 and 1/2p kick too the ball stays infeild, it's all about the chase, and against France I want you to watch who leads that line, calls the mark for it to get to, and manages the direction.

I watch Ferris very regularly, easily as much as Lydiate, and when he flies out of Ulsters line and you hear the ooooo's ring around it's not because Ulster play with a flier! I give Henry a lot of credit for that back row, he's making Wannenberg look better than he actually is.

I think if Priestland played with a 9 who gave him quick service his kicking would actually be better. He reminds me of Sexton in many ways in that with slow service he struggles. If the opposition are up quickly against them or in a solid disciplined line then they just don't appear to have the tactical brain to cope. Priestland probably has more chance to change this is Gatland sticks with him. I really think Wales would be much better with a 9 who can vary his distribution. Look at Sexton on Saturday- Reddan actually had a pretty average game yet Sexton and his outside backs played better with quicker distribution.

Don't get me wrong, Halfpenny and Lydiate for example would tour for me. In the 15? Probably not. But as you rightly point out it will depend on tactics and this time next year none of the people we are mentioning might be there. Both Heaslip and Falateau would be left at home if they team was being picked this season. I remember Ryan Jones was a shoe-in for Lions captain on the last tour a year out.

As I said, North is young. But I'm not as impressed as many others and I wonder about next season. Will be have second season syndrome and will he be found out by the opposition? I think Cuthbert has more raw materials to not suffer to the same extent. Look at Tommy Bowe for instance. I think he has been average throughout the championship yet is the top try scorer because he relies on lines of running and intelligence, not speed or brut force.

Watch Ulster next match. You find Spence often shoots out (too much for my taste at times) and Trimble also does off his wing. But Ferris does it the most, but is very effective. Certainly if you look back to the defeat against New Zealand at Croke Park he came out twice, missed his man and cost us tries. I can't remember when he has done that this season. He appears to know when to do it now and when to show more discipline. But Henry has been excellent for us. Don't start me on Irish selection policies like dropping O'Mahony for O'Brien.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Just cos Lydiate doesn't stand out doesn't mean he's not doing his job, his tackle count is one of if not the highest every game and his chop tackles are special in it self.

He just gets on with the dirty dog stuff that allows the likes of Faletau and Warburton to stand out.

I agree Lydiate doesn't stand out, but I'm not sure that's balanced by:
1. A high tackle count. Although apparently you have to factor in that the stats are misleading as his tackle count isn't particularly high because he didn''t have any tackles to make.
and
2. Faletau and Warburton standing out. Faletau has been anonymous and Warburton has been ok although both Tipuric and Shingler have looked at least as good.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Nope, I quite clearly did not make a case for an entirely welsh lions team.

Yes you made a very good case when you posted

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The welsh back row works well because of the welsh backs. If you paired the welsh back row with the Ireland team, they wouldn't be nearly as effective. We need some big guys who can carry there. Wales have those guys in the backs, so they play a very defensive back row. Plus Heaslip is just out of sorts atm anyway. Ferris is the 6 any team would want, and is also very adaptable/dependable.

I didn't think that the lions would pick the entire welsh team but you are making a very good case for it mate...! Ha ha ha...

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Nope, I quite clearly did not make a case for an entirely welsh lions team.

Yes you made a very good case when you posted

maestegmafia wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

The welsh back row works well because of the welsh backs. If you paired the welsh back row with the Ireland team, they wouldn't be nearly as effective. We need some big guys who can carry there. Wales have those guys in the backs, so they play a very defensive back row. Plus Heaslip is just out of sorts atm anyway. Ferris is the 6 any team would want, and is also very adaptable/dependable.

I didn't think that the lions would pick the entire welsh team but you are making a very good case for it mate...! Ha ha ha...

How would picking the entire Welsh team be a good thing,we need players who can beat Australia so a mix of Ireland,England and Scotland is obviously the way to go.