If Hatton stayed with Graham would he have lasted longer against pac man?

Hatton had a good nutionist and strength coach in Kerry Kayes. Whilst Graham didn't have finesse he played on hattons strengths and had worked with him for years.

Whilst I think Hatton would have still lost against Pac man he did look gaunt and not so "full" at the weight.

Hatton weighed in at 140 for that fight, same as the rest of his career, barring WW obviously. Hatton's style lead to him taking a few shots along the way in order to land his own, this meant he was never really going to have any longevity, imo. Secondly, I think he was just caught with a beautiful punch that would have taken him out no matter the shape he was in or stage of his career.

Possibly, but you would have to think the way styles clashed that he was going to get a hiding almost regardless. The shot that finished him would have finished any version of Hatton in my opinion. Big solid shot that landed flush and he never saw it.

Well, its possibly, Hatton has said a million times he overtrained for that fight, I tend to believe it was a possibility and with Graham its less likely it would have happened, mind you, I'm not sure he would have lasted much longer and if that left hook lands then its game over no matter what.

Don't honestly think Hatton could ever have won the fight,but Hattons preparation and training camp was probably the worst of his career reading between the lines.

Mayweather was definitely the wrong choice of trainer,sometimes its better the devil you know,Graham knew Ricky inside out,and on the night Ricky fought like a novice against one of the PfP best.

I still tend to think, to this very day, that the version of Hatton-Pacquiao we saw was something of a freak result. Not because Pacquiao won, of course; 2009 was without question the summit of his career, at least to date, and I don't think any guise of Hatton could have contained him at that point. But I'm not sure Hatton would ever be annihilated so emphatically even if they'd fought another half-dozen times.

I think a few things conspired against Hatton, which contributed to the shocking and somewhat surreal result. I personally think that the upheaval in his training camp (arguing with Floyd Sr, being battered around by sparring partners, needing to intensify training in order to make weight when he should have been tapering off etc) is certainly responsible to a degree, and you'd have to question if such things would have been cropping up so prominently had he still been with Graham.

Floyd Sr even turned up late on actual fight night, for goodness sake. It was almost as if he forgot he actually had a fight to prepare his man for; instead, he seemed to spend most of the build up trying to score points over Roach.

I remember seeing Hatton at the weigh in and feeling worried. Not the first time he'd had to slim down from something like 180 lb to 140 lb, of course, but I vivdly remember being shocked at his lack of muscle definition and how flat he seemed in himself. We'll never know for sure, of course, but I can't shake off the feeling that there was something very, very wrong in the Hatton camp before that fight.

Pacquiao, in that kind of form, would have done away with the best version of Ricky inside the distance anyway, you'd think. But against that version, who also fought with an alarming lack of common sense and tactical awarness, he simply couldn't miss.

I also think it is easy to forget in the run up to the fight there was a perception going in that the thought of Manny hurting Ricky was seen as nonsensical, Hatton had never been really hurt at light welter, had only been over once early in his career and had took the best Kostya had been able to dish out and Manny, Oscar aside had not really fought above lightweight. Think to some degree this thinking permeated Ricky's thinking and influenced his tactics to some degree, perhaps if his camp, as Chris has said had not been great he thought his best tactic was to try and blaze Manny out quickly.

I never really thought Hatton did anything different to how he would normally have fought under any circumstances. Perhaps he lost an edge mentally with a poor training camp but Roachs gameplan, by his admission, was to simply take advantage of the things Hatton did over and over in his career.

I think there possibility question marks over the effect of his durability but like most have said, the shot that stopped him would have stopped any version of him if it landed and I get the impression I got in the fight was a shot like that was going to land sooner rather than later no matter what version of Hatton it was simply due to the way he fought during his career.

rowley wrote:I also think it is easy to forget in the run up to the fight there was a perception going in that the thought of Manny hurting Ricky was seen as nonsensical, Hatton had never been really hurt at light welter, had only been over once early in his career and had took the best Kostya had been able to dish out and Manny, Oscar aside had not really fought above lightweight. Think to some degree this thinking permeated Ricky's thinking and influenced his tactics to some degree.

I suspect you're bang on with that, Jeff. I'm sure you remember how most of Ricky's talk in the build up was based around how he'd be "too big, too strong" for Manny, rather than actually being "too good" for him.

It's also worth noting that, less than a year previously, Pacquiao had needed nine rounds to get rid of David Diaz at 135 lb, depite having all the time in the world to tee off on him. Yes, Hatton was the underdog, but I seriously doubt that anyone could really have forseen such a crushing defeat for him.

can't agree on this guys.

hatton may not have been obviously hurt at light welter before, but he was in trouble against collazo and knocked out by mayweather at welter. Neither known for their big hitting. If you wan't to cut ricky some slack you can buy his excuses that he was never a welter, but thats what they are in my view, excuses. Its half a weight class and mayweather in particular was only at welter because he chose to be. You're not chinny at welter and a rock at light welter.

I gave hatton little chance against floyd and little against manny. For the simple reason that they were the only 2 top quality fighters he met who were in their prime. He was brilliantly managed and with the exception of the calculated risk they took with tszyu, the only 2 times he stuck his head above the parapet he had it knocked off.

manny had ended oscar's career and the diaz win cited by chris was only that fighter's 2nd defeat, the first being controversial, so not like he had a rep for being chinny. granted that was at lightweight but the oscar fight made people really take notice.

It might have been a surprise that it happened so early, but a comprehensive defeat for ricky by manny wasn't that great a shock, certainly not to me and my mates watching it!

Milky think you are misunderstanding the point we are making slightly, we are not arguing Manny could not hurt him or beat him, i tipped him to do just that on the BBC before hand but there was a very prevalent view that Hatton would be able to take anything Manny could dish out, my argument is not that this view was right as patently it wasn't but more that Hatton may, on some level have bought into this mindset himself and it may have influenced his tactics.

88Chris05 wrote:I still tend to think, to this very day, that the version of Hatton-Pacquiao we saw was something of a freak result. Not because Pacquiao won, of course; 2009 was without question the summit of his career, at least to date, and I don't think any guise of Hatton could have contained him at that point. But I'm not sure Hatton would ever be annihilated so emphatically even if they'd fought another half-dozen times.

I think a few things conspired against Hatton, which contributed to the shocking and somewhat surreal result. I personally think that the upheaval in his training camp (arguing with Floyd Sr, being battered around by sparring partners, needing to intensify training in order to make weight when he should have been tapering off etc) is certainly responsible to a degree, and you'd have to question if such things would have been cropping up so prominently had he still been with Graham.

Floyd Sr even turned up late on actual fight night, for goodness sake. It was almost as if he forgot he actually had a fight to prepare his man for; instead, he seemed to spend most of the build up trying to score points over Roach.

I remember seeing Hatton at the weigh in and feeling worried. Not the first time he'd had to slim down from something like 180 lb to 140 lb, of course, but I vivdly remember being shocked at his lack of muscle definition and how flat he seemed in himself. We'll never know for sure, of course, but I can't shake off the feeling that there was something very, very wrong in the Hatton camp before that fight.

Pacquiao, in that kind of form, would have done away with the best version of Ricky inside the distance anyway, you'd think. But against that version, who also fought with an alarming lack of common sense and tactical awarness, he simply couldn't miss.

Agree with a lot of this. Hatton was poorly prepped for Pac. Mayweather was doing nothing for him, apparently. Not even turning up to sessions on time. Graham would have guided Hatton better, but make no mistake (which I don't think anyone is) Pac KO was going to be the outcome. By that time in Hattons career all the punches he had shipped in his career had caught up with him.

I also heard Hatton was getting dropped in sparring by the likes of LAra, with ease. That couldn't have helped his confidence.

i appreciate that was partly your point rowley, but i'm not sure getting knocked out, fighting lazcano and malignaggi to test your chin, suggests you then go into a fight with manny feeling you can't be hurt - even accepting that pac hadn't proved himself at the weight. Obviously fighters make excuses for themselves to give themselves confidence, so i don't doubt ricky was convincing himself he was unbeatable at light welter, but i reckon he felt his best way to win was to take the fight to manny - its not like he ever really had a different plan anyway. He just met someone who was too good, and who would have been at anytime with any trainer in my opinion.

Didn't Hatton also wobble a couple of times against Lazcano? I remember him getting tagged and looking wobbly and getting a breather as the ref halted the fight so Hatton could get his laces tied.

Atila wrote:Didn't Hatton also wobble a couple of times against Lazcano? I remember him getting tagged and looking wobbly and getting a breather as the ref halted the fight so Hatton could get his laces tied.

Yep was out on his feet. He was done after Mayweather really, in terms of reilience

I think you have to remember why he left Graham in the first place. The feeling was things had gone stagnant, especially after the Lazcano fight. When Mayweather came in Hatton had, in my opinion, one of his best wins and performances against Malignaggi. Malignaggi isnt a pound for pound king but hes a good fighter and has proved before and since he has plenty in the tank and a great chin.

Lara in hindsight was obviously a bad choice of sparring partner. Hes much bigger and stronger and Hatton and when you look at what he did to Williams who is a a far bigger and stronger kind of Hattons style then its easy to imagine those sparring sessions being ugly for Hatton. Possibly Hatton at the time took these sparring sessions to mean he wasnt in good nick for the fight but the reality was he was actually just being set against a world class standard partner that was much bigger than him in sparring. Its only lately weve seen the level Lara is at whereas back then he might have been viewed as someone Hatton should have been walking through and dealing with. I doubt even Hatton at his very best would be able to overcome Lara though.

Ricky talking about fighting Manny. "Yeah bring it on, I'd definitely like to do it as a champion, what we doing in the game if we don't take on the big challenges? Imean I've had 46 fights now, I've only lost one, nobody will beat me at Junior Welterweight, I genuinely believe that, noone will ever beat me at Junior Welterweight, but what sort of a champion would I have been if I just stayed in my own weight and didn't take the big challenges on? Bring 'em on, thats what Ricky Hattons all about"

Think he sounds there as though he doesn't believe he could be beaten at LWW, especially by a guy moving up.

Wasn't Ricky and pundits alike full of praise for Ricky after the Mallignanni fight; his first under Floyd snr?

Hatton didn't over-train against Paq. He was just beaten by the better guy. I reckon Paq's left hand is still until after Ricky assaulted it with his chin.

azania wrote:Wasn't Ricky and pundits alike full of praise for Ricky after the Mallignanni fight; his first under Floyd snr?

Hatton didn't over-train against Paq. He was just beaten by the better guy. I reckon Paq's left hand is still until after Ricky assaulted it with his chin.

Malignaggi taggd him plenty early, but Hatton was always going towalk through him as he is feather fisted.

Hatton overtrained, but would have been beaten by Pac anyway.

What is overtraining?

azania wrote:What is overtraining?

A convenient excuse for Hatton getting beaten by the better fighter.

Atila wrote:

azania wrote:What is overtraining?

A convenient excuse for Hatton getting beaten by the better fighter.

That's what I thought also.

Don't see the relevance of the Malignaggi fight in all this as the guy despite being talented and durable simply can't punch, Hatton was always going to be able to walk through him with ease. Going from taking the best Tzuyu had to offer to being rocked by Lazcano does strongly suggest that his chin had diminished a fair bit, he would never have been able to beat Pacquiao but have to think he lasts a lot longer a few years earlier.