Chavez Jr the Dodger

Seems as if Bob Arum has strung this to all his fighters:

http://www.boxingscene.com/sergio-martinez-wants-drug-testing-chavez-jr-rejects-it--50869


Another fight dodge and excuse not to get beat.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are when Floyd asked for this many a person said he was putting it forward as an excuse to avoid Manny, one does have to wonder if those who put forward this argument will accuse Sergio of similar.

If it's true (and I'm always reluctant to take these kind of whispers at face value) then I'm slightly disappointed with Martinez; after chasing him so much, why give Chavez Jr any possible reason, no matter how small, to continue to avoid the fight?

Moreover, Chavez could take anything he likes, he'll still never be able to beat Martinez, unless the Argentine turns pensioner over night.

Don't think it will Rowlinator.

This was always going to be the case when Chavez has previous history using. Plus the way his last fight unfolded was a joke when he put on nearly 2 stone in 24 hours. Plus he was allowed to walk out of the venue without giving a weewee sample. Too many suspicions

88Chris05 wrote:

Moreover, Chavez could take anything he likes, he'll still never be able to beat Martinez, unless the Argentine turns pensioner over night.

Amen to that, Chavez can shoot up between rounds, it ain't making a blind bit of difference because to the best of my knowledge there has not been a talent drug invented yet.

Think a lot of people forget Chavez isn't all that bad and see him as a nobody due to him ducking Martinez and people hating him for it, to beat Rubio and Manfredo Jr - no matter how pap you believe the opposition is - beating them as convincingly as he did means that there is actually a fair bit of talent there.

Seems like Matinez has just given Chavez another excuse to avoid him if the report is true.

I always thought the reason Martinez was going after Chavez was for the pay day involved, rather than the title. As the ring champion, and de facto middleweight champion Im not sure what appeal the WBC belt has for him. Nor can I understand why he continues to hang onto that diamond belt.

manos de piedra wrote:Seems like Matinez has just given Chavez another excuse to avoid him if the report is true.

I always thought the reason Martinez was going after Chavez was for the pay day involved, rather than the title. As the ring champion, and de facto middleweight champion Im not sure what appeal the WBC belt has for him. Nor can I understand why he continues to hang onto that diamond belt.

He chucked the Diamond belt away due to the comments made by Uncle José about boxers hitting women - As Martinez is a poster boy and runs charities against that sort of thing he stated "He couldn't represent a governing body that allows and condones such behaviour" which was quite noble of him. Second to that the Diamond belt was worthless and Martinez probably had to pay sanctioning fees to own it.

The fact is, he lost the title outside the ring. He wasn't ordered a mandatory at the time so shouldn't have had to fight Zbik after they organised another fight.

Did he dump the diamond belt?

I could have sworn it was there during the Macklin fight.

The interview posted above with him above quotes him as saying he is interested in Chavez title so I dont think hes refusing to represent the WBC.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Think a lot of people forget Chavez isn't all that bad and see him as a nobody due to him ducking Martinez and people hating him for it, to beat Rubio and Manfredo Jr - no matter how pap you believe the opposition is - beating them as convincingly as he did means that there is actually a fair bit of talent there.

He's about as average a world champion as you could hope to see, he has two chances of beating Martinez and slims out of town.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Think a lot of people forget Chavez isn't all that bad and see him as a nobody due to him ducking Martinez and people hating him for it, to beat Rubio and Manfredo Jr - no matter how pap you believe the opposition is - beating them as convincingly as he did means that there is actually a fair bit of talent there.

He's about as average a world champion as you could hope to see, he has two chances of beating Martinez and slims out of town.

His domination of Manfredo was irritating - because it proved he wasn't as rubbish as I'd labelled him previously. He is not on Martinez' level - a guy who demolished Pwilly and Pavlik and stopped Dzinzruk does not fret over someone who struggled mightily with Rowland, Vanda and Molina.

Would also have Barker and Macklin as being better than anything Chavez has beaten, would give them both a very good chance against junior, I just hate the shame it brings to the family name, father was a legend who would fight anyone but his son is the complete opposite.

All fighters affiliated to Mayweather seem to be sticking the boot in now, Mosley and Alvarez are to be randomly tested before their fight.

Granted Chavez is not the best world champ there has been, but to label all the blame for not fighting Martinez on his shoulders is hardly his fault. Look no further than those who want to milk him for all he's worth. He brings in huge dollars because of his name and he is managed by none other than the leech in chief and trained by a man who has no compunction against pitting his charges against seriously and danmgerously weight drained fighters.

Also to say that Martinez would beat him easily is not altogether accurate. Martinez is very over-rated and p4p #3 hemost certainly is not. I wouldn;t even put him in the top 10 as things stand now. It wouldn;t surprise me if Martinez defeated Chavez, but equally I wouldn't be too surprised if Chavez beat him fair and square.

Dangerously weight drained? Oh yes Cotto who lost a whole extra pound.

Martinez having beaten Pavlik, Williams, Dzinziruk as well as two ranked fighters in Barker and Macklin is well worth a top ten ranking.

Ghosty, try not to bite mate. The whole Khan saga is done for now so this is the new "look at me" moment.

Martinez not a top 10 p4p fighter?? We will let that slide. Nice try Az :-)

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dangerously weight drained? Oh yes Cotto who lost a whole extra pound.

Martinez having beaten Pavlik, Williams, Dzinziruk as well as two ranked fighters in Barker and Macklin is well worth a top ten ranking.

Asking SSM to come in at 140 is very dangerous. Asking anyone to come in under their proper fight weight is dangerous. YOu may say 145 is no big deal. So I take it you wouldn''t argue too much if they made him come in at 144. After all its only an extra pound.

You may disagree (fair enough) but I am of the opinion that making a fighter come in below his optimum may be dangerous to their welfare.

Pavlik was over-rated. Lara showed where PWil is. Dont know much about Dzin and Barkey, Maklin are regional level fighters. That resume is not worthy of top 3 P4P imo.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Ghosty, try not to bite mate. The whole Khan saga is done for now so this is the new "look at me" moment.

Martinez not a top 10 p4p fighter?? We will let that slide. Nice try Az :-)

Go to sleep mate.

You're right Dee I can't be bothered satisfying him.

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dangerously weight drained? Oh yes Cotto who lost a whole extra pound.

Martinez having beaten Pavlik, Williams, Dzinziruk as well as two ranked fighters in Barker and Macklin is well worth a top ten ranking.

Asking SSM to come in at 140 is very dangerous. Asking anyone to come in under their proper fight weight is dangerous. YOu may say 145 is no big deal. So I take it you wouldn''t argue too much if they made him come in at 144. After all its only an extra pound.

You may disagree (fair enough) but I am of the opinion that making a fighter come in below his optimum may be dangerous to their welfare.

Pavlik was over-rated. Lara showed where PWil is. Dont know much about Dzin and Barkey, Maklin are regional level fighters. That resume is not worthy of top 3 P4P imo.

Do you not think Williams is where he is now because of Martinez? A seriously tough first fight followed by a crushing KO are gonna take their toll on anyone. Wasn't too long ago I remember people holding Williams up as the only man who might give PBF a fight. Martinez deserves some credit for that win. You can pick holes in anyones resume if you want to..

Wlad Klitschko should be P4P#3.

Who else could you have Donaire has been rotten in his last couple of fights, Marquez in the last couple of years has lost to both Mayweather and Pacquiao and his victories in between haven't been anything of note so he falls short. Wonjongkam and Segura both lost last time out. Hopkins just isn't that good any more. Martinez has looked decent but not much else against average guys like Barker and Macklin.

I would have Andre Ward in 4th and Martinez 5th.

paperbag_puncher wrote:

azania wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Dangerously weight drained? Oh yes Cotto who lost a whole extra pound.

Martinez having beaten Pavlik, Williams, Dzinziruk as well as two ranked fighters in Barker and Macklin is well worth a top ten ranking.

Asking SSM to come in at 140 is very dangerous. Asking anyone to come in under their proper fight weight is dangerous. YOu may say 145 is no big deal. So I take it you wouldn''t argue too much if they made him come in at 144. After all its only an extra pound.

You may disagree (fair enough) but I am of the opinion that making a fighter come in below his optimum may be dangerous to their welfare.

Pavlik was over-rated. Lara showed where PWil is. Dont know much about Dzin and Barkey, Maklin are regional level fighters. That resume is not worthy of top 3 P4P imo.

Do you not think Williams is where he is now because of Martinez? A seriously tough first fight followed by a crushing KO are gonna take their toll on anyone. Wasn't too long ago I remember people holding Williams up as the only man who might give PBF a fight. Martinez deserves some credit for that win. You can pick holes in anyones resume if you want to..

pavlik has fast become the most underrated fighter in the world. although without the cuts he was on the brink of turning the martinez fight around. shame we are unlikely to get a rematch unless its held in a bar

He was not anywhere near turning the fight around as you say. Martinez got knocked down off balance, then turned up the heat and absolutely battered Pavlik from pillar to post. Martinez cut him with his fists and there really isn't any reason why it wouldn't happen again if they had a rematch.

The problem with Pavlik is he went so badly off the rails. Became a full blown alcoholic and almost died from an allergic reaction to antibiotics prior to the Martinez bout.

manos de piedra wrote:The problem with Pavlik is he went so badly off the rails. Became a full blown alcoholic and almost died from an allergic reaction to antibiotics prior to the Martinez bout.

The problem was Hopkins made an idiot out of him. Pavlik never recovered from it.

No shame in losing in to Hopkins in my opinion.

I think it was Pavliks problems outside the ring that caused him the most trouble myself.

azania wrote:Granted Chavez is not the best world champ there has been, but to label all the blame for not fighting Martinez on his shoulders is hardly his fault. Look no further than those who want to milk him for all he's worth. He brings in huge dollars because of his name and he is managed by none other than the leech in chief and trained by a man who has no compunction against pitting his charges against seriously and danmgerously weight drained fighters.

Also to say that Martinez would beat him easily is not altogether accurate. Martinez is very over-rated and p4p #3 hemost certainly is not. I wouldn;t even put him in the top 10 as things stand now. It wouldn;t surprise me if Martinez defeated Chavez, but equally I wouldn't be too surprised if Chavez beat him fair and square.

Subtlety, old boy. That's what your missing. If you're wondering why you're not getting the reactions you used to. I hope your not losing your touch in a D4esque slide. Your better than this!

manos de piedra wrote:No shame in losing in to Hopkins in my opinion.

I think it was Pavliks problems outside the ring that caused him the most trouble myself.

Yeah but those problems seemed to muliply after the loss to Hopkins. Pavlik seemed to go into self destruct mode. How many times did he duck Paul Williams? Hs heart was broken.

The difference between Donaire and Martinez to Ward is that they have recently beaten bigger fighters than themselves which helps in a pound for pound sense. People are quick to forget the demolitions of Montiel and Williams which outdo anything Ward has done combined with recent records that more than compare.

1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Martinez
4. Donaire
5. Marquez
6. Gamboa
7. Ward
8. Hopkins

How I see it at the present moment.

ward came out on top of a tournament that had the best in his weight at it. Yes he got lucky with guys pulling out but he beat Kessler and Froch with a bit to spare that surely puts him higher up the list.

I would go for
1. Mayweather
2. Pacquiao
3. Wlad Klitschko
4. Ward
5. Martinez
6. Donaire
7. Marquez
8. Gamboa

Can't really see any argument for Wlad being so high when he's beating smaller poor fighters over and over.

Ward has beaten Kessler and Froch in the past couple of years but the manner of victory over Pavlik, Williams and Dzinziruk is more impressive while Donaire has Montiel as well as world title wins across 3 different weights. Too much focus is placed upon the performances against Macklin and Vazquez yet Pacquiao is placed second despite looking even poorer in his last outing. Marquez simply for the performance against Pacquiao has to be high regardless of the result.

Wlad is so high because he has dominated a division for longer than anyone around. He's beaten everyone out there for him and did so with ease more often than not.

Ward, Martinez and Donaire are very close I have Ward just ahead based on his last performance against Froch. In both Martinez's last 2 and Donaires last 2 they have not been that impressive.

Marquez in the last few years best wins are over Diaz and Katsidis. His performance against Pacquiao was good but he came up short again and was schooled by Mayweather. So he gets marked down for me.

Well Marquez simply didn't lose to Pacquiao while no fighter should be marked down for losing to Mayweather in any case.

Think that Ward gets over rated based on winning the super six which was good but shouldn't give him any extra kudos.

He never won though did he? He has fell short against the best and hasn't had a really good win in a few years.

Ward is the top man at his weight and that is a strong weight not many claim that just now.

Marquez did win and if we are critical of Martinez's recent performances then we must be complimentary of Marquez performance against Pacquiao where he was clearly the better man.

Dodger....Ducker...coward etc........

Do think guys who have attained the level of success as Chavez jr deserve some respect...

Sure he's not his old man......Wonderful he was.. but don't like these words being bandied about ..

Used too much in my opinion..............

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Dodger....Ducker...coward etc........

Do think guys who have attained the level of success as Chavez jr deserve some respect...

Sure he's not his old man......Wonderful he was.. but don't like these words being bandied about ..

Used too much in my opinion..............

Coward - no.

Dodger - yes. He has dodged his major challenge - now this may be the fault of his handlers - and in truth it probably is. However - it is his major challenge

Bradley suffers from not having fought Khan - so Chavez has to suffer from having actively tried to fight people other than Martinez.

And Bradley was a clear and legitimate titlist - whereas Chavez held some meaningless minor belt in the organisation's pantheon of belts.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:Granted Chavez is not the best world champ there has been, but to label all the blame for not fighting Martinez on his shoulders is hardly his fault. Look no further than those who want to milk him for all he's worth. He brings in huge dollars because of his name and he is managed by none other than the leech in chief and trained by a man who has no compunction against pitting his charges against seriously and danmgerously weight drained fighters.

Also to say that Martinez would beat him easily is not altogether accurate. Martinez is very over-rated and p4p #3 hemost certainly is not. I wouldn;t even put him in the top 10 as things stand now. It wouldn;t surprise me if Martinez defeated Chavez, but equally I wouldn't be too surprised if Chavez beat him fair and square.

Subtlety, old boy. That's what your missing. If you're wondering why you're not getting the reactions you used to. I hope your not losing your touch in a D4esque slide. Your better than this!

From what I've seen of Martinez, I just dont think he is as good as people make him out to be. Perhaps because he's fighting at a heavier weight. Who knows. But a top 3 p4p shouldn't be having a semi argument with Macklin or Barker. Leave that to Chavez et al. I'd pick Chavez to beat both of those guys comfortably.

Lower top 10 possibly, but certainly not 3. Other than the obvious two, JMM, Wlad, the other philippine boxer and that thai guy with the name I cant pronounce let alone spell are higher than him, or should be.

oxring wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Dodger....Ducker...coward etc........

Do think guys who have attained the level of success as Chavez jr deserve some respect...

Sure he's not his old man......Wonderful he was.. but don't like these words being bandied about ..

Used too much in my opinion..............

Coward - no.

Dodger - yes. He has dodged his major challenge - now this may be the fault of his handlers - and in truth it probably is. However - it is his major challenge

Bradley suffers from not having fought Khan - so Chavez has to suffer from having actively tried to fight people other than Martinez.

And Bradley was a clear and legitimate titlist - whereas Chavez held some meaningless minor belt in the organisation's pantheon of belts.

I dont see how any fault can be levelled at Bradley for not fighting Khan. The guy had managerial issues. Honestly, some guys here seriously believe boxers have total control over their careers. Rubbish. Total rubbish. Look at how DeGale's career will stall if he gives Warren issues. Who do you think has the power there?

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:Granted Chavez is not the best world champ there has been, but to label all the blame for not fighting Martinez on his shoulders is hardly his fault. Look no further than those who want to milk him for all he's worth. He brings in huge dollars because of his name and he is managed by none other than the leech in chief and trained by a man who has no compunction against pitting his charges against seriously and danmgerously weight drained fighters.

Also to say that Martinez would beat him easily is not altogether accurate. Martinez is very over-rated and p4p #3 hemost certainly is not. I wouldn;t even put him in the top 10 as things stand now. It wouldn;t surprise me if Martinez defeated Chavez, but equally I wouldn't be too surprised if Chavez beat him fair and square.

Subtlety, old boy. That's what your missing. If you're wondering why you're not getting the reactions you used to. I hope your not losing your touch in a D4esque slide. Your better than this!

From what I've seen of Martinez, I just dont think he is as good as people make him out to be. Perhaps because he's fighting at a heavier weight. Who knows. But a top 3 p4p shouldn't be having a semi argument with Macklin or Barker. Leave that to Chavez et al. I'd pick Chavez to beat both of those guys comfortably.

Lower top 10 possibly, but certainly not 3. Other than the obvious two, JMM, Wlad, the other philippine boxer and that thai guy with the name I cant pronounce let alone spell are higher than him, or should be.

That the Thai bloke (Wonjongkam) who famously lost by a sensational KO to a journeyman last month? He's v lucky - or you are very generous - most people lose their P4P place after a defeat like that.

Donaire? After his recent lethargic performances?

Wlad in a p4p top 5? Wonders never cease. Only time I've seen him that high.

For sure - if people were going to go Marquez at 3 - I wouldn't argue - however the idea that Martinez is light years behind Marquez in recent achievements isn't fair.

Super D Boon wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:No shame in losing in to Hopkins in my opinion.

I think it was Pavliks problems outside the ring that caused him the most trouble myself.

Yeah but those problems seemed to muliply after the loss to Hopkins. Pavlik seemed to go into self destruct mode. How many times did he duck Paul Williams? Hs heart was broken.

After Hopkins he went back down to middleweight and pretty much dominated against Rubio. Certainly didnt show any ill effects in that fight. It was ony after that fight his problems with alcohol and inury began, as well as a split with his trainer.

I dont think he ducked Williams. He had an infection and suffered a serious allergic reaction to the antibiotics he was given for it. Hes fought Taylor x 2, stepped up to face Hopkins, fought Martinez etc. I dont think hes a ducker. Just another fighter with problems affecting him outside the ring.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:Granted Chavez is not the best world champ there has been, but to label all the blame for not fighting Martinez on his shoulders is hardly his fault. Look no further than those who want to milk him for all he's worth. He brings in huge dollars because of his name and he is managed by none other than the leech in chief and trained by a man who has no compunction against pitting his charges against seriously and danmgerously weight drained fighters.

Also to say that Martinez would beat him easily is not altogether accurate. Martinez is very over-rated and p4p #3 hemost certainly is not. I wouldn;t even put him in the top 10 as things stand now. It wouldn;t surprise me if Martinez defeated Chavez, but equally I wouldn't be too surprised if Chavez beat him fair and square.

Subtlety, old boy. That's what your missing. If you're wondering why you're not getting the reactions you used to. I hope your not losing your touch in a D4esque slide. Your better than this!

From what I've seen of Martinez, I just dont think he is as good as people make him out to be. Perhaps because he's fighting at a heavier weight. Who knows. But a top 3 p4p shouldn't be having a semi argument with Macklin or Barker. Leave that to Chavez et al. I'd pick Chavez to beat both of those guys comfortably.

Lower top 10 possibly, but certainly not 3. Other than the obvious two, JMM, Wlad, the other philippine boxer and that thai guy with the name I cant pronounce let alone spell are higher than him, or should be.

That the Thai bloke (Wonjongkam) who famously lost by a sensational KO to a journeyman last month? He's v lucky - or you are very generous - most people lose their P4P place after a defeat like that.

Donaire? After his recent lethargic performances?

Wlad in a p4p top 5? Wonders never cease. Only time I've seen him that high.

For sure - if people were going to go Marquez at 3 - I wouldn't argue - however the idea that Martinez is light years behind Marquez in recent achievements isn't fair.

I'd add Ward and put him higher than Martinez. Donaire's last fight weas against a guy who decided to take evasive and pacifist actions when engaging him. If a boxer decides to do the tangho with you, its not easy to do much. He should have taken Macklin out earlier and Barker who are hardly boxers who would setthe division alight.

I'm confused - thus far your top 10 seems to be:

#1 Mayweather
#2 Pacquiao
#3 Marquez
#4 Wladimir Klitschko
#5 Donaire
#6 Wonjongkam
#7 Ward
#8 Martinez

Which is all very interesting - but doesn't really reflect a very sensible analysis - and rather reflects someone desperately swinging on the pendulum of popular opinion.

Ignoring the top 2 - we get to Marquez - which I will accept at 3 - even if he isn't there on my list - for his astonishing effort against Manny.

Leaving us at 4 - Wlad. Wlad has divisional dominance - and has recently beaten his second biggest challenge in Haye - however - when was the last time he beat a p4p opponent?

So we get to your 5 in Donaire - who you are making excuses for because his last opponent didn't walk forwards and ask Donaire to knock him out. It was no more a disappointing performance than Martinez' against Barker, however - and Martinez stopped Macklin - who put in a fantastic shift. Seemingly - you look at records when records suit your argument - but you look at styles when styles suit your argument. It would be a brave man to suggest that Macklin didn't put in a fantastic performance.

Now your #6 in Wonjongkam. He's fallen off most people's p4p lists - after all - he did just get kayoed by a journeyman. Why is he still on yours? Are you pretending the KO didn't happen?

Ward? I can understand - but until he cements/consolidates his position - its a bit premature. He has fantastic fundamentals - perhaps the best behind Floyd - but he hasn't beaten a top 10 p4p opponent.

Martinez gained his position on the back of a good win over p4p ranked Pavlik and a demolition job on the p4p ranked Williams.

It would be extremely harsh to remove his p4p placing because he hasn't looked good enough in his wins over his opposition.

By that logic - Roy Jones Jr wasn't p4p #1 during the latter stages of his LHW reign - when he didn't look as impressive as before in his career - even though he was dominating and winning - and B-Hop should have been given that status.

Both ideas are frankly ludicrous for me.

Didn't even realise wonj fought recently......and lost. I dont pay much attention to minimum weight fighters. SM would sueeze into the top 10 as 8 ota. He is good, but the others you listed are better imo.

Maybe he needs to step down in weight.

As for Pav and Pwil being rated so highly, I dont see it myself. I believe its just American publications bigging up their fighters to an extent based on excitement as opposed to actual talent.

I like the look of Broner.

Dont get me wrong, Martinez is a damned fine fighter, its just that the others are p4p better fighters.

You say ward hasn't beaten a top 10 p4p fighter. Hardly his fault there aren't any in his weight division. Took to school the next best in his division and hasn't looked like losing in any fight.

I'm not trying to downplay the achievements of any of them - they are all fantastic fighters and definitely top 10 - although I had a sneaky suspicion that you hadn't been following Wonj recently.

Problem is - if you don't really watch him - why was he in your top 10? Surely you can't rate a guy who you don't watch AND haven't read about? Even I wouldn't do that for an old timer...:P

I am trying to remind you of Martinez' achievments in the not that distant past - and that demolishing Williams in 2 rounds - a p4p top 10 fighter I might add and once "the most avoided man between 147 and 160" is no mean feat.

I've been watching him on you tube and liked what I saw.

His demolition of PWil was great. Best punch of the year by a distance. But what he did was to expose PWil as the hype he was.

I never really could guage Pavlik as he looked got against Taylor after coming back from hell. But since then Pav hasn't really done much. More like Taylor not being that good than Pav being very good. Styles etc.

Haha, Ox

Maybe you should throw Az a bigger shovel cause that hole is getting deeper.

"I watched some videos on YouTube and liked him" hahahahahhahaahahah are you actually for real!? That is your basis of placing someone onto your top 10!!!!!

I said from the start you were making a "look at me" point and you have just cemented that by being absolutely embarrassed by Oxring. Honestly I'm laughing just reading what you've wrote.

You don't watch lower weight fighters but you have them on your P4P list. Fantastic Az.

I knew you where a bit nuts but jeez!!!

I don't understand why Marquez gets anywhere near 3 tbh. He stays in the top 10 but only due to controversy in the Manny fight. He still drops places due to the L on his record.

1: Floyd Mayweather
2: Manny Pacquiao
3: Sergio Martinez
4: Nonito Donaire
5: Miguel Cotto
6: Wladimer Klit
7: Juan Marquez
8: Andre Ward
9: Yorg. Gamboa
10: Timothy Bradley

That's more like it ;-)

oxring wrote:

Leaving us at 4 - Wlad. Wlad has divisional dominance - and has recently beaten his second biggest challenge in Haye - however - when was the last time he beat a p4p opponent?

Ward? I can understand - but until he cements/consolidates his position - its a bit premature. He has fantastic fundamentals - perhaps the best behind Floyd - but he hasn't beaten a top 10 p4p opponent.

Bit harsh downgrading the above as they haven't beat a top 10 p4p opponent Oxy? As far as I can see Wlad has never avoided anyone and just keeps seeing off all challengers. Realistically his brothers the only realistic p4p heavyweight around and we know why he won't fight him.

I don't think Ward could have done much more lately. Beat his 2 most highly rated available challengers in Kessler and Froch rather comfortably. Its not his fault there are no fellow super middles in the p4p top 10?

I would have it pretty fine margins between Martinez, Wlad and Ward myself. I dont think its clear cut.

I dont think its fair to say Martinez exposed Williams. Lets remeber he lost the first encounter (could have gone either way though) but it wasnt like he just knocked the guy out in a couple of rounds at the first time of asking.

oxring wrote:
Ward? I can understand - but until he cements/consolidates his position - its a bit premature. He has fantastic fundamentals - perhaps the best behind Floyd - but he hasn't beaten a top 10 p4p

Ward? I can understand - but until he cements/consolidates his position - its a bit premature. He has fantastic fundamentals - perhaps the best behind Floyd - but he hasn't beaten a top 10 p4p opponent.
 
 
Top 4 SMW's - Ward, Froch, Kessler, Bute
 
Ward has beaten - Kessler and Froch
 
So unless your using this arguement just for the sake to disagree with Az which is highly understandable then its a bit of a numpty thing to say
 
In response to Martinez supposedly exposing Williams as a 'hype' is also a damn stupid thing to say. Williams was caught by a great punch from an equally great opponent in Martinez. Williams has some fantastic wins on his record including a hard fought decision against Martinez. His last outing may not have been his best by a long shot but based on his record and past performances it was most definatly an off night. It's moronic comments like this that really make me question so called 'fans of boxings' mental capacity
 
After all - it was lucky we had Norton to expose the Ali hype job eh...... (No I'm not comparing Williams to Ali - I'm comparing the scenario)