Appreciating Rocky

First topic message reminder :

Morning

Since this fighter is one of the most beloved/underrated/overrated on the board I'd like to take an opportunity, once and for all , to memorialise some thoughts on him.

From what I've read and learned about Rocky Marciano over the many years in the beginning he was an acquired taste; it took a long time. But, even the sceptics soon become Marciano believers. He apparently was clumsier in sparring than many could imagine a ham-‘n’-egger against most half-decent boxers in the gym wearing his 16-ounce gloves that looked like the fluffy pillows from Debenhams the wife keeps buying for some reason each week. I see the flaws what the doubters see on tape don't get me wrong, but every guy who looked like they boxed rings around him, the ones who pinned his ears back, the ones never missed him with jabs, came out of the ring looking like he was dropped from a 10-story building and landed flat-footed. Rocky's cuffing, pawing, mauling, grazing shots, flicks to the sides when he was tied-up on the inside, impacted them like they'd been bumped by a rhino. From ringside many reporters said when Rocky landed, the only evidence was an "OOPH!" grimace and quiver.

Rocky was ponderous. Fighters could see the punches. They weren't surprised; they were beat down, every sparring partner who looked sensational against him, said the same thing exiting the ring: "I hurt all over." The wonderkinds and Robinson-clones that watched Rocky in the gym or at the Garden and licked their lips at a future match thought of him like cancer: He could only happen to the other guy.

Off a stat sheet, any number of guys now would be favoured over him, but doing it in the ring proved it would be a sobering experience. The lads yesterday Jeff, Windy, Chris etc mentioned how Archie one of the toughest creatures on earth held Rocky in the highest esteem.

There are certain dimensions to his game, that are not immediately obvious, that quickly became apparent to anybody who shared a ring with him from Louis to Ali.

I cant remember who said "it hurt to bump into him", but they probably summed it up best. He could seemingly make an oponent hurt for every second of every round, and he was a lot more unpredictable than people think.

This is one fighter who definitely had the devil inside him.

I tend to rate him in the listings higher than most, Rocky is my number 3, not the most glamorous c.v I accept, however his undefeated feat and winning streak is yet to be replicated in any era at the heavyweights top level, that is proof to me thats how difficult it is.

Thanks and have a great day.

I find it hard to believe ther were more pros 60 years back. Someone posted earlier that there were no known registered pros outside of the western world in 1950.

You've just yourself to be on a wind up with that comment, leave the debating to those who know their talking about

Maccarinelli beating Marciano has to go down as the most ludicrous comment of all time

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Was it not Ali who said that if they had fought Marciano wouldn't have been able to hit him with a handful of rice.

Would anyone give Marciano a hope against modern HW's. I recon he'd struggle to be top 10 at CW. Maccarinelli would do him.

Swarmers are always difficult for boxers. The old adage is that swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers.

Marciano would slaughter any cruiserweight today.

Of course, with his short reach he'd have problems with Vitali, and maybe Wlad, but you couldn't write him off against the rest. Holyfield, lest we forget, was a natural cruiser who moved up, and so is Haye.

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:I find it hard to believe ther were more pros 60 years back. Someone posted earlier that there were no known registered pros outside of the western world in 1950.

We've had Filipino champs all the way back to 1923 when Pancho Villa took the flyweight crown.

As to the other, I've already said that I don't expect you to believe me, since we don't know each other. Best either Chris or I find that link and then you can read it for yourself.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Was it not Ali who said that if they had fought Marciano wouldn't have been able to hit him with a handful of rice.

Would anyone give Marciano a hope against modern HW's. I recon he'd struggle to be top 10 at CW. Maccarinelli would do him.

Swarmers are always difficult for boxers. The old adage is that swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers.

Marciano would slaughter any cruiserweight today.

Of course, with his short reach he'd have problems with Vitali, and maybe Wlad, but you couldn't write him off against the rest. Holyfield, lest we forget, was a natural cruiser who moved up, and so is Haye.

Never seen the K's up against anyone who fights like Marciano with his stamina and power to judge it by. Think Vit would do better than Wlad who I've always felt is a bit chinny. As for Haye the first time he gets caught by Rocky it's over.

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Was it not Ali who said that if they had fought Marciano wouldn't have been able to hit him with a handful of rice.

Would anyone give Marciano a hope against modern HW's. I recon he'd struggle to be top 10 at CW. Maccarinelli would do him.

prettyboy1304 wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Was it not Ali who said that if they had fought Marciano wouldn't have been able to hit him with a handful of rice.

Would anyone give Marciano a hope against modern HW's. I recon he'd struggle to be top 10 at CW. Maccarinelli would do him.

Swarmers are always difficult for boxers. The old adage is that swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers.

Marciano would slaughter any cruiserweight today.

Of course, with his short reach he'd have problems with Vitali, and maybe Wlad, but you couldn't write him off against the rest. Holyfield, lest we forget, was a natural cruiser who moved up, and so is Haye.

Never seen the K's up against anyone who fights like Marciano with his stamina and power to judge it by. Think Vit would do better than Wlad who I've always felt is a bit chinny.

Very true, Prettyboy.

Sam Peter is no Marciano.

HumanWindmill wrote:

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Was it not Ali who said that if they had fought Marciano wouldn't have been able to hit him with a handful of rice.

Would anyone give Marciano a hope against modern HW's. I recon he'd struggle to be top 10 at CW. Maccarinelli would do him.

Swarmers are always difficult for boxers. The old adage is that swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers.

Marciano would slaughter any cruiserweight today.

Of course, with his short reach he'd have problems with Vitali, and maybe Wlad, but you couldn't write him off against the rest. Holyfield, lest we forget, was a natural cruiser who moved up, and so is Haye.

Haye was able to get down to 200lbd due to improvements in diet which allowed him to maintain his strength as he boiled down. He also employed conditioners to ensure he entered the ring in prime shape.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Was it not Ali who said that if they had fought Marciano wouldn't have been able to hit him with a handful of rice.

Would anyone give Marciano a hope against modern HW's. I recon he'd struggle to be top 10 at CW. Maccarinelli would do him.

Swarmers are always difficult for boxers. The old adage is that swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers.

Marciano would slaughter any cruiserweight today.

Of course, with his short reach he'd have problems with Vitali, and maybe Wlad, but you couldn't write him off against the rest. Holyfield, lest we forget, was a natural cruiser who moved up, and so is Haye.

Haye was able to get down to 200lbd due to improvements in diet which allowed him to maintain his strength as he boiled down. He also employed conditioners to ensure he entered the ring in prime shape.

AZ are you saying Haye would beat Marciano?

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Was it not Ali who said that if they had fought Marciano wouldn't have been able to hit him with a handful of rice.

Would anyone give Marciano a hope against modern HW's. I recon he'd struggle to be top 10 at CW. Maccarinelli would do him.

Swarmers are always difficult for boxers. The old adage is that swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers.

Marciano would slaughter any cruiserweight today.

Of course, with his short reach he'd have problems with Vitali, and maybe Wlad, but you couldn't write him off against the rest. Holyfield, lest we forget, was a natural cruiser who moved up, and so is Haye.

Haye was able to get down to 200lbd due to improvements in diet which allowed him to maintain his strength as he boiled down. He also employed conditioners to ensure he entered the ring in prime shape.

Fair enough, az. I didn't realize that.

Holyfield, though, was a cruiser through and through. Smaller than Dempsey in most statistics, though an inch taller.

These improvements must have happened since 1995 then because Mclellan almost killed himself boiling down not to mention Duk Koo Kim.

Marciano weighed around 185 lbs. Joe Calzaghe walked to the ring not much less than that!!!

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Marciano weighed around 185 lbs. Joe Calzaghe walked to the ring not much less than that!!!

Jack Dempsey weighed 190lb. and slaughtered Jess Willard, 245lb.

Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

So you keep telling us but history doesn't conform with your opinion at all

The Mighty Atom wrote:These improvements must have happened since 1995 then because Mclellan almost killed himself boiling down not to mention Duk Koo Kim.

Repeated blows to the head does that regardless of weight issues. Mike Watson got injured in his first fight as SMW where weight was not an issue for him. He had to boil down to make MW.

I'd go so far to say that he took bigger punches against McCallum as a MW than in the fateful fight against Eubank.

The Mighty Atom wrote:So you keep telling us but history doesn't conform with your opinion at all

Were'nt you criticising RJJ's opposition and are now praising Rocky's opposition which was very poor at the very best.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

What on Earth are you talking about ? Of course, he was a swarmer.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

Jukebox Timebomb wrote:Was it not Ali who said that if they had fought Marciano wouldn't have been able to hit him with a handful of rice.

Would anyone give Marciano a hope against modern HW's. I recon he'd struggle to be top 10 at CW. Maccarinelli would do him.

Swarmers are always difficult for boxers. The old adage is that swarmers beat boxers, boxers beat sluggers and sluggers beat swarmers.

Marciano would slaughter any cruiserweight today.

Of course, with his short reach he'd have problems with Vitali, and maybe Wlad, but you couldn't write him off against the rest. Holyfield, lest we forget, was a natural cruiser who moved up, and so is Haye.

Haye was able to get down to 200lbd due to improvements in diet which allowed him to maintain his strength as he boiled down. He also employed conditioners to ensure he entered the ring in prime shape.

Fair enough, az. I didn't realize that.

Holyfield, though, was a cruiser through and through. Smaller than Dempsey in most statistics, though an inch taller.

For Evander see Evan Field. I'll say no more. 8)

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

What on Earth are you talking about ? Of course, he was a swarmer.

He was too crude to be any of those.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

Don't be a muppet. He was a swarmer. It was his style. Not entirely sure why you decry that?

And I'm sure you do like Ali's comment about rice - in the same way as most like Ali being doubled over by old man Rocky's body shot. And if Ali wouldn't have been hit by Rocky - why did Frazier - another swarmer deck him and beat 10 shades out of him in the fight of the century?

Of course. Frazier had evolved, Xmen style in those 10 years...

Moore, Louis, Walcott and Charles despite their age were still very good boxers and they all got taken out.

I could come up literally hundreds of occassions where a swarmer/brawler call them what you will beat a more conventionly skilled opponent

You should research why Mclellan was put into a coma before dismissing that opinion, both he and Kim had brain haemorhages caused by dehydration.

Here's the stuff about fewer registered pros. Its in "the arc of boxing"

In 1950 - there was 1 world champion to every 625 boxers

Today there's 1 world champion to every 70 pros.

http://www.badlefthook.com/2010/11/7/1799679/boxing-book-review-mike-silvers-arc-of-boxing

I'm working on trying to confirm the stats. I'll let you know when I do.

Which poster just said Maccarinelli would 'do' Marciano? Taxiiiiii!!! This thread has turned into a repetitive farcical wind-up.

oxring wrote:Here's the stuff about fewer registered pros. Its in "the arc of boxing"

In 1950 - there was 1 world champion to every 625 boxers

Today there's 1 world champion to every 70 pros.

http://www.badlefthook.com/2010/11/7/1799679/boxing-book-review-mike-silvers-arc-of-boxing

I'm working on trying to confirm the stats. I'll let you know when I do.

Would appreciate it, oxy.

I know I'm not imagining it.

Yeah, just opened that page. Says 5,000 fighters worldwide in the 50s.

I checked on 1st March 2011 and there were 16,638.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Moore, Louis, Walcott and Charles despite their age were still very good boxers and they all got taken out.

I could come up literally hundreds of occassions where a swarmer/brawler call them what you will beat a more conventionly skilled opponent

You should research why Mclellan was put into a coma before dismissing that opinion, both he and Kim had brain haemorhages caused by dehydration.

Its because of Louis's age that Rocky beat him.

I haven't dismissed anything about McLellan whatsoever. I stated a fact about repeated blows to the head and in boxing, its not only dehydration that causes severe injury as Mike Watson unfortunately found out.

The Arc of Boxing does not have international figures but since I'm home will re-produce a couple of paragraphs as they are instructive.

During the 20s and 30's approximately 8000 to 10000 professional boxers were licenced annually in the USA. In the 50's the number averaged betewn 5,000 and 6000. The latest figure (2006) shows approximately 2850. The number of shows for the US canada and Puerto Rico for that year was 906. That is the same as the total for New York in 1927

In the UK the post ar peak for number of shows was during 48-49 and reached 1,115. Over the past 45 years (!961-2006) average has been between 150-230

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

What on Earth are you talking about ? Of course, he was a swarmer.

He was too crude to be any of those.

Please, whoever it is typing this stuff, can you please leave Az's computer now, and go bring mummy or daddy to the keyboard? Preferably take your meds too. This is the problem I have Az: when you post silly things like that you lose ALL credibility.

rowley wrote:The Arc of Boxing does not have international figures but since I'm home will re-produce a couple of paragraphs as they are instructive.

During the 20s and 30's approximately 8000 to 10000 professional boxers were licenced annually in the USA. In the 50's the number averaged betewn 5,000 and 6000. The latest figure (2006) shows approximately 2850. The number of shows for the US canada and Puerto Rico for that year was 906. That is the same as the total for New York in 1927

In the UK the post ar peak for number of shows was during 48-49 and reached 1,115. Over the past 45 years (!961-2006) average has been between 150-230

Thanks, mate.

We need quite a few Dimitris to make up the numbers, then.

Scottrf wrote:Yeah, just opened that page. Says 5,000 fighters worldwide in the 50s.

I checked on 1st March 2011 and there were 16,638.

If we accept the 5,000 figure - that's 5000 for 8 titles = Title/625 boxers

Today we have 16,638 for 68 possible titles (excluding the WBA super/regular/diamond/interim/golden/milk monitor) belts = Title/244.7 boxers

IE - there are half as many fighters/title today as in 1950 - IF there were only 5,000 pros in 1950, which I very much doubt.

Check top of page 203 Jeff, says 5,000 boxers worldwide. There are 8,795 today in just the classic divisions, 16,638 overall.

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

Don't be a muppet. He was a swarmer. It was his style. Not entirely sure why you decry that?

And I'm sure you do like Ali's comment about rice - in the same way as most like Ali being doubled over by old man Rocky's body shot. And if Ali wouldn't have been hit by Rocky - why did Frazier - another swarmer deck him and beat 10 shades out of him in the fight of the century?

Of course. Frazier had evolved, Xmen style in those 10 years...

Ox. Please dont tell me that you believe Rocky would have stood a chance against Ali let alone the fight being competitive.

Rocky was 45+ when they sparred. No doubt Ali was going more thhan easy on him. And yes (again) whatever Rocky hit stays hit. I have never denied his strength, conditioning, punch power etc. They were phenomenal. I cast serious doubt on his skill. He was too crude to be classified as anything other than a fighter. He is without doubt the most unco-ordinated, unsophisticated, ugly, crude, ungainly manin the ring I have even seen. I'm suprised he had the cordination to climb through the ropes without tripping on his own feet.

And Frazier would have hammered him.

Boxers/title isn't as important a stat as boxers overall surely. Especially when you consider and a number get unified and a lot of the time there is one guy considered the standout in a division and the rest are aiming for a shot at him.

BALTIMORA wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

What on Earth are you talking about ? Of course, he was a swarmer.

He was too crude to be any of those.

Please, whoever it is typing this stuff, can you please leave Az's computer now, and go bring mummy or daddy to the keyboard? Preferably take your meds too. This is the problem I have Az: when you post silly things like that you lose ALL credibility.

No worries. I'll ask my 9 year old daughter to go to bed now. Be warned that when Az comes back the tone is lowered.

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

Don't be a muppet. He was a swarmer. It was his style. Not entirely sure why you decry that?

And I'm sure you do like Ali's comment about rice - in the same way as most like Ali being doubled over by old man Rocky's body shot. And if Ali wouldn't have been hit by Rocky - why did Frazier - another swarmer deck him and beat 10 shades out of him in the fight of the century?

Of course. Frazier had evolved, Xmen style in those 10 years...

Ox. Please dont tell me that you believe Rocky would have stood a chance against Ali let alone the fight being competitive.

Rocky was 45+ when they sparred. No doubt Ali was going more thhan easy on him. And yes (again) whatever Rocky hit stays hit. I have never denied his strength, conditioning, punch power etc. They were phenomenal. I cast serious doubt on his skill. He was too crude to be classified as anything other than a fighter. He is without doubt the most unco-ordinated, unsophisticated, ugly, crude, ungainly manin the ring I have even seen. I'm suprised he had the cordination to climb through the ropes without tripping on his own feet.

And Frazier would have hammered him.

Look, I love Ali, but Marciano had exactly the style to give him serious problems. Whenever I think of Ali's likely most difficult opponents I think of Tunney, ( similar to Ali but better text book skills, ) and Rocky, because Ali didn't have a real single shot kayo in his arsenal to keep Rocky off him.

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

Don't be a muppet. He was a swarmer. It was his style. Not entirely sure why you decry that?

And I'm sure you do like Ali's comment about rice - in the same way as most like Ali being doubled over by old man Rocky's body shot. And if Ali wouldn't have been hit by Rocky - why did Frazier - another swarmer deck him and beat 10 shades out of him in the fight of the century?

Of course. Frazier had evolved, Xmen style in those 10 years...

Ox. Please dont tell me that you believe Rocky would have stood a chance against Ali let alone the fight being competitive.

Rocky was 45+ when they sparred. No doubt Ali was going more thhan easy on him. And yes (again) whatever Rocky hit stays hit. I have never denied his strength, conditioning, punch power etc. They were phenomenal. I cast serious doubt on his skill. He was too crude to be classified as anything other than a fighter. He is without doubt the most unco-ordinated, unsophisticated, ugly, crude, ungainly manin the ring I have even seen. I'm suprised he had the cordination to climb through the ropes without tripping on his own feet.

And Frazier would have hammered him.

Look, I love Ali, but Marciano had exactly the style to give him serious problems. Whenever I think of Ali's likely most difficult opponents I think of Tunney, ( similar to Ali but better text book skills, ) and Rocky, because Ali didn't have a real single shot kayo in his arsenal to keep Rocky off him.

Rocky would have to get close to ali to hit him. Ali would tear him to shreds. Dont underestimate Ali's punch power either. Also the punches that do most damage are those you do not see.

azania wrote:Rocky would have to get close to ali to hit him. Ali would tear him to shreds. Dont underestimate Ali's punch power either. Also the punches that do most damage are those you do not see.

Of course, Marciano needs to get close, but Ali isn't going to have it all his way in keeping him at range. Marciano IS going to get close from time to time. Ali is favourite, right enough, but to suggest he just turns up and stages a shutout is naive.

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Haye was outweighed massively by Valuev but still won, very few heavyweights in history have the chin, power or stamina of Marciano not to mention his incredible strength considering his size.

Skill beats power most of the time. Rocky was thoroughly unskilled. The level of opposition he faced was incredibly poor.

Marciano was, essentially, a swarmer. It is swarmers who, stylistically, give boxers the biggest problems. Think Frazier v Ali and Basilio ( if you've heard of him, ) v Robinson.

Marciano, in addition to being a great swarmer, had a tremendous right hand and unbelievable reserves of stamina. If he hits you, he hurts you.

Rocky wasn't a swarmer, slugger or boxer. He just fought.

Are you suggesting boxing tag teams? Chair shots allowed?

Of course if he hit you it would hurt. He was a good puncher. Most decent boxers wouldn't be in the position to get hit by him. On the contrary, it would be Rocky getting hit before the ref stopped it. I like Ali's comment about rice.

Don't be a muppet. He was a swarmer. It was his style. Not entirely sure why you decry that?

And I'm sure you do like Ali's comment about rice - in the same way as most like Ali being doubled over by old man Rocky's body shot. And if Ali wouldn't have been hit by Rocky - why did Frazier - another swarmer deck him and beat 10 shades out of him in the fight of the century?

Of course. Frazier had evolved, Xmen style in those 10 years...

Ox. Please dont tell me that you believe Rocky would have stood a chance against Ali let alone the fight being competitive.

Rocky was 45+ when they sparred. No doubt Ali was going more thhan easy on him. And yes (again) whatever Rocky hit stays hit. I have never denied his strength, conditioning, punch power etc. They were phenomenal. I cast serious doubt on his skill. He was too crude to be classified as anything other than a fighter. He is without doubt the most unco-ordinated, unsophisticated, ugly, crude, ungainly manin the ring I have even seen. I'm suprised he had the cordination to climb through the ropes without tripping on his own feet.

And Frazier would have hammered him.

No, Frazier would not have hammered him. And I'd always give Marciano a chance against Ali. I'm not denying that Ali would start as most people's favourite - but to suggest that Ali hammers him/wins easily? How? Like Ali did against Norton? You can't be saying that Marciano loses to Norton?

Ali a great champion. The "sparring session" didn't involve Ali going easy - you need to read more about boxing history - you will learn anecdotes.

And if he was so ungainly, unsophisticated and crude - how did he go 49-0? Beating Walcott twice, Louis twice, Charles twice, LaStarza twice, Moore.

I'm guessing they must have all been rubbish.

Why the international boxing hall of fame rate them at all is beyond me.

No-one is commenting on my pros point.

There are so many fewer pros/titles today than before. It is there in blue and a slightly different shade of blue.

Yea, ye of the "modernity better than antiquity" bent - is that thy teeth chattering in fear? Your arguments have been cleaved asunder and swept aside like old leaves.

It certainly is beyond me why the IBHOF rate him. 49-0 is impressive. But I dont consider him beating Louis as much. Like wise I dint consider Tyson beating Holmes as much regardless of how well Holmes performed after the loss.

Starza was on a SD in which most observers believed he lost. But records state otherwise.

az, I have the entire Marciano v Walcott first fight. ( Actually, one round was never filmed - maybe the camera broke down, or something. ) Anyway, while nobody is going to pretend that Marciano was a heavyweight Floyd Mayweather, his actual BOXING was quite controlled and pretty decent during the fight. Sure, Walcott was ahead - no shame in that - but Marciano certainly had his moments.

He LOOKS wild in highlight reels, but so does Dempsey's destruction of Willard. Watch all three rounds of that one and you see some fine boxing from Dempsey. Watch the whole of the Walcott fight and you'll see that Rocky wasn't quite the carthorse which you portray.

I commented on that, I don't consider pros/titles as important a statistic as total pros. There will be call for the best fighters to fight regardless of titles. People know who the best are in the division and they bring the money.

We all know the titlists don't mean anything and if they are good enough they would challenge the 'people's champions'. It doesn't make competitiveness 1/4 what it would be otherwise just because there are 4 titles.

Lets be honest, it's a diversion because everyone believed that the total number of pro's was higher back then. Otherwise you'd be sticking to the total figure.

azania wrote:It certainly is beyond me why the IBHOF rate him. 49-0 is impressive. But I dont consider him beating Louis as much. Like wise I dint consider Tyson beating Holmes as much regardless of how well Holmes performed after the loss.

Starza was on a SD in which most observers believed he lost. But records state otherwise.

NOBODY said he lost, except one judge.

The controversy surrounds the fact that it was a draw on the cards, and Marciano won it on the ' supplementary scoring ' system of which, to be honest, I don't understand the workings.

Marciano floored LaStarza early on, and had a round deducted for a foul. Without the foul there would never have been a controversy.

HumanWindmill wrote:az, I have the entire Marciano v Walcott first fight. ( Actually, one round was never filmed - maybe the camera broke down, or something. ) Anyway, while nobody is going to pretend that Marciano was a heavyweight Floyd Mayweather, his actual BOXING was quite controlled and pretty decent during the fight. Sure, Walcott was ahead - no shame in that - but Marciano certainly had his moments.

He LOOKS wild in highlight reels, but so does Dempsey's destruction of Willard. Watch all three rounds of that one and you see some fine boxing from Dempsey. Watch the whole of the Walcott fight and you'll see that Rocky wasn't quite the carthorse which you portray.

This may surprise you, but I quite liked Dempsey and would pick him over Rocky any day.

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:az, I have the entire Marciano v Walcott first fight. ( Actually, one round was never filmed - maybe the camera broke down, or something. ) Anyway, while nobody is going to pretend that Marciano was a heavyweight Floyd Mayweather, his actual BOXING was quite controlled and pretty decent during the fight. Sure, Walcott was ahead - no shame in that - but Marciano certainly had his moments.

He LOOKS wild in highlight reels, but so does Dempsey's destruction of Willard. Watch all three rounds of that one and you see some fine boxing from Dempsey. Watch the whole of the Walcott fight and you'll see that Rocky wasn't quite the carthorse which you portray.

Laugh all you will, az.

The joke's on you if you haven't seen the entire fight. Does your DVD player actually play black and white film, or is it just your arguments which are colourless ?

HumanWindmill wrote:

azania wrote:

HumanWindmill wrote:az, I have the entire Marciano v Walcott first fight. ( Actually, one round was never filmed - maybe the camera broke down, or something. ) Anyway, while nobody is going to pretend that Marciano was a heavyweight Floyd Mayweather, his actual BOXING was quite controlled and pretty decent during the fight. Sure, Walcott was ahead - no shame in that - but Marciano certainly had his moments.

He LOOKS wild in highlight reels, but so does Dempsey's destruction of Willard. Watch all three rounds of that one and you see some fine boxing from Dempsey. Watch the whole of the Walcott fight and you'll see that Rocky wasn't quite the carthorse which you portray.

Laugh all you will, az.

The joke's on you if you haven't seen the entire fight. Does your DVD player actually play black and white film, or is it just your arguments which are colourless ?

I have seen the entire fight (unfortunately). Yep he does things which passes for rudimentary boxing. But he crouched forward dragging his trail leg like a dead weight readying himself for position and planting his feet before wailing away like a man chopping a tree. Decent boxers who were quick on their feet wouldn't be in the position to get his. A boxer with a decent jab would keep him at arm's length.