Springboks should field relatively young team vs the English.

First topic message reminder :

It has been confirmed by Heyneke Meyer that Victor Matfield will not return to Springbok rugby, but might be involved as a line out advisor. After Fourie du Preez and Jaque Fourie who both play rugby in Japan have confirmed they will not be available, and considering Juan Smit, Schalk Burger are both injured, and John Smit retired alongside Gurthro Steenkamp, Bakkies Botha and Danie Rossouw, that means nine regulars are not available for the English test series.

Out.

John Smit - retired
Bakkies Botha - France
Vicki Matfield - Retired
Fourie du Preez - Retired
Jaque Fourie - Japan, might as well be retired from international rugby.
Juan Smit - long term injury
Schalk Buger - long term injury (might be available for Four nations)
Gurthro Steenkamp - retired
Danie Rossouw - Retired


Now we just need to get rid of Morne.

Alan I have always seen the light, I just dont see the use of a coach that cannot stand by his convictions and cannot get rid of the old guard.

The players don't pick themselves, the coach does. The players should not dictate the game plan, the coach should.

Bullsbok wrote:When last i saw Ruan Pienaar in a Bok jersey i hoped that was it , he was crap last year. @Biltong http://livescores.smh.com.au/rugby/super15/player-stats.html?refresh=1334109195923 . Most try assists for Zane Kirchner who i think has been the most consistent bull this year . Again i ask you , if not FDP then who should captain the boks for June.

Schalk and Juan out with injury. Spies not the best leader, you dont like the idea of Keegan Daniel in the bok 8 jersey, Jean De villiers is the best bet , but you are of the opinion JDV shouldnt start at 12 (i agree)

So who ??

I'll have to step in here, how was Pienaar crap last year?? Not watched Ulster play, no?

Biltong THAT is what precisely I said,PDV should have dumped them then if he lost.At Least he had tried to put things right,so PDV is NOT as bad as painted.

How is he not alan, I understand you want to defend him, bit on what basis.

His win rate went from 70% in his first year, down every year from there, and when the breakdown law changed, he barely won 50% of his matches there after, he ended on 62 odd % courtesy of the first two years when the kick and chase still worked.

He brought nothing new to the boks, there was no adapting to the new laws, no new gameplan, nothing.

How can you not see it?

There was an informative article that I read (it was in Sports Illustrated I think) deatiling the problems of Heyneke Meyer having to inaugurate his Bok coaching tenure with only a five-day preparation period. The article argued quite convincingly that it would be right for him to pick key positions from Bulls players who are familiar with him so that at least he wouldn't have to start from scratch with them. While this may be the wise path for the England tests, I hope that the new blood (Lambie/Hougaard etc) gets a look in soon...

Regarding Daniels: I think he has improved a lot this season, he does a lot of work, and makes a lot of crucial line-breaks, and in the Shakrs set up he is not needed to be the big-bruiser kind of guy, because Bismark and the Beast do all of that sort of stuff (and very well at that...opposition teams are having to commit several players each time they tackle Bismark, otherwise he just bounces them!)

Regarding the Bok coaching debate, above, there is something in the SA set-up that, without fail, turns pleasant, bright coaches into paranoid nervous-wrecks who say and do bizarre things. It happened to PdV (although he was a little bizarre to begin with), White, Straueli...etc,etc. The powers that be should really look into this.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:When last i saw Ruan Pienaar in a Bok jersey i hoped that was it , he was crap last year. @Biltong http://livescores.smh.com.au/rugby/super15/player-stats.html?refresh=1334109195923 . Most try assists for Zane Kirchner who i think has been the most consistent bull this year . Again i ask you , if not FDP then who should captain the boks for June.

Schalk and Juan out with injury. Spies not the best leader, you dont like the idea of Keegan Daniel in the bok 8 jersey, Jean De villiers is the best bet , but you are of the opinion JDV shouldnt start at 12 (i agree)

So who ??

I'll have to step in here, how was Pienaar crap last year?? Not watched Ulster play, no?

Probably not man! A lot of saffers don't put much store in the form of European club rugby, which they consider to be a lower standard. If we wanted to change their minds we'd have to do something radical, like consistently beat them or at least even the record out a bit. Respect in the SH is earned the hard way. And since our clubs don't compete with SH sides it would be our national sides that would shoulder that burden. Fat chance, Mr. Kidney. Our national side is coached at a lower level than any of our provinces but thats another story for another thread...

For me, I'm quietly hoping they continue to ignore the fine form of Ruan Pienaar up north. Just take Fourie Du Preez out of retirement, thats it... a full pre-season with Ulster is just the ticket for Ruan Pienaar as far as I'm concerned!

Biltong ,IF PDV had the guts to dump his senior players,he could have adapted his style maybe with success.With respect 2010 the Boks should won at least
2 matches 1each against Nz and Oz. Water under the bridge.if Meyer is bluffing
and going for a more fluid game.THAT would be a real surprise.

Notch wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:When last i saw Ruan Pienaar in a Bok jersey i hoped that was it , he was crap last year. @Biltong http://livescores.smh.com.au/rugby/super15/player-stats.html?refresh=1334109195923 . Most try assists for Zane Kirchner who i think has been the most consistent bull this year . Again i ask you , if not FDP then who should captain the boks for June.

Schalk and Juan out with injury. Spies not the best leader, you dont like the idea of Keegan Daniel in the bok 8 jersey, Jean De villiers is the best bet , but you are of the opinion JDV shouldnt start at 12 (i agree)

So who ??

I'll have to step in here, how was Pienaar crap last year?? Not watched Ulster play, no?

Probably not man! A lot of saffers don't put much store in the form of European club rugby, which they consider to be a lower standard. If we wanted to change their minds we'd have to do something radical, like consistently beat them or at least even the record out a bit. Respect in the SH is earned the hard way. And since our clubs don't compete with SH sides it would be our national sides that would shoulder that burden. Fat chance, Mr. Kidney. Our national side is coached at a lower level than any of our provinces but thats another story for another thread...

For me, I'm quietly hoping they continue to ignore the fine form of Ruan Pienaar up north. Just take Fourie Du Preez out of retirement, thats it... a full pre-season with Ulster is just the ticket for Ruan Pienaar as far as I'm concerned!

Its not that i dont think HC form is good enough , i think its on par with Super rugby form . Just because you're brilliant at either of the two provincial levels doesnt make you a shoe in for test level. Ruan pienaar has consistently failed to cement a place in the test side. And dont go giving me that shunted from position to position story , everyone does it . James O connor is a brilliant back , have you heard about him complaining when they moved him about early in his career? No he made Robbie deans see he's invaluable and he's now got himself a starting jersey when he's with the wallabies . Same with Hougaard he played 11, 14 and even a game at 13 because he convinced his coaches tht he has to be on the park at all times.Now he's been given the starting 9 bulls jersey and i'll bet my left testical come four nations he'll be starting springbok 9 for good.

Now Ruan pienaar , again a brilliant player but he didnt take his chances. since 2007 he's failed to shine consistently to guarantee a starting spot. He was never going to replace Du Preez from 07 - 09 . So pdv gave him a clear shot at the 10 jersey. And he mucked it up during the lions (enter morne) Pienaar opted to settle for 9 which is his right yes but Du Preez was better and Hougie being groomed as his sucessor . And instead of fighting it out with Hougaard he went to Ireland . He may be brilliant now but Meyer wont pick him over Hougaard and seeing as Pienaar is highly unlikely to settle for second best he seems pretty much screwed on the international scene imo.

And just in case you're planning on bringing up another famous Shark back..Steyn i'll say this . Steyn has proved over the years that he's invaluable to the Springbok cause. PDV asked him to play 15 , he did and shone, asked to play 13 he did and during the World Cup he played 15 and 12 and guaranteed himself a jersey

biltongbek wrote:

Out.

John Smit - retired
Bakkies Botha - France
Vicki Matfield - Retired
Fourie du Preez - Retired
Jaque Fourie - Japan, might as well be retired from international rugby.
Juan Smit - long term injury
Schalk Buger - long term injury (might be available for Four nations)
Gurthro Steenkamp - retired
Danie Rossouw - Retired


Now we just need to get rid of Morne.

When looking at that list of outs I still think going with Steyn is suicide.

SA will not dominate in their usual areas up front so they'll need more strings to their bow. A Bulls basis wont be enough at the next level. Steyn needs a dominating pack to be effective and this year they'll do well to be competitive but certainly wont dominate in the way they are used to, particularly in the lineouts where Matfield reigned supreme.

Someone should already be working on a proper attack plan (do they even have an attack coach?) or they'll find the points dry up. JDV MUST be in there because of the loss of experience in the forwards and for his defence. He's just going to have to adapt to a more running game but someones got to organise the new guys.

Talking of FDP I can't understand. Was generally poor all last year and is chasing the money in Japan. Mind boggles to think that that is acceptable.

What is happening judging by the Reffing in Super Rugby,tries will be harder to come by.Goals will like it or not be the deciding factor,.The Boks could field Morne Steyn,Earl Rose.Peter Grant or Patrick Lambie at 10. There goal kicking
abilities are all as good as any likely opponet and 3 out of 4 have attacking abilities too.I note Franny Steyn is not in the mix,YET but come 4Ns I consider him a certainty.Hougaard is more likely starter than FDP,will the squad be pared down to 30 for England as the all Blacks will be for Ireland?

emack2 wrote:What is happening judging by the Reffing in Super Rugby,tries will be harder to come by.Goals will like it or not be the deciding factor,.The Boks could field Morne Steyn,Earl Rose.Peter Grant or Patrick Lambie at 10. There goal kicking
abilities are all as good as any likely opponet and 3 out of 4 have attacking abilities too.I note Franny Steyn is not in the mix,YET but come 4Ns I consider him a certainty.Hougaard is more likely starter than FDP,will the squad be pared down to 30 for England as the all Blacks will be for Ireland?

Dunno Alan.
Theres a huge loss of leadership in those names and tries will come if theres even a small gap in the overal qualities of both teams. The new guys dont carry the intimidation factor of those before them and where the boks could rely on Smit, Matfield etc to reign them in at crucial moments who will do it now?

Leadership across the park is greatly underated these days and i think that will hit SA the hardest initially.

Taylorman wrote:

emack2 wrote:What is happening judging by the Reffing in Super Rugby,tries will be harder to come by.Goals will like it or not be the deciding factor,.The Boks could field Morne Steyn,Earl Rose.Peter Grant or Patrick Lambie at 10. There goal kicking
abilities are all as good as any likely opponet and 3 out of 4 have attacking abilities too.I note Franny Steyn is not in the mix,YET but come 4Ns I consider him a certainty.Hougaard is more likely starter than FDP,will the squad be pared down to 30 for England as the all Blacks will be for Ireland?

Dunno Alan.
Theres a huge loss of leadership in those names and tries will come if theres even a small gap in the overal qualities of both teams. The new guys dont carry the intimidation factor of those before them and where the boks could rely on Smit, Matfield etc to reign them in at crucial moments who will do it now?

Leadership across the park is greatly underated these days and i think that will hit SA the hardest initially.

what the boks lose in leadership they make up for with better rugby players. Victor , Smit , were good leaders but not the best in their positions anymore . So while the boks wont have that kinda leadership but the thought of Bismarck the battleship playing 80min instead of 40 will scare even rthe all blacks!

Yes thats true BullsBok- absolutely agree with that. Its just the transition from a skillset of heavily experienced players with ruthless cunning and guile to suddenly be replaced by a group of new fired up spring chickens from one test to the next could leave them out of sorts.

Its not as bad as I've described obviously and often enthusiasm can overcome experience. The risk is that the mix probably isnt right and under pdv those guys exiting largely ran the show both on and off the field.

So its good thayll have a coach that will take more of a lead but he's new to the test arena as well making your JDV's (and need I say it Steyn/e/s etc critical in the rebuild.

For that reason Meyer will be forced to take a conservative stance with Steyn at 10 when he should perhaps be looking to experiment more of a 15 man approach perhaps because they could need that more with a less competitive pack.

An interesting dilemma...

Pienaer has been added to the squad

3 scrumhalfs Fourie Hougaard and Pienaar?well this is interesting

Maybe things aren't progressing with fourie?

To be honest i'd prefer fourie than Ruan . Pienaar's confidence is just too shaky for mt liking

Honestly, you haven't seen him recently for Ulster..

he's always been a big time performer for his club. He was awesome at the sharks as wel.

Yeah, but Fourie has been playing in Japan. Why would you take him over a HEC finalist? Probably runner up for HEC player of the year..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, but Fourie has been playing in Japan. Why would you take him over a HEC finalist? Probably runner up for HEC player of the year..

Fourie and Morne Steyn make a much better temporary partnership otherwise hougaard will start and everyone will rejoice. And just fyi one seasson in the Japan leagues doesnt erase years of fouries class.

Frans Steyn back with Sharks from first July for 3years,predictable.Overseas
based players have not been a success in the past but they are facing.An England side in the re building phase too,Boks at Home tho are usually a sound bet.

F Steyn deserves to be there. Showed last year he could play overseas and to a good standard for the Boks.

Agree with the bet though. Despite the losses in leadership and lineouts England might find them too much.

But if Meyer sticks with M Steyn, they'll be left reeling during the 4N

Frans Steyn when he came back for the 3Ns while based in Europe,was overweight.Unfit and plain ordinary.ONly when he slimmed down for the RWC did he look his real self[before injury].ALL teams will have to adapt to the new Ref Rulings and it will .Suit the Boks likely Game plan very well with emphasis on defence and goalkicking.

Yes Steyn fit in well but it took him a year to realise the effort required, plus, it was a world cup year- hence the motivation- money players know they're worth more on the market with a good recent world cup behind them

I'm not so confident FDP, who in Japan chasing the bucks after what was a dismal year for him last year, is only recently being asked to lead the side.

In a non world cup year what sort of preparation is that for a leading or top 3 rugby nations captain to be? 2 weeks before an English tour suddenly he's the Bok captain....please!

Jesus Christ , he's a seasoned international . 7 months ago he was playing top flight rugby , and this year he's obviously been keeping fit in the quicker japan leagues . So yes 60 odd caps for the springboks and over 100 caps for the Bulls are more than enough for him to be springbok captain for 3 damned games!!!

Time will tell Bullsbok. But for Meyer not to know his captain until now's a bit poor no matter who he is. Any potential Bok captain should have been playing sxv this year at least to get a feel for the players he's likely to lead.

And 7 months ago he was nowhere near what he was. How much better will he be for his Japan experience?

So I guess its all about standards. FDP made a choice earlier in the year- better money, easier rugby. If thats the criteria that qualifies for the Bok captaincy then someone is setting very low standards for such high expectations. Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

But we'll see...

Taylorman wrote:Time will tell Bullsbok. But for Meyer not to know his captain until now's a bit poor no matter who he is. Any potential Bok captain should have been playing sxv this year at least to get a feel for the players he's likely to lead.

And 7 months ago he was nowhere near what he was. How much better will he be for his Japan experience?

So I guess its all about standards. PDV made a choice earlier in the year- better money, easier rugby. If thats the criteria that qualifies for the Bok captaincy then someone is setting very low standards for such high expectations. Can't have it both ways I'm afraid.

But we'll see...

Schalk was earmarked to be Bok captain , he got injured . Thats hardly Meyers fault now is it? Besides he needs someone he knows well to lead seeing as he';s only got one week with the boks before the first test. Is he supposed to chuck out a new captain one week before a test match or go with a season vet who knows Meyer Gameplans in and out ?

Fair enough. I'd have guessed Schaulk but didnt know that. He's REALLY gonna be missed...

Still think as a player at tests he'll be struggling with the quicker more varied game. Maybe not the tour but the 4N.

As you can see the tensions building all round for these tours so thats gotta be good. Lot of passion around all over the globe...love it!

Taylorman wrote:Fair enough. I'd have guessed Schaulk but didnt know that. He's REALLY gonna be missed...

Still think as a player at tests he'll be struggling with the quicker more varied game. Maybe not the tour but the 4N.

As you can see the tensions building all round for these tours so thats gotta be good. Lot of passion around all over the globe...love it!

On that front we can both agree

Bullsbok wrote:Jesus Christ , he's a seasoned international . 7 months ago he was playing top flight rugby , and this year he's obviously been keeping fit in the quicker japan leagues . So yes 60 odd caps for the springboks and over 100 caps for the Bulls are more than enough for him to be springbok captain for 3 damned games!!!

Bullsbok, how many times did we complain PDV in his time selected players on reputation?

How many times did we call for the haeds of John Smit, Bryan Habana, Butch James etc?

Now you are satisfied that Meyer calls up Fourie du Preez on reputation?

The top flight rugby you are talking about was a Fourie du Preez who was but a shadow of himself.

Perhaps the "soft" rugby in Japan will have aided his return to form, but who knows?

Andries Bekker is also out for the english test series, lower back strain.

biltongbek wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:Jesus Christ , he's a seasoned international . 7 months ago he was playing top flight rugby , and this year he's obviously been keeping fit in the quicker japan leagues . So yes 60 odd caps for the springboks and over 100 caps for the Bulls are more than enough for him to be springbok captain for 3 damned games!!!

Bullsbok, how many times did we complain PDV in his time selected players on reputation?

How many times did we call for the haeds of John Smit, Bryan Habana, Butch James etc?

Now you are satisfied that Meyer calls up Fourie du Preez on reputation?

The top flight rugby you are talking about was a Fourie du Preez who was but a shadow of himself.

Perhaps the "soft" rugby in Japan will have aided his return to form, but who knows?

Bitlong how manyt times must i repeat myself ITS 3 GAMES he didnt say im calling him up permantly , its the June series for crying out loud.

How does that differ from the principle of taking a player to the world cup on reputation?

3 games might become another 6 in the Rugby Championship.

But any way, it seems we aren't going to agree on much anyway.

Let's just agree to disagree, you beleive in Heyneke Meyer and I reserve the right to question his intentions and methodologies.

Oh yeah, my gun is bigger.

biltongbek wrote:Andries Bekker is also out for the english test series, lower back strain.

I don't think losing Bekker is that big a loss for South Africa. I expect (although I may be wrong) Kruger and Etzebeth to start at lock for the Boks.

2 new caps at lock unlikely??? Given their limited time together I now expect Flip and Kruger to get the nod with Etzebeth on the bench.

Had Bekker been fit I would have fancied Bekker & Etzebeth to start.

biltongbek wrote:Oh yeah, my gun is bigger.

*cough* *cough* - England vs Wales threads ey?