Bobby Skinstad says "sorry"

First topic message reminder :

For those who didn't watch the match between the Sharks and Chiefs on the weekend, there was an up and under that was chased by Lelia Masaga and Lwazi Mvovo was the reciever, the charge tackle wasn't executed very well and Masaga arrived into the tackle with no arms and their two heads and chests collided in an unpleasant ending where both players were bloodied.

During the commentating Bobby skinstad ex springbok now turned commentator had this comment to make "Lelia Masaga has gone head high in an absolute coconut tackle straight onto Lwazi Mvovo and tried to take his head off,"

When Chief's loose forward Scott Waldrom tweeted: "Does the SA commentator know that the term 'coconut tackle' is actually a derogatory term?"

Skinstad replied: "Heard the term and thought it meant aiming for the 'nut' - no harm meant sorry."

Twitter user@Broncos_NRL tweeted "coconut is a racist term to describe a pacific islander, it's like calling a black man the N word".

You really need to register for a multi cultural course these days to be a public figure as anything you say can be trned against you.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Biltong
I dont want to see or hear this term used again be it on these rugby threads nor in a broadcast from South Africa.

As I said at the top I dont refer to you as a Jarpie,simply because I would never do anything thing that might offend you.

Why? Who is it offending? So far I see a bunch of people who aren't even racially involved in this so called racism whinging about it. Who is it offending? Why would they be offended by such a term? Apparently there is a meaning behind it in SA, which biltongbek hasn't even heard of so dear knows who came up with that one, but why would it be offensive towards the Islanders?

Rory, it is fine, if it is a drogatory term for the Polinesian Culture then we must respect it.

I just think South africans in general should scrutinise what they say, as everything coming out of their mouths are under the microscope.

Hey, don't you know you can say what you like about Welsh people? We are open season, one step up from gingers.

So far the people saying it is a derogatory term for the Polinesian Culture aren't even part of that culture though!

doesn't matter Rory, they are aware that it is, remember the Polinesian culture is part of New Zealand life.

They are protecting their own, just as I am protecting my own.

gingers?

biltongbek wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Biltong I think, because of history, white people in South Africa will just have this negative stereotypical label in some peoples minds. Unfortunate fact of life.

Feckless you are correct and I try not to respond to this, but the problem is we get it over here, we get it from over there, and I am in all honesty downright fedup with it.

I myself at my age of 47 had nothing to do with the old regime. I grew up during apartheid in a single parent household, went to 9 schools whilst growing up as my mother struggled to get by without getting any maintenance from my father, so I didn't even "benefit" from the old regime as many always suspect.

I voted for the first time in 1982 during a referendum asking us about a new political dispensation. I spent 2 years of my life on the Angolan border during my national service doing little to nothing but being messed about and training my guts out for nothing to happen, just a waste of my time.

Now 16 years after the new dispensation our infrastructures are falling apart whilst the government perfcts even more methods of taxing the "firstworld" section of Sa to supposedly benefit the "third world" population of Sa whilst the money dissappears around every corner, and then on top of that I have to listen to this BS

Biltong I sympathize. I'm not exactly dancing with delight over here at how Ireland has been run into the ground by greed and corruption. It had nothing to do with me, but it'll be people like me who pay for it. And my kids probably, if I ever have any. But I try not to let frustration with my nation (hey that rhymes!) get me down. And national stereotypes are bs. Don't worry about it. You'll feel better after witnessing Leinster win the most epic HC semi final of all time. And that's what 606v2 is about isn't it. Rugby.

You recon you guys can win that one?

It is played in france isn't it?

In France. Against the other best team in the tournament. They've been trying to win this tournament for years. We've gotten the better of them in the last two years, winning two at home and losing one away. They've gotten their break with a home semi final draw. It's their centenary year. And they're hungry. They're filled with international stars and are very well drilled.

It's the toughest fixture we could have gotten, but I think both sides knew they'd cross paths eventually, because you have to beat the best to win the tournament. I fear home advantage will swing it for them. But we might have the psychological advantage having won it before. I think it's to tight to call and could envisage either side thrashing the other on a good day. Two class teams. Can't wait.

Well good luck, I see we are getting both semi finals live on Supersport, so I will be cheering you lot on.

I have never heard the phrase and my first thought hearing it in context was to assume it referred to the "head".

Now I know there is a racist meaning I am educated to that fact. I'm quite happy to give Skinstad the benefit of doubt. Several posters on here have also said that the phrase is new to them in a racial context.

As a Chinese Kiwi I can tell you that coconut and tackling used together is indeed considered derogatory my many Pacific Islanders.
If someone uses it without knowing that and then apologises then I think that's fine.
Just because someone doesn't find it derogatory doesn 't make it not derogatory for others. Just because I am not PI doesn't mean I can't be offended on behalf of my friends.

nga
I think whats going on here is that people are not all that informed about New Zealanders whether they be Polynesians or not, hence they dont take us seriously enough,and dont care what they say about us.

I doubt it very much that a South African,an Irishman or a Welshman would refer to a black man as a spook or golliwog or even the N word.

Polynesians have played a far bigger role in International rugby in only the last 20 or 30 years,and will be be more prominant over the next few years,as more countries have Polynesians in their teams and competitions,now is probably as good time as any for more people to make themselves more aware.

I'm from South Africa and I never heard the term before. I don't think he meant any harm. Bob keeps using terms that other commentators don't use and which I frankly get irritated about (probably because he thinks he sounds smarter that way).

I qualify (don't ask) as a black South African (last time I tried to post my race on 606 I got a derogatory message warning) and as far as I can remember no-one has ever had a problem with Bobby (and over here we are very sensitive over stuff like this). I think Bobby just used a phrase thinking he would sound smart without knowing the meaning and it came back to bite him.

And the South African cocunut derogatory term, Bob didn't use it in any way to be linked to that term. As Biltong said, he wasn't even of the South African term. Only the younger generation uses the term, and with Biltong being close to ancient I can see why he hasn't come across this term before.

Gee thanks fern, I am a spritely 30 year old in the body of an ancient. They even used me in "The Mummy"

aucklandlaurie wrote: nga
I think whats going on here is that people are not all that informed about New Zealanders whether they be Polynesians or not, hence they dont take us seriously enough,and dont care what they say about us.

Laurie that is simply untrue. The posters I communicate with most about rugby and have the greatest respect for are the New Zealanders (even though I am getting tired of losing to them) as far as not being informed about Polynesian culture, I am also not informed by any of the asian cultures or indian cultures.

Unless you study those cultures you pick it up as you go along.

biltongbek wrote:gingers?

People with red hair, see through skin, freckles and piggy eyes, you must have them in SA, no?

Yeah, we have a few running around. Nice people.

The gift of the Irish to the world.

Full Credit wrote:I haven't heard the term used before but having now heard it I can see how it would be construed as derogatory, in any case it's clearly not complimentary. Skinstad has obviously heard the term and thought it was worth repeating. That said, he has apologised so we can give him the benefit of the doubt and move on.

I generally find the SA commentators pretty fair but in this particular game they seemed a bit one-eyed. Case in point was this particular tackle where they just kept banging on about 'no arms in the tackle' when anyone with one good eye could see he did attempt to use arms but was knocked out before he could rap them around. Maybe they got caught up in the boos from the crowd and forgot to think for themselves.

How the feic can you see that as derogatory.

FFS get a life.

And who are you to give him the benefit of the doubt when he obviously didn't mean it that way????

Jesus Christ

Glas a du wrote:Hey, don't you know you can say what you like about Welsh people? We are open season, one step up from gingers.

No I think your still on the bottom step But these days you can't say anything without someone getting offended or worse getting offended for someone else on there behalf.

Thanks for the suggestion pal, I'll get on with my new life once I waste a few more minutes of this one explaining something to you that shouldn't need explaining.

As other people have said, the term has been used before and caused a stir back then, nothing has changed in that regard. Secondly, of all the slang terms that could be used to describe someones head... melon, scon, dome, etc why choose coconut? Coconuts are associated with warm, tropical islands are they not? It is a subtle way of associating a dangerous style of play with a group of people.

In the context of the game the crowd were baying for blood for a perceived injustice. The commentators were blind to the fact that it was a legitimate tackle that went wrong and perhaps he was caught up in the moment. Did Skinstad really think that Masanga went in with the intention of stopping him with his head? Is that even a thing?

Here in Australia, like NZ, we have many Polynesians and perhaps are just more attuned to this. I'm sure you could come up with umpteen derogatory slurs towards your neighbours that we've never heard of here. I don't know what was going on in Skinstad's head at the time which why I said we shouldn't make a big deal of this. You, on the other hand, seem to know exactly what he was thinking and what he meant.

Besides, I didn't say he meant it, I didn't say I was offended by it, I didn't say all South Africans are racist, all I said was I could see how it could be perceived as derogatory.

I think this type of stuff gets out of hand way too quickly.

I remember the Andy Capsta....whatsisname bloke being chastened big time in NZ. I don’t recall it being in 1997, I thought it was the 1995 WC QF where Chester Williams scored 4 tries but the Saffa’s (derogatory?) came in for some massive hits, not all legal. He came on the Holmes show and apologised. Fair enough, job done, 1 Sth African informed.

Now we have another situation where the coconut word is used again by a Sth African commentator and the overly PC NZ press have jumped on him for an apology. He’s done it and we should move on. Why should we expect someone who has not lived in NZ to know that it is a derogatory term? Should we expect 6 billion other people to know that it is derogatory in NZ?

No damage done, Skinstad ain’t a racist and that’s that

Jeez gents. It is very hard to know what someone is thinking. And when we get into race it becomes more complicated and more sensitive. Before reading this thread I hadn't heard that term used in any negative way, not at home in UK nor in the US where I am living now. In fact, the word 'coconut' is commonly used in the US as a cute expression for someone's head, usually when talking to a kid. No racial connotation whatsoever.

Just goes to show that expressions which are OK in one area may not be in another. And for us here on 606, talking about a global game in a global forum, I think all we can do is learn, be more aware in the future and get on with things.

And for Skinstad, I think it is fair to assume he meant nothing bad by the comment. I suppose we really don't know, but I am unaware of him making any other negative racial comments previously.

doctor_grey wrote:Just goes to show that expressions which are OK in one area may not be in another. And for us here on 606, talking about a global game in a global forum, I think all we can do is learn, be more aware in the future and get on with things.

It’s a bit like the HSBC ads which showed how a thumbs up is a universal sign of positive acknowledgement.....except in Brazil!

Glas a du wrote:Hey, don't you know you can say what you like about Welsh people? We are open season, one step up from gingers.

Fancy arsed Welsh.

It's one of my ambitions to meet a ginger Maori. I understand they arise from Irish priests taking their position as missionaries a bit to literally.

Glas a du wrote:It's one of my ambitions to meet a ginger Maori. I understand they arise from Irish priests taking their position as missionaries a bit to literally.

Paul Tito!

Glas a du wrote:It's one of my ambitions to meet a ginger Maori. I understand they arise from Irish priests taking their position as missionaries a bit to literally.

I know loads and it isn't as rare as you think. As for this Irish priest thingee...it's probably more to do with the Scottish!

Firstly, I think this has been handled well by the various parties concerned. I actually enjoy Skinstad´s commentary and think he´s a funny guy. I remember when SBW offloaded to Fruean and Skinstad made a reference to Puff Divvy saying how SBW didn´t know how to play the game and kids got the wrong idea from him. I´ll dig out the video later.

When it was pointed out to him that coconut is an offensive term for someone from the Pacific Islands, Skinstad did the right thing and apologised. I don´t know what Skinstad was thinking when he mentioned the term but I wouldn't be surprised if he thought coconut meant the head rather than the person who made the tackle.

People who don´t think coconut is offensive are missing the point. Let me give another example. The Aussie cricket commentators often call the Pakistani team Pakis. This is because often Australian people are incapable of pronouncing a multi-syllabic word, let alone one which doesn't end in a vowel. So I have heard petrol being called petty, a tennis ball tenno and God help you if you move to Australia and your name is Octavian. You will be called Octo or Octy. Now don´t get me wrong, that is only in jest. But the person of Asian descent example is a true one. Now the Aussies mean no harm by it. They like to shorten names and put vowels on them. But should they use the term if it could cause offence to the Pakistani team or Pakistani people around the world? Sadly, in this day and age, I think it should be stopped because information is so easily accessed around the world now and people could take it the wrong way.

Let me provide another example. Imagine Phil Kearns hypothetically called the Irish tactic of keeping the player on his feet and wrapping up the ball a Mick tackle. Mick because he might have heard that that´s a name for the Irish and because it´s a tactic that the Irish readily use. Now someone might get upset in Ireland about that comment and an Irish paper picks up the story and hey presto we have a comment that erupts into verbal warfare between the two nations. Phil Kearns hypothetically defends himself saying Mick means nothing in Oz. G´Day I´m Mick Dundee from Australia. What´s the fuss about.

Now I can understand why people think coconut is a very nice fruit and a harmless word to use to describe a Pacific Islander as many coconuts grow in the South Pacific. But it is a negatively charged word that has a loaded meaning. To not pick on my cousins, I can tell you the word has expressed its ugly head on talkback in NZ to describe the Blues and their many Polynesian players. e.g. Those useless coconuts are such lazy trainers.

So from Skinstad´s point of view, I think being alerted to the fact that he used an offensive term (I also don´t view Polynesian players as more susceptible to making high tackles than any other nation just because of a few high profile cases. We shouldn´t call it a Biltong headbutt or eye gouge for the same reason!) and making the apology was the right move and no more should be said about it. But people getting in a tiff denying that a word like coconut is completely inoffensive to them ignores the fact that some people do see it as a form of abuse and out of respect for them we shouldn't use it. I don´t see this as political correctness gone mad. I just see it as a sign that we all live in a global village but not all of us are the same or speak in the same way.

Well said Kia.

Isn't this similar to the baboon thing in the Leinster v Saints warm up? Leinster were using the SA word for baboon as a scrum call and Mujati took offence as it is a relatively commonly used racial slur (apparantly). Now I doubt very much that the Leinster players knew this or did it deliberately (not sure about the two SA but I don't know how common the term is).

After that we were all educated that if you shout the South African word for baboon around a black Southern African person they might find it offensive.

Another example would be the car(?) advertising billboards that contain the phase 'eany meany miney mo' (sp?). They were removed after complaints and there was some uproar about political correctness. After all we used it when I was a kid 'catch a tigger by his toe' as a choosing song. What I didn't realise was that is the counting song use to select the black person the mob were going in lynch. If I associated the phrase with that situation and saw it plastered across billboard I think I'd get a bit upset and offended as well.

Yes, well said. Our commentators wouldn't still refers to Pakistanis that way any more, surely. In years gone by, maybe, but I can't imagine they would even think to say that these days.

Haven´t heard cricket commentary in ages sadly mate but wouldn't have thought so. Just an example where something harmless could be taken the wrong way.

That said, I´m fine with the term choker being used against the ABs. I´t's not an offensive term to describe NZers. It's a term motivated by envy.

Yeah so is Thug. They wish they had their own tough guys.

You're not missing much there, half the time Tony Greig just bangs on about his home in Bondi. God forbid anyone hands the mike to Warnie whereupon he blurts out whatever's in his head at the time, then proceeds to say the same thing again over and over with the word order rearranged.

He should stick to spray tan and the Liz hurley.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Haven´t heard cricket commentary in ages sadly mate but wouldn't have thought so. Just an example where something harmless could be taken the wrong way.

That said, I´m fine with the term choker being used against the ABs. I´t's not an offensive term to describe NZers. It's a term motivated by envy.

Hey, arent the Irish team being called that, for slightly other reasons?

Yeah, hats off to Warnie for punching well above his weight there but I think I speak for all Australians when I say that I want the old Warnie back. The fattish, yobbo, larrakin, not the diet-shake drinking, teeth-whitened apparition we see these days.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:http://www.superxv.com/news/super15_rugby_news.asp?id=34868

"However the term coconut is now used in South Africa as a derogatory insult against someone who is described as having lost their heritage as they appear to be black on the outside and white on the inside similar to a coconut."

I've never even heard the phrase until today. I find it ridiculous that people are getting so wound up about it.

The term coconut in can used in that way in England too.

The commentator has apologised for using the term and said he didn't realise the meaning of it and that should be the end of it. Okay he was silly to use a term that he did not know the meaning of but that is it. If he was to use the term again then they're would be a problem.

I can't for the life of me believe that Skinstad would knowingly, deliberately use a racially derogetory word on air! Perhaps he should have been aware of the connotations of the word before he used it, but that is a different point: That makes him possibly a bit foolish, but not racist.

As to whether the phrase is actually offensive: that has to do with what history it carries with it in the mind of the described person. Any word can be offensive, regardless of literal meaning, if it as a history of being used in conjunction with oppression and descrimination.

I'll bet he says it again now that it's been highlighted. He'll overthink it every time he goes to say something on air and will inevitably blurt it out.
I was at my brother in laws wedding to his 2nd wife recently and she is the spitting image of mk1. Of course the best man was being wound up for months in advance about his speech and warned not to get Linda (mk1) and Lorraine (mk2) mixed up in the speeches.
You could actually feel the tension as he got up to say his bit and of course got it horribly wrong. I didn't know it was possible for a person to turn so dark a shade of purple.

We are running out of words here that aren't offensive to anyone.. it is getting ridiculous.

Biltong can never be offensive, it can only be delicious

Tell me about it, I've got a cupboard full of the stuff.

You like it?

Is it under your top ten all time favourite snacks?

Delicious, but it gets a bit too fleshy after a bit of chewing. I like the peppered stuff.

You must cut it against the grain then it doesn't become chewy. Nice thin slices with Nando's Perrinaise sauce or some sliced jalapeno's.

Also make sure the guy that makes it uses silverside beef, you cut that in thinnish slices and don't let it dry too much.

biltongbek wrote:You must cut it against the grain then it doesn't become chewy. Nice thin slices with Nando's Perrinaise sauce or some sliced jalapeno's.

That's exactly how my ancestors were eaten by cannibals. As if you didn't know that.