Ireland were well beaten

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I'm sure you can translate.

Clearly the NH has not caught/catching up with the SH.

Any NH side would have lost by 40 to that NZ side today. They were class. What is frightening is how gutted they look when they concede just one try. The could win 107-5 and still be devastated by that one score against.

It is their counter attack and drawing in the defender that simply cannot be replicated up north.


Edit by RD: if you change the title back to something offensive again, expect further action to be taken.

There was that one occaision, was it Smiths try when we had 3 players covering and they botched it up... that was poor but the back 3 were poor as a unit generally in defence.

It's easy to critisize every Irish player after a match like that. They were playing a superb team in their own back yard.

I'm not sure what any team could have done to supress that black wave; certainly not any of the other teams I watched tonight. So less of the 'told you so' mullarkey.

Take the positives, a very steep learning curve and probably just what Ireland needs at this stage - that's how the best do it - now get on with it.

It isn't just NZ who we play this badly against though. Our backs offer no threat to any half decent defence in world rugby. I don't think another big loss is what we need at all, our win-loss ratio is looking really poor right now. Our confidence is very low.

Our forwards deserve a lot of credit though. They should feel disappointed in the backs.

Rory i think your right- it wasnt a good tour choice to go NZ in my view..

mankiaow wrote:It's easy to critisize every Irish player after a match like that. They were playing a superb team in their own back yard.

I'm not sure what any team could have done to supress that black wave; certainly not any of the other teams I watched tonight. So less of the 'told you so' mullarkey.

Take the positives, a very steep learning curve and probably just what Ireland needs at this stage - that's how the best do it - now get on with it.

Well we got obliterated by an average English side in their back yard a few months ago too... whether its players or coaches they deserve to be criticised.

Ireland were absolutely walloped. Agreed. This tour could be a nightmare for them if NZ keep the foot on the gas and dont throw out a few schoolboys. Ireland will have no confidence now after that performance, if they even had any to begin with. It could be embarrassing for them.

Ireland supporters always blame the management when they fail and seem to think that they have a great generation of talent being wasted on the sidelines. It doesnt matter who they play, NZ will give them a roasting.

mystiroakey wrote:Rory i think your right- it wasnt a good tour choice to go NZ in my view..

If we lose all 3 games, then we have just crippled ourselves even further. The only positive to come out of that would be if Kidney resigned.

Gordy wrote:Ireland were absolutely walloped. Agreed. This tour could be a nightmare for them if NZ keep the foot on the gas and dont throw out a few schoolboys. Ireland will have no confidence now after that performance, if they even had any to begin with. It could be embarrassing for them.

Ireland supporters always blame the management when they fail and seem to think that they have a great generation of talent being wasted on the sidelines. It doesnt matter who they play, NZ will give them a roasting.

Gordy, who do you support? Honestly all you have contributed so far on this forum is snide digs against Ireland/Leinster.

Who is it you support then?

Gordy wrote:Ireland were absolutely walloped. Agreed. This tour could be a nightmare for them if NZ keep the foot on the gas and dont throw out a few schoolboys. Ireland will have no confidence now after that performance, if they even had any to begin with. It could be embarrassing for them.

Ireland supporters always blame the management when they fail and seem to think that they have a great generation of talent being wasted on the sidelines. It doesnt matter who they play, NZ will give them a roasting.

That's just rubbish,we've only blamed the management when they've shown they aren't up to it.No matter who was coaching us we'd still lose to NZ but that's not the point,it's the losses to all the 6 nations teams and the inept performances against teams outside the top 8 with little or no attempt to try something different that has brought on our anger.

Plus, if you want a perfect example of why coaching plays an importance role, you could tell that Wales were missing Gatland. They lacked their usual organisation and cohesion today, that usually sets them on the front foot. And guess what Ireland lacks? Organisation and cohesion, in attack. Which would make sense if you knew anything about Declan Kidney, and the teams he has coached previously.

Gordy its not the results its the performances...that is down to coaching is it not?

I think Ireland fans think that because they have had considerable success at provincial level that this should automatically translate into success at international level. And when it doesnt the coach gets blamed. Gatland, O'Sullivan, now Kidney. Its always the coach!

The Irish provinces have a big advantage at club level. The Irish system has taken full advantage and structured their club level well. But internationally its a level playing field and their players are not vastly superior to most other 6 nations teams and well behind the SH. I dont think they underperforming. I just think that is their level.

But their own fans always believe the grass is greener, better players on the bench, poor coaching holding them back etc.

So tell me again - why do the provinces have a big advantage at club level? Structure? Which comes down to coaching?

The only person who makes these statements (ie we apparently think our players are vastly superior to everyone else, Leinster best team in the world etc) is you. The backs were shocking today, and some players are not good enough despite the coaching.

In what way do the provinces have an advantage over everyone else? I dont get it

Don't fret Irish fans...there's always the soccer bandwagon....

Calm down, it was best in the world v 3rd in 6 nations.

The All Blacks are the only tri-nations side not showing vulnerabilities, it isn't a good time for Ireland to play them. Especially when talent like Bowe is absent.

Gordy wrote:I think Ireland fans think that because they have had considerable success at provincial level that this should automatically translate into success at international level. And when it doesnt the coach gets blamed. Gatland, O'Sullivan, now Kidney. Its always the coach!

The Irish provinces have a big advantage at club level. The Irish system has taken full advantage and structured their club level well. But internationally its a level playing field and their players are not vastly superior to most other 6 nations teams and well behind the SH. I dont think they underperforming. I just think that is their level.

But their own fans always believe the grass is greener, better players on the bench, poor coaching holding them back etc.

Nope we don't expect success at international level all we expect is a decent basic level of performance which Kidney has consistently failed to provide.While our players are not vastly superior to the 6N teams they are at a similar level and so consistently weak showings against these teams is unacceptable,I believe the management has to take most of the blame for this although the players are culpable too.

Gordy are you really trying to tell us that kidney and his staff are coaching the team well...

Kidney has delivered half of Irelands Grand Slams! O'Sullivan regulayly finished second with Ireland and won several triple crowns. Between the pair of them its been Irelands most successful period in their history!

Yet Ireland fans seem to think they are better than this! Consistency has been a hallmark of Ireland over the last decade. Ok, one grand slam and 6N title may be a poor return for the so called golden generation but you would think Ireland had been playing for the wooden spoon each year the way some people go on!

Finishing third in the 6 Nations with a last minute defeat to Wales and an away draw against France is hardly well below expectations is it?

I'd rather you answer my question - in what way are the provinces at an advantage in the club games against any other team?

The Celtic league set up, the province system, the squad size etc all give the Irish provinces a natural advantage.

Wales could have it too, but havent embraced it as well as the Irish and dont have the same financial power.

But the English league system and to a lesser extent France make it much harder for their club sides to be successful in the HC. This needs to be adressed in my opinion.

Gordy wrote:Kidney has delivered half of Irelands Grand Slams! O'Sullivan regulayly finished second with Ireland and won several triple crowns. Between the pair of them its been Irelands most successful period in their history!

Yet Ireland fans seem to think they are better than this! Consistency has been a hallmark of Ireland over the last decade. Ok, one grand slam and 6N title may be a poor return for the so called golden generation but you would think Ireland had been playing for the wooden spoon each year the way some people go on!

Finishing third in the 6 Nations with a last minute defeat to Wales and an away draw against France is hardly well below expectations is it?

No,we were pretty happy with what O'Sullivan delivered in the 6Nations it was our WC campaigns under his management that cost him.Obviously we wanted the breakthrough win in the 6N which he didn't manage but overall his tenure was successful.He got the sack after a shocking World Cup and a terrible 6 nations.He was over 7 years in the job and it was time to move on as he had nothing new to offer,Kidney has now had a mediocre WC and 3 average to awful 6N campaigns so the goodwill generated by his fantastic first year in charge has evaporated.

Gordy wrote:The Celtic league set up, the province system, the squad size etc all give the Irish provinces a natural advantage.

Wales could have it too, but havent embraced it as well as the Irish and dont have the same financial power.

But the English league system and to a lesser extent France make it much harder for their club sides to be successful in the HC. This needs to be adressed in my opinion.

Please elaborate for me. In what way does the Celtic league set up benefit Ireland? What is it that our province system does that gives us the advantage over other teams? Please explain this all to me. Where have you got this information?

Wonder how long it takes this wum to be banned - apparently his favourite player is O'Gara and he support the Border Reivers and Italy.....

Any chance we can just ban him now?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Gordy wrote:Kidney has delivered half of Irelands Grand Slams! O'Sullivan regulayly finished second with Ireland and won several triple crowns. Between the pair of them its been Irelands most successful period in their history!

Yet Ireland fans seem to think they are better than this! Consistency has been a hallmark of Ireland over the last decade. Ok, one grand slam and 6N title may be a poor return for the so called golden generation but you would think Ireland had been playing for the wooden spoon each year the way some people go on!

Finishing third in the 6 Nations with a last minute defeat to Wales and an away draw against France is hardly well below expectations is it?

No,we were pretty happy with what O'Sullivan delivered in the 6Nations it was our WC campaigns under his management that cost him.Obviously we wanted the breakthrough win in the 6N which he didn't manage but overall his tenure was successful.He got the sack after a shocking World Cup and a terrible 6 nations.He was over 7 years in the job and it was time to move on as he had nothing new to offer,Kidney has now had a mediocre WC and 3 average to awful 6N campaigns so the goodwill generated by his fantastic first year in charge has evaporated.

Which I put down to unrealistic expectations from their fans. Their last 6N being described as "awful" is a perfect example. They finished third. Terrible against England only. You seem to expect Ireland to be winning it every year!

Or maybe its just because our provinces are able to produce young talented players and play an exciting brand of rugby and are COACHED well

Sorry but under Kidney Ireland have finished 1st (Grand Slam), 2nd, 3rd and 3rd. This is described as awful by Ireland fans? If this is not deemed at least moderately successful then I think Ireland fans need a reality check no matter how much they harp on about coaching.

Please answer my question above. I need enlightened here.

Gordy wrote:



Which I put down to unrealistic expectations from their fans. Their last 6N being described as "awful" is a perfect example. They finished third. Terrible against England only. You seem to expect Ireland to be winning it every year!

No you're putting words in my mouth.

I expect us to be competitive every year,the England game was a freak and I don't blame Kidney for that at all he didn't have any options at TH so nothing he could have done.You didn't watch our games if you think we weren't terrible against Wales,we defended like a mid table J1 team standing off and letting the Welsh run over us.That had to be a gameplan devised by the management as normally we defend far more aggressively.The 2nd half against France was terrible too,we scored 2 fortunate tries through Bowe but instead of trying to win the game Kidney had us go out and try to defend a lead.This is pretty typical of him and the fact that it continually fails doesn't seem to discourage him from employing this tactic.The 1st half against Italy was pretty bad too but to his credit we ended up beating Italy comfortably at home,something we have struggled with under Kidney up until the WC.

The 6 nations wasn't awful because we finished 3rd it was awful because of the performances and tactics were awful.If our players were playing as well as they possibly could but still not getting results we wouldn't be calling for Kidney to leave.

guys, Gordy is entitled to his opinion, not sure why you are jumping down his throat so much. I think if a few of you had suffered through watching Ireland in the 90's you might have a little more sympathy for his views.

While I tend to agree that Kidney is not quite getting the best out of his players, wether through selection, tactics or coaching, the fact stands that just because the provinces are doing well doesn't mean the national side should be conquering all before it. I feel Gordy is pointing out a slight sense of entitlement in some Irish fans that is unrealistic, and disrespectful to our opponents.

We are entitled to our opinions too, hence why we are challenging his. I have asked him nicely to point out clearly what he means when he says the provinces are at an advantage but he hasn't really explained. There is absolutely no "sense of entitlement". So far he has stated that Leinster fans think they are the best in the world, that us irish fans think our players are better than everyone else etc.

If you can find me anywhere on this forum where this is the case, I shall happily apologise to Gordy. Otherwise, I think he is just a WUM and I find it hard to take him seriously, as he has frequent digs at the provinces and Ireland. It is quite annoying really.

I think it is clear Ireland are under-performing. We have the top clubs in Europe, but we are 8th in the world. That isn't good.

Our win-loss ratio is something like 50% too. It isn't a "sense of entitlement" for thinking we are better than that. That is rubbish for any team.

logie28 wrote:guys, Gordy is entitled to his opinion, not sure why you are jumping down his throat so much. I think if a few of you had suffered through watching Ireland in the 90's you might have a little more sympathy for his views.

While I tend to agree that Kidney is not quite getting the best out of his players, wether through selection, tactics or coaching, the fact stands that just because the provinces are doing well doesn't mean the national side should be conquering all before it. I feel Gordy is pointing out a slight sense of entitlement in some Irish fans that is unrealistic, and disrespectful to our opponents.

We feel he is putting words in our mouths.You can't tell Irish fans we expect to win the 6Nations every year when we don't that's just making stuff up to support his flawed argument.

Gordy wrote:The Celtic league set up, the province system, the squad size etc all give the Irish provinces a natural advantage.

Wales could have it too, but havent embraced it as well as the Irish and dont have the same financial power.

But the English league system and to a lesser extent France make it much harder for their club sides to be successful in the HC. This needs to be adressed in my opinion.

Well this a total lack of knowledge here its hard to know where to start. Didn't we have this fabled Celtic league system in place when the following teams won the Heineken Cup before an Irish team did? Leicester Tigers in 2001 and 2002, Toulouse in 2003, Wasps in 2004, Toulouse in 2005, and Wasps winning again in 2007. If you look at the actual balance sheets and money spent, the Blues and Ospreys in particular were actually spending more for a time than the Irish provinces. Yet they have failed in Europe for the most part yet have three grand slams. Why is this?

Wasn't the strength so we were told when English sides were dominating the European tournaments that the Premiership left them better prepared because of the physicality week in week out than us poor Celtic cousins lacked? It was their own problem that they imposed salary caps so clubs could not spend outside their limits. Why on earth is it anyone else's problem that EPL have limited their own clubs? As for the French league, your argument is so unbelievably garbled that its embarrassing. They have more more money than anyone else. Their top clubs spend a fortune and have bigger squads and should in theory the strongest clubs in the competition. One only has to watch the dross of the Pro14 at times this season and the dreadful play of the national side to see that French rugby is poor by their standards at the moment, and that has nothing more than tactical ineptitude and too many foreigners in their leagues than anything else.

Gordy wrote:Sorry but under Kidney Ireland have finished 1st (Grand Slam), 2nd, 3rd and 3rd. This is described as awful by Ireland fans? If this is not deemed at least moderately successful then I think Ireland fans need a reality check no matter how much they harp on about coaching.

Nonsensical statements. If you even put the tiniest bit of thought into this you would know that the difference between 2nd part and 4th part is often nothing more than points difference. We do not expect to win every season. Most Irish fans would settle for a team that is in contention for the competition, and under Kidney this has only happened once. We can accept defeat when we see our team with a clear tactical vision, or a team that is moving forward despite mixed results. Take Wales for instance. 18 months ago they were a team in crisis, and those of us on the old 606 can testify to the loud voices calling for Gatland's head. But he had a vision for the side, learned from his mistakes and look at where Wales are now.

Maybe if you learnt something about Irish rugby you might have something of value to add to this discussion. Until then, back under your bridge.

If you think he is a WUM not sure why you are engaging him, ignore him. And he has every right to express his opinion without needing to explain himself, but I'm also not sure why what he has said is so unusual.

My guess is he is alluding to the fact that the vast majority of the Irish squad is concentrated between the 3 main Irish provinces, who play in a league without relegation and with the certainty of year in year out Heineken cup participation. Meaning they can then manage their players gives them an perceived advantage over the English clubs in the Heineken cup.

Wether or not you agree with this doesn't mean he can't make his point, and while I'm disappointed Ireland haven't achieved more with the quality of players at their disposal in recent times, the sense of entitlement he and I mentioned is palpable in some.

Hookisms - thank you for bringing some much needed sense into this.

logie28 wrote:If you think he is a WUM not sure why you are engaging him, ignore him. And he has every right to express his opinion without needing to explain himself, but I'm also not sure why what he has said is so unusual.

My guess is he is alluding to the fact that the vast majority of the Irish squad is concentrated between the 3 main Irish provinces, who play in a league without relegation and with the certainty of year in year out Heineken cup participation. Meaning they can then manage their players gives them an perceived advantage over the English clubs in the Heineken cup.

Wether or not you agree with this doesn't mean he can't make his point, and while I'm disappointed Ireland haven't achieved more with the quality of players at their disposal in recent times, the sense of entitlement he and I mentioned is palpable in some.

Okay, without explaining myself, I think you just posted a load of rubbish. That is my opinion. Is that helpful?

Well if he's allowed make his point are we not allowed respond?

What sense of entitlement,what do you feel we think we are entitled to?We have already explained what we want and it is far and away from winning the 6 N every year.

Exactly. Are you trying to be the white knight here or something Logie?

Rory, once again as soon as I express an opinion you don't agree with you get all bitchy on me, touchy aren't you. I'm not looking for a row, the opposite, I'm was trying to encourage a bit of calm. I feel you need to learn to disagree with other people's views without instantly disrespecting them. Im afraid the knowledge of the game you display doesn't quite give you the right to instantly dismiss any other world view than your own.

asls, I think you've misunderstood my points. Responding is of course the whole point of this board, I was just wondering why people were getting so worked up over what was being said. Disagree of course, but to demand the poster explain himself as if he was talking absolutely madness rather than just expressing a valid opinion, (even if its one I don't actually agree with myself) comes across as a bit petulant.

You can't just come out with what gordy is saying and not justify it...that is being disrespectful imo

Okay I can see what you're saying but look at it from the other side.If someone tells you that you feel your country should be winning the 6 Nations every year when you don't and then uses that as a basis for debate would you not get a little peeved.

You have still not told me what you think Irish fans feel entitled to,again this is annoying as it seems like you're saying we feel we should be winning every match when we don't.

Hang on - you are telling everyone here off for disagreeing with Gordy. Do you not see how ridiculous you are being here? "Once again".. have I even talked to you on this forum before now? And please let me know who I am disrespecting. I think you are being disrespectful by saying some fans here feel a certain sense of entitlement, which is rubbish. So I told you it was rubbish. And how hypocritical, telling me I am disrespectful then trying to patronise me. Please enlighten me with your fantastic knowledge of the game, rather than dismiss mine without giving any insight of your own. You say I dismiss and disrespect people's views. Give me an example?

Nobody was getting worked up, everyone was asking Gordy to explain his points because so far he has come across as a WUM. If anything people are giving him a chance to actually explain things. You are the one causing trouble here.

Seriously, the audacity of that post is baffling Logie. Nobody is even demanding anything either. Stop creating a scenario that doesn't exist.

That's leinster tainment disappointed with wales but thank God I'm not an Ireland fan

Might as well just say throw my name in there, dreamer. Though I would argue that tone is hard to detect on a forum, and there is no aggression. I think Logie is creating problems that don't exist, and basically ruining any chance of a reasonable debate here.