Number 8 Choices of the Home Nations

by maestegmafia Mon 02 Apr 2012, 10:56 pm

Lets look at who the board rate as the best Number 8s possible suggestions for the Lions next year.

Pick two Number 8s from the Poll below.

by Mad for Chelsea Mon 02 Apr 2012, 11:14 pm

interesting one this:

Morgan is a fine prospect, but seems to struggle to play 80 minutes of high intensity test rugby as of yet.

Dowson will most certainly not go, he offers versatility but if that's what we're after O'Brien is a much much better choice.

Heaslip was out of form this 6N, but is a very fine player. Indeed, probably the best player on that list.

Denton had a great start to the 6Ns but faded away (then again so did Scotland).

Faletau was consistently good to very good, but doesn't offer the same carrying threat the others do IMO.

In the end I went with Morgan and Heaslip, but I'd be happy with any of the options there (except Dowson).

by **rodders** Mon 02 Apr 2012, 11:15 pm

Denton and Faletau on form.

I'd be tempted to bring Heaslip for his big match experience but for me his form isn't good enough right now.

Sean O'Brien can cover 8 as well.

by alcoombe Mon 02 Apr 2012, 11:58 pm

I don't think Dowson should be in this poll. He's not an 8, but a flanker who plays at the back of the scrum in an emergency, and by next year the recovered Crane & Fearns will be in the EPS in his stead.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 02 Apr 2012, 11:59 pm

On form, Morgan and Denton.

by dummy_half Tue 03 Apr 2012, 9:16 am

Certainly a position of potential strength for the Lions, and I can make a case for any of the four first choice starters.

Morgan is the closest thing to a modern Scott Quinnell - big, strong and surprisingly quick. Powerful in contact and with a good off-load. There are legitimate questions about his stamina, although he seems to be improving even over the course of the 6Ns. I'm also yet to be convinced about his work at the breakdown, where I'd certainly rate Heaslip and Faletau ahead of him, and his relative lack of height makes him less of a lineout option that the others.

Denton is more like Dallaglio - not quite so bulky as Morgan but fast and powerful as a ball carrier and a big tackler. Again, maybe his work at the breakdown is less effective than Heaslip and Faletau.

Faletau for me is a guy who is very solid at all the elements of a number 8's game but perhaps without any one thing being outstanding.

Heaslip has always impressed me again as a solid all-rounder and with very good hands, but he hasn't shown outstanding form this year in an Ireland side that seemed a bit short of ideas (if hoofing the ball up in the air didn't work).

As we're going to Australia, I think conditions would suit Denton's athleticism. Second choice is really any of the other three - depends a bit on the gameplan and on the balance of the back row. For example, I think Morgan would work well will Warburton and Lydiate or Ferris whereas Faletau or Heaslip would be better options if Croft is playing at 6.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 03 Apr 2012, 9:18 am

Denton and Faletau.

by doctor_grey Tue 03 Apr 2012, 9:22 am

I only picked one - Denton. Right now, I don't think number 8 is a big area of strength. But, a year from now, it might be if Morgan and Faletau continue to develop.

by gowales Tue 03 Apr 2012, 1:14 pm

Morgan and Denton

by wickedwasp Tue 03 Apr 2012, 1:24 pm

I'm also going with Morgan and Denton on form.

Heaslip on his best form, however would be ahead of both.

by ChequeredJersey Tue 03 Apr 2012, 1:49 pm

Faletau only 3rd? Hard call though, went with Faletau and Morgan, because I think Denton might end up playing 6 Internationally

by bedfordwelsh Tue 03 Apr 2012, 2:13 pm

I went for Faletau and Heaslip.

But with the exception of Dowson I think any of the others could well go as first choice.

Faletau is talented beyong belief and has fantastic hands and vision.

Heaslip on form is the best my country mile but has been off form or was for IReland.

Morgan is your typical barnstorming No8 but can he last a full 80 high intensity.

Dneton has burst onto the scene so lets see how he goes on tour and in the AIs

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 Apr 2012, 3:14 pm

Heaslip not looked great for a long time.

I'd go Morgan + Faletau although SOB would allow one of these to be dropped as he offers excellent backrow cover.

by dummy_half Tue 03 Apr 2012, 4:10 pm

Sgt
Remember it's likely to be about a 37 player squad, so there's scope to take 2 specialists for each back row position with at least one extra - SOB would be a very good candidate for this position, being in the squad almost as a specialist replacement because of his proven ability to cover all three back row spots.

I reckon Croft or Ryan Jones has a chance of being in the squad as well as cover for both 2nd row and back row positions.

by bluestonevedder Tue 03 Apr 2012, 4:28 pm

I'd go with Morgan and Faletau. Both very impressive players, but quite different as well.

@Dummy_half, agree regarding SOB- he's the perfect backrow cover option, and adds real go forward in attack. Superb player.

Also, Ryan jones has been impressive recently, and I thought he had a very good 6N. Seems that he's very much a utility forward now, since the Welsh backrow is very settled, but he's too good to leave out! Very happy for him that he's re-found some form.

by mckay1402 Tue 03 Apr 2012, 4:53 pm

For me its Denton and faletau. I think both bring different strengths but both are pretty awesome

by Morgannwg Tue 03 Apr 2012, 5:45 pm

Faletau, Morgan, Denton. I suppose Toby can cover 7 for the Lions of necesary.

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 03 Apr 2012, 6:08 pm

Personally I don't think Jones is of the standard required. Morgan + Faletau with SOB utility is my shout then.

by Guest Tue 03 Apr 2012, 6:47 pm

Pitty Faletau didnt get to showcase his form for the Dragons before the 6nations, he was absolutely ridiculous for a few games, I think back-to-back MOTM performances.

by maestegmafia Tue 03 Apr 2012, 6:52 pm

Faletau and Heaslip are my choices. Heaslip has been number one for five years. A great player, recent dip for Ireland but performs well for Leinster.

Faletau is the Heir apparent. A fantastic talent so young and has already shown such a fantastic natural ability.

I imagine Heaslip to start the first test but for Faletau to oust him through the series.

Denton showed greet form for the scots. Let's hope he continues to show better and better performances and maybe he will make the team too.

by slartibartfast Tue 03 Apr 2012, 6:59 pm

Denton all arms and legs

Morgan will go just because of his bulk

Toby - hmm... Not sure if he's the best 8 but I have a feeling he'll go

by Geordie Tue 03 Apr 2012, 11:03 pm

If Crane can come back fit and flying then Morgan could have a battle just for his England spot...then we'll see if Fearns is a real deal challenger aswell...

Morgans fitness will improve more and more...and he is a serious prospect...

Wasnt Crane Lancasters captain at Saxons level?

Anyway id go Denton and Morgan...

by drsambo1928 Tue 03 Apr 2012, 11:12 pm

It's gotta be Heaslip and Faletau. Who starts depends on Heaslip's form. Faletau is mr.consistent and he will start if Heaslip has another poor season. Morgan, while I was impressed by him, I feel as if he will be outshone next year and may turn out to be a one hit wonder. However I could be completely wrong and he could have another great season.

by flyhalffactory Tue 03 Apr 2012, 11:18 pm

Heaslip for his ability and experience, Denton for his superb MOM performances in a struggling Scottish pack, and Ben Morgan for his bulk and barmstorming runs.

Faletau is very close, and could easily slip in to start but I feel his performances dipped against quality opposition over the last 9 months

by drsambo1928 Tue 03 Apr 2012, 11:21 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Heaslip for his ability and experience, Denton for his superb MOM performances in a struggling Scottish pack, and Ben Morgan for his bulk and barmstorming runs.

Faletau is very close, and could easily slip in to start but I feel his performances dipped against quality opposition over the last 9 months

I agree with your view on Heaslip but not Denton. Denton played well against England but slipped off against everyone else. Ben Morgan could be there if injury hit Faletau or the Heas.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 04 Apr 2012, 10:47 am

drsambo1928 wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Heaslip for his ability and experience, Denton for his superb MOM performances in a struggling Scottish pack, and Ben Morgan for his bulk and barmstorming runs.

Faletau is very close, and could easily slip in to start but I feel his performances dipped against quality opposition over the last 9 months

I agree with your view on Heaslip but not Denton. Denton played well against England but slipped off against everyone else. Ben Morgan could be there if injury hit Faletau or the Heas.

Can you provide any evidence for this claim regarding Denton or is it just something that you 'observed'? Seems to have been missed by most other posters on here if the current standings in the poll are anything to go by, particularly impressive when you consider the paucity of Scots on here?

by jay_welsh Wed 04 Apr 2012, 11:23 am

Faletau is almost a certain for me. Shaun Edwards will probably be defence coach, which means he'll want the best tackling number 8 to go, and that means Toby.

by **George Carlin** Wed 04 Apr 2012, 11:52 am

Some of the 6N stats (here, courtesy of the Telegraph) showed very little to choose between Denton and Faletau - especially in attack:

Defenders Beaten
1 Wesley Fofana France 16
2 Robert Kearney Ireland 15
2 George North Wales 15
4 Alex Cuthbert Wales 14
5 Leigh Halfpenny Wales 11
6 Dave Denton Scotland 9
6 Toby Faletau Wales 9
8 Stuart Hogg Scotland 8

Carries
1 Dave Denton Scotland 65
2 Toby Faletau Wales 59
2 Sean Lamont Scotland 59

I think what they also demonstrate is very little evidence for Denton having "slipped off", whatever that may mean.

by Comfort Wed 04 Apr 2012, 2:34 pm

I voted Denton/Faletau.

Faletau was excellant in the world cup and good - very good in all of the 6nations games. Hes excellant defensively and he can attack very well.

Denton seems to work better with another bruiser/tackler (a la Ferris/Brown/Lydiate) at 6 - no stats to back this up, just what i thought of him over the 6nations with Strokosch/Barclay there.

Heaslip is top of the tree but his form hasnt been great for a while now, Morgan showed glimpses of what he can do, and no doubt there'll be more to come from him in the near future (Im gutted we couldnt find him a nice welsh lass to convince him to stay in merthyr - would probably have taken more than a nice lass mind...) but I feel this tour is slightly too early for him.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 04 Apr 2012, 2:40 pm

The thing I really like about Morgan at 8, is his surprising pace and agility. Plus his handling/offloading was very good too. I think he could develop into something great to be honest. His fitness is a barrier, but one he can overcome quite rapidly IMO.

by **Biltong** Wed 04 Apr 2012, 2:42 pm

I like Denton a lot, but went for Morgan.

by glamorganalun Wed 04 Apr 2012, 6:02 pm

Based on this 6N and not the RWC I would go for Ben Morgan and Denton. I suspect Morgan will not be fit enough for Gatland, I rather Gatland go with Denton and R Jones but I suspect t will be the fumbling Faletau.

by flyhalffactory Wed 04 Apr 2012, 8:01 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
drsambo1928 wrote:
flyhalffactory wrote:Heaslip for his ability and experience, Denton for his superb MOM performances in a struggling Scottish pack, and Ben Morgan for his bulk and barmstorming runs.

Faletau is very close, and could easily slip in to start but I feel his performances dipped against quality opposition over the last 9 months

I agree with your view on Heaslip but not Denton. Denton played well against England but slipped off against everyone else. Ben Morgan could be there if injury hit Faletau or the Heas.
Can you provide any evidence for this claim regarding Denton or is it just something that you 'observed'? Seems to have been missed by most other posters on here if the current standings in the poll are anything to go by, particularly impressive when you consider the paucity of Scots on here?

100% spot on AsLong, I was going to highlight this too................ but you got in first, its amazing how posters "overhear something" and latch on to it. I believe Denton was the top performing 6Ns number 8 with regard to men beaten, ball carries, and defensive hits, he was superb against England MOM in my opinion, but his performances thereon didnt go down that much contrary to "popular" belief.

Faletua is a great prospect, going forward superb but he deffo has defensive frailities

by The Bachelor Wed 04 Apr 2012, 8:38 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:Faletua is a great prospect, going forward superb but he deffo has defensive frailities

He made over 70 tackles in the RWC missing 0 (27 vs Samoa, 0 missed according to ESPN) and made 52 and missed 1 this 6N.

by doctornickolas Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:14 pm

Faletua is a great prospect, going forward superb but he deffo has defensive frailities

Headscratch

by maestegmafia Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:16 pm

FHF That was a strange statement. Way off the mark on w
one of the best defender at the RWC last year and only 20 years old.

by slartibartfast Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:20 pm

Toby defensive frailalties?

C'mon you guys, back it up with some evidence

by sugarNspikes Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:23 pm

Morgan and Denton on current form, but Heaslip is class too and has been there and done it.

Faletau could be one for the future, but I'm not sure yet. I'm not thoroughly convinced about him. The other 3 are currently in front of him.

Dowson shouldn't be on the list as it stands though I hear he's had some decent club form since the 6Ns.

by Taffineastbourne Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:37 pm

How many minutes of International Rugby has Morgan played?
Must admit that I am amazed that he is so much more highly regarded than more experienced players.
Morgan is promising,I grant you.When he lasts 80 mins at test match level I could take him more seriously.

by maestegmafia Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:44 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:How many minutes of International Rugby has Morgan played?
Must admit that I am amazed that he is so much more highly regarded than more experienced players.
Morgan is promising,I grant you.When he lasts 80 mins at test match level I could take him more seriously.

I am incredibly surprised at the change of support for Ben Morgan from the derision he caused pre six nations when he announced his allegiance to England. Now he is a more popular choice than Jamie Heaslip.

by sugarNspikes Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:47 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:How many minutes of International Rugby has Morgan played?
Must admit that I am amazed that he is so much more highly regarded than more experienced players.
Morgan is promising,I grant you.When he lasts 80 mins at test match level I could take him more seriously.

I am incredibly surprised at the change of support for Ben Morgan from the derision he caused pre six nations when he announced his allegiance to England. Now he is a more popular choice than Jamie Heaslip.

He also seems a lot less popular in Wales (where he was incredibly highly rated) since he remembered he was English.

Human nature is a funny thing innit? Smile

by Cymroglan Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:53 pm

sugarNspikes
Some rated him but most said he would always be No2 to Faletau.
Of course he is a good player but I also have my doubts that he has a 80 min game in him and for that reason I would put him third choice behind Heaslip and Faletau

by Taffineastbourne Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:56 pm

sugarNspikes wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:How many minutes of International Rugby has Morgan played?
Must admit that I am amazed that he is so much more highly regarded than more experienced players.
Morgan is promising,I grant you.When he lasts 80 mins at test match level I could take him more seriously.

I am incredibly surprised at the change of support for Ben Morgan from the derision he caused pre six nations when he announced his allegiance to England. Now he is a more popular choice than Jamie Heaslip.
He also seems a lot less popular in Wales (where he was incredibly highly rated) since he remembered he was English.

Human nature is a funny thing innit?

What are you on about?
He was/is a promising young player at the Scarlets.Suddenly he is a Lions contender based on a couple of cameos for England.Surreal.English press building him up???? Rolling Eyes

by Liam Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:56 pm

I'm surprised people see Morgan to be ahead of Faletau, his states back up opinion that he had a very good six nations on the back of a very good world cup campaign. Morgan is a good prospect but probably looked allot better than he actually was due to him coming on for Dowsen, who didn't really have an impact at no.8. Morgan needs to improve his match fitness however, if he wants to become a very good no.8, which he certainly is capable.

Denton and Faletau for me, Morgan needs another year or two to prove himself, Denton and Faletau were the stand out 8's and should be the ones going to Aus, Ryan Jones to be covering 8 if needs be or Heaslip if he regains some form.

by slartibartfast Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:57 pm

So you'd leave out a world cup semi finalist and grandslam winner for Denton and Morgan?

Crazy

Always wanted Morgan to play for Wales as cover for Toby.

I can picture Toby tackling his heart out for 50 mins then Morgan coming on - that's the last thing you'd want as a defending team.

by maestegmafia Wed 04 Apr 2012, 9:58 pm

sugarNspikes wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:How many minutes of International Rugby has Morgan played?
Must admit that I am amazed that he is so much more highly regarded than more experienced players.
Morgan is promising,I grant you.When he lasts 80 mins at test match level I could take him more seriously.

I am incredibly surprised at the change of support for Ben Morgan from the derision he caused pre six nations when he announced his allegiance to England. Now he is a more popular choice than Jamie Heaslip.
He also seems a lot less popular in Wales (where he was incredibly highly rated) since he remembered he was English.

Human nature is a funny thing innit?

He was rarely rated better than Faletau. He is still rated very highly by the Welsh, you'll see many have him as their vote on this poll. Though when he is on the International pitch he doesn't look fit enough for the game, where as Faletau, Denton, Heaslip all do and always have.

Australia will be seriously tough on fitness. We need athletes in the backrow that can go the distance. Morgan has worked hard on his fitness since his emergence on the scene, but it is not as good as others. He is a player of huge potential and has been fantastic for the Scarlets and a revelation for England.

by sugarNspikes Wed 04 Apr 2012, 10:06 pm

maestegmafia, I agree to an extent about horses for courses ie play the right game against Australia with the correct players. One of the reasons I wouldn't play Phillips at 9 against Aus as we need quick ball.

Fitness may be an issue, but remember the Lions tour is a fair way in the future. Morgan's fitness is improving and will continue to improve when he comes to the Aviva Premier. It's easier to improve fitness than basic skills.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 04 Apr 2012, 10:20 pm

Fitness is a pretty small barrier to overcome though. With hard work and dedication (which I'm sure Morgan will show) it does not take long to get it sorted. In all honesty, I think Morgan could be superior to Faletau, as an 8 anyway. As I said earlier, he has pace and agility that he shouldn't have, at his size. Plus he has good hands. I have been surprised by what I have seen by him so far. I think he has a lot of potential.

Faletau this 6 nations falls behind Denton, Morgan and Parisse for me. Though he is a great defensive 8.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed 04 Apr 2012, 10:25 pm

slartibartfast wrote:So you'd leave out a world cup semi finalist and grandslam winner for Denton and Morgan?

Crazy

Always wanted Morgan to play for Wales as cover for Toby.

I can picture Toby tackling his heart out for 50 mins then Morgan coming on - that's the last thing you'd want as a defending team.

So I guess with your logic, that makes Heaslip the best regardless of form? After all, he is a grand slam winner, a lions player and HEC winner. See how silly that argument is? Parisse isn't one of the best 8s in the world because of his medals and achievements with Italy.

by maestegmafia Wed 04 Apr 2012, 10:30 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
slartibartfast wrote:So you'd leave out a world cup semi finalist and grandslam winner for Denton and Morgan?

Crazy

Always wanted Morgan to play for Wales as cover for Toby.

I can picture Toby tackling his heart out for 50 mins then Morgan coming on - that's the last thing you'd want as a defending team.

So I guess with your logic, that makes Heaslip the best regardless of form? After all, he is a grand slam winner, a lions player and HEC winner. See how silly that argument is? Parisse isn't one of the best 8s in the world because of his medals and achievements with Italy.

I think Heaslip is the best Eight available, Faletau is close behind, due to lack of experience, not natural skill.

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