England backrow for the AIs

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Sep 2012, 9:02 pm

So we've speculated about the England back 3 given Foden's unfortunate injury but what about the back row

Johnson, the man with the 6 shirt, is injured, quite badly it seems.
Croft should be back in October but will it be soon enough?
Wood is back but only at 80-85% at his own admission
Robshaw is captain and in form but Wood was first choice before his injury, how does his return affect Robshaw's place?
Morgan is one of Gloucester's most convincing players at the moment but Fearns is looking in form, Vunipola too and so is Guest
Haskell was dropped from the EPS but has made an impact for Wasps. Could Johnson's injury open the way for him again.
Armitage is highly lauded but in France
Waldrum's and Easter are old and unwanted by some but their form at 8 is as good as anyone's
And is Kvesic still England next long term 7? Or is that 8?

Johnson's injury plus the limited playing time and injury of Wood and Croft has made the 6 position (and because Robshaw can cover 6, 7 by extension) very interesting and I'm still not sure Morgan is quite nailed on at 8. What's your back row for Fiji from what we know now?

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Sep 2012, 9:29 pm

CJ,

From a neutrals POV whats Morgans fitness like so far this season, has he worked on it pre season

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Sep 2012, 9:32 pm

I've only watched 1 of Gloucester's games in full, the other 2 highlights. It looks better, still never going to be an area he wins over others like Robshaw or McCaw. But I'd say improving but Test level and Club level are different things.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Sep 2012, 9:34 pm

And his young rivals for the shirt, aside from Crane, whom I forgot to mention, all have fitness issues too

by bedfordwelsh Wed 19 Sep 2012, 9:35 pm

Yeah I don't think it will ever be his strongest point but then again Deano wasn't exactly renowned in that area lol

by stlowe Wed 19 Sep 2012, 9:48 pm

Just a little reminder on the current EPS forwards and the Saxons that can be used to replace the injured:

M Botha (Saracens), A Corbisiero (London Irish), D Cole (Leicester), T Croft (Leicester), P Dowson (Northampton), D Hartley (Northampton), T Johnson (Exeter), C Lawes (Northampton), J Marler (Harlequins), B Morgan (Gloucester), T Palmer (Wasps), G Parling (Leicester), C Robshaw (Harlequins), M Stevens (Saracens), T Waldrom (Leicester), R Webber (Bath), T Wood (Northampton)

N Catt (Bath), C Clark (Northampton), L Deacon (Leicester), P Doran-Jones (Northampton), C Fearns (Bath), J Gaskell (Sale Sharks), J Gibson (London Irish), J Gray (Harlequins), J Haskell (Wasps), G Kitchener (Leicester), M Kvesic (Worcester), J Launchbury (Wasps), M Mullan (Worcester), D Paice (London Irish), G Robson (Harlequins), H Thomas (Sale Sharks), D Wilson (Bath), T Youngs (Leicester)

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Sep 2012, 9:55 pm

On the EPS injury side of things, that's Corbs, Johnson and Webber probably out, Croft maybe out, with Stevens retired and Wood and Lawes coming back from long term injury. I forgot replacements could only come from the Saxons Doh

so who looks good to replace Webber, Corba, Stevens and Johnson?

Surely Haskell for Johnson? Or if Wood/Croft are definitely match fit, maybe Launchbury? Youngs or Gray for Webber? Who for the props?

by robbo277 Wed 19 Sep 2012, 10:19 pm

I don't think replacements have to come up from the Saxons, for example when Armitage broke into the team he was neither in the EPS or the Saxons. Replacements are more likely to come from the Saxons, granted.

I've heard Armitage's form in France is still up there, he's got the most turnovers so far this season, but would we have him for all 4 Autumn games, or just the statutory 3? I'm sure Lancaster would be reluctant to call Armitage up if he wasn't available for all the games. There would also be problems during the 6 Nations with rest weeks.

If Johnson doesn't make it Haskell has to come in for him, and Haskell, Robshaw, Morgan could be a really good back row. It's missing an out-and-out fetcher, but our other forwards make up in this area, it's big carriers we appear to be missing.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Sep 2012, 10:22 pm

And Haskell and Robshaw could happily share floor-work duties, both are decent on the deck, especially with Cole chipping in

by ChequeredJersey Wed 19 Sep 2012, 10:23 pm

But if Croft is fit in time, the Croft, Robshaw, Morgan partnership was fairly effective in the 6N

by johnpartle Wed 19 Sep 2012, 11:00 pm

I know England supporters aren't the biggest fans of Waldrom's selection, but he's the man in possession of the shirt and I think he's still playing the better all round rugby compared to Morgan. If things continue as present I expect him to get the nod come the AIs.

With Johnson out and Croft's injury recovery taking him within a few weeks of the start of the AIs I reckon Wood will take one of the flanks. He's still playing himself into the form we would hope from him, but he's got almost 2 months to do so and he's hardly miles off the pace as it is. One of the main things I think will seal it for him over the other candidates is the quality line out option he offers, much like Croft.

Haskell would be the other likely candidate, but his penalty rate remains high even at club level (2 per match so far, 6 in 3 games, compare that to Wood's 1 in 3). I think it would possibly be higher against the SH sides and we can't afford that against them.

by HQ matt Thu 20 Sep 2012, 9:38 am

Waldrom is only 29 and is a viable option. also dowson has been selected in the eps, is playing well at the moment and could feature.

by bluestonevedder Thu 20 Sep 2012, 9:49 am

Assuming Croft and Johnson are not fit to return in time, I would go for one of the two backrows below.

6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

Bench: Fearns

OR

6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

Bench: Fearns

Launchburry's future lies at lock I think, and personally I would like to keep him there. I don't mind him playing 6 at club level, but at international, I think he should be played there from the start.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 20 Sep 2012, 9:52 am

Johnson is not as badly injured as first thought so no reason he should not be a contender for november. Asbo is not so sure but reports have suggested he just might be ok to play this weekend.

Croft will be back in about 3 weeks, but does not have enough time to make the cut you would think.

Wood is regaining fitness, mainly match fitness. He will be right in contention.

For the Fiji game I would expect to see:

6) Wood
7) Robshaw
8) Morgan

20) Johnson

Waldrom will be in the mix and will probably start at least one AI.

These are not my picks as such - but based on the squads Lancaster chose how I think he will go.

by Geordie Thu 20 Sep 2012, 11:13 am

LT

Thats actually a strong back row. Be interested to see how that goes.

by Poorfour Thu 20 Sep 2012, 12:44 pm

I'd be excited to see Wood and Robshaw playing together. In some ways they're quite similar but they're two versatile and hard working players and should create some room for Morgan to be a wrecking ball at 8.

The big question is, where does Croft fit in once he's fully fit? He had his best international games for some years in the 6N, and I think it's no accident that they coincided with being paired with Robshaw, whose workrate will have given him more opportunity to work in the loose.

There's a decent supply of backrow talent available now and I imagine it will be up to Lancaster and Wig to find the right combination.

by Cumbrian Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:00 pm

Just a little aside, if Marler gets injured in the next month or so we are going to be in some serious trouble.

When everyone is fit we've got good depth at loosehead with; Corbisiero, Marler and Matt Mullan. It becomes less impressive when we've got Matt Mullan, Nathan Catt and.... er who?... Paul Doran-Jones I guess?

Perhaps it would be worth calling up Nick Wood from Gloucester or Mako Vunipola from Sarries?

by Cumbrian Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:12 pm

bluestonevedder wrote:Assuming Croft and Johnson are not fit to return in time, I would go for one of the two backrows below.

6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

Bench: Fearns

OR

6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

Bench: Fearns

Launchburry's future lies at lock I think, and personally I would like to keep him there. I don't mind him playing 6 at club level, but at international, I think he should be played there from the start.

I'd go with the second selection. Wood may only be 80%, but it is early on in the season and there is still 7 games in the AP/ HC before the first test. That is plenty of time for him to start playing himself into form.

by Geordie Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:13 pm

Whilst i accept the back row set up is affected by the set up of the front five...i do feel IF we cant get a top class back row out of the below it is a concern:

Croft, Wood
Robshaw, Haskell
Morgan, Waldrom
Crane, Johnson
Armitage (awkward one i know)
Fearns

Hell even Lawes and Launchbury have played to high standards at 6!

by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:13 pm

We have the ingredients for a great back row. I strongly think Wood and Vunipola should be up in the Saxons

by stlowe Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:25 pm

Just thought I'd offer a few stats regarding the selection at 8:

Morgan/Waldrom

Matches 3/3
Minutes 240/177
Tries 1/2
Passes 5/12
Carries 36/35
Metres 156/184
Clean Breaks 1/1
Offloads 1/1
Defenders Beaten 9/5
Tackles 26/20
Tackles Missed 3/0

by Geordie Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:28 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Just a little aside, if Marler gets injured in the next month or so we are going to be in some serious trouble.

When everyone is fit we've got good depth at loosehead with; Corbisiero, Marler and Matt Mullan. It becomes less impressive when we've got Matt Mullan, Nathan Catt and.... er who?... Paul Doran-Jones I guess?

Perhaps it would be worth calling up Nick Wood from Gloucester or Mako Vunipola from Sarries?

Marra get Johnny Golding in there Wink

by ChequeredJersey Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:29 pm

Yeah but Morgan is playing for Gloucester, who have less dominant forwards than Leicester. And Leicester have had Welsh

by Cumbrian Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:32 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Just a little aside, if Marler gets injured in the next month or so we are going to be in some serious trouble.

When everyone is fit we've got good depth at loosehead with; Corbisiero, Marler and Matt Mullan. It becomes less impressive when we've got Matt Mullan, Nathan Catt and.... er who?... Paul Doran-Jones I guess?

Perhaps it would be worth calling up Nick Wood from Gloucester or Mako Vunipola from Sarries?

Marra get Johnny Golding in there

Aye, forgotten old Johnny. Weird that a couple of years ago he was all set to get a chance for England and an injury at the wrong time snookered it all!

by Geordie Thu 20 Sep 2012, 1:37 pm

Yup...

If we're down to Mullan (who i rate highly) id back him up with Wood or Golding...regardless of being in the champs...

Besides, had he got his cap the former regimes anti international stance meant we'd have got shot of him as we did tait, flood etc...

by timhen Thu 20 Sep 2012, 2:03 pm

Wood
Robshaw
Waldrom

Fearns

by yappysnap Thu 20 Sep 2012, 2:38 pm

I haven't been impressed with Wood so far, pretty much anonymous for Saints in the two games I saw and outshone by Dowson.

I'd go with

6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

But agree that Wood may get in there as Lancaster obv rates him highly. And he does give that important lineout option.

by yappysnap Thu 20 Sep 2012, 2:44 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Just a little aside, if Marler gets injured in the next month or so we are going to be in some serious trouble.

When everyone is fit we've got good depth at loosehead with; Corbisiero, Marler and Matt Mullan. It becomes less impressive when we've got Matt Mullan, Nathan Catt and.... er who?... Paul Doran-Jones I guess?

Perhaps it would be worth calling up Nick Wood from Gloucester or Mako Vunipola from Sarries?

Marra get Johnny Golding in there

Aye, forgotten old Johnny. Weird that a couple of years ago he was all set to get a chance for England and an injury at the wrong time snookered it all!

Vunipola has played very well so far at loosehead for Saracens, and his brothers gone well at 8 for Wasps, i'd expect them both to feature in the Saxons. Just a shame that Saxons don't have any games over the autumn Doh

what's the point in even selecting them right now?

by niwatts Thu 20 Sep 2012, 6:03 pm

Still relatively early days and a number of games for players to make a case, but don't feel anyone is a stand out option for the blindside so far.

Of the more established bunch Johnson has probably been the all round pick and most likely to retain the shirt (the injury now not seeming that bad), Wood is working his way back to full fitness and not yet at his best, Haskell is doing OK but not particularly evident with ball in hand and remains a penalty machine, Croft has been injured for 6 months and unlikely to be ready for international rugby even if he does make it back for Tigers shortly before.

Fearns is a definite emerging possibility, his defensive and breakdown work have been quality.

An outside option (not one I'd necessarily go for) for a more ball carrying backrow might be to select both the in form Waldrom & Morgan, with Waldrom at blindside like Tigers very succesfully played him before Crane's injury.

by DaveM Thu 20 Sep 2012, 9:34 pm

I think Morgan will be the starting 8 if he retains form and fitness.

7 will be Robshaw.

6 could be Haskell, Fearns, Wood, Johnson or, if fit, Croft.

I'd go with Haskell, then Fearns. For me Wood is a 7.

Although actually I'd be tempted to go with Lawes, with Launchbury at lock.

Lots of options, and it's unlikely any of them would let us down.

by mbernz Thu 20 Sep 2012, 11:54 pm

I think Lancaster will stick with Waldrom for the AIs. Morgan may well be the great white hope, but Waldrom is playing as well if not better and is the man with the shirt after Morgan disappointed in SA and had to be exchanged. There are still a number of questions over his head, not least his endurance for an international game.

Robshaw will retain the 7 shirt and if Johnson returns from injury as soon as reports suggest Lancaster will stick with him at 6.

On the bench I wouldn't be surprised to see Lancaster continue with Dowson. Haskell would be a better and likely option to my mind, but personally I'd prefer to see Fearns, he's a strong future 8 candidate and covers the whole backrow to a good standard, Haskell seems to perenially have an issue engaing his brain in the heat of battle and giving away a multitude of penalties.

by gowales Fri 21 Sep 2012, 8:04 am

yappysnap wrote:I haven't been impressed with Wood so far, pretty much anonymous for Saints in the two games I saw and outshone by Dowson.

I'd go with

6. Haskell
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

But agree that Wood may get in there as Lancaster obv rates him highly. And he does give that important lineout option.

I like that, there's a good balance

by yappysnap Fri 21 Sep 2012, 9:25 am

How about a backrow of:

6. Lawes
7. Fearns
8. Vunipola

Not particularly subtle and Cole would have his work cut out on the deck as the only scavenger but heck could those guys do some damage.

by ChequeredJersey Fri 21 Sep 2012, 10:09 am

Isn't Haskell just as physical as Lawes and a scavenger who could play 6?

by Cumbrian Fri 21 Sep 2012, 10:13 am

Another alternative:

06. Carl Fearns
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Ben Morgan

19. Thomas Waldrom

Would be rubbish in the line-out, but would carry, tackle and ruck all day long.

by yappysnap Fri 21 Sep 2012, 10:17 am

I wouldn't say so CJ. But he is probably a better 6. I wouldn't want to be playing against either really...

by yappysnap Fri 21 Sep 2012, 10:17 am

Line outs are over rated Cumbrian!

by ChequeredJersey Fri 21 Sep 2012, 10:23 am

That's what second rows are for. Plus Robshaw can jump

by Cumbrian Fri 21 Sep 2012, 10:34 am

ChequeredJersey wrote:That's what second rows are for. Plus Robshaw can jump

True, but it also very much depends upon the make up of our second row. If we have one as a lineout expert and one as a bruiser, that cuts down the options a bit more. Does one dedicated lineout second row and Robshaw give us enough options? I'm not entirely sure.

by yappysnap Fri 21 Sep 2012, 10:56 am

Ok well how about:

6. Gaskell
7. Wood
8. Croft

Plenty of line out options in there

by gowales Fri 21 Sep 2012, 10:57 am

yappysnap wrote:Ok well how about:

6. Gaskell
7. Wood
8. Croft

Plenty of line out options in there

by Cumbrian Fri 21 Sep 2012, 11:02 am

yappysnap wrote:Ok well how about:

6. Gaskell
7. Wood
8. Croft

Plenty of line out options in there

Still not quite convinced. Have we got any tall props?

by bluestonevedder Fri 21 Sep 2012, 11:32 am

Against the big abrasive Fijians, I would play Haskell at 6, with Robshaw at 7, and Morgan at 8. Lots of carrying power, good groundwork and work rate. I'd be tempted to have Fearns as the bench option against Fiji too. His tenacity could prove an excellent impact off the becnh against them.

If Haskell fails to bring the physcial edge, I'd start Johnson the next game, since his speed seems to cause problems and was impressive in SA.

One thing's for certain- when Johnson, Wood, and Croft are all back to fitness, there's some serious competition.

by damage_13 Fri 21 Sep 2012, 11:38 am

Robshaw
Haskell
Morgan

with orders to Nick, Destroy and Run

by bluestonevedder Fri 21 Sep 2012, 11:55 am

damage_13 wrote:Robshaw
Haskell
Morgan

with orders to Nick, Destroy and Run

Like absolute rabid monkeys mad

by Geordie Fri 21 Sep 2012, 12:05 pm

How has Fearns been playing?

I havent seen any of him this season, but he's a player i rated very highly from his emergence at Sale.
Is he looking like hes had a good conditioning pre season?

I think it'll still be (If they are all at their peak )

6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

Wood over Haskell purely as he is the Lineout option aswell.

by bluestonevedder Fri 21 Sep 2012, 12:17 pm

GF, he's been a defensive machine so far. But he hasn't been hugely noticable in the matches I've seen. He got some good tackles in against Northampton that shuddered the opposition. Would like to see more of him with ballk in hand, but he's going well. Looks a lot fitter too

by hawalsh Fri 21 Sep 2012, 12:20 pm

The backrow will be:

Johnson
Robshaw
Waldrom

They were the best performing players in their position in SA, aside from the injured captain were the last players Lancaster selected there, all players that he selected in the EPS and not the Saxons after the summer tour, and they've been the best performing in those positions in the AP so far.

For those fretting over lineouts, in SA Johnson took 8 (in 3 games) and Robshaw took 3 (in 2 games). In the AP so far both have taken 4, and Robshaw stolen 1, Johnson stolen 2. They may not be as good a lineout option as Croft or Wood, but they're certainly effective and functioning within the current set up.

by Geordie Fri 21 Sep 2012, 12:25 pm

I wouldnt have any issues with Johnson starting...i just hope that if he does, we see him ball in hand a bit more - the guy is a great carrier/broken game runner.
SA was a huge one for him physically etc...so i didnt expect fireworks...but i would certainly be looking for more against FIji.

by Cumbrian Fri 21 Sep 2012, 12:48 pm

Thought Johnson was injured? Wasn't sure how badly though.

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