Rugby as a World sport - and nimbyism

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:38 am

I suspect that most posters here want to see Rugby growing globally (its a common argument on the lines of "if we want to see the game expand".

But as soon as anyone suggests a method of expanding the game, the nimbys turn up in their droves making wild accusations about imagined obsessions and bias against the 'other' sides and teams.

So. In what ways can Rugby Union can be encouraged and assisted expand to a global level without some teams and some nations having to take a hit? I'll leave it to you to provide suggestions and I look forward to being enlightened...

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:41 am

Firstly I am a plain old Afrikaans lad with a relatively good account of the english language, now I know I can google it, but please explain to me what nimbyism is.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:43 am

biltongbek wrote:Firstly I am a plain old Afrikaans lad with a relatively good account of the english language, now I know I can google it, but please explain to me what nimbyism is.

Nimby= "Not in my back yard" - a trait guaranteed to make you "popular" with developers and town planners everywhere

by doctor_grey Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:44 am

NIMBY
Not In My Back Yard

Euphamism for I support a concept as long as it doesn't impact me, (negatively).

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:46 am

thanks.

For a moment there I thought I need to find an English dictionary that is more complete.

by whocares Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:48 am

Expanding does not mean developping 2nd-3rd tier nations at the expense of 1st tier so called average ones.
Expand would mean target specific nations who have a good level of grassroot rugby, decent infrastrure a decent semi-pro eague and improve their exposure by playing more games against 1st tier nations.
Georgia could be at the level of Italy in less than 5 years time if they were playing against the home nations 4-5 time a year rather than against romania.

by Guest Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:48 am

When people say grow the game, are there specific countries or regions they refer to?

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:50 am

Well our back yard is quite busy to be honest.

The one positive thing I can say about SARU is their willingness to help other nations.

We also have our South African Legends who are continiously coaching or finding sponsors for other African nations to help them with equipment and such.

SARU has got a lot of invlovment with developing talent at school level during Craven week for Namibia and Zimbabwe and at senior level Argentina has Pampas and we also have Namibia participating in our Vodacom cup.

So our Backyard is pretty busy.

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:51 am

I guess that makes us IMBY

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:53 am

I forgot to mention we also send a lot of players to play in other backyards as well, even in their biggest stadiums in their national colours, so we are pretty much helping everyone.

So maybe that makes us. EBY

Everyone's back yard.

by mystiroakey Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:54 am

EBOP i think us in europe need to concentrate on growing in europe.

i think argentina neede to look at the south american countries around it

i think oz,nz etc need to really tap into the love there have within that region there and intergrate the islands,japan,china etc.

south africa need to help out africa.

etc etc

by mystiroakey Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:04 am

BTW Portnay- i agree with your stance completely- everyone seems happy discussing growing the again untill it affects them!!

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:22 am

biltongbek wrote:I forgot to mention we also send a lot of players to play in other backyards as well, even in their biggest stadiums in their national colours, so we are pretty much helping everyone.

So maybe that makes us. EBY

Everyone's back yard.

So why so many institutionally constructed glass ceilings in the SH? biltong?

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:26 am

Economics Portnoy.

The reality is SANZAR can barely compete with the salaries in the north and hence run extremely tight budgets which makes it barely sustainable.

The rest of the SH simply doesn't have the infrastructure or ticket sales and broadcasting possibilities to make it viable, so you'll find like SA does, they help where they can, but SANZAR are playing a survival game

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:31 am

biltongbek wrote:Economics Portnoy.

The reality is SANZAR can barely compete with the salaries in the north and hence run extremely tight budgets which makes it barely sustainable.

The rest of the SH simply doesn't have the infrastructure or ticket sales and broadcasting possibilities to make it viable, so you'll find like SA does, they help where they can, but SANZAR are playing a survival game

Economics is the science of optimal resource management Biltong. Not accountancy. Which is the bean-counting you are referring to.

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:35 am

Well you can term it any way you want, the reality is SANZAR has those glass ceilings in place for that specific reason, none other.

Just look at the inclusion of argentina now, IRB had to assist financially otherwise it would have been impossible.

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:43 am

Argentina would have been better of in the European time time zone area.

Or is Asia expected to fend for itself?

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:44 am

I don't know why Japan isn't involved with SANZAR as they have an audience and infrastructure, perhaps they don't feel they can compete?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:45 am

Portnoy wrote:
biltongbek wrote:Economics Portnoy.

The reality is SANZAR can barely compete with the salaries in the north and hence run extremely tight budgets which makes it barely sustainable.

The rest of the SH simply doesn't have the infrastructure or ticket sales and broadcasting possibilities to make it viable, so you'll find like SA does, they help where they can, but SANZAR are playing a survival game

Economics is the science of optimal resource management Biltong. Not accountancy. Which is the bean-counting you are referring to.

It's a bit of both in NZ's case Portnoy - the NZRU know it needs $100m (£50m) a year to run the domestic game - including the nurseries of amateur club and junior rugby, and it uses it's main cash cow, the ABs to earn that money. Unfortunately the populations of the PIs are (a) very small (Samoa and Tonga put together make up less the population of Leicester, and even if you count the diaspora living in NZ and Aus there are less than 500,000 Samoan/Tongan people all together) and (b) rather poor so sadly, and practically, there is little more that can be done to develop their game beyond what we already do, which is most of their player development.

Honestly, allowing more space in SuperXV teams for PI-tied players would be a good thing, as would playing the occasional game in the PIs (though that would be a money loser for both NZ and the PIs - and sanctions against the military government in Fiji currently rule out the ABs playing there), but that's about it - ultimately our back yard is already punching well above it's weight.

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:51 am

portnoy

You may not realise it but NZRFU does a lot to promote rugby in a variety of ways and places around the globe that you may not realise, and I'm not just talking about the old addage that wherever you go in the World, and theres rugby, then there will be a New zealander not far away.

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:51 am

Seems that that makes more sense for the PIs to be treated as a nation akin to the WIndies in cricket.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:53 am

Portnoy wrote:Seems that that makes more sense for the PIs to be treated as a nation akin to the WIndies in cricket.

That would be great, except they don't like each other very much. Fiji and Tonga nearly went to war last year over a couple of disputed atolls.

by Guest Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:53 am

Just out of curiosity, what things to Wales do in their backyard?

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:54 am

gardening. Whistle

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:55 am

Dont understand, The pacific Island nations arent bundled up in one like the Windies???

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:57 am

Unlike the SANZAR unions then auk?

by Guest Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:59 am

biltongbek wrote:gardening.

Only when it's not raining though ay? Seriously though, we've had some good responses from knowledgable SH posters about some of the things we do to promote/support the game. I'm sure you do, I'm just not aware of them, whaddaya got NH?

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:00 am

No, The New Zealand,South Africa and Australia unions are free standing rugby entities. I dont understand?

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:04 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Dont understand, The pacific Island nations arent bundled up in one like the Windies???

Portnoy is suggesting they should be - there are 15 independent Caribbean nations that contribute players to the WI cricket team. Granted spread over a significantly smaller geographic area than Samoa, Fiji and Tonga, but still, the Guyana-Jamaica-Antigua triangle is around 250,000 square miles (give or take a lot, i'm guestimating off Google maps)

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:09 am

Kiwireddevil wrote:
aucklandlaurie wrote: Dont understand, The pacific Island nations arent bundled up in one like the Windies???

Portnoy is suggesting they should be - there are 15 independent Caribbean nations that contribute players to the WI cricket team. Granted spread over a significantly smaller geographic area than Samoa, Fiji and Tonga, but still, the Guyana-Jamaica-Antigua triangle is around 250,000 square miles (give or take a lot, i'm guestimating off Google maps)

Even they struggle to sort their politics and selection out on occassions.

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:09 am

Just joshin' auk. Pay no heed. What I'm saying that (not knowing the politics of that part of the world, that a PIs national side could be assembled on a regular basis as has been done on occasion in the past?).

The Laws of the game might have to be redrawn on the lines of the final score or last man standing.

by Guest Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:10 am

It'd be like Wales merging with England. Merging the islands into one would be unpalatable for them. I know they've tried it, but that hasn't taken hold and probably for that reason. They're their own countries and proud of it.

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:10 am

Then Portnoy's never seen a Samoa Versus Tonga brawl.

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:12 am

EBOP wrote:
biltongbek wrote:gardening.

Only when it's not raining though ay? Seriously though, we've had some good responses from knowledgable SH posters about some of the things we do to promote/support the game. I'm sure you do, I'm just not aware of them, whaddaya got NH?

To be very honest, I think they do a lot less than us.

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:15 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Then Portnoy's never seen a Samoa Versus Tonga brawl.

Rugby as a World sport - and nimbyism Smiley-violent067

Rugby as a World sport - and nimbyism Smiley-violent111

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:17 am

Portnoy wrote:Just joshin' auk. Pay no heed. What I'm saying that (not knowing the politics of that part of the world, that a PIs national side could be assembled on a regular basis as has been done on occasion in the past?).

The Laws of the game might have to be redrawn on the lines of the final score or last man standing.

The IRB possibly could pave the way for a reform of the Pacific Islanders, I've dug out an excerpt from the Samoan RU's reasons for pulling out of the Pacific Islands Rugby Alliance ("interesting" string of letters there).

The original concept was basically to provide an opportunity (to play) every two years. There were two aims, to get revenue to help in the running of the activities of the unions (and) to provide players with the opportunity to play against tier one sides.

But the International Rugby Board (IRB) changed the schedule for the Pacific Islands team to play every four years. Every four years won't generate the revenue needed to run our rugby.

-SRU Chairman, Peter Schuster

If a Lions-style tour in the NH happened every 4 years, and a 4 yearly SH one on the alternate (running in even-numbered years to miss the RWC/Lions years) I think it could work.

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:20 am

Kiwireddevil wrote:If a Lions-style tour in the NH happened every 4 years, and a 4 yearly SH one on the alternate (running in even-numbered years to miss the RWC/Lions years) I think it could work.

I would love to see that. It will at last show us what happens when you put our forward play together with the elctric play of the antipodean nations, imagine Meyer sees that, it could show him the way forward.

Rugby as a World sport - and nimbyism Smiley-excited001

Rugby as a World sport - and nimbyism Smiley-excited002

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:20 am

I'm not surprised tha NH posters are absent in their droves.

In the rugby world up here, you can't walk down the road without tripping over a sacred cow.

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:22 am

Portnoy wrote:I'm not surprised tha NH posters are absent in their droves.

In the rugby world up here, you can't walk down the road without tripping over a sacred cow.

Well then therein lies the biggest obstacle.

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:23 am

Reminds me of that remit that New Zealand took to the IRB last year to allow Tier i players to also play for their Islands of heritage, It was soundly defeated when the Celtic nations vetoed it with a block vote, Now why would they do that I wonder?

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:29 am

I am sure it has nothing to do with the fact that these PI players are, big, fast, athletic, well conditioned and well coached, apart from their natural talent of course. Whistle

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:32 am

biltongbek wrote:I am sure it has nothing to do with the fact that these PI players are, big, fast, athletic, well conditioned and well coached, apart from their natural talent of course.

And getting a bit too close for comfort on the IRB rankings.

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:32 am

biltongbek wrote:
Portnoy wrote:I'm not surprised tha NH posters are absent in their droves.

In the rugby world up here, you can't walk down the road without tripping over a sacred cow.
Well then therein lies the biggest obstacle.

Quite.

https://www.606v2.com/t30338-as-i-am-a-proponent-of-ditching-scotland-and-italy-from-the-6ns-am-i-feicked-again

https://www.606v2.com/t30205-sorting-out-the-european-club-competitions-conundrum-my-way

https://www.606v2.com/t29522-a-phoenix-italian-side-must-be-rewarded-with-an-hec-place-after-8-games

https://www.606v2.com/t29395-japan-a-northern-or-southern-hemisphere-country

Nobody wants to rock the boat as it would cause panic.

by Guest Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:33 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Reminds me of that remit that New Zealand took to the IRB last year to allow Tier i players to also play for their Islands of heritage, It was soundly defeated when the Celtic nations vetoed it with a block vote, Now why would they do that I wonder?

Well done the celts, that's growing the global game clap

by **Biltong** Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:36 am

Yeah, Portnoy I read those threads, but it got to me after a while, so I gave up on understanding their stance regarding it.

It seems tradition is so strong there, nothing will make a differing impact or will be allowed to be considered

by CurlyOsp Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:47 am

In Wales we're still very much in the middle of getting our own house in order. In the Southern Hem, you're sitting comfortably at the top of the heirarchy, reaching that level is our main priority in the Northern Hem so we can't afford to influence others as much.

For example; there's been a lot of focus on promoting the game in North Wales recently, as it's predominently played in the South. A huge amount of time and money went into the setting up of RGC 1404, a Northern region (including the signing of 9 Canadian players) who are now currently playing in the Welsh Premiership. Their home ground, Colwyn Bay, has hosted Wales u20's games, which has done wonders for promoting the sport and the benefits to local facilties and player development are really starting to show.

So if this scheme is succesfull and our already established regional acadamies continue going strong then we may soon be in a position to have greater global influence, until then, you're in the drivers seat Wink

by Effervescing Elephant Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:48 am

EBOP, when you say 'Celts' to whom do you refer? Are you lumping Scotland, Wales and Ireland together? Not sure what your beef is here.

by Portnoy Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:50 am

If a 4th region is potentially in place Curly, would it stay in the 1st division?

by aucklandlaurie Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:53 am

Carpe Diem wrote:EBOP, when you say 'Celts' to whom do you refer? Are you lumping Scotland, Wales and Ireland together? Not sure what your beef is here.

Yes, Ireland Wales and Scotland all together.

by geoff998rugby Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:55 am

aucklandlaurie wrote: Reminds me of that remit that New Zealand took to the IRB last year to allow Tier i players to also play for their Islands of heritage, It was soundly defeated when the Celtic nations vetoed it with a block vote, Now why would they do that I wonder?

Please explain what this entailed and we can debate logically.
It is not clear to me from the above

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