Springboks should field relatively young team vs the English.

First topic message reminder :

It has been confirmed by Heyneke Meyer that Victor Matfield will not return to Springbok rugby, but might be involved as a line out advisor. After Fourie du Preez and Jaque Fourie who both play rugby in Japan have confirmed they will not be available, and considering Juan Smit, Schalk Burger are both injured, and John Smit retired alongside Gurthro Steenkamp, Bakkies Botha and Danie Rossouw, that means nine regulars are not available for the English test series.

Out.

John Smit - retired
Bakkies Botha - France
Vicki Matfield - Retired
Fourie du Preez - Retired
Jaque Fourie - Japan, might as well be retired from international rugby.
Juan Smit - long term injury
Schalk Buger - long term injury (might be available for Four nations)
Gurthro Steenkamp - retired
Danie Rossouw - Retired


Now we just need to get rid of Morne.

The person most South Africans fear is Lee Mears Pocket dynamo.... I heard Bismaarck checks under his bed every night in fear of him.

It seems there are quite a number of SA rugby players who checks under their beds at night.

burger does it to see if McCaw is there.

You do it to see if Bryce is there!

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:You do it to see if Bryce is there!

You shouldn't mock our players like that Kia, we will put even more financial burden on the NZRU by sending then the whole country's therapy bills

Wasn't mocking your players mate. Just you.

I do believe though that the people we mock the most, deep down are the people we respect or fear if you like the most. Then again England often proves the exception to this rule as, unfair though it, most of us like to always make a crack at the English. They're like a humorous Voodoo doll. But maybe it's a sign of respect to them that they gave us this wonderful game.

Humorous or humorless?

Just checking.

Guys - who are you referring to when you say Maisiekind? Is that Lambie?

boomeranga wrote:Guys - who are you referring to when you say Maisiekind? Is that Lambie?

Wynand Olivier ,incidentally i just saw a video where he mentions he was voted Cosmo sexiest man of 2010 () i can only hope they dont play in the pink kit today

who was voting in that contest.... was it exclusive to the guests staying in Goodwood Prison perhaps???

2nd place probably went to Kurt Darren.

Biltong - was that the rugbydump 'crowd goes wild clip'? The reporter was putting him up to it though, asking questions about his hair etc...and FA the kiwi reporter lady seemed to think he was quite 'aesthetically pleasing' (that's how she put it). However, I'd rather have an ugly brute who can play!

http://www.keo.co.za/2012/05/26/du-preez-set-to-skipper-boks/ Biltong you're not going to like this one bit

Biltong is not going to like that at all.

In my view this is the worst mistake Meyer can make.

Effectively he is proving the point that he will only work in pivotal positions with Bulls personnel.

Whether it is coaching positions, captaining positions or players.

I fear we wil be repeating the same mistakes all over again.

Prepare yourselves for much of the same.

Bulls, coach, Bulls assistant coaches, Bulls captain, Bulls 9 and 10, Bulls gameplan.

Calm down mate its a temporary basis and after watching hougie have a shocker at 9 yesterday i'm a bit pleased. Du Preez will settle the team for the first half predictably before Hougaard takes over

Bullsbok, i am tired of having a settled team.

We've had that for 4 years and it got us nowhere. By the way, Hougaard did as well as any halfback would have done under those circumstances. That guy still has hunger, passion, is as nuggety and tough as a Wilson toffee.

Now you want to go for the dull and boring box kick.

I bet you Fourie du Preez is going to stay on after the English tour for the Rugby Champiosnhip as well.

We will see him and Morne Steyn for the next #$%^ 4 years. Until eventually Lambie and Goosen has had too liittle oopportunity to combine with Hougaard

This guy sounds like Kidney. Very similar to our woes regarding Ireland..

Rory, my problem is this.

We know we can mix it with the best playing the way we do, but we als know we can't maintain a number 1 in the world with predictable rugby.

So Meyer has a choice, does he also want a 2/3 win ratio like most before him, or does he want to be better.

To me he is settling for second best.

Believe in Meyer . This guy built a bulls dynasty he made them 3 time super champions , if anyone can return the Boks to the top of the pile its Heyneke Meyer

He isn't convincing me yet.

The only faint hope I have is that his plas now only includes the english test series due to the lack of preparation time.

Hopefully this foolish idea will be gone by the time the Rugby Championship comes up.

We need an evolution in SA rugby, not stagnating.

Let me ask you this do you want the springboks to go to war vs the aussies ,kiwis and all blacks with a bunch of new guys who will get the smacking off their lives or with a mixture of experienced players and new guys??

I want a mixture of experience and youth, what I don't want are the experienced players that wll limit our evolution to the new laws.

I was happy when John Smit , Victor Matfield, Bakkies Botha and Fourie left.

Why do you ask. Becuase they were the players refusing to accpet a new game plan.

You can argue as much as you want, the reality is SA rugby have stagnated by virtue of not accepting the fact that whilst earning the right to go wide is good and the way to go, you need less predictability.

You will see when Fourie du Preez and Morne steyn is our half back pairing, we will have no variable attacking nous.

Add JDV in at 12, and we are proverbially F@#$d.

We need to realise that direct running, the usual 9, 10, 12, 14 pass and up and unders are not enough anymore.

We need a combination of a Hougaard, Goosen/Lambie, Frans Steyn that will run at angles, snipe into gaps, create offloads and provide our wings ball in space.

If you look at the most likely back line Meyer is going to select if Fourie du Preez is going to play, then the ball will once again follow the same pattern as last year.

These are the players I don't want to see in a bok jumper anymore.

Fourie du Preez - lost his quality after his shoulder operation in 2009 and totally predictable.
Morne Steyn - unless he moves to 15, he is predictable and one dimensional, his tacticle kicking can become very pooor and his decision making ability is pretty poor at times.
JDV - doesn't ever pass
Meisiekind - doesn't ever pass.
Zane Kirchner - doesn't ever pass.

We have a tradition where the ball doesn't do the work. It is time we start playing rugby to win.

You're being very unfair , Du Preez missed 2010 , played half of super rugby then was rested for the World cup . The Wales game was his first in months yet people expected to light up the scoreboard.

As for Zane Kirchner you're again judging him from the past, he's got the most try assists in super rugby today so if thts not passing and creating chances for his wingers i dont know what is . Springbok fans are so fickle its scary

Bullsbok, I say this with all due respect, your Bulls jumper is making you biased.

Zane Kirchner may have some try assists (I would like to see those stats) but he has a mentality of not looking outside him.

As for Fourie du Preez, he played the super XV in 2011. So the Tri ations wasn't his first match.

Bullsbk, let me ask you a question.

What game plan so you beleive will put springbok rugby on top again?

And which players do you believe will be able to do that?

As an outsider I have to agree with Biltong on this one.

SA Rugby needs to move forwards. Trying to bring Matfield out of retirement and then offering the captaincy to Du Preez who has retired from international rugby and gone to Japan is just madness and will stop any progression.

You have Pienaar and Hougaard who are both already internationals and quality players. You need to move forward with one of them as your 9. You guys have some seriously frightening young players coming through and you need to start using them now. If you do, you will be favourites for RWC2015. If not it will be more of the same, and no trophies in the cupboard.

When last i saw Ruan Pienaar in a Bok jersey i hoped that was it , he was crap last year. @Biltong http://livescores.smh.com.au/rugby/super15/player-stats.html?refresh=1334109195923 . Most try assists for Zane Kirchner who i think has been the most consistent bull this year . Again i ask you , if not FDP then who should captain the boks for June.

Schalk and Juan out with injury. Spies not the best leader, you dont like the idea of Keegan Daniel in the bok 8 jersey, Jean De villiers is the best bet , but you are of the opinion JDV shouldnt start at 12 (i agree)

So who ??

I'll answer you now, but don't forget to answer my previous questions.

Let's start with the most likely starters.

Beast, Bismarck, Jannie, Bekker, Juandre Kruger, Eben Etzebeth, Brussouw, Spies, Francois Hougaard (ignoring Fourie), Habana, Pietersen, Frans Steyn

The injured.
Burger, Smith.

The newbies.
Coenie, Marcel Coetzee, Lambie,

My automatic choice would be Burger when he returns, so you need a caretaker captain.

The only one with experience as captain is Spies. Unless you go for Bekker who is an experienced player, but my choice will be someone who is gutsy, young and guaranteed to be there for some time.

You may laugh, I'll take Hougaard.

The reason apart from my obvious problem with him beinh of the old guard, is that du Preez was a reluctant captain for the Bulls before, and hated it, and ontop of that didn't inspire his team, he needs a front man to do the communication with his team.

Biltong we seem to be on different pages . I'm not giving my personal view im just predicting what Meyer will do having supported his team ever since i can remember . Meyer is not the run and gun adventurous type we both know that. He makes a plan and sticks to it . He already has a plan of phasing out the oldies and bringing in the newbies and he's not going to chuck out a young team from the word go imo.

Du Preez obviously learnt from that 08 season or he wouldnt have agreed to come now would he? If he was reluctant to lead the Bulls he wouldnt come back specifically to lead the Boks .In any case its 3 games not a season .

Personally i'd like to see this sort of lineup

Beast
Bissy
Jannie
Eztebeth
Bekker
Coetzee
Brussow
Daniel (Vice Captain)
Hougaard
Morne
Aplon
Steyn
Jdv (Captain)
Piertesen
Lambie

We'd have the balanced loose trio , fetcher, The hardworking blindside and the Athletic 8 . Then a fiery 9 , Tactical 10 ,creative 12 Strike Running 13 . An elusive winger at 11 with a reliable defensive 14 and finally Creative fullback but alas

I would replace Daniel, he is too stingy, if it is between him and Spies, I'll choose spies, otherwise if you want an athletic 8, then you might as well go with Kankowski.

Problem with all of them is England will bring a very physical loose trio, so you need more than just Coetzee as a bruizer.

Add Alberts then, or Jean deysel on the bench if needed.

Otherwise I'll be ok if that is the team selected.

biltongbek wrote:I would replace Daniel, he is too stingy, if it is between him and Spies, I'll choose spies, otherwise if you want an athletic 8, then you might as well go with Kankowski.

Problem with all of them is England will bring a very physical loose trio, so you need more than just Coetzee as a bruizer.

Add Alberts then, or Jean deysel on the bench if needed.

Otherwise I'll be ok if that is the team selected.

I agree, you're going to need another bruizer in your backrow. Expect an England backrow of Haskell, Robshaw and Morgan for the majority of the tests.

Bullsbok wrote:When last i saw Ruan Pienaar in a Bok jersey i hoped that was it , he was crap last year.

Pienaer has been outstanding in an Ulster shirt and I would say is mentally stronger than when he arrives.

One of the reasons for this is he has played 95% of his rugby at 9 instead of being shunted all round the pitch between 9,10 and 15. SA shoudl do the same and they will get a return.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:When last i saw Ruan Pienaar in a Bok jersey i hoped that was it , he was crap last year.

Pienaer has been outstanding in an Ulster shirt and I would say is mentally stronger than when he arrives.

One of the reasons for this is he has played 95% of his rugby at 9 instead of being shunted all round the pitch between 9,10 and 15. SA shoudl do the same and they will get a return.

I agree

Frans Styen got shunted around the bok backline did he crack and produce crap games? No he took the chances offered and made a point to claim the 12 jersey for his own .

Not everyone is Frans Steyn.

Ruan Pienaar has never had a fair shot at scrumhalf, there was always a Fourie du Preez who was first choice.

biltongbek wrote:I would replace Daniel, he is too stingy, if it is between him and Spies, I'll choose spies, otherwise if you want an athletic 8, then you might as well go with Kankowski.

Problem with all of them is England will bring a very physical loose trio, so you need more than just Coetzee as a bruizer.

Add Alberts then, or Jean deysel on the bench if needed.

Otherwise I'll be ok if that is the team selected.

Of all your loose-forwards, I have to say Daniel is the one i'd most like to see line-up against us. He seems to be very 'active' without having much impact. Awesome workrate but looks a notch down physically and athletically on Spies, Kankowski etc. I actually think SA could do with someone like Alberts at 8. A massive bruiser who can suck in defenders.

I think teams need 2 genuine carriers in the back-row, i think neither Brussow or Daniel fit the bill.

Obviously havent watched Daniels play. He's the sharks biggest ball carrier and me makes much much more meters with ball in hand than any loosie in south africa . He might not pass as much as you'd like but his dynamism with ball in hand cannot be questioned.Unlike other saffa loosies he doesnt run into contact he runs into gaps

Watching Bismarck vs the Stormers right now i'm convinced he might just nullify any reason to have Brussow in the team. He fetches jsut as much and with Brussow out theres space for a big loosie

Bullsbok wrote:Watching Bismarck vs the Stormers right now i'm convinced he might just nullify any reason to have Brussow in the team. He fetches jsut as much and with Brussow out theres space for a big loosie

On that I fully agree with you. I don't believe fetcher as specialists are necessary anymore.

Hood83 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:I would replace Daniel, he is too stingy, if it is between him and Spies, I'll choose spies, otherwise if you want an athletic 8, then you might as well go with Kankowski.

Problem with all of them is England will bring a very physical loose trio, so you need more than just Coetzee as a bruizer.

Add Alberts then, or Jean deysel on the bench if needed.

Otherwise I'll be ok if that is the team selected.

Of all your loose-forwards, I have to say Daniel is the one i'd most like to see line-up against us. He seems to be very 'active' without having much impact. Awesome workrate but looks a notch down physically and athletically on Spies, Kankowski etc. I actually think SA could do with someone like Alberts at 8. A massive bruiser who can suck in defenders.

I think teams need 2 genuine carriers in the back-row, i think neither Brussow or Daniel fit the bill.

+1

I sncerely hope FA is watching JP Pietersen in this match.

Sharks pack looking very good in this one. Front row must be nailed on for the test series.

Bullsbok wrote:Obviously havent watched Daniels play. He's the sharks biggest ball carrier and me makes much much more meters with ball in hand than any loosie in south africa . He might not pass as much as you'd like but his dynamism with ball in hand cannot be questioned.Unlike other saffa loosies he doesnt run into contact he runs into gaps

Fair enough, can't say i've seen loads of him, but what I have seen left me pretty underwhelmed. Can accept that this may be a misperception though. I think sometimes yards made going over someone look more impressive than those gained by targeting space, and I think I'm used to seeing SA players go over people.

Targeting space is exactly what SA (and England) need to do more in my mind, but I think at international level it doesn't always come without those crashing it up at first. Anyway, as I say, i'd personally rather you played Daniel than Alberts.

biltongbek wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:Watching Bismarck vs the Stormers right now i'm convinced he might just nullify any reason to have Brussow in the team. He fetches jsut as much and with Brussow out theres space for a big loosie

On that I fully agree with you. I don't believe fetcher as specialists are necessary anymore.

I think this is a really interesting point and was thinking about this yesterday. Over the 6Ns one of England's better players at the breakdown (and they were all pretty average) was Dan Cole. I know he started in the back-row, but one of the comments was that Lancaster and many other coaches are encouraging all their forwards to improve in this area.

If you think about it, props should be perfectly placed to adopt this role - short, squat, powerful and with a low-centre of gravity. In the past lack of mobility probably stopped them getting to the breakdown, but with the conditioning they get now, it seems like this could be a greater trend in union. Props as breakdown specialists.

I suppose the other issue that may prevent this is the other specialist areas they may need to focus on like the scrum, but i can't see this being anything but a growing phenomena.

Hood83 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:Watching Bismarck vs the Stormers right now i'm convinced he might just nullify any reason to have Brussow in the team. He fetches jsut as much and with Brussow out theres space for a big loosie

On that I fully agree with you. I don't believe fetcher as specialists are necessary anymore.

I think this is a really interesting point and was thinking about this yesterday. Over the 6Ns one of England's better players at the breakdown (and they were all pretty average) was Dan Cole. I know he started in the back-row, but one of the comments was that Lancaster and many other coaches are encouraging all their forwards to improve in this area.

If you think about it, props should be perfectly placed to adopt this role - short, squat, powerful and with a low-centre of gravity. In the past lack of mobility probably stopped them getting to the breakdown, but with the conditioning they get now, it seems like this could be a greater trend in union. Props as breakdown specialists.

I suppose the other issue that may prevent this is the other specialist areas they may need to focus on like the scrum, but i can't see this being anything but a growing phenomena.

Hood, Bismarck du Plessis is probably the best fetcher at the Sharks, Coenie Oosthuizen as a prop is the leading the turnovers at the Cheetahs.

The role of the fetcher is now the task of who ever arrives first at the ruck, no longer the open side flanker's

And then you wonder why i prefer Aplon and Mvovo over piertesen and Habana ???

biltongbek wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:Watching Bismarck vs the Stormers right now i'm convinced he might just nullify any reason to have Brussow in the team. He fetches jsut as much and with Brussow out theres space for a big loosie

On that I fully agree with you. I don't believe fetcher as specialists are necessary anymore.

I think this is a really interesting point and was thinking about this yesterday. Over the 6Ns one of England's better players at the breakdown (and they were all pretty average) was Dan Cole. I know he started in the back-row, but one of the comments was that Lancaster and many other coaches are encouraging all their forwards to improve in this area.

If you think about it, props should be perfectly placed to adopt this role - short, squat, powerful and with a low-centre of gravity. In the past lack of mobility probably stopped them getting to the breakdown, but with the conditioning they get now, it seems like this could be a greater trend in union. Props as breakdown specialists.

I suppose the other issue that may prevent this is the other specialist areas they may need to focus on like the scrum, but i can't see this being anything but a growing phenomena.

Hood, Bismarck du Plessis is probably the best fetcher at the Sharks, Coenie Oosthuizen as a prop is the leading the turnovers at the Cheetahs.

The role of the fetcher is now the task of who ever arrives first at the ruck, no longer the open side flanker's

Seems that way to me. So does this diminish the need for Henrich?

Well Habana got no ball, Pietersen does the hard work and Mvovo gets the ball out wide.

I like Mvovo, he is a great finisher, and have no problem with any of these four to be honest, but Mvovo is a classic 11, he doesnt look for much work outside of his usual duties.

Hood83 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:Watching Bismarck vs the Stormers right now i'm convinced he might just nullify any reason to have Brussow in the team. He fetches jsut as much and with Brussow out theres space for a big loosie

On that I fully agree with you. I don't believe fetcher as specialists are necessary anymore.

I think this is a really interesting point and was thinking about this yesterday. Over the 6Ns one of England's better players at the breakdown (and they were all pretty average) was Dan Cole. I know he started in the back-row, but one of the comments was that Lancaster and many other coaches are encouraging all their forwards to improve in this area.

If you think about it, props should be perfectly placed to adopt this role - short, squat, powerful and with a low-centre of gravity. In the past lack of mobility probably stopped them getting to the breakdown, but with the conditioning they get now, it seems like this could be a greater trend in union. Props as breakdown specialists.

I suppose the other issue that may prevent this is the other specialist areas they may need to focus on like the scrum, but i can't see this being anything but a growing phenomena.

Hood, Bismarck du Plessis is probably the best fetcher at the Sharks, Coenie Oosthuizen as a prop is the leading the turnovers at the Cheetahs.

The role of the fetcher is now the task of who ever arrives first at the ruck, no longer the open side flanker's

Seems that way to me. So does this diminish the need for Henrich?

In my view yes, don;t know if you just watched the Sharks vs stormers match, but Alberts got man of the match, Marcell coetzee was immense, even daniel had a good game.

After watching this game my choices I would cement in for now is.

1. Beast
2. Bismarck
3. Jannie
4. etzebeth
5 Jandre Kruger
6. Coetzee
7. Alberts
8.
9. Hougaard
10. ----------------Would want Lambie but I know Morne Steyn will be there.
11.
12. Frans steyn
13.
14. JP Pietersen
15. Patrick Lambie

Hallelujah Biltong has seen the light,that the senior players were as guilty as PDV
for the Boks gradual regrssion.Heynke Meyer took the Bulls to 3-S 14 titles,but PDV took them to only one 3N title.Super Rugby does not equate to 3Ns form,the Bulls Coaches etc .were a given for Meyer.I expect the Boks to play there traditional style strong pack,defence,kicking attack plus there great Goakl kickers.That has been there successful style since about 1949.