Robshaw and the England backrow

Whilst I wouldn't say Robshaw is one of the great natural talents of his generation, he is a very decent rugby player and his strong mentality and natural leadership skills mean he is likely to be a fixture for England up until the next WC. He reminds me of Tom Rees (although maybe not quite with the same level of ability) and England are lucky to have him.

If he is a fixture then it is probably at 7, which seems to be where he and his coaches think he should play. Morgan looks first choice at 8 at present, and if this doesn't change it means England have a lot of good backrow forwards competing for one starting place (whether you think Robshaw is a 6 or a 7):

Croft, Wood, Haskell, Clark, Fearns, Johnson, Dowson, Gibson, Kvesic, Craig (who I think can do a Croft impression at the line-out but with more physical presence), Launchbury, Welch, and Lawes. Scaysbrook, Seymour and Saull also have their admirers. And of course if Armitage wants to come back to England he can be added to the list.

Then there are other emerging players like Nutley, Sisi, Vunipola, Jones (who I think is a fine prospect who gets little press), Wray and Harrison. Further back, but possibilities for 2015, are players like Itoje and Clifford.

A few years back England was struggling for backrows, now the challenge is finding the right combination. There is going to be a lot of competition for places.

Hopefully if he gets some game time at his new club, add York. And Wallace. And Fraser

Also, Jake Abbott at Worcester. It looks like we have good depth in the backrow.

I'd add Crane to that list as well. If he gets back to the form he showed before his injury he'll be challenging Morgan for the starting spot at 8.

Of the emerging players there's Alex Gray as well.

Chris Walker too. Another one to nick from Leeds

I think Fearns is gonna have a big say on the back row debate. Has the lot.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think Fearns is gonna have a big say on the back row debate. Has the lot.

I've always been impressed when I've seen him play, he carries very well.

Croft and woods injuries give Robshaw a chance to make the 6 shirt his own and england the chance to try out some proper sevens from the summer tour squad. Like errr...

Morris kept refering to Fearns as an out and out 7, which I thought was interesting. Personally I think Robshaw has probably made the 7 shirt his own, and in most games it is the 6 shirt which is up for grabs.

Robshaw's a better seven than Croft, but had Wood played I think Wood would have been 7 and Robshaw 6. Likewise, I think Haskell would be better at 7.

Robshaw's value to England was amply demonstrated by his contribution to the Premiership final. There are other flankers who are better runners, lineout forwards and passers, and there are a few who match him in the tackling stakes. But I can't think of anyone else who gets through the sheer amount of work that he does, especially given his low error rate. That gives the other players in the back row more scope to play to their own strengths, because they can be confident that the basics will be covered.

It'll be interesting to see if he can carry his club form to South Africa. If he can, then he might start to deliver on being what Will Greenwood has long promised for him: being the successor to Richard Hill.

Robshaw does a pretty good job for quins operating as a first receiver as well. Often will play a few phases there as a pivot before Evans steps in when Quins want to change tempo and spread it wide Not sure whether that would map onto an international attacking scheme but it's worth considering.

Obviously having a so-called out and out 7 can be very useful but I think it has been somewhat overplayed since the world cup, purely because there happen to be some outstanding ones around right now (pocock, warburton, Brussow, McCaw and dusatoir regardless of what number he actually wears) and Robshaw's work in that area is underrated anyway. Big example was him winning the penalty that finished the final yesterday. Getting across to do that on first phase from a scrum was impressive.

Robshaw excelled on Saturday's final in just about everyway. His normal workrate through the roof and, as thomh has mentioned, as first receiver and showing improvement as a ball carrier.

Worth mentioning before i go any further, that i am completely bias as a Quins season pass holder!

As part of the 'out & out' 7 arguement goes, if it's only people like McCaw, Dusatoir, Warbs, etc, etc that people can throw out there are citiques of his 'natural' ability, then he ain't doing too bad! Watching England yesterday against the Baa-Baa's Fearn's didn't do a bad job, and made a few very good tackles, but he was lacking that huge workrate of Robshaw. With the engine the Quins academy have thrashed into him, unless he gets injured, he's not coming off for 80 minutes.

All this aside though, i like Lancasters policy of the best man for the shirt. No old boys club, no clique, no expecting the honour of wearing the shirt. You earn it, through graft and even though i am a massive quins fan and quite the advocate of his for his consistent workrate - a quality that is highly underrated - when someone else surpasses him, then he loses the shirt. As long as this makes players drive to excel then it can only be a good thing.

Think Johnson put his hand up for the 6 spot on yesterday performance.

England's talent base at back row is just ridiculous now. There are so many players who individually, are excellent. The problem now is just finding the right balance. If we can establish maybe two back row sets that all combine well and work together as a unit, then that would be brilliant, and they could almost rotate.

Given the number of flankers coming through the ranks, I'm hoping that Launchbury is very much seen as a lock for the future.

bluestonevedder wrote:England's talent base at back row is just ridiculous now. There are so many players who individually, are excellent. The problem now is just finding the right balance. If we can establish maybe two back row sets that all combine well and work together as a unit, then that would be brilliant, and they could almost rotate.

Given the number of flankers coming through the ranks, I'm hoping that Launchbury is very much seen as a lock for the future.

We've got a depth of very good players, problem is that they are all about the same level. I would really like to see a couple of them kick on and really develop into world class players, players that would be contenders for a 'world 15' spot.

Cumbrian wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:England's talent base at back row is just ridiculous now. There are so many players who individually, are excellent. The problem now is just finding the right balance. If we can establish maybe two back row sets that all combine well and work together as a unit, then that would be brilliant, and they could almost rotate.

Given the number of flankers coming through the ranks, I'm hoping that Launchbury is very much seen as a lock for the future.

We've got a depth of very good players, problem is that they are all about the same level. I would really like to see a couple of them kick on and really develop into world class players, players that would be contenders for a 'world 15' spot.

That's the advantage of a large player base though- it's going to increase the competition and force players to improve. I think over the next few seasons or so, we'll see a few of them really evolve into high class players. It's exciting. Jamie Gibson looked good when he came on, and he's what, 19 or 20?

I think Robshaw is doing brilliantly at 7. Previously I would have thought he is a 6, but now he is really starting to show his qualities at 7.

I think Robshaw is doing brilliantly at 7. Previously I would have thought he is a 6, but now he is really starting to show his qualities at 7.

I agree, he is similar in style to Warburton and whilst not really a groundhog like Back or Brussow he links well and gets involved in everything. If he wasn't MOTM at the AP final he should have been (the only remote competition was Ben Youngs). Robshaw and Morgan have the 7 and 8 shirts secure ahead of the SA tour.

Tom Johnson would make a good 6 for Robshaw, he can perform a similar role to Mori at Quins by making big runs with the ball and looking for the big hits while Robshaw covers for him.

Otherwise if he clicks back in to the team in training i'd put Haskall straight back in at 6 but he may well be benched for his versatility and after Dowsons knock (any news on that?).

Honestly the thought of plodding on with guys like hodgson and Dowson depresses me, and to my mind goes against what Lancaster professes to stand for.

On that note if as expected England end up going for a tactical kicking game with Farrell and co what are the variosu flanker options like in the lineout? if England start kicking for the corners you really need to be looking to try and mitigate for the loss of your premier lineout spoiler (Croft). Robshaw for all his strengths is not the sort of guy you expect to see leaping salmon like to snaffle opposition ball.

That was a world class performance from Robshaw on Saturday, he was outstanding. His link play was up there with McCaw and his work rate out of this world.

He has went from strength to strength this season and I imagine will be one of the first names on the team sheet.

Not seen anything in Fearns yet, he perfroms well at AP level but generally seems more lost the higher the level.

With Robshaw it's just the sheer consistency- he adds so much to the Quins team when he's there, he plays well almost every match, he drives others to work harder to keep up with him and though he doesn't make big hits or scything runs, he carries and tackles all game. It's a combo of traits that has worked very well for Lydiate in Wales and I think, whether at 6 or the 7 role he is improving drastically at, he is a huge asset. Sometimes during a match a McCaw or a Poccock will get the better of him but over a series that kind of consistency is invaluable.

And for this talk of a true fetcher at 7, some of McCaw's key attributes are very similar to Robshaw's- huge tackle count, cheating at the breakdown, huge work rate, link play. That is more what the World's premier 7 is actually about than being an out and out ruck genie, and I have changed my mind and think we can build a team around Robshaw at 7

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Robshaw for all his strengths is not the sort of guy you expect to see leaping salmon like to snaffle opposition ball.

You may not expect it, but it does happen. This season, Robshaw caught 28 lineouts and made 5 steals in 18 Premiership games. That puts him just behind Olly Kohn in the Quins lineout in absolute terms, and second behind Robson in "per game" terms. He steals just under 0.3 lineouts per game, versus Croft at 0.4.

I still don't think that's a good tactic to try against SA's lineout though

This all depends on whether you regard 7 as being a specialist position, which I do. Its no co-incidence that the worlds best sides all have a specialist in that position. The breakdown has been a consistent problem for England - we need someone top go in and secure quick ball. Armitage is the best option that England have in that area, and has been for quite a while.

England have a number of great flankers, but they're all 6s rather than 7s. England's back row could well end up resembling the Gerrard/Lampard situation in the wendyball team, with two identical players getting in each others way because management don't want to leave either out. There needs to be a balance of skill sets across the back row.

Robshaw can pass as a 7 in the Jeff in part because there are no real 7s in the entire league to compete against him (I'm not criticising Robshaw as a whole, just one part of his game). The guy is a genuine asset to any team that he plays in, but we need a specialist 7 in the same way we need a specialist 10 or a specialist 2. If England can't bear moving him to 6, it is worth remembering that Toulon play Armitage at 8 at scrum time, so that thye can use his speed.

I don't actually think Armitage is that great at the breakdown either, he's a little brainless tbh and seems to do more damage than good.

I'm surprised people are saying Robshaw is the nailed on starter and Croft will have to fight for his place. To my mind, Croft is the only long term certainty in the England back row. Robshaw has been impressive this year, but we don't really know whether this is permanent class or a temporary spike in form. Croft has proven his worth at the highest level for a few years now. When Tom Wood returns to fitness he will undoubtedly have a big say in this debate, as will Haskell when he returns to the premiership next season. At the moment Morgan looks the best option at 8 but again, we haven't seen enough of him for long enough to have him inked in at 8 for the foreseeable future.

When everyone is fit, and by current standings, I would say Croft starts at 6 without question. Then Wood, Robshaw, Morgan and Haskell scrap for the other two spots and the bench role. It is a nice problem to have, meaning even with a couple of injuries we have a strong back row. There are other youngsters coming through as well so it isn't an area we should be concerned about.

If Croft can come and play for England like he did in the last 2 6 N games, he'll waltz back into the team. If he plays like he did in the tests before that he will be under pressure like every other flanker in that list

"Robshaw has been impressive this year, but we don't really know whether this is permanent class or a temporary spike in form"

Robshaw - AP player of the year 2009, 2012

I suspect he's had a bit of form before this season

Armitage was the Top 14s player of the season this year Pooly.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think Robshaw is doing brilliantly at 7. Previously I would have thought he is a 6, but now he is really starting to show his qualities at 7.

I agree, he is similar in style to Warburton and whilst not really a groundhog like Back or Brussow he links well and gets involved in everything. If he wasn't MOTM at the AP final he should have been (the only remote competition was Ben Youngs). Robshaw and Morgan have the 7 and 8 shirts secure ahead of the SA tour.

Bit of a side discussion here, but I felt Care outplayed Youngs. Yes Youngs was critical to the couple of plays that dragged Tigers right back in it, but Care was better throughout, adding the structure that enabled the team to function so well.

Cross-checking that with the match stats, not much between them in attack (Care edges it), not impressive defensive stats from Youngs though, 3 missed tackles, 25% success rate.


Care/Youngs

Metres 76/70
Clean Breaks 3/2
Defenders Beaten 2/2
Offloads 1/1
Tackles 1/1
Missed Tackles 0/3

mawhis wrote:Armitage was the Top 14s player of the season this year Pooly.

Yea I know mate, watch quite a bit of T14. I think Armitage is good player but I don't think he's great at the breakdown.

One could argue that those breaks that brought Leicester back into the game were things only Youngs would have done. In those alone he had a huge positive influence for Tigers on the match

stlowe wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

I think Robshaw is doing brilliantly at 7. Previously I would have thought he is a 6, but now he is really starting to show his qualities at 7.

I agree, he is similar in style to Warburton and whilst not really a groundhog like Back or Brussow he links well and gets involved in everything. If he wasn't MOTM at the AP final he should have been (the only remote competition was Ben Youngs). Robshaw and Morgan have the 7 and 8 shirts secure ahead of the SA tour.

Bit of a side discussion here, but I felt Care outplayed Youngs. Yes Youngs was critical to the couple of plays that dragged Tigers right back in it, but Care was better throughout, adding the structure that enabled the team to function so well.

Cross-checking that with the match stats, not much between them in attack (Care edges it), not impressive defensive stats from Youngs though, 3 missed tackles, 25% success rate.


Care/Youngs

Metres 76/70
Clean Breaks 3/2
Defenders Beaten 2/2
Offloads 1/1
Tackles 1/1
Missed Tackles 0/3

I think Care played of a slightly better forward display and he had Evans outside him which helped a bit!

Personally think both Care & Youngs are top draw but Youngs has that little bit more class. Both are streets ahead of Dickson who is a steady scrummie but nothing special.

I'm happy to have Care and Youngs in some form though because frankly they both have good potential as our 9s and put each other under pressure to perform. I only hope that being dropped has made Care better at thinking before he acts, as his only real flaw for me on the pitch is to get carried away and say or do something stupid at a really inopportune time

Danny Care was certainly impressive, and started like a rocket. Youngs was brilliant towards to end of the second half, back to his fantastic best. To be honest, I wouldn't mind either of them starting the Tests come June. Either one of them off the bench can really spark an attacking threat, especially against a worn down and tired defence.

We just need to get rid of Farrell and we might have an attacking threat

Now now, Farrell would go well with another attacking FH- then you can bring him on to kick victories in poor conditions and get Flood etc to spread the ball if conditions are good. That's what using the full 22 is all about.

I think Farrell can work in an attacking line up but only at 10, not in the centres, and with an attacking 12 (whether a runner like Allen or a passer like 36) outside him

Sgt_Pooly wrote:"Robshaw has been impressive this year, but we don't really know whether this is permanent class or a temporary spike in form"

Robshaw - AP player of the year 2009, 2012

I suspect he's had a bit of form before this season

Sorry, I meant at test level. We've all seen players impress in the domestic game, have a few decent matches for England then fall away. Robshaw has still not had what anyone could call an outstanding game for England.

Sorry CJ, Farrell touches a nerve. I really do not rate the boy.

I'd happily have him come on at about 81mins to see out a game lol

But if robshaw and say tom Johnson play sublime v the potentially very strong sa back row then croft, wood and everyone else should nit walk in to the team.

Wood's rating seems to have rocketed whist out injured, he's hardly set the world alight in an England jersey

Sgt. Pooly, Wood was very good in a winning England team in the 2011 Six Nations and was Premiership Player of the Year for 2010-2011, and if you're counting that award as a plus for Robshaw you have to accept it for Wood as well.

On your Farrell debate, I can't agree. He is the best option at present, until Ford and/or Burns mature a bit more. Farrell is an outstanding defender, an outstanding kicker, a decent enough distributor from 10 (not 12) and clearly has the mentality to do well. Like Robshaw, he has to play for longer to be considered a long term certainty. Flood has been playing for years and consistently flattered to deceive. I am not a Flood fan.

We obviously have very different views Jeff, not a bad thing.

Farrell's passing to Joseph yesterday was not good. JJ had to pick a couple up off the deck as I recall

I don't think Farrell is a good distributer at all personally, he can certainly kick & defend though. He can definatley kick...and kick....and kick

I don't really disagree on Robshaw. I fully accept his current position as the stand out option at 7, but I just feel he needs to play at this level for a bit longer before anointing him heir to the throne of English rugby, especially with the calibre of players to come back from injury.

It depends on how Lancaster wants to play, at the moment he is trying to organise a play what you see policy which is fine and good if you've got naturally creative players, but England don't. Dickson prefers a regimented game and both Care and Youngs like to have their set calls with their forwards and 10s (Youngs looked lost with the England forwards in the 6N). Farrell has no hope of playing attacking rugby in that sort of system as whilst he has the kicking game to pull it off his passing is very slow and he has to stand far to deep in order to spread the ball wide, if your going to play what you see you need to have great hands and vision which are Farrell's weaknesses. Flood is more comfortable playing closer to the gainline as is Burns.

In a couple of years we'll have Ford who stands so flat he is almost at the gainline to start with.

Lancaster either needs to set up a more regimented attack and back Farrell or drop Farrell and keep the current attacking system but with Flood (the form ten for the last two months of the AP Season) at fly half.

mawhis wrote:Farrell's passing to Joseph yesterday was not good. JJ had to pick a couple up off the deck as I recall

A little hard to master a skill when you never use it though.

"Farrell has no hope of playing attacking rugby in that sort of system as whilst he has the kicking game to pull it off his passing is very slow and he has to stand far to deep in order to spread the ball wide"

Great point on Farrell. I keep hearing he's a good distubutor but he is more a shifter of the ball than a distributor. He never fixes the man or takes it to the line prefering to just pass it on to the 12/13 and allow them a brick wall of 2/3 defenders to try and beat.

The 2 on 1 he missed yesterday was nothing short of shocking, I see U12 props finishing moves like that off and our best hope at 10 can't??? Flood is on a different planet to Farrell.