Andy Farrell walks away from the Sarries to join England! (Gawdelpus)

Just heard a rumour on R5.

More news as it emerges...

[ed] Ah, my favourite journal of record ...

Spoiler:

and ESPN :

Spoiler:

If it's true, he can stay away from England, Thanks very much.*

But it would be excellent news for Sarries if the want Ashton to perform to his potential.

*[ed] Disaster! ESPN

Saracens coach Andy Farrell has resigned from his role as head coach to take up a post within Stuart Lancaster's England coaching set-up, according to reports.

Disaster for England. Sarries have shown no attacking promise in these last two years with Farrell Snr as head coach. England showed no backline attacking intent during the entire 6N with Farrell Snr as backs/attack coach. Very worrying for England.

Sarries should be happy, Tomkins will be bedded in for next year and Ashton is arriving so not only will their (English heavy) backline be looking talented they will also stand a chance of attacking ball in hand as a new coach will be coming in. Imagine the brutally efficient Sarries who offer ruthless counter attacks through Alex Goode suddenly being able to play Brian Ashton style heads up attacking rugby. They'd be a serious force to be reckoned with.

It depends what capacity he joins England in. I wouldn't mind defence co-ordinator, but as backs coach?

ESPN:

Farrell resigned from his role at Saracens on Thursday evening with the club labelling his decision a "surprise". The club have not wasted any time appointing in filling his shoes with Kevin Sorrell stepping up to the take the role of backs coach.

"Kevin is making a swift and successful transition from outstanding player to outstanding coach," Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall said. "He is Saracens through and through, and we are delighted he has agreed to take up this important post."

Who knows? Maybe the Saracens might get to be cuddly and loveable.

But they'll for me still have to drop the Southern Africa emphasis.

Yeah cant see it being attack coach with catt there (albeit temporarily). Defence coach may work...but i.thought gustard was sarries def coach.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah cant see it being attack coach with catt there (albeit temporarily). Defence coach may work...but i.thought gustard was sarries def coach.

Farrell will not be involved in the summer tour GF.Catt (it now appears) now won't be afterwards...

Bad news indeed for England (and probably Lancaster).

I'll be first to say it - Hands off Cockerill!

Bad news

Right as defensive coordinator and Fly Half pocket money co-ordinater he'll do just dandy. They need someone to come up with a better attacking plan though, its a pretty depressing prospect.

It is all a bit soccerlike this though, only a few wees ago he was fully committed. I'm guessing a fair bit of compo has been paid behind the scenes for this.

Poor old Sarries, cant hold on to coaches can they.

Potentially really good news for Sarries, who may now develop an attacking game.

I'd be genuinely happy to see him as England defence coach. He must not coach the attack though - I'd much rather have Catt in that role.

i.thought gustard was sarries def coach.

Defence and lineout coach. I'm guessing he works with Farrell on the backs defensive alignment.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Bad news

Bad news indeed - possibly for for your club GF.

If the Falcons stay up and if Deano does well, then he might be the man that the RFU will deem most appropriate.

I don't fancy SL's chances with AF in tow as his first lieutenant...

True Portnoy, their record together is woeful and they did little to win the RFUs confidence.


Or not.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:True Portnoy, their record together is woeful and they did little to win the RFUs confidence.


Or not.

My guess PSW, is that MJ's 2012 6Ns side wouldn't have been wildly different from SL's. And the results would have been pretty much identical - except for the Wales result. But that is pure conjecture as it all water under the bridge.

Moving on. We've got what we've got...

This is bad bad news

I for one wouldn't mind seeing Farrell Snr in as defense coach after the baa-baa's game.

Lancaster's already mentioned a 3 man coaching squad in the, so with Rowntree, Farrell & Catt that's looking nicely rounded. More to the point it's 3 guys who are willing to graft for the honoour of the position, not merc's.

Obviously Catt has an on the job interview, but where does it say that Farrell in = Catt out? Personally, if Catt does well in SA they should keep him on and put farrell in as defense coach.

AlastairW wrote:I for one wouldn't mind seeing Farrell Snr in as defense coach after the baa-baa's game.

Lancaster's already mentioned a 3 man coaching squad in the, so with Rowntree, Farrell & Catt that's looking nicely rounded. More to the point it's 3 guys who are willing to graft for the honoour of the position, not merc's.

Obviously Catt has an on the job interview, but where does it say that Farrell in = Catt out? Personally, if Catt does well in SA they should keep him on and put farrell in as defense coach.

Do you really believe Alistair that AF having cut himself adrift from a lucritive Saracens' contract would be in any way expecting to contest a coaching role with Catty?

In another twist R5 reports that SL has had no contact with AF.

Sounds to me that SL may have overstepped himself.

Or Farrell has.

Or the whole of English rugby can't tell its arse from its elbow.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/jun/01/stuart-lancaster-andy-farrell-england?newsfeed=true

Portnoy wrote:In another twist R5 reports that SL has had no contact with AF.

Being on the same team doesnt stop his son from refusing to acknowledge anyone outside of him exists either

Looks like potentially Catt might be coming home to Bath next season after all.....

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/164937.html

"There's something very special happening at Saracens"...right Andy?

Portnoy wrote:

AlastairW wrote:I for one wouldn't mind seeing Farrell Snr in as defense coach after the baa-baa's game.

Lancaster's already mentioned a 3 man coaching squad in the, so with Rowntree, Farrell & Catt that's looking nicely rounded. More to the point it's 3 guys who are willing to graft for the honoour of the position, not merc's.

Obviously Catt has an on the job interview, but where does it say that Farrell in = Catt out? Personally, if Catt does well in SA they should keep him on and put farrell in as defense coach.

Do you really believe Alistair that AF having cut himself adrift from a lucritive Saracens' contract would be in any way expecting to contest a coaching role with Catty?

Hey Portnoy, i probabley wasn't too clear earlier as i was tryng to sneak a post in at work!

I don't see why contesting a place would be in order? I can't remember where i saw the quote before, and i'm way to lazy to find it, but i'm sure i've seen SL attest to the idea of a 4 man coaching squad. We know that Lancaster/Rowntree & Farrell work well together, and i think this tour will be an on the job interview for Catt.

Saying he lands it, then I'd see Catt as offensive coach and Farrell as defensive. 2 coachs for backs, both playing to their respective strenghts. Now, this may be a case of too many cooks - but if they all work well together, they it could turn out very very well for England.

How to fudge an issue:

"He's made his decision (with Saracens) but I've not been party to that, I've been out here. I guess it will all unfold over the course of the next few weeks and when I get back I'll have a chance to sit down and look at it and find out exactly what the situation is," he said on Sky Sports News. "Without doubt he's a coach I get on well with, he added value to the coaching team and if he's available, clearly I'll definitely be interested."

Spoiler:

It's as though Farrell, the RFU and the media spin is going to make we mugs (the rugby fellow-travellers) can be hoodwinked.

Dear Messrs Lancater, Farrell and stool-pigeon Catt.

NOBODY IS FOOLED.

Least of all the players.

Why can't English fans be treated with some respect?

So will England and Sale be in the dock at the same time charged with tapping up coaches?

I don't think Sarries are that fussed, it took them a couple if hours to announce Farrell's replacement, Kevin Sorrell, so they are obviously not to bothered.

Could this unsettle Owen Farrell and prompt someone like...Oh I don't know,Diamond for instance to engineer a situation to take him back North?

So let me get this right, the lack of creativity in England midfield play is ALL AF's fault as the backs coach? Not what he has been told to do by let's say THE HEAD COACH? Of course not that would be silly AF was obviously acting on his own going against the head coach.

Same at Sarries, he is not the one who dictates how they play, that is done by the HEAD COACH, anything to give someone a kicking.

As everyone one here thinks England's back should play like the all blacks but you can't get two posters to agree on who should play in the backs with out putting a favorite player in, it must be the back coaches fault that they are not.

Some posters need to get of their computer chair or away from the tv, go and play the bloody game for once and see how easy it is to play with different combinations every week across the part and see how easy it is to play all blacks style against teams of equal or better players. Then open your mouth with in insight on what's involved

Agree with you knackered. But I think most of the posters on this thread at least do/have played...

Farrel will be a very good defence coach for any team, I don't think he has the experience for backs and attack though at least not at the highest levels.

That's why I said some yappy, but a fair few have no idea and jump on the Sarries bad bandwagon that's running loose now.

When he was appointed everyone was over the moon about it saying how good he was and we needed him in, now we're not the all blacks(and never will be with the players we have) it's all his fault.

Up until now it was always the head coach that got the blame but now for some reason it's AF to blame

If I had seen any real sign of attacking intent from England this 6Ns, I'd be thinking differently. But as they had the negative AF mark all over them and the Sarries style, then until I see an improvement, I'll stick to my guns.

And I'm not prepared to disassemble my views on the back of one game against a particularly poor Ireland.

p.s. I'm undecided as to whether Ashton's impotency was due to lack of form or his working to a prescribed game-plan.

Knackeredknees wrote:That's why I said some yappy, but a fair few have no idea and jump on the Sarries bad bandwagon that's running loose now.

Don't worry, according to some posters the squad is still being selected to favour Leicester.

When he was appointed everyone was over the moon about it saying how good he was and we needed him in, now we're not the all blacks(and never will be with the players we have) it's all his fault.

I must have missed evreyone saying how good AF was as a coach when he was appointed as interim. Great potential, but cannot remember him being overly praised. The coaching team did what they could and concentrated on defence. What worried me was there seemed to be no plan of attack at all. I do not expect us to be free-flowing AB types - but some idea of how we will attack would have been usefull. Yes the quality of players is not great - but that never stopped people jumping all over previous administrations.

Up until now it was always the head coach that got the blame but now for some reason it's AF to blame

Agreed this is unfair - but perhaps understandable. For a few years now Lancaster has had the Saxons playing a good brand of high tempo, high offload rugby. Farrell has been involved with Saracens who under different bosses have chosen to force very talented players to play a very retricted game plan.


Personally I think Farrell needs more experience before stepping up to the England coaching team - especially as it is pretty inexperienced anyway.

I said it before and I'll say it again - in my opinion MJ was only marginally culpable for the antics of senior squad players (and Squeaky in absentis) at the RWC.

No doubt the coaching team would have been overhauled (with SL on board) and as the squad was already in the process of being refreshed with new blood, it probably not look too different from the new side.

Knackeredknees wrote:So let me get this right, the lack of creativity in England midfield play is ALL AF's fault as the backs coach? Not what he has been told to do by let's say THE HEAD COACH? Of course not that would be silly AF was obviously acting on his own going against the head coach.

Same at Sarries, he is not the one who dictates how they play, that is done by the HEAD COACH, anything to give someone a kicking.

The backs coach has to take a lot responsibility for how the backs are playing. If he won't do that then I'm not sure what his purpose is? I'd also expect the backs coach to buy into the way the backs are asked to play. If he's not happy with that I'd expect him to walk.

England could not get the ball to their wide players, just as Sarries can't get the ball to their wide players. There's an obvious common factor, and that's why I'd much rather not see the 6 Nations coaching team restored but instead have Mike Catt introduce some new attacking ideas. If England can find a way to bring Farrell is as a defence coach then that's great, as he obviously has a lot to contribute.

Btw, I doubt the RFU had anything to do with this. I reckon Farrell just decided he made a mistake, perhaps after attending the Barbarians' game last week. After-all it's unlikely he'd have got another opportunity with England until post-2015 if he saw out his Sarries contract. Sure he probably checked if SL would still have him, but I reckon it would have been a decision he came to with his family rather than one driven by SL, who is frankly probably quite distracted right now. I think he's also got a new baby, and I can imagine there is a lot more down-time over the course of the year if you are an international coach.

I have to say I tend to agree with Portnoy regarding selections. I can't really see what any coach (MJ, SL, whoever) would have done any differently. He simply made the obvious selections. You could argue that MJ may have retained Easter, which would have been rubbish, but there isn't anyone else from the World Cup squad who would still be a viable selection that didn't play in the 6N. SL has also made some very negative selections.

I think the positivity about the current management is premature, but there is the potential in this group to do well. The most exciting aspect for me is the player base, which is nothing to do with whoever is the coach at any given time. We could probably all name 4 or 5 brilliant and realistic prospects in every position. If the game plan remains as it was during the 6N then those talents could all be wasted. I like the idea of all 4 being involved, and I have said in the past that I thought the 3 man team was one man light. However if it is Catt out and Farrell back in that would be disappointing.

LondonTiger wrote:For a few years now Lancaster has had the Saxons playing a good brand of high tempo, high offload rugby. Farrell has been involved with Saracens who under different bosses have chosen to force very talented players to play a very retricted game plan.

Farrell was coaching the Saxons with Lancaster since after the 2009 Churchill Cup.

The way I understand the situation:

Saracens lend their coach to England because Farrell has a good relationship with Lancaster (both ex England Saxons coaches).

As much is learnt about Saracen's coaching style and defensive pattern as Farrell learns about opposition players.

Saracens make it clear that Farrell's job is only for the 6 nations because they have invested a significant amount of time and energy building the club around him.

They were patient with Farrell when he was regularly away with England and injured when he first arrived at the club.

Farrell has been treated well by Saracens.

Saracens had signed a long term contract with Farrell and have recruited ex Wiganers Tomkins and Ashton as well as filling the squad with northerners. Also Farrell jr plays for Saracens.

After a relatively successful 6 nations - the RFU realise they want Farrell.

The RFU open discussions with Saracens during the period of Saracen's most pivotal part of the season -2 massive games - HC quarter final vs Clermont and top of the table clash vs Quins. Likely causing disruption. Consequently Saracens lose both games and the season is effectively over.

Farrell decides to stay. Allegedly RFU had offered a paltry compensation package to Saracens. You can't really blame Saracens for wanting significant compensation when they have invested so much in Farrell.

Last Thursday Farrell resigns - completely catches Saracens off guard.



I feel the RFU have handled this badly.

'shocked. Maybe AF/SL have being trying it on all along? And have been treating both Sarries and England as patsies.

I doubt it Portnoy. I think it's the RFU. The miserly fat cats who can't rustle up a tiny bit of cash to make the Farrell situation smooth and with no controversy.

The RFU are rolling in money if they want Farrell they shouldn't go behind Saracen's backs.

beshocked wrote:I doubt it Portnoy. I think it's the RFU. The miserly fat cats who can't rustle up a tiny bit of cash to make the Farrell situation smooth and with no controversy.

The RFU are rolling in money if they want Farrell they shouldn't go behind Saracen's backs.

Who knows 'shocked? We'll probably never know unless someone spills the beans in a cash-and-tell story in a ghosted autobiography or newspaper story.

Surely it's Farrell who handled it badly?

He seems like an honest bloke and with his son there I can't see him just leaving for the money which is what you're implying. There must have been something else.

Either disagreements with the back room staff or the management i'd imagine.

True Portnoy.

Yappysnap maybe but I am sure the RFU is involved.

I get the impression there is a lot of mystery surrounding this.

A public statement from Farrell is definitely needed in my opinion.

Yep agreed Farrel will help his cause by coming clean with what happened as at the moment he looks like the man in the wrong.

I just can't see him turning his back on Saracens and his son + wigan players etc for some extra cash.

No that's not what I am saying. I don't think Farrell has necessary left because of money.

I think Andy Farrell might have decided he does actually want to coach England. My theory is that the RFU have covertly still been courting him.

Maybe a management bust up exacerbated the situation but I don't think Farrell would leave if his future with England was not secure in some way.

Maybe he has been promised a role as defence coach after the SA tour and has been reassured that his contract with Saracens will paid out.

It's the manner of Farrell leaving which is odd. Not a word has come from him. He wouldn't take such drastic action of resignation unless his future was secured surely?

Any chance there was an agreement in place to see out the season then take up full time England defence job, and they just didn't want to unsettle the end of Sarries season? A bit cloak-and-dagger but it might explain why Sorrell was appointed so quickly and the attack-minded Catt chosen for England? Yes I am clutching at straws but it is all a bit odd...

beshocked wrote:I doubt it Portnoy. I think it's the RFU. The miserly fat cats who can't rustle up a tiny bit of cash to make the Farrell situation smooth and with no controversy.

The RFU are rolling in money if they want Farrell they shouldn't go behind Saracen's backs.

Sarries are hardly hard-up at the moment! I can't imagine AF didn't join purely down to the £60k offered. I've not read any suggestion that there were attempts to negotiate higher amounts, so surely the £60k was the opening (if somewhat derisory) offer.

Personally, I don't think any of this has got to do with money from any party, but agree the whole situation has been poorly managed. As soon as the 6N finished it was obvious SL would get the job, so it should have been at that point that some enquiries should have been made about AF. Furthermore, I feel the announcmenent of the appointment of SL should have been delayed until a coaching team was in place as the RFU has just been made to look stupid by people turning down jobs.

Jeffwinger the RFU already unsettled Saracen's season by holding talks during Saracen's two biggest games of the season - Clermont and Quins. Two games that were subsequently lost.

I certainly get the impression from Saracens that they were very surprised by this move by Farrell to resign.

beshocked wrote:Jeffwinger the RFU already unsettled Saracen's season by holding talks during Saracen's two biggest games of the season - Clermont and Quins. Two games that were subsequently lost.

I certainly get the impression from Saracens that they were very surprised by this move by Farrell to resign.

Would the talks really have unsettled them that much? Had AF accepted the job initially surely he would have stayed with Sarries until the end of the season?