Shingler tied to Wales

First topic message reminder :

So the Steven Shingler fiasco has finally drawn to a close it has been announced that IRB have rejected SRU and Shingler's appeal against being tied to wales.

The IRB state as Shingler played for Wales u20's against France u20's when both countries had them registered as their 'A' side then Shingler is tied to Wales.

I personally think the right decision has been made. For those of you who think that he was too young to choose a nation to play for by the age of 18 you are a legal adult who can vote, drink, get married, sign contracts among a whole list of things. Most 18 year old adults have to make decisions on their futures in terms of work or education and this is no different.

WRU have definitely done nothing wrong. They've burned in the passed playing guys they had thought were fully qualified. Their duty bound to highlight issues if they become aware of them. So have Scotland so you'd think they'd appreciate the heads up more.

Even if the IRB change the rules for the future they've already said they won't be applied retrospectively so that's it done now. Unless the SRU get all 'European Court' on it and who bloody knows where it'll end.

What would the European Court be able to do?

What a load of bollix.

If the WRU had a piece of paper with Shingler's moniker on it saying something along the lines of "I want to commit my future to Wales and I understand, that by representing Wales U20's, I am hereby through agreeing to play for Wales U20, making myself ineligible for any other national representative team... etc. etc. " it would be over.

I can only assume that they don't.

Which is why the WRU statement merely refers to the fact that they were in accordance with the IRB rules, and that this IRB ruling committee has stated that the WRU are in accordance with the IRB rules.

Essentially the WRU have done nothing wrong and this IRB ruling committee do not have the remit to make Shingler elligible to play for Scotland.

But that does not mean that the IRB has it's house in order, which is why there is an option for this matter to be elevated above this ruling committee and up to the full IRB Council for ratification, I would say it's fairly obvious that this one is going "upstairs".

The crux of the matter is whether or not the full IRB council has enough checks and balances in place to ensure that they have not broken any national or international Laws with regard to their own "eligibility" rulings.

Two things are clear here:

1. The WRU has complied with the IRB requirements and has done nothing wrong.

2. There is no written contract between the WRU and Shingler with regard to his eligibility status.

I think the IRB have flubbed this up and will end up making changes to their eligibility requirements, which will include the requirement for a player to sign a contract in one form or another.

Oh, I also think Shingler Jr. will end up representing Scotland.

maestegmafia wrote:What would the European Court be able to do?

P for plenty Maesteg, ultimately any contractual obligation can be taken, under dispute, to an applicable Court of Law for arbitration purposes, as this argument exists entirely within the remit of European Law, ultimately they can overrule the IRB if they deem that the IRB have not done enough in terms of the minimum legal requirements as laid down by the European Court. The IRB don't run the Law in Europe, that's done from "the Hague".

Bosman, anyone?

His club was entirely within the rules of their governing body, but their governing body were not within the minimum legal requirements of contractual law in Europe, sure it took time and it changed that particular game and the use of contracts within it.

The way I see it, is that if we can't kick a terrorist out of our own country until "Europe" says we can, this small matter only has to be brought before them and they'll relish the opportunity of sticking the proverbial boot in.

Does anyone think any individual or any organisation involved comes away from this looking good? To me, even if one side or another is right, everyone seems to have mishandled this a bit.

And what about the kid? Would he ever want to play for Wales after all this? And would Wales want him? Would Welsh fans want him? No one wins.

I don't see what the WRU have done wrong Doc. or the SRFU for that matter, I think it just shows that the IRB haven't got their house in order on this one.

This will be either another Nacewa or another Bosman depending on what Shingler decides to do next.

I would love to see Stephen Shingler play for Wales if he's good enough. He has played well for Irish and I would like to see a footballing inside centre for Wales, or at least within the set up.

But he is fifth or sixth choice at flyhalf and centre and fourth as a fullback. Which is the mainreason he was trying to play for Scotland, he would likely have been a first choice player.

His agent was mentioned before as the person most likely to have instigated this and that sounds likely to me.

Do you reckon Rhys Llewellyn knows he's tied to the All Blacks now?

HammerofThunor wrote:Do you reckon Rhys Llewellyn knows he's tied to the All Blacks now?

Is he tied though or have you just made that up?

Well Maesteg made the point earlier that all sides that don't have an A side use the U20 as the second side. He played against Wales last year so that should tie him to Wales....shouldn't it? There doesn't seem to be a list available for unions' second sides but the Junior All Blacks haven't existed for a while.

The only possibility (that I can see) for him still being available is that I've read (somewhere) you have to defined your second team for a 4 year block. IF that's true the All Blacks may have nominated the JAB in 2007 and then dropped them soon after. So the JAB would have still been the second team even though they didn't exist (or at least get any games).

If NZ where using the U20's as their nominated 2nd team then he is obviously tied to them if not he still isnt tied to anybody.

If he is tied then he made his own decision to do so and he will have to work hard to represent the country of his choice and i wish him luck with that.

Taffineastbourne wrote:They have tried Oz and Kiwiland and not faired too well.Perhaps if they went for a few more Scots they may surprise themselves.It worked ok in the past!
Back to Shingler,it has been done to death & what the WRU are meant to have done wrong has never been spotlighted.RR seeks to vilify them and Lord knows they have there faults.On this one they seem pretty water-tight but still RR has a pop.Perhaps he needs to look closer to home if he is a genuine Scot.

Taff, if you read what Radge said, he clarified that he felt a number of parties had not covered themselves in glory - SRU, IRB and WRU - so pls, enough of your dramatics

Taffineastbourne wrote:I suspect RR is an English wind-up merchant just stirring things.Anyone rational would see precisely what has gone on and see where the blame/fault lies.
To blame the WRU is risable.
Shingler and the SRU have got what they deserved.
If Shingler plays well enough ,I hope he gets a Welsh cap if he deserves it.

This is great stuff, clearly I am an English sleeper agent who has been undercover for the 6 or so years I have been posting on 606 and 606v2 and now have come alive to antagonize Welsh posters.....

My Dad is Welsh too and they are firmly my 2nd team in terms of who I support. I know if I were in Shinglers position I would be equally proud of representing either Scotland or Wales. I was born and bred in Scotland and I would have loved to have been good enough to play for Scotland but if Wales had come calling and Scotland hadn't, I would have played for Wales.

As I said, there are multiple parties to blame here as I have always said, but it seems to be the WRU who have put up all the blocks in this one for no reason.

The crux of my argument is Wales don't even seem to want him, hence why fight so hard to keep him?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My Dad is Welsh too and they are firmly my 2nd team in terms of who I support. I know if I were in Shinglers position I would be equally proud of representing either Scotland or Wales. I was born and bred in Scotland and I would have loved to have been good enough to play for Scotland but if Wales had come calling and Scotland hadn't, I would have played for Wales.

You would really take to the feild for a nation that you felt less affinitey to because it would mean playing international rugby, even if it meant playing aginst your own national side every season? I guess at least your honest about it, but I really hope that your in the minority with that opinion.

International rugby is international Rugby, I support Scotland with Wales as my 2nd team, I have never denied it. I want Wales to win whenever they play anyone else other than Scotland..... it's not a question of affinity IMO. Its your career, your job and the way you make money.

Shingler wanted to play for Wales, as he should do (as I would have done with Scotland) but when it was clear he was not part of their plans and Scotland came calling, he decided to play for them. Had I been in his position and the roles reversed I would have played for Wales if they asked.

I personally don't see what the big deal is. I can honestly say I would have done the same.

Make your mum proud by wearing Navy blue or your dad proud by Wearing Scarlet, whats the differance?

Radge the problem is that this is not village or county rugby, it is international rugby. It should be about putting your body on the line for your nation. It should be about knowing that your standing with your kin on a battle feild and that no matter what happens your fighting for your people. It shouldn't be about making the most of your chances to get to play in front of a big crowd, and to say to your mates when you retire 'I was an itnernational'.

I guess it just comes down to how you personally feel about your own national identity etc, and it guess its one of those that people will never see eye-to-eye on, the same as residency/partent/grandparent rulings.

I think my point just isn't getting through.

Take it from someone who could have been in the same position as Shingler, playing for either Scotland or Wales would be a massive honour.

I would rather play for Scotland as Shingler would have rather played for Wales, sometimes you don't always have the luxuary of a choice though.

As I said, for me massive honour for playing for either. I can only assume it was the same for him.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My Dad is Welsh too and they are firmly my 2nd team in terms of who I support. I know if I were in Shinglers position I would be equally proud of representing either Scotland or Wales. I was born and bred in Scotland and I would have loved to have been good enough to play for Scotland but if Wales had come calling and Scotland hadn't, I would have played for Wales.

You would really take to the feild for a nation that you felt less affinitey to because it would mean playing international rugby, even if it meant playing aginst your own national side every season? I guess at least your honest about it, but I really hope that your in the minority with that opinion.

Spidey, I suspect that the minority are those like Radge and Shingler with parents that qualify them for more than one country, but i would imagine that is changing fast and soon it will be the norm

It seems, and this is only an observation based on a few posters on here, that a lot of Welsh posters cannot understand the idea of having allegancies to multiple countries. They're not alone of course but the majority of their posters seem to hold this view. Kiwi's often have a different view, especially those with ties to the other pacific islands. The English also seem more accepting of it (although certainly nothing like all of us).

I'm not saying either one is 'right' (there is no 'right' in this case).

Is Portnoy reading this? I see a poll coming on.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My Dad is Welsh too and they are firmly my 2nd team in terms of who I support. I know if I were in Shinglers position I would be equally proud of representing either Scotland or Wales. I was born and bred in Scotland and I would have loved to have been good enough to play for Scotland but if Wales had come calling and Scotland hadn't, I would have played for Wales.

You would really take to the feild for a nation that you felt less affinitey to because it would mean playing international rugby, even if it meant playing aginst your own national side every season? I guess at least your honest about it, but I really hope that your in the minority with that opinion.

Spidey, I suspect that the minority are those like Radge and Shingler with parents that qualify them for more than one country, but i would imagine that is changing fast and soon it will be the norm

I didn't mean mixed families, I meant i hope he is in the minority of people who are willing to chose your second team beacause your not good enough for the first team. I was born in england, english mam, welsh dad, irish nan. I would never want to take to the feild for anyone but wales. However I do like to watch the irish, and at times the english, and wish them the best as due to the family links.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My Dad is Welsh too and they are firmly my 2nd team in terms of who I support. I know if I were in Shinglers position I would be equally proud of representing either Scotland or Wales. I was born and bred in Scotland and I would have loved to have been good enough to play for Scotland but if Wales had come calling and Scotland hadn't, I would have played for Wales.

You would really take to the feild for a nation that you felt less affinitey to because it would mean playing international rugby, even if it meant playing aginst your own national side every season? I guess at least your honest about it, but I really hope that your in the minority with that opinion.

Spidey, I suspect that the minority are those like Radge and Shingler with parents that qualify them for more than one country, but i would imagine that is changing fast and soon it will be the norm

I didn't mean mixed families, I meant i hope he is in the minority of people who are willing to chose your second team beacause your not good enough for the first team. I was born in england, english mam, welsh dad, irish nan. I would never want to take to the feild for anyone but wales. However I do like to watch the irish, and at times the english, and wish them the best as due to the family links.

I think it's difficult to generalise on that one - to some the opportunity of playing the game they love at the highest level of which they are capable is the most important thing - who is to say they are wrong? I personally hope that my children (half'n'halfs) will feel like you, but i will support them completely if they feel like Shingler or Radge

HammerofThunor wrote:It seems, and this is only an observation based on a few posters on here, that a lot of Welsh posters cannot understand the idea of having allegancies to multiple countries. They're not alone of course but the majority of their posters seem to hold this view. Kiwi's often have a different view, especially those with ties to the other pacific islands. The English also seem more accepting of it (although certainly nothing like all of us).

I'm not saying either one is 'right' (there is no 'right' in this case).

Is Portnoy reading this? I see a poll coming on.

Oh jeebus, Thunor, pls no - there's no room for another bee in the man's bonnet!

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My Dad is Welsh too and they are firmly my 2nd team in terms of who I support. I know if I were in Shinglers position I would be equally proud of representing either Scotland or Wales. I was born and bred in Scotland and I would have loved to have been good enough to play for Scotland but if Wales had come calling and Scotland hadn't, I would have played for Wales.

You would really take to the feild for a nation that you felt less affinitey to because it would mean playing international rugby, even if it meant playing aginst your own national side every season? I guess at least your honest about it, but I really hope that your in the minority with that opinion.

Spidey, I suspect that the minority are those like Radge and Shingler with parents that qualify them for more than one country, but i would imagine that is changing fast and soon it will be the norm

I didn't mean mixed families, I meant i hope he is in the minority of people who are willing to chose your second team beacause your not good enough for the first team. I was born in england, english mam, welsh dad, irish nan. I would never want to take to the feild for anyone but wales. However I do like to watch the irish, and at times the english, and wish them the best as due to the family links.

I think it's difficult to generalise on that one - to some the opportunity of playing the game they love at the highest level of which they are capable is the most important thing - who is to say they are wrong? I personally hope that my children (half'n'halfs) will feel like you, but i will support them completely if they feel like Shingler or Radge

They'll be Chiefs for sure As!

Carpe Diem wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:My Dad is Welsh too and they are firmly my 2nd team in terms of who I support. I know if I were in Shinglers position I would be equally proud of representing either Scotland or Wales. I was born and bred in Scotland and I would have loved to have been good enough to play for Scotland but if Wales had come calling and Scotland hadn't, I would have played for Wales.

You would really take to the feild for a nation that you felt less affinitey to because it would mean playing international rugby, even if it meant playing aginst your own national side every season? I guess at least your honest about it, but I really hope that your in the minority with that opinion.

Spidey, I suspect that the minority are those like Radge and Shingler with parents that qualify them for more than one country, but i would imagine that is changing fast and soon it will be the norm

I didn't mean mixed families, I meant i hope he is in the minority of people who are willing to chose your second team beacause your not good enough for the first team. I was born in england, english mam, welsh dad, irish nan. I would never want to take to the feild for anyone but wales. However I do like to watch the irish, and at times the english, and wish them the best as due to the family links.

I think it's difficult to generalise on that one - to some the opportunity of playing the game they love at the highest level of which they are capable is the most important thing - who is to say they are wrong? I personally hope that my children (half'n'halfs) will feel like you, but i will support them completely if they feel like Shingler or Radge

They'll be Chiefs for sure As!

CD, goes without saying

AS - yeah that is one of those things with nationallity, it means so many different things to differnt people. I know passionate welsh men with the prince of wales fethers and 'Ich Dien' tattooed on them, and to them that shows their patriotism, however to me it shows servitude to the English monarchy, and nothing to do with being welsh (if that makes any sence in this arguement). Patrotism and national identity are arguements that will never really end up with people changing their views, i guess the best you can hope for is agreeing to disagree, and accepting each others view points.

It is funny though, allegance to a club/region/province seems to be alot easier to deal with and settle upon.

There is no 'English' monarchy. It's British.

sugarNspikes wrote:There is no 'English' monarchy. It's British.

Well its German and Greek ain't it? Also its nice to see and English person knowing the differnce between English and British. Anyway a different arguement for a different day etc.

The English monachy stopped in 1066. The 'English' monachy stopped in the 17th Century (?) when the Scots took over.

HammerofThunor wrote:The English monachy stopped in 1066. The 'English' monachy stopped in the 17th Century (?) when the Scots took over.

Hey, don't tell them that! They only took over their bit (and most of Westminster in recent years .

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/07/16/steve-shingler-admits-naive-mistake-in-bid-to-play-for-scotland-91466-31405631/

He now wants to break in to the Wales squad

Highlights:

“But in hindsight after watching Wales win the Grand Slam and realising how it all went I had a chance to reflect on it a bit more.

“I was brought up in a Welsh shirt and that’s where I hope to be heading.”

I can see what he means, but i think he has unfortunately the more he says the more he is making me think there was only one bad guy in the whole issue and it was him.

gcBlues wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/07/16/steve-shingler-admits-naive-mistake-in-bid-to-play-for-scotland-91466-31405631/

He now wants to break in to the Wales squad

Highlights:

“But in hindsight after watching Wales win the Grand Slam and realising how it all went I had a chance to reflect on it a bit more.

“I was brought up in a Welsh shirt and that’s where I hope to be heading.”

Where are all the crying Scots now, the ones who dragged this nonsense on for months and months saying BS like "Awww but he really wants to play for Scotland, why aren't the horrible Welsh letting him?" Seems the WRU were right in complying with the IRB rules all along (like we all knew anyway).

Check and mate!

Congrats, morgannwg.

You've won the internet!

They (the Crying Scots) are still here but noone was crying to my knowlege. Just debating, which is what a forum is all about.

I'm assuming this comment is intended to WUM, but fair enough it raises another oppertunity for debate.

As I said it's the lad I felt sorry for. This whole mess could have been avoided if :

A) The WRU made it clear playing for the U20 tied you to Wales.
B) The IRB rules were less ambiguous.
C) The SRU did their homework
D) Shingler was better advised by his agent.

IMO Shingler was never at fault and was a victim of a terrible misunderstanding created by a combination of the WRU, SRU and the IRB.

I wish the lad all the best and I just hope that Gatland doesn't ignore him because they really need a credible option at 10 instead of Priestland who looked good in the RWC but has struggled for form since.

If he gets capped for Wales good on him. If that's where his heart trully lies I wish him all the best. I have no doubt both his parents will be very proud, although his mum will be slighlty disapointed though I'm sure.

He never deserved the debacle that this scenario created but since the IRB have ruled in the WRU's favour it's up to him to play so well that he can't be ignored.

No crying here

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:They (the Crying Scots) are still here but noone was crying to my knowlege. Just debating, which is what a forum is all about.

I'm assuming this comment is intended to WUM, but fair enough it raises another oppertunity for debate.

As I said it's the lad I felt sorry for. This whole mess could have been avoided if :

A) The WRU made it clear playing for the U20 tied you to Wales.
B) The IRB rules were less ambiguous.
C) The SRU did their homework
D) Shingler was better advised by his agent.

IMO Shingler was never at fault and was a victim of a terrible misunderstanding created by a combination of the WRU, SRU and the IRB.

I wish the lad all the best and I just hope that Gatland doesn't ignore him because they really need a credible option at 10 instead of Priestland who looked good in the RWC but has struggled for form since.

If he gets capped for Wales good on him. If that's where his heart trully lies I wish him all the best. I have no doubt both his parents will be very proud, although his mum will be slighlty disapointed though I'm sure.

He never deserved the debacle that this scenario created but since the IRB have ruled in the WRU's favour it's up to him to play so well that he can't be ignored.

No crying here

A fair few of the Scots did give me the impression they were crying, and they were eager to point all the blame at the WRU. As usual the English jumped on just so they could have a pop at Wales. I agree with your points A-D though. Good luck to Shingler.

but he is now a hostage of wales whether they did anything wrong is a moot point.

he is a welsh captive.

unless he develops Stockholm Syndrome wont he hate them forever for what they have done to him?

..and will they EVER

select him knowing that he rejected them??

Wales can have him.

We have far better options to choose from.

Alas though, he'll probably be ignored now but he should sack his agent.

Triangulation wrote:..and will they EVER

select him knowing that he rejected them??

I think it should be the least of your worries right now (England's ridiculous strategic plan?).

Triangulation wrote:..and will they EVER

select him knowing that he rejected them??

He'll be spending one day a week with Shaun Edwards at LI next season, so you never know.

He's playing well in the pre season sevens comp for London Irish..

Good player, I'm sure he is well within the scope of the scouts, especially with Shaun Edwards watching.

Personally I think he has made his choice that he wanted to try and get the 'easier' cap and took a gamble that he could sneak into Scotland. Now he has failed he is hoping that he can make it back into the Welsh setup. I really hope they tell him 'Sorry, you made your decision, and made us look bad in doing so, jog on'.

SS, if he improves over the next year to a level where he is by far and away the best Welsh qualified outside half, would you say the same.

It is easy to say 'jog on' at present as he is not first team material, but if the above transpired surely not picking him would be cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Shingler tied to Wales. Seems reckless behaviour from the young man. Surely he´ll only end up drowned.

I know it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, however we are talking about international rugby, about national pride, and not about feilding the best XV players you can lay your hands on (there is a differnce in my eyes).

It seems there are only a few of us who see it that way.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I know it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, however we are talking about international rugby, about national pride, and not about feilding the best XV players you can lay your hands on (there is a differnce in my eyes).

It seems there are only a few of us who see it that way.

My apologies Scarletspiderman, I meant to quote your point and somehow instead edited it, very sorry - Biltong

I'm not sure international sides can afford to be fussy. If he's better than actual 'Welsh' players (like in the case of North, Cuthbert etc) then he should be picked.

I'm sure principles won't get in the way.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I know it would be cutting off your nose to spite your face, however we are talking about international rugby, about national pride, and not about feilding the best XV players you can lay your hands on (there is a differnce in my eyes).

It seems there are only a few of us who see it that way.

At any level the coach's job is to select the best team that he can in order to win things. If Shingler was head and shoulders above anyone else in his position, do you really think that the coach would be able resist picking him. For me that would be a ridiculous thing to do if he could be the difference between winning a World Cup or not.

He's a young man who had his head turned by the promise of international rugby. He hasn't killed anyone or run off with the coaches wife, and if and when he is playing to the required standard he should be considered for selection along with everyone else in my opinion.

Ozzy - So for arguements sake if Henson were on form you would select him everytime? Some players blow their chances for themselves with what they do off the pitch. Shingler is a good player, and probably will be good enough to play international, I don't doubt that. However just look back at the amount of people who were calling the WRU into a heap over the whole issue. If you don't show respect to your national side, which he hasn't, then you shouldn't play for them

Biltong - you had me a bit confused then, I was thinking I had lost my marbles for a minute.

Sugar - do you really want to start going down the route of deciding nationality purely on where you are born, and ignoring where you grew up?

Sorry Sir, I feel real stupid for making such an error. I'll buy you a pint if I ever meet you.