Andy Farrell walks away from the Sarries to join England! (Gawdelpus)

First topic message reminder :

Just heard a rumour on R5.

More news as it emerges...

[ed] Ah, my favourite journal of record ...

Spoiler:

and ESPN :

Spoiler:

HongKongCherry wrote:

beshocked wrote:I doubt it Portnoy. I think it's the RFU. The miserly fat cats who can't rustle up a tiny bit of cash to make the Farrell situation smooth and with no controversy.

The RFU are rolling in money if they want Farrell they shouldn't go behind Saracen's backs.

Sarries are hardly hard-up at the moment! I can't imagine AF didn't join purely down to the £60k offered. I've not read any suggestion that there were attempts to negotiate higher amounts, so surely the £60k was the opening (if somewhat derisory) offer.

Personally, I don't think any of this has got to do with money from any party, but agree the whole situation has been poorly managed. As soon as the 6N finished it was obvious SL would get the job, so it should have been at that point that some enquiries should have been made about AF. Furthermore, I feel the announcmenent of the appointment of SL should have been delayed until a coaching team was in place as the RFU has just been made to look stupid by people turning down jobs.

Yes because a £5m loss every season doesn't point to being hard up. Saracens would have wanted compensation. £60k is paltry to break a long term contract. Particularly when Farrell's presence is important to the likes of Tomkins,Farrell Jr and Ashton as well as him being head coach.

RFU have handled this very badly. If they wanted Farrell they should have made a fair offer swiftly and with minimum fuss. Dragging it out like this helps no one. They potentially disrupted Saracen's preparation for two of their biggest games of the season.

It's not as if the RFU don't have some money lying around which they could use to smooth Farrell's departure.

I'm not sure you can argue that because both sides have lots of money they don't care about the compensation fee. The RFU wont want to be held to ransom by Saracens and Saracens will want a fair price. It's clearly about the principles of the figure paid, more than the actual financial implications.

HongKongCherry wrote:

beshocked wrote:Jeffwinger the RFU already unsettled Saracen's season by holding talks during Saracen's two biggest games of the season - Clermont and Quins. Two games that were subsequently lost.

I certainly get the impression from Saracens that they were very surprised by this move by Farrell to resign.

Would the talks really have unsettled them that much? Had AF accepted the job initially surely he would have stayed with Sarries until the end of the season?

It's the uncertainty which is potentially damaging. The situation was dragged out. This new saga is hardly going to help matters either.

Imagine how the likes of Farrell Jr,Ashton,Tomkins etc are feeling.

Just say YES or NO.

jeffwinger wrote:I'm not sure you can argue that because both sides have lots of money they don't care about the compensation fee. The RFU wont want to be held to ransom by Saracens and Saracens will want a fair price. It's clearly about the principles of the figure paid, more than the actual financial implications.

Yes it's the principle. Now the RFU will have the feeling that they can just come in and pinch coaches even though Farrell is meant to be on a long term contract.

Saracens have invested a lot of time and effort in Farrell. The RFU are taking him away from them. It looks like Saracens will get nothing either.

The thing is we do not know that this was the RFU's doing.

Farrel could have left for any number of reasons including failing to make the Prem or Heiny final, losing numerous big games, creating a poor game plan with no plan B and failing to get the best out of a star studded squad.

And for all we know he may not get any role with England now, Catt I hope will impliment a lot more structure and thinking in the backs and when attacking and SL may decide he doesn't need Farrell.

And the RFU haven't pinched anyone, Farrel if he has left to chase the England role has made his own choice, no one held a gun to his head or put him in the boot of a car.

beshocked wrote:

Yes because a £5m loss every season doesn't point to being hard up.

You want your cake and eat it don't you!

Sarries make a loss because they are able to. As you regulaarly point out, you are owned by one of the richest men in the World, which is why you can buy £10 tickets to Wembley, take players to train in far flung places, etc. If you didn't have that backing you wouldn't make that loss. £60k was a rubbish offer, but what amount would make any difference to Sarries? Certainly not an amount the RFU could or would pay.

As soon as AF was seconded all parties must have taken into account there was a chance the RFU would want him permanently. So after a successful 6N, no-one should have been surprised. The very nature of sport is that people move on. Ashton, Tomkins, etc may be disappointed AF has gone, but it happens. More importantly, he rebuked the RFU's approaches during the season, so if anything should have helped galvanise the squad - that doesn't excuse his actions - but to have a coach turn down the national side to stay with your team could only be a positive. To subsequently resign in the off-season means the impact is minimalised.

I have every sympathy for you, as I completely understand what has happened, however at least you still managed to qualify for the HC!

The Amlin's getting pretty tough these days too HongKong, i'm sure you'll enjoy it...

yappysnap wrote:The Amlin's getting pretty tough these days too HongKong, i'm sure you'll enjoy it...

As we both know, it's great if you win it (about my only happy memory of The Stoop!!), otherwise its a rubbish competition!

At least you finished above Bath HKC...

Bathman_in_London wrote:At least you finished above Bath HKC...

I still refuse to believe that happened

I understand Beschocked's annoyance that his club has possibly been ripped off because Farrell Snr is choosing to walk rather than the RFU actually buy out his contract. However, it is all seemingly a bit to neat. Farrell Snr "I'm staying", "wait, now I'm going" is somewhat out of character and Sarries would almost certainly kick up a fuss if they felt England were stealing their head coach with dodgey tactics. The quick promotion of Sorrell seemed planned as well.

Here's what I think went down. Farrell Snr wanted out after the end of the 6N, the Sarries heirarchy asked him to wait until the end of the season and if he still wanted out then they'd let him go subject to the 6 months gardening leave. It is agreed, Sorrell is shortlisted and put in place as an immeadiate successor so there's no messing about if Farrell decides to go. The dithering over the backs coach and the hiring of a temp in Catt means the position is still open and Farrell decides he wants to join Lancaster with England and the Sarries board shake him by the hand with no hard feelings.

I'm pretty sure i read in an article a while back that SL took control of attack coaching and left Farrell to focus on the defensive side of things. There was also an interview thing on the BBC website a while ago and in that several ex players/managers talked about how defence and attack are both specialist coaching positions. They went on to say that having someone who tries to do both is detriment.

I'd be happy keeping the current team intact but adding Farrell to focus on defence only. In the first game with Catt in charge i thought we looked better, more focus on the inside shoulder ball that Ashton thrives off, there were also some good lines run and some decent finishing that we may have messed up in the past (eg, wigglesworth try)

beshocked wrote:
I feel the RFU have handled this badly.

Well, perhaps.

However, if Farrell hadn't withdrawn his interest in the post a couple of months back I reckon the RFU and Sarries would probably have come to an agreement. As it is he got fed up with the negotiations (fair enough), but to blame the RFU for his change of heart, without any evidence, seems a bit harsh. If the RFU had intended this I'd suggest they picked the worst possible time for the news to break. I'd say both of Farrell's annoucements (that he was committing to Sarries, and that he was quitting) caught the RFU out, and made them look pretty daft.

Since Farrell's original decision England had clearly moved on and tried to retain Wayne Smith, a far more accomplished coach than Farrell currently is. When he turned them down they put in a trial option, with the aim of taking stock later in the summer (a perfectly sensible approach).

I think Farrell just realised this may actually be his only chance to coach England (wasn't he de facto head coach during the 6 Nations?), spotted that there was still likely to be a gap in the England coaching line-up come the autumn (3 coaches isn't enough in my view to handle a 3 year approach to a home WC), and quit (perhaps having spoken to SL, perhaps not).

I'd like Farrell involved again as he brings attitude and rugby knowledge, but I want Catt to be given a chance to run the attack and if he succeeds he should continue to hold that responsibility.

Sarries will almost certainly benefit from the change in game plan which is likely to follow. I think they have been worked out and would have struggled to finish top 4 next season without this change, so I don't feel too concerned for them.

Sam Kevin Sorrell replaced Farrell during the 6 nations as coach so obviously Saracens would have planned for a potential Farrell departure. Thoughts for the future without Farrell would have been discussed at some point.

You can tell from the responses from the Saracens camp that everyone is surprised the way Farrell left.


DaveM

I just feel that it's cloak and daggers with the RFU. I suppose it hardly helps I have always had disdain for the RFU. I see them as the prawn sandwich brigade, fat cats, greedy,incompetent, in charge of blunder after blunder.

Lots of money but do they use it for a decent cause? No, just use it to feather their own nests. Extortionate tickets at Twickenham - bleeding England fans dry. The appalling black strip at the world cup. Wasting money on pointless head hunters. It goes on and on.

If the RFU had shown themselves to be competent and go through a normal process I would be less damning.

For all we know the fat cats at the RFU watched the recent England vs Barbarians game and went "£$%^! where's the defence? Let's bring Farrell back in!"


Saracens would have struggled to finish top 4 next season? Pretty bold statement seeing as that in the last 3 seasons they haven't looked like missing out.

I suppose it hardly helps I have always had disdain for the RFU. I see them as the prawn sandwich brigade, fat cats, greedy,incompetent, in charge of blunder after blunder.

I suspect that's the majority view on the RFU to be honest.

Sarries will almost certainly benefit from the change in game plan which is likely to follow. I think they have been worked out and would have struggled to finish top 4 next season without this change, so I don't feel too concerned for them.

A change in game plan may well help but not half as much as the return of Brown and Burger will. I still think those two are the main reason Sarries won their title and to make the top four without either was quite a good showing.

Sam we wouldn't be wrong about the RFU.


I agree Brown and Burger are huge. Especially when the breakdown and backrow is so important these days.

Certainly Brown and Burger have a huge workrate and are at the heart of the Saracens defensive effort.

Their presence would have been handy in some of the big games they missed out on.

The young guns Fraser and Wray have done pretty well though given the circumstances.

Brown should be back for the beginning of the season. I think Burger is back around November/December - he'll be needed for the HC!

I think Brown and Burger certainly are key to your defensive efforts as they free up Joubert and Brits from the work in the tight as well as adding loads of pressure onto the opposition 10. Where they were particularly destructive (mainly Burger) was in the kick chase, where average big high kicks down the throat of the opposition 15 were suddenly turned into lethal turnovers and penalties as big hits were followed by panic and pressure.

I agree about the pressure on the opposition 10. Really wanted to see Burger and Brown testing Ford.

Joubert and Brits haven't really been in good form. As you suggest - maybe because they are missing the efforts of Brown and Burger.

I genuinely feel that backrowers are some of the most important players on the pitch. Arguably the most.
The likes of Mccaw,Warburton,Robshaw,SOB,Ferris,Dusatoir,Harinorduquy, Parisse are basically the heartbeat of their sides. Generally the captains too.

I agree about the pressure on the opposition 10. Really wanted to see Burger and Brown testing Ford.

He is pretty fleet footed and tends to flourish against sides that try to rush him in defence. He carved open one of only two Tigers breaks in the game at Welford Rd at the start of the season by catching out a Sarries flanker with a step and go, he did the same against Hodgson and Barritt in the Semi Final and created a neat try against Wasps as well. The main problem for him will be if he takes a poor pass and gets the pressure whilst standing still. Brown or Burger catch him in that situation and he's toast.