Ireland were well beaten

First topic message reminder :

I'm sure you can translate.

Clearly the NH has not caught/catching up with the SH.

Any NH side would have lost by 40 to that NZ side today. They were class. What is frightening is how gutted they look when they concede just one try. The could win 107-5 and still be devastated by that one score against.

It is their counter attack and drawing in the defender that simply cannot be replicated up north.


Edit by RD: if you change the title back to something offensive again, expect further action to be taken.

Nope, it is from YOUR point of view dreamer, don't put "moderator" into it. If the other moderators agree, I will listen. We have already had this discussion in another topic, where you also think I find it hard to be disagreed with. This is from your personal POV. I find it strange that Logie knows so much about me as a poster as well despite the fact I have never interacted with him before - you wouldn't have anything to do with that, would you now?

I will lay things out for you here. If I went onto a welsh thread, and said "the welsh think they have the best players in the world, and feel a slight sense of entitlement to being better than they are" we both know for a FACT you would be the first person to tell me I was talking rubbish. I would have nothing to back up that statement either, because it would be rubbish. You would not be happy, and you would think I was being disrespectful to welsh fans, or simply trying to WUM. Fair enough?

There is a difference between disagreeing with someone (which I can do absolutely fine btw, if you have been to any irish threads you would see that) and simply insulting someone's intelligence or knowledge to make your point. You have already done that yourself today, while I respected everything you said. You told me I did not understand the welsh back row at all, you found it strange that I didn't see what you saw etc. THAT is called struggling with disagreements. Logie is doing the same here, insulting my knowledge of the game to make his point stronger. If you can find anywhere where I have done that to anyone, you let me know. In fact I have apologised to a poster in the past for doing that. If I am in the wrong, I am usually the first person to admit to it and apologise.

Finally, if a moderator is going to hold a personal grudge against me, I certainly won't be on this forum much longer.

With respect dreamer Logie has suggested that in a board made for debate we cannot question someone opinions by asking for explanation and facts to back up assertions made is a pretty silly statement for someone to make. Rory has held his hands up in the tone of his posts, and if people are judged to be aggressive then so be it and that is for you to judge. But to suggest that on a board for debate posters cannot examine someone's posts by questioning the truth behind statements is against the nature of this board. That is what people are objecting to in Logie's posts and the sort of view that states we cannot question other people's points of view is what ruins debates.

Hook - he wasn't saying you couldn't question them, it was more a suggestion to moderate how they were responding. Honestly, to see numerous posters ganging up on someone for having a differing opinion really isn't very nice to see.

[quote="Rory_Gallagher"] You say I dismiss and disrespect people's views. Give me an example?

okay, how about when you respond to a comment I made with;

'okay, without explaining myself, I think you just posted a load of rubbish. That is my opinion. Is that helpful?'

Don't think I need to answer the other charges your honour.

Look, I come in peace, let me just say you come across as aggressive and unduly argumentative at times. If I'm misunderstand your tone then I apologise.

Advice has been posted by one other poster called Logie. Someone I have never even interacted before on this forum, yet strangely now knows everything about my posts. Advice has been given to him by myself and plenty of others here too, about why we are asking Gordy to explain what he means. Asking, not demanding. I genuinely asked him to explain. There was no problems whatsoever until Logie showed up. I think the other posters on this topic would agree, or anyone who actually reads the topic.

I have no problems with your moderating skills, but with your seeming personal grudge against me, which pops up from time to time. The colour of ink on a computer screen doesn't exactly hold super powers, your personal opinions can still get in the way here and cause you to take sides. I think you know that yourself.

rugbydreamer wrote:Hook - he wasn't saying you couldn't question them, it was more a suggestion to moderate how they were responding. Honestly, to see numerous posters ganging up on someone for having a differing opinion really isn't very nice to see.

Dreamer, I hope you see how hypocritical that statement is, after you told me earlier in the day that my opinion can't be taken seriously as many others seem to disagree with me on that particular topic. Isn't that ganging up on someone? I stood up for my opinions and backed them with examples, and tried to explain as best I could, regardless of who agreed or disagreed. Nobody has ganged up on Gordy, they have asked him to give examples and back up his opinions.

Problems are being created here that do not exist.

Actually, I find it very offensive you are calling my moderation capabilities into question Rory. Like I said, you got any issues with thinking I have a personal grudge, let others in the Admin team know so they can monitor the situation, because I can assure you, you are very mistaken. I honestly think you need to learn to deal with people who disagree with you without seeing it as a personal attack.

I also did not ask for anyone to agree with me either, otherwise this forum would be a boring place. I ask for people to respect what I say though, and not resort to questioning either my knowledge of the game or my intelligence. This argument is going in clear circles.

Sorry Dreamer, Logie directly stated that 'And he has every right to express his opinion without needing to explain himself'. Obviously every poster has the right to say what they want, but it is the nature of debate that as many posters as disagree can speak up and question that. That is not 'ganging up' as you put it. In fact more people objected to Rory's view on the Welsh back row earlier and some of the comments towards him, from yourself included, were absolutely no worse that what has been in this thread. In regards to behaviour, you and Logie are right and hopefully that can be respected. But the tone people use is entirely subjective to others- what you see as 'aggressive' may not have been the intention.

rugbydreamer wrote:Actually, I find it very offensive you are calling my moderation capabilities into question Rory. Like I said, you got any issues with thinking I have a personal grudge, let others in the Admin team know so they can monitor the situation, because I can assure you, you are very mistaken. I honestly think you need to learn to deal with people who disagree with you without seeing it as a personal attack.

Well dreamer, I feel that it is you who struggles when people disagree with you. So who does that make right here? Probably neither, as I have said, things can be misunderstood on a forum, and disagreements can happen that probably wouldn't in real life.

I am sorry to have offended you, I do not mean to question your moderation capabilities, but your personal grudge against me.

That's fair enough Hook, but that attitudes on this thread displayed by some Irish posters, is exactly why I don't often post on Irish threads.That's all I'm going to say as I don't think you'll agree with me on this

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Actually, I find it very offensive you are calling my moderation capabilities into question Rory. Like I said, you got any issues with thinking I have a personal grudge, let others in the Admin team know so they can monitor the situation, because I can assure you, you are very mistaken. I honestly think you need to learn to deal with people who disagree with you without seeing it as a personal attack.

Well dreamer, I feel that it is you who struggles when people disagree with you. So who does that make right here? Probably neither, as I have said, things can be misunderstood on a forum, and disagreements can happen that probably wouldn't in real life.

I am sorry to have offended you, I do not mean to question your moderation capabilities, but your personal grudge against me.

I don't have a personal grudge Rory.

And of course I don't like people disagreeing with me, I love to be right I have no problem debating or arguing points with anyone else on this forum though, Rory, and that should tell you something and it sure isn't anything to do with how I post.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Finally, if a moderator is going to hold a personal grudge against me, I certainly won't be on this forum much longer.

I dont think you are alone in feel that way Rory. But there is no point to argue and break the thread too is my mind. Best to PM the other moderator and let the evidence of opinion mounting.

Well I think this thread has run its course, RD? I think all comments were valid (including logie and Gordy's, albeit some of them incorrect) but the thread was just a wind-up from the moment it was posted.

You could be right Morg

Dreamer I have no problem with anyone on these boards bar the odd WUM here and there. I have posted on this thread, and the one that Rory is alluding to on the Welsh back row and see no difference in tone from posters in either. You questioned Rory on his views, he offered evidence, you rebutted etc etc. He found you patronising and you found him aggressive. Personally I found neither of your posts to be either, but then it is entirely subjective. However there is no point is making statements such as 'but the attitudes on this thread displayed by some Irish posters, is exactly why I don't often post on Irish threads'. That is very unhelpful here as anyone could say the same about going into Welsh threads or English threads or Scottish threads, or various club threads. It's not an attitude that helps anyone here. All we need are deep breaths here!

Personal grudges vendettas Jesus some people take internet forums far too seriously

I know they could Hook, that's why I posted that bit in ordinary text and not in red, as it's my own personal view on Irish threads.

When I see another poster coming on here and expressing that concern about aggression etc though, I can't just not act, hope you can understand that

Agree with you on the deep breaths

Cymroglan wrote:Personal grudges vendettas Jesus some people take internet forums far too seriously

truth!

Well Cymroglan I know for a true that some poster feel that some moderator sometimes use the "moderator" power to control the express of the opinions and make win the argument to personal preference of the moderator and not about just enforce the forum rules.

Is important in the world? no probably. But in the forum if you are going to post then it is fair to let know the community if you think there is some unfair.

rugbydreamer wrote:Hook - he wasn't saying you couldn't question them, it was more a suggestion to moderate how they were responding. Honestly, to see numerous posters ganging up on someone for having a differing opinion really isn't very nice to see.

Nobody seems to mind when we do it to Sin é

Dreamer, of course and no problems from me.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Well Cymroglan I know for a true that some poster feel that some moderator sometimes use the "moderator" power to control the express of the opinions and make win the argument to personal preference of the moderator and not about just enforce the forum rules.

Is important in the world? no probably. But in the forum if you are going to post then it is fair to let know the community if you think there is some unfair.

No this is just your opinion of Biltong and a couple other mods because they know your true ID and have pointed out the flaws in your wum articles.

Thanks for the back up rugberdreamer, I feel bad you have somehow been dragged into this!

I really don't know why this has turned into a row. For the record Rory, Im an ulster fan and frequent the boards a lot without always posting. We have interacted before, but not to any great extent and I certainly don't have any personal agenda against you at all.

I will say you can sound a little dismissive and aggressive at times in your posts, and that comes across as arrogant and disrespectful, I was trying to temper this, but if I misunderstood the tone I humbly apologise.

You can also imagine some our frustrations when posters go from thread to thread deliberately winding posters up and ruining debate for those that genuinely want it. A certain poster did this in this thread which lead to this blowup, and he has just done the same in another thread. I find that more frustrating than any of the criticisms of moderators who personally I have not seen to be anything but fair in their moderation.

Morgannwg wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Well Cymroglan I know for a true that some poster feel that some moderator sometimes use the "moderator" power to control the express of the opinions and make win the argument to personal preference of the moderator and not about just enforce the forum rules.

Is important in the world? no probably. But in the forum if you are going to post then it is fair to let know the community if you think there is some unfair.

No this is just your opinion of Biltong and a couple other mods because they know your true ID and have pointed out the flaws in your wum articles.

Not truthful sorry. I am most admiring to Biltong and today only have one small misunderstand about a sentence he made and there was some frustration going around the circle about my describe of Springboks. And also Blitong was most welcome to me and not try to make I am somebody in disguise so this is some ally.

Not a problem, Logie

Can we get back to debatating...what team would you guys like to see put out for the second test?

Leinster- does it matter!

however i think irelands only chance is to somehow think about countering the kiwis threat- not sure if that is possible- but you need your strongest- toughest lads

Any news on Healy for you guys at all? He didn't look happy walking off the pitch today.

I think they will wait and get the assessment in a day or so dreamer. Is hard to tell from so soon when the swelling and even if is need to be scan and show something bad the coach will make close the secret until they have a plan is my mind.

mystiroakey wrote:Leinster- does it matter!

however i think irelands only chance is to somehow think about countering the kiwis threat- not sure if that is possible- but you need your strongest- toughest lads

Of course it matters we cant just give up...this is a very bad period for irish rugby but things will pick up again once kidney and the rest of our coaching team are changed

I agree with Mystiroakey, I don't think it matters. From almost the top to bottom the Irish team is nearing closer to crisis all the time. The IRFU have to take some blame on making the exact same mistake with Kidney pre World Cup and they did with O'Sullivan in a move of almost mind boggling incompetence. Kidney has to take the blame for his tactical vision for the team, whatever it might be, and his selections and his failure to employ a dedicated backs coach. Les Kiss has to be criticised for once again taking his eye off the ball with a poorly drilled defensive unit. Some senior players like BOD and Heaslip need to be criticised for a real lack of leadership on the pitch. Other players should be criticised for some very poor decision making.

awop - true, hopefully it was just a stinger and nothing too serious for him.


I think Ireland need to drop Heaslip, personally. I watched him closely today and he just wasn't putting in the work required at this level, he paled in comparison to the likes of Healy and Ryan.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:Leinster- does it matter!

however i think irelands only chance is to somehow think about countering the kiwis threat- not sure if that is possible- but you need your strongest- toughest lads

Of course it matters we cant just give up...this is a very bad period for irish rugby but things will pick up again once kidney and the rest of our coaching team are changed

Things Ireland can do:

1. Stop kick away in play to the all blacks back three. Is always end in disaster.
2. Starve of the ball. Ireland winning the breakdown mostly and they can play multiple phase and keep the ball and not have ROG keep kick it away. And Sexton kick it away. Just patience.
3. Make the first up tackles and keep the defensive line. There was too many just miss tackles today.

Always when all blacks beaten is the same elements. Composure. Phase. Keep the ball. Build the pressure. They break just like anyone else when they don't get breathe space and turn on the style.

Ireland have no chance of beating NZ no matter who they put out. But they are now in a position where they need to respond.

You would have to wonder what Irelands initial goals and targets were for the tour. Publically of course they will have said they wanted a win, were capable of it and the usual soundbites but privately I think they just wanted a performance.

As this thread is a testament to, their own fans are now on the teams back, or at least the managements. Further drubbings will only increase this and undermine the confidence of the team. Normally after been hammered like this, a team can say "well it least it cant get any worse" but worryingly for Ireland, it can! I think trying to instill some confidence and motivation will be the biggest challenge for Kidney at the moment. What do you do in his position? Put out the same side and hope for the best? Or risk some less experienced players suffering a mauling and drain their confidence? Certain changes should be made. I think Heaslip is lucky to be in the team and only there on reputation at this stage. Even his leadership qualities have faded. O'Driscoll must stay, they need his experience and leadership. McFadden is very mediocre whether at wing or centre so thats another spot that is up for grabs.

rugbydreamer wrote:awop - true, hopefully it was just a stinger and nothing too serious for him.


I think Ireland need to drop Heaslip, personally. I watched him closely today and he just wasn't putting in the work required at this level, he paled in comparison to the likes of Healy and Ryan.

Hes just not getting over the gain line enough...id like to see him droped and have o mahony at 8 and mcglaughlin at 6

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:awop - true, hopefully it was just a stinger and nothing too serious for him.


I think Ireland need to drop Heaslip, personally. I watched him closely today and he just wasn't putting in the work required at this level, he paled in comparison to the likes of Healy and Ryan.

Hes just not getting over the gain line enough...id like to see him droped and have o mahony at 8 and mcglaughlin at 6

He looks out of shape to me LeinsterFan, to be honest. Think dropping him would be the kick up the rear he really needs.

I like O'Mahony at 8 though, am a big fan of his. Think he's got a big future for Ireland coming his way.

For me Heaslip should be entering the prime of his career now and he looks lazy and slightly out of shape. I think he needs to lose a bit of weight. That's just my personal opinion. I am not saying he is 'out of shape' by the standards of us amateurs, but he just looks slightly heavy. That said I thought out forwards gave us a pretty decent platform to attack New Zealand. We can look and say the entire front row were between good and excellent, Ryan was very good I thought, O'Brien was out best player. O'Mahony did decently, while Heaslip and Tuohy were quiet. Our problem is that we don't have any 9 who is a good enough distributor at this level. Murray is painfully slow at times and decision making can be poor. For me Redden is very average at this level and his passing in truth isn't that much better. He may clear the ball away better, but his passing seems to be static. The great thing about Stringer was that his pass was in front of the out half and forced the entire back line to take a forward step to take the ball. Both our 9s pass at the 10, meaning more often than not Sexton has static ball. It's hard for any back line then to excel from that, especially with a 12 who has play 13 for Ireland for almost 15 years, a 13 who has played then a handful of times, one winger on his debut who is still learning his positional game, and a nothing winger who is an average centre. In truth, Kidney or not, what is the solution to our problem at 9?

Clone Stringer with Murray?



Reddan would be your best bet for the remaining test matches I think. An improvement on Murray anyways.

Imo i hate seeing earls playing in the centre...he's a winger and nothing else...what do you guys think of earls?

I don't like him (don't know why, just don't!) but thought he actually looked dangerous at centre for you guys today, linked up really well with Zebo at times. Don't think defensively he's quite there though. Might be better for him and Ireland if he came in off the wing instead.

I really don't think Reddan is that much better in truth. His decision making, especially his kicking, can be absolutely dreadful. He should start in the second test, but I don't think there is a huge chasm between him and Murray that some suggest. Put it like this, bar the Italians, I don't think either scrum half who get in any other Six Nations squad let along starting 15. It is a massive weakness for us more than any arguments over the back row, centres or wingers that will emerge this week.

Boss has been in fantastic form this year for leinster id love to see him in there

rugbydreamer wrote:I don't like him (don't know why, just don't!) but thought he actually looked dangerous at centre for you guys today, linked up really well with Zebo at times. Don't think defensively he's quite there though. Might be better for him and Ireland if he came in off the wing instead.

Zebo was out of his depth.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:I don't like him (don't know why, just don't!) but thought he actually looked dangerous at centre for you guys today, linked up really well with Zebo at times. Don't think defensively he's quite there though. Might be better for him and Ireland if he came in off the wing instead.

Zebo was out of his depth.

Who actually was in their depth?

Some players were in their depth showing substance over style, but too many were like Lennox Lewis flattering to deceive against mediocre opposition but against the best - brutally exposed.

I thought bod was ok. He directly stopped Reads try after the kick off by swiping the ball away just as it was being scored. He has a lot of respect as a player here and i reckon will still figure prominently.

Smiths passing gave us some width we havnt had for a while and it showed by the time dagg latched onto the ball with plenty of space in front, opening up the irish defence. Its an area bod is going to have to rearrange his troops around as the abs will look to expose it further.

I dont think the scores will get much bigger next test as it will be the irish who will make the most improvement. Simply because. ... they have too.

The thing is that Ireland were probably playing exactly as Kidney wanted them to - parity in the scrums, solid lineout, edge at the breakdown, clueless in the backs.