Andy Farrell rumoured to be taking job at Sale.

This possibility was raised by JB on the Eggchasers podcast but he did stress that no-one at Sale has mentioned it to him.

Steve Diamond would move upstairs in this scenario. No idea what would happen to his Ireland post.

With his stock high after the Lions tour, Farrell must have some options on the table, so it depends where his ambitions lie. Mike Ford went from defence coach to club coach (with mixed results) while Shaun Edwards has stuck with Wales. If Farrell fancies a crack with England again, perhaps even the top job, then the best shop window would probably be a club coaching role.

Rob Baxter has signed a new new Exeter deal until just after the next RWC. I'd put money in him taking the job after Eddie Jones.

Diamond tried moving upstairs at Sale before. It didn't work. Sale tend to over achieve  (normally, obviously not last season) because he us such a passionate driving force. He could take a more hands off DOR role and Farrell could come in as head coach, if it worked well and settled then Diamond could step upstairs and Farrell take the promotion to DOR.

Sale do have ex-league players as attack/skills and defence coaches already.

Isn't a more overrated coach in the AP than Diamond.

Have to give Farrell Sr some credit,on reflection he's done pretty well since leaving England. Better than I expected.

I don't think Farrell Sr should work for Diamond though.

Looking at the tries conceded table of 2016-17 can have the pick of any club bar Saracens.

I believe the smart option would be Quins or Bath.

Newcastle certainly could use a defence coach too.

Diamond is a much better coach now than he was at 37 when Saracens sacked him. Saracens bumped him up to DoR far too early in his coaching career, then practically hamstrung him through selecting his coaching staff (including our friend Mike Ford) for him and interference from above and below in the structure.

He seems to be a hands on type of guy and as mentioned earlier his last move upstairs (and the appointment of Redpath) was not a success.

I don't pay close enough attention to club rugby to know that Diamond once coached Saracens

I assume his lack of success is why beshocked takes every opportunity to fire shots at him

10th in the AP would suggest he's not as good as you think.

Don't get me wrong I think it's great he's helped developed some promising youngsters but he's not the only club to do that. His work with Solomona has been good too.

His front five is not top 6 quality and the recruitments won't help with that.

Bambam partly but I also think he's overrated anyway. Some fans think he's one of the best coaches in the AP which I think is ridiculous.

Maybe Sale Sharks have a plan to bring in Farrell Sr, with a plan to bring in his son, Farrell Jr when his contract runs out.

Worked with Bath - Ford Jr and Sr......


When Farrell Jr's contract runs out, I am sure he'll get plenty of offers himself and could join his father.

Ah diamond chat came from here then. Bit simplistic to say team finished at x hence the coach is that good possibly?

Would think Farrell would have a decent chance at the saracens job if and when it becomes available.

Farrells name was one mentioned as a possible candidate for a job at Munster

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah diamond chat came from here then. Bit simplistic to say team finished at x hence the coach is that good possibly?

Would think Farrell would have a decent chance at the saracens job if and when it becomes available.

Stop wumming no 7 & 1/2. Best defence in the AP, don't need a new defence coach.

As for being DOR, I still don't think Saracens are particularly pleased of the way that Farrell Sr left Saracens to coach England so I am not completely convinced he'd be welcomed back as with open arms to look after the team.

I certainly wouldn't want him back, that's for sure. A successor to Mark Mccall as DOR is not something I've really considered at the moment but none of the following would be on the list - Ford,Farrell or Diamond.

In an ideal world, my short list would be something like Schmidt,Baxter or Cotter but I think all 3 would be unlikely.


Farrell Sr could certainly get a job in Ireland I expect as you say Marty. Don't think Munster need a new defence coach though.

I'm not wumming. I was on about Farrell as head coach down the line. I'm assuming he will want a crack at that sort of role and he's proved his worth. It's not even far fetched to say ex coach of a club who has gone on to have great success at international level could be a strong contender to come back to the club in a more senior role.

Seems like wumming to me. Being an assistant coach is one thing. Being in charge of a club is another. He needs experience in another role first to even be in contention I'd say.

If he proves himself at DOR at another club then yes, he might be in the mix but only then IMO.

It's not wumming. Farrell has a really good reputation in the game. Seems to be highly regarded at saracens as well. Come the time mccall steps aside (must be in the frame for ireland and possibly england too) farrell may well have some head coach experience. If it were to happen tomorrow I'm sure he'd go for it and be right in the running though.

It's wumming. It would be horrifying to have Farrell Sr as DOR. Saracens have been playing better rugby in his absence.

A defence coach is not needed. I'd rather have someone different.

I am not as convinced as you that he'd be a shoo in.

Farrell Sr can go to Sale, that's fine by me.

Why is it wumming. He's a top international coach who has already been with saracens. I'm again not talking about a defence coach I'm saying head coach. And you're trying to twist my point. A decent chance and right in the running does not mean shoo in.

It's wumming - you know there's no chance I would want Farrell Sr back in the coaching set up as things stand.

Perhaps if he proves himself as DOR at another club, sure he could come into the mix.

I also think making him head coach but cause trouble for the coaches currently doing a good job at Saracens.

I just don't see what Farrell Sr would offer Saracens currently. It's not as if he'll bring new ideas to the club.

It's the Saracens system that made Farrell Sr, not the other way round.

Farrell Sr's main role has been as defence coach or at Saracens hanging onto the coat tails of others.


Other ex Saracens coaches like Gustard and Borthwick would have similar issues. They are defence and forwards coaches respectively.

I'd rather see a new DOR coming in.

I don't care if you wouldn't want Farrell back. I still think he's putting himself right in the frame through his ability and achievements.

If Farrell gets a top job somewhere, and makes a success of it (which is by no means certain), then Saracens would be foolish not to at least consider him, as he knows the club, and they know him.

If I was a supporter, my reservation would be over having a head coach work with his son. Not entirely sure this has worked out best for Ford and Mallinder but it's also fair to say that things haven't gone disastrously either. Dai Young seems to be doing all right with his son, so far

Rugby fan that's the point I am making to no 7 & 1/2, that's what Farrell Sr needs to do first. Make a success as a DOR somewhere else first.

I don't have an issue with a head coach working with his son, I just currently don't see what Farrell Sr would add/contribute to Saracens as things stand.

Farrell has built his coaching reputation on defence but it's Saracens where he learnt his trade, he wouldn't be adding anything new. Also I am not convinced he has the capabilities to improve a team in attack.

A DOR needs to control everything. Farrell as someone who has made his career on being an assistant lacks that experience.


Being an assistant to Diamond I think would be a backwards step for Farrell Sr, if he has aspirations to be a top DOR.

Guess the debate is whether you think moving from being an assistant coach at the two top NH international sides to being DOR for a club side is a move up or down

beshocked wrote:Rugby fan that's the point I am making to no 7 & 1/2, that's what Farrell Sr needs to do first. Make a success as a DOR somewhere else first.

To be fair to 7 & 1/2, that's actually what he said too. [Edit] Well, not quite that. I misread some of his posts.

BamBam wrote:Guess the debate is whether you think moving from being an assistant coach at the two top NH international sides to being DOR for a club side is a move up or down

It's more responsibility being a DOR.

As an assistant you are helping others.

Different pressure.

If Farrell Sr becomes Diamond's assistant it's a move down, that's for sure.

It's not really about moving up and down - it's about different challenges and improving.

Yup not quite rugby fan. I reckon he'd be in the running if mccall left tomorrow. More likely scenario as I said above was that it's 2 years down the line when ireland or england come calling for mccall.

Its a funny one depending on role I guess

Under Lancaster, you could probably say that Farrell was effectively head coach with SL doing a DOR kind of role

With Ireland, he seems to be an assistant coach, as Schmidt is said to be a hands on coach

If Farrell is seen as someone with head coach experience for an international side, I'd say he's qualified to do the top job for a club side

No 7&1/2 wrote:I don't care if you wouldn't want Farrell back. I still think he's putting himself right in the frame through his ability and achievements.

Farrell was the attack/backs coach at Sarries, that area notably improved after he left and Sorrell came in. He was defence coach and originally backs coach but Catt came in for an unsuccessful job share on the backs/attack aspect for England. England underperformed and the defence notably improved with the appointment of Gustard the man behind the Sarries defence.

Farrell has only started to "shine" after he moved over to Ireland. Views on Farrell's career and levels of success seem to vary depending on which country you are in. Not many AP teams would be interested in recruiting him. You'd need a string character like Diamond as his DOR if you did as he is supposed to be very forceful in his views. I'm not sure he's ready for a full DOR role, I'm sure he'd back himself though.

Not very many clubs would be interested in a guy who coached at a very good saracens team..The under rated england team. 2 lions teams. And now ireland. Come off it.

No 7 & 1/2 Farrell Sr was able to hold onto the coat tails of superior coaches at Saracens like Mccall,Gustard and Sanderson IMO.

I still to this day don't really know what he added. Gustard and Sanderson ran the defence and forwards together with Mccall choosing the team. As Sam said the attack improved with Farrell Sr out of the set up.

Sanderson is still running the forwards and defence well enough in tandem with Ian Peel.

Obviously Gustard is now with England and Mccall is still DOR.


Depends what role Farrell Sr would be chasing.

I don't think we all agree on what titles like Director of Rugby and Head Coach mean. In the Premiership, some problems have undoubtedly arisen because responsibilities aren't clearly delineated.

In US sport, a General Manager hires players and coaches, and the Head Coach  runs the on-field performance. That's not how the demarcation works in rugby. Cockerill never let go of coaching and selection decisions, and it's not clear that Leicester ever wanted him to. Ron Baxter is a DoR but the club's website also calls him a Head Coach, as if the titles are interchangeable.

It's confusing because not all good player coaches are cut out for juggling budgets and player contracts. That's part of rugby which requires full attention in the professional era.

I'd say Andy Farrell can probably do more than just coach defence but he hasn't had to recruit and keep a team together (not a skill you particularly need at international level).  At Sale, Diamond would see that as his responsibility.

There's no real come back from that apart from tit for tat. Me saying look at what he's done yu saying it was all down to someone else...when it's gone well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not very many clubs would be interested in a guy who coached at a very good saracens team..The under rated england team. 2 lions teams. And now ireland. Come off it.

Depends I suppose on whether you think the England team was underrated or not. I personally think that they under achieved and cracked in crucial games with poor tactics and in game changes an issue.

Farrell is by no means a poor coach but just like Ford post England he will have to rebuild his reputation which he is doing well in Ireland. Not well enough that he will walk into an AP DOR job but well enough that he'd be considered by some teams (mainly those in the lower half). Sale would be a good hit as Diamond works well with strong characters and has previously hired league coaches to form his current staff.

Lions drew the series with NZ largely due to the defence. Surely the defence coach deserves some credit?

Think the team was a shade under a gs team for much of Farrells time with england more to do with the amount of changes required and subsequent loss in experience. There were disappointing losses but we were the equals of Wales who get many more plaudits during that time.

no 7 & 1/2

Do you seriously think that when Farrell Sr was at Saracens, the victories were built on the attacking skill of the backs and scoring lots of tries?

No of course not. It's only after Farrell has gone, that Saracens have become a better all round team.


Sam I totally agree.

I thought Lancaster's season of 2012 was good but didn't seem to be much progress after that in terms of results.

Yes Farrell Sr deserves some credit for the drawn series in NZ.

As a defence coach Farrell Sr can do a job for you if that's what you want from him.

Any more and you might struggle...

Wales get more plaudits because they beat England more times with Lancaster in charge and won more of the bigger games.

Welsh fans are happy to ignore many results when they've knocked England out of their own RWC.

It's why Gatland is still in charge of Wales.

Do you feel Farrell did such a poor job at saracens he got called up to England? Criticisms aimed at him have mainly been he's a strong minded fellow who will put his point across. Good points and bad points to that. Farrell played a big role in the saracens story. Has contributed to putting where england are now. Doing good things at ireland. 2 time tourist as a coach for the lions. I'm basically saying he's a blooming good coach and very well respected in the game.

And Wales and England were and probably still are judging by he games with jones quite evenly matched.

I am afraid beshocked that your hatred of all things to do with Family Farrell means I have to take your vehement views with rather a lot of salt.

Now I very much doubt that Farrell sr would wish to be replacing Mark McCall as that would very much be a poisoned chalice. The new coch would get no credit if things go well, and all the blame if they go badly.

Londontiger you are entitled to feel that way but I've been saying for years that Farrell Sr benefited from the work of other coaches at Saracens. It's not a sudden revelation.

I can acknowledge Farrell Sr did a good job with the Lions defence though and can give credit to Farrell Sr for some of his work with Ireland.



RFU had a hand in bringing Farrell Sr to Saracens so they wanted to make the most of the deal put in place.

About getting value for money. RFU are very much money orientated.

Well no I don't think that Farrell Sr's coaching job at Saracens was as important as numerous others at the club. He wouldn't be in top 5 of most influential coaches at the club. Would perhaps just squeak into the top 10 behind

1.Mccall - put him ahead of BV because he evolved the club after BV left.
2.BV - started the process
3.Gustard - creator of wolf pack
4.Sanderson - him and Gustard have been crucial to forwards and defence
5.Sorrell - has improved the backs so much.
6.Vickers - the kicking has been important obviously.
7.Morrow - crucial role
8.Shaw - has an understated effect. Skills coach
9.Peel - has done a good job with the scrum and forwards.
10.Farrell - just about makes the list. At the end and even then I might put doctors and physios ahead.

I speak as someone who knows the club very well.


That's without talking about the important people off the pitch.

Most important thing Farrell Sr has done for Saracens is bring his son to the club and to be fair to Farrell Jr has turned into a very accomplished player.

Farrell Jr of course has been a key player for this Saracens team.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

For once no 7 & 1/2 you are lost for words, not like you.

I agree with LT .. given your known dislike of the Farrells, its difficult to take your views as being completely sincere and objective

Definitely think your pals Nigel and Bruce should be in any list of important people at Saracens though .. they neatly avoided any punishment that the alleged salary cap breaches would have brought by threatening others involved

Bambam I can be objective which is why I've said Farrell Jr has been one of the most important players for the club. Don't need to be that knowledgeable of rugby to know that though.


Nigel Wray is indeed a crucial figure at Saracens.


My comments are completely sincere and based on knowledge of the coaching set up.

If you disagree then please do tell me where you'd rank Farrell Sr in the coaching set up - impress me with your knowledge. If you don't know - well don't pretend you do.

Not really lost for words. Just doubt you know any of the goings on with the coaching set up let alone drs etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not really lost for words.  Just doubt you know any of the goings on with the coaching set up let alone drs etc.

Well of course you'd say that. I know who the key figures are though - both on and off the field.

Yeah of course you do. Think we need to hold you up as the guy from now on.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah of course you do. Think we need to hold you up as the guy from now on.

? Sorry I don't understand the comment. Sounds like gibberish to me, care to explain it?

Being more knowledgeable than you doesn't make me "the guy", whatever that means. It's just the norm.

There's jo come back to that beshocked. I look forward to reading your enlightened opinions in the near future.

LondonTiger wrote:Lions drew the series with NZ largely due to the defence. Surely the defence coach deserves some credit?

That and the Irish defence to deny England a GS in the spring were massive and really some redemption for Farrell. After he left England I don't think many AP clubs would have considered him but those performances have rebuilt and enhanced his reputation considerably. 

As I said as head coach with Diamond could work well. If it does then Diamond may look to move upstairs again in a couple of years. I can't see Farrell taking a defence job in the AP that would be a step down.

I'm not pretending to know more.

I just find it difficult to believe that someone who was a key part of the coaching team during such a successful period is behind Vickers, Morrow, Shaw and Peel in terms of importance

If other Saracens fans post and share your views, I'll be more inclined to believe it.

BamBam wrote:I'm not pretending to know more.

I just find it difficult to believe that someone who was a key part of the coaching team during such a successful period is behind Vickers, Morrow, Shaw and Peel in terms of importance

If other Saracens fans post and share your views, I'll be more inclined to believe it.

I am talking about as a whole.

The only one I'd perhaps quibble with is Peel who hasn't been at the club that long.



Farrell has had a stint from 2009-12. 3 years so he was coaching for less time. Also Saracens have won now silverware now, Farrell is not there.

Dan Vickers has been at Saracens for 11 years. Obviously the kicking has been a crucial aspect of Saracens' game.

Joe Shaw has been at the club for 5 years. Saracens skills do seem to have increased with him in charge of the aspect.

Phil Morrow 6 years - conditioning is a very much underrated asset and he came over with Mccall.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/apr/05/saracens-phil-morrow-lions-new-zealand


If you don't believe me - ask Mccall.


As I said before the most important thing Farrell Sr has done is bring Farrell Jr into the club - that's not down to the coaching though.

You could bump up Farrell Sr's importance if that was factored in admittedly.

New Zealand have failed to win 4 tests v Northern Hemisphere opposition in the last 8 years. (or 14 years if you discount France)

I'm fairly sure that Andy Farrell was the only coach involved in all 4

St John The Enforcer wrote:New Zealand have failed to win 4 tests v Northern Hemisphere opposition in the last 8 years. (or 14 years if you discount France)

I'm fairly sure that Andy Farrell was the only coach involved in all 4

Indeed that's impressive. That was all achieved as a defence coach.

Pretty good niche admittedly but not that practical if you want to be a DOR of a club.

Different challenges, different responsibilities.

I guess it depends if Farrell is happy to stay as an assistant or wants to take on more responsibility.

Not every coach wants to become a DOR - look at the likes of Catt and Rowntree. They are happy to stay assistants.