Number 8 Choices of the Home Nations

First topic message reminder :

Lets look at who the board rate as the best Number 8s possible suggestions for the Lions next year.

Pick two Number 8s from the Poll below.

If a player cannot last 80 minutes he is a liability.
Even Heaslip manages to do this despite his loss of form.
Morgan will be a useful player when he gets fit.He is still a work in progress.
Toby has vast experience crammed into his tender years.He was more than tidy at the WC and was not too shabby in the victorious 6N's side.These cannot be ignored,surely people are not that one-eyed??

sugarNspikes wrote:maestegmafia, I agree to an extent about horses for courses ie play the right game against Australia with the correct players. One of the reasons I wouldn't play Phillips at 9 against Aus as we need quick ball.

Fitness may be an issue, but remember the Lions tour is a fair way in the future. Morgan's fitness is improving and will continue to improve when he comes to the Aviva Premier. It's easier to improve fitness than basic skills.

I think you can get away with a lack of fitness in the backrow in the AP. Look at guys like Easter who don't struggle at all in the AP. I think the more athletic rugby played at Scarlets and a tough physical program from the RFU would get him to a decent level faster.

He has had a great time in Wales, it will be a shame to see him go. Reminds us all of Scott Quinnell, who also struggled with fitness.

If a player cannot last 80 minutes he is a liability.
Even Heaslip manages to do this despite his loss of form.
Morgan will be a useful player when he gets fit.He is still a work in progress.
Toby has vast experience crammed into his tender years.He was more than tidy at the WC and was not too shabby in the victorious 6N's side.These cannot be ignored,surely people are not that one-eyed??

"Not too shabby" isn't as good as the two MOTM 8s in the 6 nations. Denton and Morgan I think are the top runners, and deservedly so. As for Heaslip, how can anyone say he is the best option with his current form? He is behind all of the current options, with the exception of Dowson. As for Morgan's fitness, he will have it sorted in no time. It won't be a liability.

Rory selection should not be based on the assumption that a player will get fitter or that they may become better players in the future that's just guesswork.

Hardly guesswork, do you really think his fitness won't have improved in 12 months? He won a MOTM regardless of any fitness issues, so I don't see how he is a liability? Isn't it guesswork to assume he is going to be unfit for the Lions? Goes both ways..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"Not too shabby" isn't as good as the two MOTM 8s in the 6 nations. Denton and Morgan I think are the top runners, and deservedly so. As for Heaslip, how can anyone say he is the best option with his current form? He is behind all of the current options, with the exception of Dowson. As for Morgan's fitness, he will have it sorted in no time. It won't be a liability.

So because a player is part of a very good side and others get picked as MoM he is less of a player than one in a lesser team who stands out?Get real.

Why is he not fit now ? there is no reason why he should not be as fit as any other 8 on the list.
There is a possibility that he is one of those players that will always struggle with fitness.
The Scarlets are one of the fittest sides going so there is no reason why he should not be at his peak but there again maybe he is.

Based on the Six nations and the world cup, Toby should be first choice imo with Denton second choice. I think someone like Denton coming on will scare the bejebbies out of the Aussies, especially after having Toby playing for 60 mins or so. Morgan has potential but he has a long way to go before he's considered for the Lions.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"Not too shabby" isn't as good as the two MOTM 8s in the 6 nations. Denton and Morgan I think are the top runners, and deservedly so. As for Heaslip, how can anyone say he is the best option with his current form? He is behind all of the current options, with the exception of Dowson. As for Morgan's fitness, he will have it sorted in no time. It won't be a liability.

So because a player is part of a very good side and others get picked as MoM he is less of a player than one in a lesser team who stands out?Get real.

Get real?

You just seem a bit bummed that Morgan is currently playing better than Faletau, and Morgan chose England. I thought you had me on ignore btw? Keep it that way, you get grumpy every time you read my posts. Otherwise, learn how to grow a thick skin.

Cymroglan wrote:Why is he not fit now ? there is no reason why he should not be as fit as any other 8 on the list.
There is a possibility that he is one of those players that will always struggle with fitness.
The Scarlets are one of the fittest sides going so there is no reason why he should not be at his peak but there again maybe he is.

This was his first exposure to international rugby. His lack of fitness is being heavily exaggerated here anyway. The players that always struggle with fitness, care to give me any examples? The ones I can think of, are the ones who are also lazy.

Also, when Roberts returns from injury, and Warburton, their fitness levels will be behind Morgan's obviously.. he will be training heavily, while the other two are recovering from their injuries. If Morgan will apparently not be fit enough, how will they?

It is not that hard to get fit for rugby, these are professionals and will be trained as such.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"Not too shabby" isn't as good as the two MOTM 8s in the 6 nations. Denton and Morgan I think are the top runners, and deservedly so. As for Heaslip, how can anyone say he is the best option with his current form? He is behind all of the current options, with the exception of Dowson. As for Morgan's fitness, he will have it sorted in no time. It won't be a liability.

So because a player is part of a very good side and others get picked as MoM he is less of a player than one in a lesser team who stands out?Get real.

Get real?

You just seem a bit bummed that Morgan is currently playing better than Faletau, and Morgan chose England. I thought you had me on ignore btw? Keep it that way, you get grumpy every time you read my posts. Otherwise, learn how to grow a thick skin.

Well the stats show and many people's eyes would agree that Faletau is performing better than Morgan atm. Morgan looked good coming on, but Toby was incredible in defence and his ball carrying was only matched by Denton I believe.

A No8 cant go missing during Internationals they have to have a 80 min match in them.

Faletau started every game for Wales, unlike Morgan. Morgan's stats in defence are not great, but very good in attack. Plus I was told off for posting Lydiate's tackle stats, as they are not as good as the likes of Dusautoir or Ferris, and people told me that it isn't the amount of tackles, but the quality. Well that applies to Faletau's carrying too. I think he beat a few defenders, but didn't have the same impact in attack as Morgan or Denton.

Cymroglan wrote:A No8 cant go missing during Internationals they have to have a 80 min match in them.

Well then Morgan must have been fit enough, as he won MOTM and put in some very good displays overall this 6 nations.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Taffineastbourne wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"Not too shabby" isn't as good as the two MOTM 8s in the 6 nations. Denton and Morgan I think are the top runners, and deservedly so. As for Heaslip, how can anyone say he is the best option with his current form? He is behind all of the current options, with the exception of Dowson. As for Morgan's fitness, he will have it sorted in no time. It won't be a liability.

So because a player is part of a very good side and others get picked as MoM he is less of a player than one in a lesser team who stands out?Get real.

Get real?

You just seem a bit bummed that Morgan is currently playing better than Faletau, and Morgan chose England. I thought you had me on ignore btw? Keep it that way, you get grumpy every time you read my posts. Otherwise, learn how to grow a thick skin.

Just checking on your rate of maturity.You seemed to have an irrational anti-Welsh thing going on and I was just checking whether it is still ongoing.When it goes I will take you off my ignore list.Chin up.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Faletau started every game for Wales, unlike Morgan. Morgan's stats in defence are not great, but very good in attack. Plus I was told off for posting Lydiate's tackle stats, as they are not as good as the likes of Dusautoir or Ferris, and people told me that it isn't the amount of tackles, but the quality. Well that applies to Faletau's carrying too. I think he beat a few defenders, but didn't have the same impact in attack as Morgan or Denton.

That's fair enough mate. I just feel all round Faletau did more than Morgan, where as Morgan made a few eye catching breaks, Faletau was doing it on a regular basis, maybe not running 50m, but gaining decent yards anyway. I get your point on Lydiate, but Wales were having allot of possession, meaning Lydiate wasn't tackling as much maybe as he was at the wc. Ferris is a great player, so unlucky on the last Lions tour when he got injured, SA would have struggled against him.

Yes he had some decent games and fully deserved his MOTM award and I wish him well in the Lions selection.

Yes, it is an irrational anti-welsh vendetta, that must be the only reason I rate Morgan higher than Faletau at number 8, based on current form.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, it is an irrational anti-welsh vendetta, that must be the only reason I rate Morgan higher than Faletau at number 8, based on current form.

I value your opinion but being a huge Lion's I'm glad you are not a selector

That is fair enough Cymroglan, we have differing opinions. The anti-welsh thing is unfair though, as on other threads I have been bigging up Davies to be potentially the best centre in the world, but of course some people can't take a bit of criticism.

Cymroglan wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yes, it is an irrational anti-welsh vendetta, that must be the only reason I rate Morgan higher than Faletau at number 8, based on current form.

I value your opinion but being a huge Lion's I'm glad you are not a selector

Cymro,Rory doesnt rate Toby nor Lydiate.Lord knows how we have done so well with these two in our side!

Please can you point out where I have ever said that I don't rate either Lydiate or Faletau?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"Not too shabby" isn't as good as the two MOTM 8s in the 6 nations.

By going off this logic Lydiate must be favourite for the 6 shirt at the moment!

I thought he was to be honest, even if I do disagree. My real point about Faletau compared to Denton/Morgan, is that I think overall in the 6 nations he was not as good. He still did have a good 6 nations, but the other two played better, IMO.

Here Taff, still awaiting your response with regards to me not rating Faletau or Lydiate. Or are you realising you won't be able to come up with any proof? I have plenty of proof that says the opposite

[quote="maestegmafia"]

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

slartibartfast wrote:So you'd leave out a world cup semi finalist and grandslam winner for Denton and Morgan?

Crazy

Always wanted Morgan to play for Wales as cover for Toby.

I can picture Toby tackling his heart out for 50 mins then Morgan coming on - that's the last thing you'd want as a defending team.

So I guess with your logic, that makes Heaslip the best regardless of form? After all, he is a grand slam winner, a lions player and HEC winner. See how silly that argument is? Parisse isn't one of the best 8s in the world because of his medals and achievements with Italy.

Hey there Maesteg
The reason I said that Toby has "defensive frailities" is firstly compared to his other armoury of direct running and awareness, then his defending is not as good, and secondly IMHO he is not as good a defender as Heaslip, Morgan, Denton. Its not to say he is not 100% brave, and is a poor defender, just comparable to the others he is not as good.

The Bachelor wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Faletua is a great prospect, going forward superb but he deffo has defensive frailities

He made over 70 tackles in the RWC missing 0 (27 vs Samoa, 0 missed according to ESPN) and made 52 and missed 1 this 6N.

To be honest I never really noticed Toby in the other 6Ns games but I am sure he missed a couple against us initially, and against England yomg Farrell went around him before getting absolutely smashed by North. I am sure Parrise walked all over him in the WC semi.

Saying that he deffo is alot better than when I watched him in the 2010 6Ns, and wouldnt be disappointed if he was selected as 8 for the Lions

..Faletau didn't play for Wales during the 2010 6 nations.. or 2011. This was his first 6 nations playing for Wales.

6Ns 2010!!
Apologies bit late in the night............... tired mind and memory could have been the Baa Baas game that Parrise did a number on him.

Saying that I didnt realise he hasn't got that much experience and is doing extremely well for so little game time at international level.

Gentlemen just a reminder that each are allowed his own opinion, attack the post and not the poster.

After the RWC I would have said Faletau is a defenite starter.

In the 6N Ben Morgan and Dave Denton either did more work or appeared to do more work. Hence They would be my picks for the no. 8s of choice from the home nations.

Don't know whats the matter with Heaslip at the moment.

Morgan and Denton - both had better 6 nations than Faletau and Heaslip in my opinion

Got to be Denton for me. I've watched him week in week out for Edinburgh and the guy is an absolute beast with the ball and puts in some good hits too. Plus at 6ft 5 he's a pretty good lineout option. I think you'd need a well balanced backrow to have him as the starting at 8 for the lions (a chopper at 6 and fetcher at 7) but if you just gave him the task of making yards in attack there's no better 8 in the home nations for me just now.

Faletau had a good world cup and pretty quiet 6N but in my opinion, if all the 8's played to the best of their ability, he wouldn't be in the top 3. He's a good, consistent player but I think you need more than that to be a Lions number 8.

Here's hoping Denton has a barnstorming summer tour and an even better 6N.

I've said it here previously - he reminds me of a young Simon Taylor, which is a massive compliment! Here's hoping his career doesn't take the same injury ravaged route.

RDW, whilst I agree that Denton, and Morgan are fine players, and both have a tremendous amount of talent, i'm not sure I agree that he wouldn't be in the top 3. This is because the best performance i've seen from any one of these players at international level was Tobys against France in the world cup. From a defensive aspect, to an attacking threat, he was literally everywhere on the pitch, and given that Toby is almost a year younger than the other number 8's, he still has a lot of time to grow.

Still, having 4 home union players with little between them is tremendously encouraging from a lions perspective.

jay_welsh wrote:RDW, whilst I agree that Denton, and Morgan are fine players, and both have a tremendous amount of talent, i'm not sure I agree that he wouldn't be in the top 3. This is because the best performance i've seen from any one of these players at international level was Tobys against France in the world cup. From a defensive aspect, to an attacking threat, he was literally everywhere on the pitch, and given that Toby is almost a year younger than the other number 8's, he still has a lot of time to grow.

Still, having 4 home union players with little between them is tremendously encouraging from a lions perspective.

I have said this multiple times.

Whoever the lions pick for the backrow some very very talented players will be left behind.

Pick 6/7 from this lot :

In no particular order

Scotland : Brown, Barclay, Rennie, Denton, Strokosch
Wales : Lydiate, Warburton, Faleteau, Tupiric, Shingler
Ireland : SOB, Heaslip, Ferris
England : Croft, Wood, Robshaw, Morgan

Just from a Scotland perspective I fully expect Rob Harley and Ryan Wilson to be challengeing for a game next year (Cardiff Blues fans who watched the Glasgow game at the weekend will know who they are) likewise Johnnie Beattie is moving to France to try and recapture his mojo. Add McInally to the mix who is arguably a better no.8 than Denton for Edinburgh and thats more players who could be in contention.

Taffineastbourne wrote:If a player cannot last 80 minutes he is a liability.
Even Heaslip manages to do this despite his loss of form.
Morgan will be a useful player when he gets fit.He is still a work in progress.
Toby has vast experience crammed into his tender years.He was more than tidy at the WC and was not too shabby in the victorious 6N's side.These cannot be ignored,surely people are not that one-eyed??

Think Falateu is possibly the most over rated player in the Wales squad. Good but not great. So what if he is part of a winning team. I'd select Heaslip, OBrien or Denton ahead of him.

LB, can you explain why? Not attacking, Im just interested why you'd think that?

I think that other 8s have much more influence on matches that Falateau. I also think that Denton and even an off form Heaslip are better carriers. Denton being more physical and Heaslip more dynamic. There has been a fair bit of hype around him since he broke into the Wales team but I feel that this is more because in the last 10 years the welsh backrow has been an area of weakness for Wales and now it's not. I have made a point of watching him and my observation has been that he is good but still behind the likes of Harinordiquy, Heaslip, Parrise and OBrien. Also from what I've seem of Denton I have been more impressed.

fair enough LB, thanks for explaining

Sam Warburton for me on the otherhand is incredible and worth every bit of hype. Best 7 in the world at the moment or at least up there with Pocock and McCaw. Can't fault him.

I think theres strong players all over the backrow for every country, I mean out of the starting 12 players, at least 4 are going to miss out, thats not even considering players like Brown/Wood/Ryan Jones etc, so I think theres going to be uproar from some fans whoever gets left behind.

Huge pool of talent in the backrow. Half Backs not so good

Comfort wrote:I think theres strong players all over the backrow for every country, I mean out of the starting 12 players, at least 4 are going to miss out, thats not even considering players like Brown/Wood/Ryan Jones etc, so I think theres going to be uproar from some fans whoever gets left behind.

+1 Very true, Comfort, we are spolied for choice

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Comfort wrote:I think theres strong players all over the backrow for every country, I mean out of the starting 12 players, at least 4 are going to miss out, thats not even considering players like Brown/Wood/Ryan Jones etc, so I think theres going to be uproar from some fans whoever gets left behind.

+1 Very true, Comfort, we are spolied for choice

Yup totally agree. There'll be some fantastic backrowers left behind. It will come down to who performs best next season and combinations. Its a massively competitive area.

roddersm wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Comfort wrote:I think theres strong players all over the backrow for every country, I mean out of the starting 12 players, at least 4 are going to miss out, thats not even considering players like Brown/Wood/Ryan Jones etc, so I think theres going to be uproar from some fans whoever gets left behind.

+1 Very true, Comfort, we are spolied for choice

Yup totally agree. There'll be some fantastic backrowers left behind. It will come down to who performs best next season and combinations. Its a massively competitive area.

Agreed but we cant afford to select on reputation/past glories so Heaslip does not make the plane. Sorry.

Agreed thats why I haven't selected Heaslip .

Its next seasons form that counts though

roddersm wrote:Agreed thats why I haven't selected Heaslip .

Its next seasons form that counts though

And there are still a number of backrow players that could get in the mix next season.

For example the Scarlets mcCusker, Turnbull and dragon Lewis Evans haven't played much but are very good players that could well be shining lights next season once recovered from injury. Tom wood of saints is another.

..although i'd say O'Brien and Cry baby can just about get on the plane!

Certainly some very interesting variations arise.

I would be tempted to pick a pack to cloud the sun, cast a shadow over the entire antipodes and to smash the wobblies pack to a pulp (and certainly the irish know how to do that).

Monster pack.....

Sheridan (left field but so what. Deal with it)
Best
Adam Jones
Ritchie Gray
Charteris
O'Brien
Warburton
Morgan

Bench forwards (on a 5-2 split for fun!!) to come on and finish off what is left-

Cole
Ford
Gethin Jenkins
POC
Denton (covering across the back row)

Auxiliary forward -

Mike Philips

scrum dooooooooown

giddy up!!

yeeeeeeehaaaaaaa

Absolutely. It will be the AIs and HEC group form which will decide the squad, with a last post xmas push in the 6N to catch the selecters eye.

Its the same every tour. Its impossible to pick the squad a season out from the tour.

No one has booked themselves on the tour on this seasons form.

roddersm wrote:Absolutely. It will be the AIs and HEC group form which will decide the squad, with a last post xmas push in the 6N to catch the selecters eye.

Its the same every tour. Its impossible to pick the squad a season out from the tour.

No one has booked themselves on the tour on this seasons form.

within reason yes but were not far away now and we should be planning. we should be planning to smithereeeeeeeen those yellows

scrum penalty scrum penalty scrum penalty try scrum yellow card scrum penalty quickly taken try lineout maul try genia tucked under sean o brien's arm and carried bcakward 15 metres before being dumped hard on his azzz....... and repeat

I'd actually put O'Brien at 8. Barring that, unless Heaslip returns to form it would be Denton and Faletau for me.