Leinster vs Ospreys match thread

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

First topic message reminder :

Hey all,

Thanks god club rugby is back (from an Irish perspective!) needed this.

Seems to be a lot happening Leinster's side of things, with BOD looking like he will come back into the team and the same being said for Cullen. Huge experience re-entering the team after youth has been keeping us more than just a float for a number of months. Very healthy to see. It will interesting to see where they slot in and (if they are on the bench as I imagine they will) who they will be paired with.

Thorn also looks set to make his Leinster debut giving the 3 players mentioned a run up of this game and the Munster derby in Thomond to the HCup 1/4 final.

From an Ospreys side of things, munster losing to Aironi a week back has given them a huge lifeline and they now have a chance to fight for 2nd place and a home semifinal which would prove invaluable I am sure. Bowe has decided he is leaving and there does seem to be an exodus of sorts coming from the Wlesh clubs who together have created a fantastic Grand slam winning team? Will anyone come back from that squad and play a part on Friday.

What are your score perdictions?
What team would you like to see?
If Ospreys were to win how big an impact could it have on the top 3?
Where can either team win it?

LEINSTER:

15: Isa Nacewa
14: David Kearney
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Fergus McFadden
11: Luke Fitzgerald
10: Ian Madigan
9: Isaac Boss

1: Heinke van der Merwe
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Nathan White
4: Leo Cullen CAPTAIN
5: Brad Thorn
6: Rhys Ruddock
7: Dominic Ryan
8: Leo Auva'a

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Jack McGrath
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Damian Browne
20: Kevin McLaughlin
21: John Cooney
22: Eoin O'Malley
23: Fionn Carr

OSPREYS:

15: Richard Fussell
14: Hanno Dirksen
13: Andrew Bishop
12: Ashley Beck
11: Eli Walker
10: Dan Biggar
9: Kahn Fotuali'i

1: Paul James
2: Richard Hibbard
3: Aaron Jarvis
4: Ryan Jones
5: Alun Wyn Jones CAPTAIN
6: Tom Smith
7: Justin Tipuric
8: George Stowers

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Scott Baldwin
17: Ryan Bevington
18: Adam Jones
19: Ian Evans
20: James King
21: Rhys Webb
22: Matthew Morgan
23: Tom Isaacs

As an aside: I have 1 southstand ticket to the game for sale. €22. PM if you're interested.

[Rory_Gallagher]

To expand on the fact that nIQ players does not, of itself, assume that players of the necessary quality will come through.

The only NIQ backrower, at the 3 senior provinces, this year is Wannenberg and he is an 8 - a position Ireland are fine in. That could be zero next year.
However inspite of all 7's being IQ we still struggle in that position.

There is only 1 NIQ 12, at the 3 senior provinces (Mafi), and that will be zero next year - we are still struggling in that position.

You can open the door but of itself it doesn't mean someone of the right quality will walk through it.

Are Ireland fine at 8 Geoff? Heaslip isn't pulling his weight and the other options aren't actually playing there. We have no decent specialist 8s.

[hugo124]

we all know that heaslip is capable of being a fantastic 8 though. needs a wake up call, play sob there for a couple games as others have previously said.

[SecretFly]

We should also try waiting to see what Heaslip turns up for the latter stages of Pro12 and HC.
That could tell us a thing or two about Heaslip, Province, Country and Committment. We mightn't fully like what we see..... but, anyway, it's just another angle on the 'kick up the backside' argument.
Will he actually need a kick up the backside to motivate him with Leinster?

[hugo124]

he used to be incredibly motivated during the big games to be fair to him. i remember being taken back at how psyched he was for the ireland v boks game after the lions tour. His game has definitely taken a hit since sob started playing 7. You may be right secretfly, heaslip has a knack of popping up and making the big plays when it matters most

[Rory_Gallagher]

I think SOB gets blamed for enough, I see no reason why Heaslip's game would suffer from him playing at 7.

[hugo124]

heaslip does a hell of a lot more ground work. i know its the obvious thing to say, but he really does. has made key turnovers in the past year or so, while leinster have earned the reputation of being kings of the breakdown according to glasgow's coach sean lineen

[Rory_Gallagher]

That is a myth to be honest, and I think Heaslip has been pretty lazy in that aspect apart from a few occasions. SOB has done plenty of groundwork and I have no idea why he doesn't get praise for it. I think it has to do with people wanting to see him making those huge runs again, and now that he is playing a more subtle type of game it bothers them. He has made some great steals this 6 nations but nobody seemed to notice.

[geoff998rugby]

I would be fine with SOB at 8. One thing is for sure Ireland have far bigger problems than a lack of depth at 8.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Well people complain about our back row, and it is clear that Heaslip is the weak link. It is a problem nonetheless.

[debaters1]

geoff, yes, as the poster who said 'i is more of an issue with Munster & Ulster' that caused you to scratch your head, it is more of an issue at Munster.

No one has hidden this fact. 2/3rds of our best scrum is South African. Not good at all. Fortunately the rest of the pack while not stunningly talented, they are almost all capped at full or 'A' level, with a couple of exceptions.

As for our Backs, well next year if Lualua is a first choice starter, by the end of the season I envisage that Dougie wont be, having hopefully wearing 23/'gone up stairs'.

But the front row will still be a huge issue. If Archer can kick on at 3 and Ryan can get more game time at 1, as while Du preez has been very good for us, Horan aint aging like fine win so we need local lads coming through.

I accept that we have national issue at 12, but when you take the 4 provinces, 2 of the 12 are NIQ (Nikora & Mafi) and one other is D'Arcy.
Next season it will be the same 50/50 split, but hopefully Fitzy or McFadden or EOM will be 12 at Leinster with Marshall or Cave or Spence (depending on where they are played) and between those 6 guys we find an Int 12.

As for Heaslip, the more he plays the less he looks like the future Irish captain we were all told he was going to become. Of course he has the talent and ability to be a world beater, all I'm asking is that he, you know, be that world beater. If that means bringing in a 7 such as POM to do the ground work (which while i agree is somewhat overstated, he has been doing a bit of) in order to free him up around the park as carrier and first up tackler rather than tackler/jackel, then lets do it. That or drop him to 19 and shift SOB to 8 and POM starting at 7.

[eirebilly]

Well people complain about our back row, and it is clear that Heaslip is the weak link. It is a problem nonetheless.

Its not a bad thing when a player of the abilty of Heaslip is the weakest link

[Rory_Gallagher]

It is a bad thing when we haven't seen it in quite some time, though. He was by some distance the worst 8 in the 6 nations.

[Gibson]

And SOB was the worst 7. Its not just Heaslip. It's the whole backrow. Completely unbalanced and working against and restricting - itself.

6. Ferris
7. O'Mahoney or Ryan
8. SOB.

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

I really don't buy that Gibbo I got to say. I think SOB has been playing well at 7, not as well as last year (but that was never going to happen) but he does so much work on the ground and in defence now. He makes a mountain of tackles and affects a lot of turnovers as well as winning some himself. He slows down opposition ball.

He doesn't make those big runs anymore and he doesn't speed up our ball much but he has been pretty good IMHO. I do think Heaslip is worth dropping for POM and put SOB at 8 though. Just would see that as a fault of Heaslip at 8 rather than SOB at 7

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Ah lads. Sob at 8 ahead of Jamie. Wtf. Yer all on drugs. Sob is god and all, but 8 is his worst and least favourite position in the back row. Jamie is a lions 8. Form is temp, class is perm.

[rodders]

Form is temp, class is perm.

Try telling that to Dennis Leamy........

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Form is temp, class is perm.

Try telling that to Dennis Leamy........

Must have missed his lions test debut

[rodders]

Leamys?

[geoff998rugby]

Heaslip has his work cut out to even make the Lions squad let alone the tour.

Falateau,Denton, Morgan is tough competition.

If we accept the notion than SOB isn't an 8 either then last years European player of the year doesn't make the Ireland team imv.
Ferris is a better 6 and I just dont rate him at 7 and would prefer POM or a fit again Wallace.

In truth he is one a long line of Irish players who would really benefit from playing iin one position next year rather than all over the place - same for McFadden and Earls and even youngsters like Spence.

[Gibson]

Please not Wallace or Leamy anywhere near the Irish squad. Let them go. Let them spend the last year or 2 of their careers dedicated to Munster.

Yeah. That's best.

[eirebilly]

Agree Gibbo. I love Davy and have always rated Leamy but there time is up and there are decent players there now that have the experience. If Ireland had a better strength in depth in the centres then i would say the same about BOD.

[Gibson]

Agree Gibbo. I love Davy and have always rated Leamy but there time is up and there are decent players there now that have the experience. If Ireland had a better strength in depth in the centres then i would say the same about BOD.

Totally agree.
I want O Malley to be a huge part of the rest of Leinster's season and beyond. He is more than ready for it. No more time for sentiment or ill-judged loyalty. That's well worn out for me.

You see Billser, this is the very reason why Ireland need an unbiased foreign coach. Or a foreign Irish coach.

[eirebilly]

I am not sure if the solution is a foreign coach to be honest. Ireland just need a coach the will be prepared to make the hard calls and take a gamble. The talent is there for him (whoever he will be).

[hugo124]

That is a myth to be honest

Not a myth at all. i agree that sob does more groundwork than people think, and that he isn't playing his running game of last season, changing his game and leaving the crash to ferris. But heaslip has without doubt taken some of the grunt work on himself. you say people doubt sob's ability cuz he's not doing the obvious crashing anymore. in my opinion people are doing the same to heaslip

[Gibson]

There is no one else. Except for O Shea. And he wont leave Quins, Id bet. Unless things change at IRFU level. O Shea is too cute to get caught up with this present shower. He'll bide his time.

[eirebilly]

True but its all dependant on whether Deccie actually steps down because he wont be sacked.

[Gibson]

That is a myth to be honest

Not a myth at all. i agree that sob does more groundwork than people think, and that he isn't playing his running game of last season, changing his game and leaving the crash to ferris. But heaslip has without doubt taken some of the grunt work on himself. you say people doubt sob's ability cuz he's not doing the obvious crashing anymore. in my opinion people are doing the same to heaslip

Agree with that. Its a total misuse of resources. They are working in opposition and not as a unit. How long will it take before Kidney admits this?

[Mickado]

Heaslip is slipping into Donners territory with a this talk of "doing the unseen work". He's a battler at the breakdown, he's just having a slight dip in form. No need to sharpen the knives just yet.

[Gibson]

True but its all dependant on whether Deccie actually steps down because he wont be sacked.

Deccie wont step down or be sacked. End of 2013 season for him. So its thinking caps on for the IRFU to look for a replacement. Now.

[eirebilly]

I am sure that there are preparations and i would not be suprised if the have already put their feelers out.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

The problem is.......Ferris, SOB, Heaslip are the 3 best PLAYERS we have in the back row. OK there is no natural 7 in there, but POM is not one either, neither is Henry or Wallace (But I would have Wallace ahead of anyone else). And any of the other options who ARE natural 7s (Jennings, Ronan, Johnnie O'Connor. Apologies if I have left anyone out) Are not in the same class as the other trio as PLAYERS.

If people think Seanie is playing out of position at 7, it would be worse at 8.

He is capable at 8 and has played HC games there for Leinster, but he is nowhere near Jamie in his understanding of the position.
Ability to play off a retreating scrum may come in handy for example. (sadly)

[Gibson]

Its true Jen. They ARE our 3 best backrowers - by a mile. Its just unfortunate we have to use a natural, WC 6 - as a 7. Its not working. And its upsetting the unit. Id die for a Warburton or a Rennie.

A Rennie for backrow indigestion?

[Rory_Gallagher]

SOB is a versatile back rower, who can play 6, 7 or 8. I honestly don't think he has a best or worst position, he can do a fantastic job no matter where he plays (and last year for his european player of the year award, he played all three). His tackle count was roughly the same as Lydiate this tournament, and he made plenty of turnovers. He beat fewer defenders than he has in the past obviously, but that is why people hate him at 7 I think. They miss his running game. Also I noticed Best was praised for a few turnovers by the commentators when it was actually SOB (they had the same colour of scrum cap). SOB's criticism is beyond unfair IMO.

[eirebilly]

I think that SOB plays 8 very well, i honestly do.

Ferris 6, POM 7 and SOB 8 could be a very good system.

[hugo124]

agree that pom is not the answer at 7, dom ryan looks the best bet for the future. heaslip would still be my lions pick at 8 , faletau a close second. agree that sob is harshly criticized , when in fact it should be the team strategy that is being called into question, not his abilities.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Its true Jen. They ARE our 3 best backrowers - by a mile. Its just unfortunate we have to use a natural, WC 6 - as a 7. Its not working. And its upsetting the unit. Id die for a Warburton or a Rennie.

A Rennie for backrow indigestion?

You mention Warburton and Rennie - Warburton started out as an 8, then moved to 6 before settling at 7, and he was initially described as a 6.5. He has a very good all around game, much more than simply competing at the breakdown. As does McCaw these days actually. As for Rennie, his stats were interesting. He made a lot of carries and beat a good few defenders, for a 7. As many as Denton I believe, or it was very close at least. He is more of an effective link-man than a breakdown menace (although he is still good at this).

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

SOB is a versatile back rower, who can play 6, 7 or 8. I honestly don't think he has a best or worst position, he can do a fantastic job no matter where he plays (and last year for his european player of the year award, he played all three). His tackle count was roughly the same as Lydiate this tournament, and he made plenty of turnovers. He beat fewer defenders than he has in the past obviously, but that is why people hate him at 7 I think. They miss his running game. Also I noticed Best was praised for a few turnovers by the commentators when it was actually SOB (they had the same colour of scrum cap). SOB's criticism is beyond unfair IMO.

He doesn't agree with you.

OK the quote is from years ago when he was a teenager. But I bet he has not changed too much. The fact that he is such a great player means he can have an impact in any of the 3 positions but 8 is defo his worst.

"I don't think I'm ever going to make a No8 but I'm just as happy playing No6 or No7. I just want to play, give me the jersey and I'll do my best."

[Rory_Gallagher]

I think this "specialist 7" craze is majorly blown out of proportion.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I think this "specialist 7" craze is majorly blown out of proportion.

All the more reason to stay with the 3 we have.

[Rory_Gallagher]

SOB is a versatile back rower, who can play 6, 7 or 8. I honestly don't think he has a best or worst position, he can do a fantastic job no matter where he plays (and last year for his european player of the year award, he played all three). His tackle count was roughly the same as Lydiate this tournament, and he made plenty of turnovers. He beat fewer defenders than he has in the past obviously, but that is why people hate him at 7 I think. They miss his running game. Also I noticed Best was praised for a few turnovers by the commentators when it was actually SOB (they had the same colour of scrum cap). SOB's criticism is beyond unfair IMO.

He doesn't agree with you.

OK the quote is from years ago when he was a teenager. But I bet he has not changed too much. The fact that he is such a great player means he can have an impact in any of the 3 positions but 8 is defo his worst.

"I don't think I'm ever going to make a No8 but I'm just as happy playing No6 or No7. I just want to play, give me the jersey and I'll do my best."

Interesting.. So he is just as happy playing 6 or 7.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I think that SOB plays 8 very well, i honestly do.

Ferris 6, POM 7 and SOB 8 could be a very good system.

Based on what? A few games in the HC against nothing special.

[eirebilly]

I dont know Jen, i just do and feel that he could be a very good player there. Just my thoughts though

[hugo124]

think the definition of "natural 7" these days has come to mean nothing less than the abilities of richie mccaw. sob is a fine 7, although his strengths are underused there.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I dont know Jen, i just do and feel that he could be a very good player there. Just my thoughts though

If we had David Pocock waiting for a start....maybe I would try him there. But we just don't. POM may become a 7 but at the moment he is a guy who can play across the back row who's worst position is 8. Just like Seanie.

[Gibson]

I think this "specialist 7" craze is majorly blown out of proportion.

Apparently, its what helps win and compete in - World Cups. Jennings also proved it in 2 x HC Final wins. A natural 7 is not a craze. Its a vital necessity.

The breakdown is where its all at. That and the scrum - sadly in our case.

[eirebilly]

I think that POM could also be a very good 7 as well

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

I think that POM could also be a very good 7 as well

I'm sure you're right. But COULD is the operative word. If the IRFU want to insist that he be started there for Munster ahead of Wallace and Ronan. Then we'll see how he gets on.

For me Jennings is the best "Natural 7" we have. Perhaps I have blue tinted specs on there, but who is better? And no one (me included) is clamouring for him to be in there ahead of Heaslip or SOB.

[eirebilly]

Jennings? He is a 'Natural 7' but i feel that SOB and POM are better options as 7 than Jennings.

[Rory_Gallagher]

I think this "specialist 7" craze is majorly blown out of proportion.

Apparently, its what helps win and compete in - World Cups. Jennings also proved it in 2 x HC Final wins. A natural 7 is not a craze. Its a vital necessity.

The breakdown is where its all at. That and the scrum - sadly in our case.

South Africa 2007. France 2011, with Dusautoir winning player of the year specifically because of that game where he schooled the NZ back row once again (who are said to be the most balanced in the world). Leinster are doing pretty damn well with SOB at 7 too.

It is not a vital necessity, sorry but I find that ridiculous. So if we find a natural 7, we will immediately have balance, regardless of the fact we have someone under-performing (Heaslip)? Nope, I don't buy that at all. The balance applies to ALL THREE positions.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

Interesting.. So he is just as happy playing 6 or 7.

Yup. But no one is about to drop Ferris to accommodate a "Natural 7" and rightly so.

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