Newcastle Falcons Thread - Use Championship thread

[Geordie]

First topic message reminder :

A thread to keep an eye on the summer activities...still to find out if its premiership or championship.

Current Squad:

Forwards
Props:
Grant Shiels
Euan Murray
Ashley Wells
John Golding
Scott Wilson
James Hall - Has he left?
Oliver Tomasczyk

Hookers:
Matt Thompson
Rob Vickers
George McGuigan
Joe Graham
Michel Mayhew

Second Rows
Carlo Del Fava
Adriaan Fondse
james Hudson
Josh Beaumont
Scott MacLeod
Richard Boyle
Glen Townson

Back Row
Taisina Tui'Fua
Ally Hogg
Will Welch
Richard Mayhew
Mark Wilson
Adam Balding
Joe Robinson
Chris York

Backs
SH's
Rory Lawson
Jordi Pasqualin
Chris Pilgrim

Fh's
Joel Hodgson (Or will he move to SH)
Jimmy Gopperth
Tom Catterick
Waisea Luveniyali

Centres
Corne Ullys
Jamie Helleur
James Fitzpatrick
Luke Fielden
Tane Tu'ipulotu
Andrew Higgins
Alex Crocket
Michael Tait

Back 3
Greg Goosen
Kirbridge
Alex Tait
Ryan Shortland
Tom Bedford
Suka Hufanga
Ricki Sheriffe

Please who have left:
Will Chudley: Scrum Half Exeter
Tim Swinson: 6 / Second Row Glasgow Warriors
Andrew van der Heijden has confirmed he is returning back to New Zealand (Aukland)
James Goode is likely to head back to the Ospreys after the end of his loan deal
Peter Stringer will return back to Munster for next season.

[Cumbrian]

He could be like our George North given the the space and time on the ball.

This is good. So we've got the Cumbrian Stephen Ferris in Joe Robinson and now the Blaydon George North... We'll be unstoppable!

[Driver]

Or the biggest Wannabes ever.

We could be the Wannabes instead of the Wallabies!

I'm here all night



Also who's down for the festival of rugby on 10th August? Seems a good excuse for a few 606v2 beers!

[Cumbrian]

Surely if Hodgson can't meet the physical requirements of the Championship then he's going to really struggle to ever make it in the Prem.

He'll have another year to develop physically, whilst having cameos in the championship... he is only 19 after all. I think he'll be okay by the time we are looking to be in the Premiership again. I must say I reckon he'll end up as a SH that can fill in at FH though.

[Welshmushroom]

Erm I wouldnt count my chickens in the Championship. Bristol hardly got beat last season and topped the table only for the crazy playoff to claim them as a casualty, even though they had one of the best squads in the league.

Newcastle will be desperate to go back up no question but given that there are some very established sides playing in that league it wont be easy.

I also think if Newcastle fail to get promotion this year they may never get back to the Premiership again which would be devastating for North East England Rugby community.

[LondonTiger]

Play-offs are slightly less convoluted in the Championship this year. Can still be a lottery though.

[Equo Troiano]

Ah, so who will Falcons be playing in the Christmas fixture then?

It used to be Leeds at home, but Leeds' relegation put paid to that, last year I think it was Sale (away), so that were no good.

Pray for a home fixture this year, always up in that neck of the woods at Christmas as my wife is from Co Durham.

[TrailApe]

Erm I wouldnt count my chickens in the Championship. Bristol hardly got beat last season and topped the table only for the crazy playoff to claim them as a casualty, even though they had one of the best squads in the league.

Welshmushroom - I don't think anyone at the Falcons think that the Championship teams are going to roll over and die just because they are playing us.

However the team that plays in the Championship this coming season will be a better side than that which blundered through most of last season. The squad we had was comparable with a good few of the Jeff sides, but our coaching was abysmal.

This has been remedied and we are looking to build on the progress made by Gary Gold and move on from there.

Nobody thinks it will be easy - but we do think it's possible.

This might be the sort of boundless optimism more often displayed by a certain nation west of Offa's Dyke , but I firmly believe that IF we had stayed up this year, we would have done a LOT better.


Of course this is all blah and we'll only find out when it kicks off next season.

I can't wait!

[Cumbrian]

Totally agree, it would be arrogant to dismiss the Championship sides, but we've got to be confident our team can cope. The alternative is that we'll never be good for the Premiership again.

[Geordie]

Id rather see that big blaydon fella knuckle down at second row. 6'9, with the pace of a winger..or mobile at the least...puts him in the same frame as Ritchie Gray. Now he might be nowhere near his talent...but he needs to settle.

I dont like that his idol is.....Matt banahan

[Sgt_Pooly]

I've just started a game on Rugby manager as Falcons. So far I've signed Juan Smith, Deon Stegman, Nalaga and Kirchner..........if only

[Geordie]

I think we'll be strong next season...Deano knows what hes doing. We have some good players, and its a chance to bring in some local talent and come back up firing....

Many other fans might disagree...but i think a Strong Newcastle side is good for the Premiership...

[Geordie]

Erm I wouldnt count my chickens in the Championship. Bristol hardly got beat last season and topped the table only for the crazy playoff to claim them as a casualty, even though they had one of the best squads in the league.

Newcastle will be desperate to go back up no question but given that there are some very established sides playing in that league it wont be easy.

I also think if Newcastle fail to get promotion this year they may never get back to the Premiership again which would be devastating for North East England Rugby community.

Bristol should be in the premiership not Oxford Welsh...

[TrailApe]

Bristol should be in the premiership not Oxford Welsh....

If Bristol had been promoted I think the task of getting out of the Championship would have been a lot easier.

I'm not suprised that a small element of the Warriors fans were quite vociferous in support of LW on some of the other boards .

Now I'm not dismissing LW's pool of players out of hand but they didn't factor in promotion early in their season and didn't buy in suitable players and probably are now burning the telegraph wires, telephone lines, fax machines and other communication devices looking for fresh blood (and remember they will not be able to use their dual registered players if those players are registered with a Jeff team), so I reckon Worcester are looking at them as the buffer to keep them out of the relegation zone (Wasps being the wild card in this equation).

And of course on the other hand I might be talking out of my hind end.

Looking to the middle term future we are going to have to ring fence the professional teams - there are about 14-16 teams that could make a good fist of competing at the top level and I think the English game needs some stability, P shares and parachute payments are all very well, but these clubs are now business and need to be able to plan ahead.

The concept of promotion/relegation is all very well, but once you drop into the lower tier it then becomes difficult - once you stuggle back up again - to compete at the same level as the incumbents. The Falcons are in a good place at the minute and will probably weather this period, but what would have happened if we had not conceded that scrum penalty in the last minute against Quins and ran out winneers - what would have happened to Wasps?

Now I know there are a lot of us out here would have experienced a fleeting glow as we heard they were going down, but what if they then had imploded and went into free fall? They may not be everyones favourite team, but they are important to English rugby. We cannot have a situation where relegation means destruction.

[Portnoy]

It was reported on R5 this morning that the Falcons are vot going to challenge the LW decision.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2168054/Newcastle-Falcons-appeal-decision-grant-London-Welsh-promotion.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

[formerly known as Sam]

Now I know there are a lot of us out here would have experienced a fleeting glow as we heard they were going down, but what if they then had imploded and went into free fall? They may not be everyones favourite team, but they are important to English rugby. We cannot have a situation where relegation means destruction.

Parachoute payments, the salary cap and plain financial common sense are there to stop that. I don't believe that any more financial hand holding is needed, if it is then the CFO should not be in a job.

I think that the ring fencing concept is horrendous. It rules out so many teams that could in the future be a great AP team. Ok, LW are a mess and will get roundly abused next season but teams like the Cornish Pirates and Nottingham are doing their best to develop and become AP material. That won't happen overnight and they aren't ready to be ring fenced in but to ring fence them out would ruin them. This whole elitest, super club philosophy is horse manure. It may work in countries where the geography is easily split (e.g. Ireland) but look how awful it's been in Wales and Scotland where the land is not easily spit into groups. Welsh rugby is financially on it's knees and largely ignored. The relegation dog fight is what keeps half of the AP interesting, the challenge for the playoffs and top spot keeps the other half interesting. It works so leave it alone!

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Now I know there are a lot of us out here would have experienced a fleeting glow as we heard they were going down, but what if they then had imploded and went into free fall? They may not be everyones favourite team, but they are important to English rugby. We cannot have a situation where relegation means destruction.

Parachoute payments, the salary cap and plain financial common sense are there to stop that. I don't believe that any more financial hand holding is needed, if it is then the CFO should not be in a job.

I think that the ring fencing concept is horrendous. It rules out so many teams that could in the future be a great AP team. Ok, LW are a mess and will get roundly abused next season but teams like the Cornish Pirates and Nottingham are doing their best to develop and become AP material. That won't happen overnight and they aren't ready to be ring fenced in but to ring fence them out would ruin them. This whole elitest, super club philosophy is horse manure. It may work in countries where the geography is easily split (e.g. Ireland) but look how awful it's been in Wales and Scotland where the land is not easily spit into groups. Welsh rugby is financially on it's knees and largely ignored. The relegation dog fight is what keeps half of the AP interesting, the challenge for the playoffs and top spot keeps the other half interesting. It works so leave it alone!

Sam, i get your general point, but the reason behind the recent poor show from Scottish rugby in general has nothing to do with false groupings - the districts on which the (originally 4) pro-teams are based were established many decades ago

[formerly known as Sam]

I was thinking more of that they had cut the four down to two and those two were supposed to represent all Scottish Rugby which would be a failing. As would potentially ring fencing the AP and expecting Exeter Chiefs to represent the South West corner of the country. Relying on Worcester to represent the majority of the West Midlands etc.

[TrailApe]

OK fnaS - I take your point (which I sort of agree with anyway) so how about doing a typical English bodge and setting up a couple of confrences with the main contenders and then after a suitable period (3 to 5 years?) look at the performances of those within the structure and those that are outside the structure and take it from there?

Those teams that aspire to sit at the top table can then build towards that goal - and the lagg time might frighten of the smash and grab merchants who want to dip their muzzle into the SKY/ESPN trough without having to go through the hard work to get there.

[Cumbrian]

Please don’t think I’m being dismissive or condescending, but to me promotion and relegation is for romantics. I believe that England can only realistically support so many professional rugby clubs; there is too much competition from other sports. I know Exeter is an example of what can be done, but let’s put in perspective. They are the only team to do it in what ten/ twelve years?

Look at the world Rugby model; it’s us and France who are left with traditional promotion/ relegation. That doesn’t mean that they are all right and we are wrong, but it does show that a closed shop can work.

I think the need for relegation to gain attendances can be argued too. Look at Super league. They don’t have ring fencing and their average crowds are similar to that of the Premiership and some of those teams are from geographically small towns like Castleford. Maybe if the pressure to grind out results wasn’t there, Newcastle and Worcester could have been freed of the shackles a bit and played more entertaining rugby?

I would say, if ring fencing is ever brought in, it should be handled like the SL with the situation being reviewed every few years. I also think that the clubs wishing to get into the Premiership should be helped as much as possible by the RFU and the PRL.

[formerly known as Sam]

How about tiering the Championship playoffs more in favour of the top 2 Championship teams and hence reducing the chance of some upstarts ala LW creeping in. I've also said that any Championship team who makes the playoff should be offered the chance to tender for a £1m asset improvement grant from the RFU. Sky are starting to pay good money for these so let's give them something to get excited about. If a Championship club can prove they are going to make good use of the million then give it to them. With only 4 playoff contenders for next season that won't hurt the RFU coffers that much (max £3m given out as promoted team don't count).

Maybe if the pressure to grind out results wasn’t there, Newcastle and Worcester could have been freed of the shackles a bit and played more entertaining rugby?

Or maybe they would still be wallowing in mediocracy like Connacht and the Dragons safe in the knowledge that the results don't really matter that much, particularly for Newcaslte because in reality we want them there promoting rugby up north. Why remove the incentive for them to improve?

You say that Chiefs are the only club to come up and suceed well LW are up now for the first time ever in the AP with Cornish Pirates and Bedford both looking to build sustainably and join them. Take away the financial carrott and those plans to build will die away and only come around every three years when the opportunity to tender for a spot comes around (que more ground shares along the way).

[Cumbrian]

You say that Chiefs are the only club to come up and suceed well LW are up now for the first time ever in the AP with Cornish Pirates and Bedford both looking to build sustainably and join them. Take away the financial carrott and those plans to build will die away and only come around every three years when the opportunity to tender for a spot comes around (que more ground shares along the way).

Thing is, take Cornish Pirates. Do you let them into the Premiership as they are now, playing at Mennaye Field? The place only holds 4000 people, there’s got to be a minimum standard somewhere. How do you sell the potential of the Premiership to sponsors when you have team’s based in small/ run down stadiums? Don’t get me wrong, I‘ve seen (and signed) the petition for the Pirate’s new stadium. But it is currently just a vision and seems a long way off. In the meantime their plans were to share with Plymouth Argyle. Yet we’ve all seen that teams that ground share like that lose money hand-over-fist and Pirates only have a 2000 average attendance to fall back on.

I honestly believe that that this is the danger for London Welsh, they’ve barely averaged 1200 fans this year. Even if they get a 500% increase on this, they’ll still be comfortably the lowest in the AP. That is without taking to account the move away from their core support and the rental costs of the Kassam Stadium. I can only see it ending in tears.

Or maybe they would still be wallowing in mediocracy like Connacht and the Dragons safe in the knowledge that the results don't really matter that much, particularly for Newcaslte because in reality we want them there promoting rugby up north. Why remove the incentive for them to improve?

I see what you are saying, but I just don’t agree. The current threat of relegation hasn’t improved the way Bristol, Leeds, Worcester or Newcastle have played. Very rarely do you see teams being relegated or staving off relegation by throwing the ball about. I think it actively forces them to play within themselves and grind out results. Relegation doesn’t allow them to plan for the future and leads to them having their best players stripped away by other Premiership clubs.

[formerly known as Sam]

The current threat of relegation hasn’t improved the way Bristol, Leeds, Worcester or Newcastle have played. Very rarely do you see teams being relegated or staving off relegation by throwing the ball about. I think it actively forces them to play within themselves and grind out results. Relegation doesn’t allow them to plan for the future and leads to them having their best players stripped away by other Premiership clubs.

My counter arguement would be that the security of a ring fenced league has done very little to help those at the bottom of the pile in the Rabo. The Dragons and Connacht have been awful for years and that doesn't look likely to change.

If a team isn't good enough then they get relegated and often come back in a far better condition than they went down in. Look at Quins and Saints. They came back up completely rejuvinated, I bet that never happens for the bottom feeders in the Rabo.

As for players, well teams will always steal players off each other. Tigers stole some off of Newcastle, Quins nicked Charlie Walker out of the Tigers academy etc. It will always happen and there's not a lot you can do about it as it's a free market in terms of employment. Either sign them up to a long contract or risk losing them at contract renewal time.

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

I was thinking more of that they had cut the four down to two and those two were supposed to represent all Scottish Rugby which would be a failing. As would potentially ring fencing the AP and expecting Exeter Chiefs to represent the South West corner of the country. Relying on Worcester to represent the majority of the West Midlands etc.

Gotcha, yes, it does represent failure in that sense, altho there are always plans/pipe dreams afoot to resuscitate them at some point in the future! But the main reasons for Scottish past failings lie elsewhere

[HammerofThunor]

Sam, do you think a 3 year franchise system wouldn't be a good idea? So all clubs would have three years security in the premiership to build themselves up. And the championship clubs would have a three year period to plan and develop to the required level.

Here's the big question, is that better than complete ring fencing with no real review period?

One thing you can be sure about, not everyone will be happy no matter what you do.

[Cumbrian]

My counter arguement would be that the security of a ring fenced league has done very little to help those at the bottom of the pile in the Rabo. The Dragons and Connacht have been awful for years and that doesn't look likely to change.

If a team isn't good enough then they get relegated and often come back in a far better condition than they went down in. Look at Quins and Saints. They came back up completely rejuvinated, I bet that never happens for the bottom feeders in the Rabo.

That's one example though, look at Super Rugby. Would you argue they are worse because of ring fencing? The thing I would say about Connacht is that they have suffered because of the IRFU's policy of using them as a development team. I don't know enough about the Dragons to comment on their situation. But within that league, look at Glasgow. In 2010-11 they finished second bottom, but this year they made it into the playoffs. Connacht themselves made it up to the mid-table. Yes the usual suspects (Leinster, Munster and Ospreys ect) are usually around the playoffs, but the same can be said of our league at the moment. Leicester, Northampton, Saracens or Quins are always there or there abouts.


In my opinion Quins and Northampton were anomalies. They are and were two of the strongest, best supported clubs in the country in traditional rugby areas. They were always likely to come good again. Look at the overall picture. Two clubs come back from relegation stronger, the others who are involved in it year-in-year out haven't. I hope Newcastle can replicate this, but I'd be delighted with mid-table obscurity if I am being honest.

As for players, well teams will always steal players off each other. Tigers stole some off of Newcastle, Quins nicked Charlie Walker out of the Tigers academy etc. It will always happen and there's not a lot you can do about it as it's a free market in terms of employment. Either sign them up to a long contract or risk losing them at contract renewal time.

Maybe you can't, but stability attracts better players and knowing a team will be in the top division attracts better foreign players. The club becomes more attractive to young home grown players if you can attract these overseas stars. It makes the club looks like it has got ambitions. You simply have to look at the way the players spoke about Carl Hayman when he was at Newcastle, he made other people want to play for us.

[Big]

Sam, do you think a 3 year franchise system wouldn't be a good idea? So all clubs would have three years security in the premiership to build themselves up. And the championship clubs would have a three year period to plan and develop to the required level.

Here's the big question, is that better than complete ring fencing with no real review period?

One thing you can be sure about, not everyone will be happy no matter what you do.

I used to be all for promotion/relegation but I have to admit I'm coming to the view that a franchise system would be better, perhaps more like 4 or 5 years though as I think they need that long to have a fair crack at making progress (whether that's about developing facilities, developing players, or promoting the game in their area). I think the law would need to be laid down pretty firmly though to ensure that teams actually used that protection to allow the long term development that is so difficult now.

[LondonTiger]

I still think there is mileage in following the RL superleague whereby if you meet the criteria, you get a guaranteed time in the top flight to allow for development.

It limits the need for short term signings and just gives some breathing space. Leeds in particular could have done with it.

[HammerofThunor]

I still think there is mileage in following the RL superleague whereby if you meet the criteria, you get a guaranteed time in the top flight to allow for development.

It limits the need for short term signings and just gives some breathing space. Leeds in particular could have done with it.

You mean if you're in top XX that make the criteria you have the time. There were plenty of grumbles about that (if I remember correctly Widnes were fuming when the Crusaders got their place because they were in Brindgend, a long way from other teams).

And regarding 4/5 years. Would you have forced relegation (e.g. the lowest scoring team is relegated and the highest scoring team from the league below promoted) or simply reassess the criteria? Would you limit it to one team, two, etc, or unlimited changes?

If the RFU are swayed to the idea of ring fencing I really hope they try out this sort of thing first.

[LondonTiger]

Widnes were unhappy, then just go down to meeting the criteria nad going up. Now they are protected.

There are issues with the current criteria - and following LWs day in court they are probably invalid. However they are actually a good idea (except fro that silly 10k capacity, and maybe primacy of tenure).


If I ran the whole shebang, and good job I don't, I would revise the criteria and then tell every club who does not meet the new criteria that they will be the only clubs up for relegation in the short term. Clubs could only be promoted if they meet the criteria and top the Championship (I would do away with Play-Offs in the Championship - as they do not have major issues losing players to international duty).

Once all teams in the Premiership meet the standards criteria (either by developing their grounds or through promotion/relegation) - then the system would change slightly.

Clubs would then be given a franchise licence to participate in the top league, with review of this every 3/4 years. At the end of this period, Championship teams could be apply to participate in the top flight.

[formerly known as Sam]

I would do away with Play-Offs in the Championship

LT, my understanding is that the Playoffs are the only money spinning event in the Championship and so the RFU and club owners are keen for it to continue as it brings in vital revenue. Though currently it seems like the RFU are trying to make off with more than their fair share but that's a topic for another thread.

In my opinion Quins and Northampton were anomalies. They are and were two of the strongest, best supported clubs in the country in traditional rugby areas. They were always likely to come good again. Look at the overall picture. Two clubs come back from relegation stronger, the others who are involved in it year-in-year out haven't.

Cumbrian, Leeds and Bristol have also been big clubs coming from rugby strongholds. The fact they've not returned is because they are either not good enough in terms of financial control or because they have not played to a high enough standard (okay, that's harsh on Bristol but they knew the rules at the start of the season, maybe they should take it to court?) and that means they don't deserve to be in the AP. Tough luck now get on with it. The league system is elitist and that's the end of it. I don't want to see the dull mollycoddled Rabo style system where so many league games lack meaning and atmosphere (and no the Super 15 isn't comparible that is more like the HEC). To many of the Rabo sides only get fired up for the HEC and I don't want that I want to see England with a proper league where on every weekend their is highly competitive rugby.

[TrailApe]

formerly known as Sam,

you are probably a top bloke, so don't take this the wrong way, but a Tigers fan arguing for the merits of relegation just comes across as David Cameron telling us we are all in it together.

Sorry mate

[formerly known as Sam]

that did make me laugh TrailApe. To be honest I was really hoping Newcastle would stay up and be playing Tigers late September around the same time as I'm up in Northumberland for a wedding and the Missus is doing the Great North Run. Would have been an ace fortnight but not to be.

Unlikely as we are to go down if we were in that position and prefer us to get dropped into the Championship and ditch the deadwood. Rebuild from the academy and the stalwarts and come back as a proper team with the ethos of the club at the heart of everything we do. That's got to be better than sitting at the bottom of the pile for three years and then getting dropped out of the comp for the next three before attempting to tender again.

[LondonTiger]

formerly known as Sam,

you are probably a top bloke, so don't take this the wrong way, but a Tigers fan arguing for the merits of relegation just comes across as David Cameron telling us we are all in it together.

Sorry mate

You mean we are not? Dave knows what life is like for the average man. After all him and SamCam have had to make cutbacks, and only had 4 foreign holidays last year and one was on EasyJet

[Cumbrian]

I would do away with Play-Offs in the Championship

LT, my understanding is that the Playoffs are the only money spinning event in the Championship and so the RFU and club owners are keen for it to continue as it brings in vital revenue. Though currently it seems like the RFU are trying to make off with more than their fair share but that's a topic for another thread.

In my opinion Quins and Northampton were anomalies. They are and were two of the strongest, best supported clubs in the country in traditional rugby areas. They were always likely to come good again. Look at the overall picture. Two clubs come back from relegation stronger, the others who are involved in it year-in-year out haven't.

Cumbrian, Leeds and Bristol have also been big clubs coming from rugby strongholds. The fact they've not returned is because they are either not good enough in terms of financial control or because they have not played to a high enough standard (okay, that's harsh on Bristol but they knew the rules at the start of the season, maybe they should take it to court?) and that means they don't deserve to be in the AP. Tough luck now get on with it. The league system is elitist and that's the end of it. I don't want to see the dull mollycoddled Rabo style system where so many league games lack meaning and atmosphere (and no the Super 15 isn't comparible that is more like the HEC). To many of the Rabo sides only get fired up for the HEC and I don't want that I want to see England with a proper league where on every weekend their is highly competitive rugby.

I would argue that Leeds isn't a rugby union strong hold, Bristol is though. I'd also argue that Bristol played at higher standard than Welsh, well they proved that they can play better for longer anyway. That is besides the point because you're right, under the current rules Welsh are deservedly in the AP. My point is will they be able to cope with it? We will have to wait and see for that.

It's a question of opinion, as to whether the Rabo is dull too. It is worth noting that if you take out the Italian teams, their average attendances aren't that far off the AP's.

I'd also disagree that the S15 is the equivalent of the HC, it seems more like the Rabo where the players have a province and a home club as well. The teams never change in the competition, there is no qualifying to it. The thing is you are pushing the idea that just because a situation exists in one place, it will always the same in another. Who's to say that the AP wouldn't thrive in a ring fenced atmosphere? Who's to say it would be exciting, just because you believe the Rabo isn't? The Super 15 is exciting and it could be the same in the AP in my opinion.

[formerly known as Sam]

I'd also disagree that the S15 is the equivalent of the HC, it seems more like the Rabo where the players have a province and a home club as well.

More in that it's the pinacle of their domestic rugby Cumbrian. The Rabo teams do not treat the Rabo as the pinacle of their domestic season, the HEC takes a clear priority. Which is fair enough, it is up to the club/province/whatever as to how they want to position their resources. However, I like the set up the AP has where every game counts and where the league is as valued as the HEC. I fear that by ringfencing the league dead rubber games will become prevailant, especially, in teams no longer able to make a charge for the title. Experimentation with no care about losing will become the norm for the final third of the competition and that will be disappointing.

That level of thinking has already appeared to a desgree. Worcester came to Welford Rd knowing they were safe and named a strong side that ditched their successful game plan in order to throw the ball around and play like the Baabaas. They got trounced and it made a dull game out of something that could have been worthwhile, the only interest was Andy Goode and his two YCs. I don't want games like that and less opportunity that there is for coaches to get away with silly stuff like that the better. If teams want to experiment without the fear of losing then there are pre season games, the LV Cup and the A League. The AP should see the best each side can offer.

LW are a very fortunate anomoly. A season of beatings and they'll go back down and are unlikely to be seen again in the AP anytime soon.

[Geordie]

Well Done Will Welch,22, Named Captain for the forth coming season.

Well all wish him well..

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

Tis a good choice, Geordie

[reallybored]

Can someone fill me in of Grant Shiells; how good is he right now and does he have International potential?

How'd Hogg fair last year? Was always a big fan of him, rarely had a poor game but just lacked the punch of a World Class 8.

[Driver]

Shiells is ok but never a international.

Hogg done ok but can see him being weinded out next season.

[Geordie]

Yeah my starting back row...wouldnt include Hogg

[Driver]

We have a tasty back row for next season.....

Tui'fua
Welch
York

Wilson
Robinson







Hogg

[Cumbrian]

Think there will be much of a chance that we'll see Josh Beaumont next season? I was really interested when he signed up, but I've basically heard nothing about him since then. I know he was meant to be taking it easy whilst finishing his studies and what not, but I expected to see him at least once or twice.

[TrailApe]

I see there are rumours on the unofficial board the Jeremy Manning might soon be an 'out'.

With regards to Josh Beaumont and the young lads, I bet we see a few of them in the B&I cup.

[Geordie]

Yeah i think we'll see quite a bit more of the youngsters this season.

With regards to Manning....im not that concerned over him becoming an "out".

And that would suggest Gopprth to FB and catterick & Hodgson battling out for 10 spot

[Geordie]

I see we have signed 26yr old Fiji international FH Waisea Luveniyali.

Formerly of.......London Welsh....

[Cumbrian]

It's not all that inspiring is it? It seems certain that Gopperth will be playing some time at FB and Catterick will be pushed further down the pecking order...

[formerly known as Sam]

Or the Fijian chappy is coming in to add squad depth with Hodgson moving to 9, Catterick at 10 and Gopperth banished to 15?

[Geordie]

Do you think this guy will be first choice Cumbrian?
I confess i know absolutely squat about him....aside from he's played at 3 world cup finals aparently...not bad for a 26yr old.

I would certainly hope the 10 spot is shared amongst him and Catterick.

Richards must see something in him though...cant imagine the club signing him without Deanos approval....

[Geordie]

Possibly Sam. And i would certainly hope so.

Hodgson is in the England 7's squad this season. How many games roughly does that see a player miss?

Ps on a different note...I see every home game is penciled in for a friday night this season...

[AsLongAsBut100ofUs]

No harm in having good back up?

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