Victor Ortiz vs Saul Alvarez - 15/09/12

First topic message reminder :

Ortiz vs Canelo's in the running for 15/09/12

Ortiz - 29-3-2 (22 KO's) has to get past Lopez in June 23 to be a possible opponent for Alvarez's next fight.

This would be A great fight in my opinion, first Prime athletic fighter Alvarez will be fighting both about 5'9'', Alvarez weigh's in at about 166-7 i fight night where as Ortiz comes around 162-164, so similar size - Excellent fight in my opinion - Huge respect to Golden Boy if they make it


http://www.boxingscene.com/victor-ortiz-running-face-sail-alvarez-on-9-15--53847

Update 12/06

Fight is officially set - The Main Event of Knockout Kings will be ALVAREZ VS ORTIZ -

http://www.boxingscene.com/saul-alvarez-victor-ortiz-finalized-9-15-on-showtime-ppv--53904

azania wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Is this a step up from the Williams bout that you vehemently condemned Az? If so just wondered what Ortiz has ever done at light-middle? To be fair I love this match up too, you're right, it's a great meshing of styles.

Yes it is. This kid is live. OK, so he lost to Floyd. Who wouldn't. No shame. The manner of the loss will give him all the excuses he wants as boxers lie more than a cheating spouse. The weight is irrelevant as Ortiz is huge. He'll come in at SMW limit come fight night.

Arum is trying to set up the Williams/Pac fight now.

I wouldn't be surprised Williams would put up a better showing than Mosley even if he's paralysed!

Ortiz came in for the Floyd fight at 164lbs. Size won't be his downfall against Canelo who wont be that much bigger than him.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

azania wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Is this a step up from the Williams bout that you vehemently condemned Az? If so just wondered what Ortiz has ever done at light-middle? To be fair I love this match up too, you're right, it's a great meshing of styles.

Yes it is. This kid is live. OK, so he lost to Floyd. Who wouldn't. No shame. The manner of the loss will give him all the excuses he wants as boxers lie more than a cheating spouse. The weight is irrelevant as Ortiz is huge. He'll come in at SMW limit come fight night.

Arum is trying to set up the Williams/Pac fight now.

I wouldn't be surprised Williams would put up a better showing than Mosley even if he's paralysed!

Ortiz came in for the Floyd fight at 164lbs. Size won't be his downfall against Canelo who wont be that much bigger than him.

There are no issues in this fight. A great matchup and will be a good fight to stream if on Primetime or BN.

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

azania wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Is this a step up from the Williams bout that you vehemently condemned Az? If so just wondered what Ortiz has ever done at light-middle? To be fair I love this match up too, you're right, it's a great meshing of styles.

Yes it is. This kid is live. OK, so he lost to Floyd. Who wouldn't. No shame. The manner of the loss will give him all the excuses he wants as boxers lie more than a cheating spouse. The weight is irrelevant as Ortiz is huge. He'll come in at SMW limit come fight night.

Arum is trying to set up the Williams/Pac fight now.

I wouldn't be surprised Williams would put up a better showing than Mosley even if he's paralysed!

Ortiz came in for the Floyd fight at 164lbs. Size won't be his downfall against Canelo who wont be that much bigger than him.

There are no issues in this fight. A great matchup and will be a good fight to stream if on Primetime or BN.

As long as Ortiz doesn't lose to Joseito Lopez next month, if he does then it will be someone else but not Lopez. I like the fight. I would have preferred Lara but no one wants to fight Lara except Paul Williams but no one wanted to fight him either.

Lopez will see his purse increase soon enough. Nothing will get in the way of this fight.

Ortiz was being groomed to be the man. But Maidana and Floyd plus his happy attitude after each loss burst his bubble and he's being used as an opponent to make Saul look good. I smell an upset if Ortiz is intelligent enough to realise that (I hope he is as he is even more stupid than Khan).

I think size will be a big factor. Ortiz style derives from being big at his weight and bullying fighters. He wont have this size advantage anymore against Canelo.

Sure he can come in at 165 on fight night, this meant in the past he might have 10lbs on a guy like Berto. He wont have any size on Alvarez which is a major disadvantage for him and the way he fights.

manos de piedra wrote:I think size will be a big factor. Ortiz style derives from being big at his weight and bullying fighters. He wont have this size advantage anymore against Canelo.

Sure he can come in at 165 on fight night, this meant in the past he might have 10lbs on a guy like Berto. He wont have any size on Alvarez which is a major disadvantage for him and the way he fights.

By size I mean weight in that Ortiz is not a blown up LMW. He will be a genuine LMW and imo ideal for that weight also.

At least it will finally establish where Alvarez chin is at

Ortiz has decked everyone bar mayweather an if Mosley can catch Alvarez than Ortiz will. Canelo isn't as aggressive as Maidana also (although entertaining) so i dont think Ortiz will be battered relentlessly

Also, for everyone saying that Ortiz won't be able to use his style
-Berto weighed 160lbs, 4lbs less than Ortiz
-Peterson weighed 153lbs, 2lbs less than Ortiz
-Maidana weighed 152lbs, 2lbs less than Ortiz

Ortiz doesn't outweigh these guys by 10lbs+ etc. If he comes in 170, which isn't to unrealistic he will have the same weight advantage he held over Berto

He didnt really fare particular well in the Maidana or Peterson fights though.

manos de piedra wrote:He didnt really fare particular well in the Maidana or Peterson fights though.

Not Maidana fight but he got jobbed on the peterson fight, he dominated him for the first 6 rounds getting 3 knockdowns then decided to box, maybe due to the fact he was drained and couldn't keep up the pace, then lost the last couple but should have got the W

In the peterson fight I reckon he tired down the stretch mainly due to weight making.

Ortiz to KO Alvarez is my pick. Not points or a ref stoppage due to cuts, but a straight out knock out with Saul lying down, looking up and counting stars.

I didnt think the Peterson fight was a bad decision overall. I think you may be right about LWW not being the best place for him. For someone who is big at welter it must have hard making lww. But I think he is used to a size advantage which aids his style and I cant see him having size on Alvarez. I thinks its quite unlikely he hits 170lb and if he does I think given his frame it would be too heavy. I think around 165lb is a good weight for him and hes just able to hit lower weights and rehydrate. Piling on even more weight? Im not sure. I would be pretty surprised if the pair did not weigh in quite similar.

WHU_Champo_League_in_7Yrs wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:He didnt really fare particular well in the Maidana or Peterson fights though.

Not Maidana fight but he got jobbed on the peterson fight, he dominated him for the first 6 rounds getting 3 knockdowns then decided to box, maybe due to the fact he was drained and couldn't keep up the pace, then lost the last couple but should have got the W

Had it clear 5 rounds each, Peterson got dropped twice, but it was peterson who changed tactics and started using different punches and stayed less in front of ortiz.

azania wrote:By virtue of the fact that Berto got up when decked and fought back, his powers of recovery seemed ok.

That's why Saul v Ortiz is a good fight. Both their styles gel. Ortiz will take Saul to places he's never been before and Saul will apply the pressure. Ortiz will withstand the pressure and fire back for a win inside 10.

Or he'll capitulate in 5 and smiles through the post fight interview and conference.

he got hurt in round 1 and didn't recover properly till about round 8, his legs completely went - I also think this is a great close fight and to everone's suprise goes full 12 for canelo to win a close clear decison

[quote="azania"]

TheMackemMawler wrote:Also I don't believe Ortiz's performances at light welter were indicative of somone who is NOT weight drained. Rather, he seems as though he's one of the few who are genetically adapted to the de/re-hydration cycle. However, comfortably gaining weight for fight night is different to adjusting to being punched by a light-middleweight when you are predominantly accustomed to being punched by light-welterweights.

I made a typo, it completey changed the meaning of what i wrote, the correction is in bold. Basically, dropping water weight does not seem to affect his performances, some people deal better with cutting weight than others . Ortiz is one of them. In the past he's gained a lot of weight for night, and he'll do the same against Canelo. The only difference is, this time, he is fighting a light-middleweight

Don't tell me Az has boarded the 'Canelo Hate Campaign Train' again? Sigh.

Canelo UD, too much ring smart for Ortiz and I like Victor but Saul has this one.

SharkSoul wrote:
Don't tell me Az has boarded the 'Canelo Hate Campaign Train' again? Sigh.

Canelo UD, too much ring smart for Ortiz and I like Victor but Saul has this one.

Where have I insinuated that I hate Canelo. I give him credit for being a superbly talented novice who was gift wrapped a world title belt.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G299JdOVepQ&feature=relmfu

[quote="TheMackemMawler"]

azania wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Also I don't believe Ortiz's performances at light welter were indicative of somone who is NOT weight drained. Rather, he seems as though he's one of the few who are genetically adapted to the de/re-hydration cycle. However, comfortably gaining weight for fight night is different to adjusting to being punched by a light-middleweight when you are predominantly accustomed to being punched by light-welterweights.

I made a typo, it completey changed the meaning of what i wrote, the correction is in bold. Basically, dropping water weight does not seem to affect his performances, some people deal better with cutting weight than others . Ortiz is one of them. In the past he's gained a lot of weight for night, and he'll do the same against Canelo. The only difference is, this time, he is fighting a light-middleweight

It was right the first time before i added the NOT. Sorry to mess the board up

[quote="TheMackemMawler"]

TheMackemMawler wrote:

azania wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Also I don't believe Ortiz's performances at light welter were indicative of somone who is NOT weight drained. Rather, he seems as though he's one of the few who are genetically adapted to the de/re-hydration cycle. However, comfortably gaining weight for fight night is different to adjusting to being punched by a light-middleweight when you are predominantly accustomed to being punched by light-welterweights.

I made a typo, it completey changed the meaning of what i wrote, the correction is in bold. Basically, dropping water weight does not seem to affect his performances, some people deal better with cutting weight than others . Ortiz is one of them. In the past he's gained a lot of weight for night, and he'll do the same against Canelo. The only difference is, this time, he is fighting a light-middleweight

It was right the first time before i added the NOT. Sorry to mess the board up

just right the damn post out again

azania wrote:

KO-KING wrote:

azania wrote:

Did Cotto quit when he took a knee?

Cotto was seriously damaged - he was bleading from everywhere the ear, eye by the cheat- Ortiz was never beaten that bad, he was just in a hard fight, Did cotto quit against clottey when things started going wrong when things went wrong with the cut.

I think Ortiz made the correct decision, few more rounds of maidana beating could have damaged himself and finished his career, he shot himself in the foot by his post fight interview, if I was in his position I would have done the same thing but Would have lied my arse off and make things up like I was getting a real bad headache that is why I decided to stop.

Arguably Ortiz was seriously drained making 140. His next fight was 147 and he was massive come fight night. How he made 140 is beyond me. He proved himself against Berto which was a gut check and he passed.

The only problem was the interview. He's not the brightest of chaps I'll give you that. But he's not a quitter or a 'coward'.

He had a few journey at the WW limit where he didnt weigh anything close to the limit, then he fought Nate Campbell at LWW on the undercard of Khan/Malignaggi, then he fought Vivian Harris and weighed 142, in a WWfight then fought Peterson at 140, AND THEN he fought his first real competitive fight at 147 and fought Berto. Don't think he was too weight drained really was easily able to make the limit a fair few more times before an opportunity arised at 147 and he took it.

Alex

Its very rare that fighters in non title nouts weigh in under their weight limit. Usually they come in a couple of pounds over the limit. They hardly go a full weight division above as the body gets used to that weight and it becomes even more tricky to lose the extra pound (which according to some doesn't make a blind bit of difference).

Yes, but he still stayed at 140 for ages before moving to 147, and the Campbell and Peterson fights were very important fights for him. I don't think he was particularly weight drained in any of the fights, he looked physically strong and looked to have plenty in the tank. The desire drained out of him against Maidana.

I don't know what Canelo has to do to impress you Az. If he beats Ortiz would you give the kid credit then?

No doubt Ortiz can bang and Alvarez will take a few shots to the chin would you still think he's chinny then or do we have to put him in with a heavyweight to dispel your opinion?

Have a bit of a soft spot for Ortiz and think he may cause an upset.. Don't think he can win on points but can see a late KO with both hitting the canvas along the way.. Really good match up imo.

SharkSoul wrote:
I don't know what Canelo has to do to impress you Az. If he beats Ortiz would you give the kid credit then?

No doubt Ortiz can bang and Alvarez will take a few shots to the chin would you still think he's chinny then or do we have to put him in with a heavyweight to dispel your opinion?

Where have I said he doesn't impress me. I have described him as talented and went as far as call him very good. What I didn't like is the manner he was gift wrapped a world title against frankly a useless Light Middleweight. By useless I mean someone who is an average welter who has lost at JWW to some average British fighter and was having his first bout at LMW.

His first defence was against an average euro level fighter who probably deserved a world title shot but was always going to lose against an above euro level type of fighter. Then he was fed Mosely who hadn't won a fight in eons.

I have called this matchup as an exciting as both guys come to fight and always going forward. Its a good fight. I pick Ortiz. Ortiz will land and knock out the chinny Saul.

AlexHuckerby wrote:Yes, but he still stayed at 140 for ages before moving to 147, and the Campbell and Peterson fights were very important fights for him. I don't think he was particularly weight drained in any of the fights, he looked physically strong and looked to have plenty in the tank. The desire drained out of him against Maidana.

That may be so, but I find it strange he wasn't having weight issues seeing as he looked tight even at WW.

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Yes, but he still stayed at 140 for ages before moving to 147, and the Campbell and Peterson fights were very important fights for him. I don't think he was particularly weight drained in any of the fights, he looked physically strong and looked to have plenty in the tank. The desire drained out of him against Maidana.

That may be so, but I find it strange he wasn't having weight issues seeing as he looked tight even at WW.

Ortiz isn't normal - He is one of the most athletically gifted fighter ever - he has got extreme strength good power decent speed, He is just good at everything from cycling to running to surfing - the problem he has is he doesn't know how to put it all together

I wouldn't read too much into Ortiz over the limit fight weights because they would have been light welterweight fights with an agreement of a few pounds over the weight which is common in non title fights.

KO-KING wrote:

azania wrote:

AlexHuckerby wrote:Yes, but he still stayed at 140 for ages before moving to 147, and the Campbell and Peterson fights were very important fights for him. I don't think he was particularly weight drained in any of the fights, he looked physically strong and looked to have plenty in the tank. The desire drained out of him against Maidana.

That may be so, but I find it strange he wasn't having weight issues seeing as he looked tight even at WW.

Ortiz isn't normal - He is one of the most athletically gifted fighter ever - he has got extreme strength good power decent speed, He is just good at everything from cycling to running to surfing - the problem he has is he doesn't know how to put it all together

Maybe he should consider a career change because he isn't up to much as a boxer. He's a bottle merchant as well.

Think Berto may disagree with that slightly, if he isn't up to much then we may as well get rid of 99% of boxers.

I've never been that impressed. If he is so good at all these other things then he should give it a go because he's pretty average. He's a quitter as well.

I can see why Ortiz gets some stick, but he'll take on anyone and has an exciting style. His IQ may well be lower than his shoe size and his last big fight went out with a whimper instead of a roar.

However the first time he was called a quitter he worked hard to earn a shot at Berto, and worked very hard on the night to beat him in a FOTY contender. His heart is in the game. Look at the credit ODLH got just for trying. Canelo has Ortiz' size and strength, but also has far more skill to go with it so I pick him to win, but credit to Ortiz for taking it.

I suppose Benn, Duran, Vit and Cotto et al are all quitters.

He got handed a shot at Berto. That fight was off the back of the Peterson fight. He was lucky in the end to get a draw in a fight that after 4 rounds he looked like he had in the bag. There were a few wins over old men as well and they were all at 140lbs Berto was champ at 147lbs.

Now he's getting handed another undeserved shot at a title after an abysmal showing against Floyd. I reckon Canelo will spark him out early he's wide open and his chin is none to clever.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:He got handed a shot at Berto. That fight was off the back of the Peterson fight. He was lucky in the end to get a draw in a fight that after 4 rounds he looked like he had in the bag. There were a few wins over old men as well and they were all at 140lbs Berto was champ at 147lbs.

Now he's getting handed another undeserved shot at a title after an abysmal showing against Floyd. I reckon Canelo will spark him out early he's wide open and his chin is none to clever.

Did Saul deserve his title shot? Did Mosely deserve a title shot against Pac and ridiculously against Saul?

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:He got handed a shot at Berto. That fight was off the back of the Peterson fight. He was lucky in the end to get a draw in a fight that after 4 rounds he looked like he had in the bag. There were a few wins over old men as well and they were all at 140lbs Berto was champ at 147lbs.

Now he's getting handed another undeserved shot at a title after an abysmal showing against Floyd. I reckon Canelo will spark him out early he's wide open and his chin is none to clever.

Did Saul deserve his title shot? Did Mosely deserve a title shot against Pac and ridiculously against Saul?

JBW said he worked hard to get his shot at Berto after the Maidana loss I was disagreeing with that. I'm well aware he isn't the only one to be handed a title shot.

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:He got handed a shot at Berto. That fight was off the back of the Peterson fight. He was lucky in the end to get a draw in a fight that after 4 rounds he looked like he had in the bag. There were a few wins over old men as well and they were all at 140lbs Berto was champ at 147lbs.

Now he's getting handed another undeserved shot at a title after an abysmal showing against Floyd. I reckon Canelo will spark him out early he's wide open and his chin is none to clever.

Did Saul deserve his title shot? Did Mosely deserve a title shot against Pac and ridiculously against Saul?

JBW said he worked hard to get his shot at Berto after the Maidana loss I was disagreeing with that. I'm well aware he isn't the only one to be handed a title shot.

He proved he deserved it by beating a legit champion to win the title. Who has Saul beaten to even be mentioned in the same breath as Ortiz? Hatton? Rhodes? Doing a funky house dance against Cotto the fat lightweight?

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:

azania wrote:

SugarRayRussell (PBK) wrote:He got handed a shot at Berto. That fight was off the back of the Peterson fight. He was lucky in the end to get a draw in a fight that after 4 rounds he looked like he had in the bag. There were a few wins over old men as well and they were all at 140lbs Berto was champ at 147lbs.

Now he's getting handed another undeserved shot at a title after an abysmal showing against Floyd. I reckon Canelo will spark him out early he's wide open and his chin is none to clever.

Did Saul deserve his title shot? Did Mosely deserve a title shot against Pac and ridiculously against Saul?

JBW said he worked hard to get his shot at Berto after the Maidana loss I was disagreeing with that. I'm well aware he isn't the only one to be handed a title shot.

He proved he deserved it by beating a legit champion to win the title. Who has Saul beaten to even be mentioned in the same breath as Ortiz? Hatton? Rhodes? Doing a funky house dance against Cotto the fat lightweight?

He proved he was as good as Berto you can't change the fact he never deserved the shot.

He got handed it he wasn't even top 4 at 140lbs. Maidana, Khan, Alexander and Bradley were all ranked above him.

Better than Berto you mean.

Of course he didn't deserve a shot. But at least he was ranked in the top 5 of a division, unlike Hatton when he fought Saul who in turn was not ranked. WBC eh? Gotta love how they seem to uphold the moral standards of boxing when they got miffed at Haye/Chisora.

azania wrote:Better than Berto you mean.

Of course he didn't deserve a shot. But at least he was ranked in the top 5 of a division, unlike Hatton when he fought Saul who in turn was not ranked. WBC eh? Gotta love how they seem to uphold the moral standards of boxing when they got miffed at Haye/Chisora.

That was ridiculous neither of them had ever fought at 154lbs before. But we know what the WBC are like when it comes to Mexicans they handed Morales a title and the pleasure of becoming Mexicos first 4 weight world champion.

And therein lay my criticism of Saul. Good fighter but didn't deserve the gift wrapped present he was given. Was also given some gimme defenses and all of a sudden he's a great champ.

I've always said he was a good novice and prospect. That's about it. Chinny also. If a fat LW can made a big LMW do a bambi dance, what will happen is a big punching WW lands. Sayonara Saul.

He never deserved his title but there is around 80 title holders in the sport and probably about 60 of them don't deserve the belts they have and most of the challengers don't deserve the shot they get.

Ortiz' chin is nothing special either. I think Saul is the better boxer and will land the bigger cleaner shots first.

I reckon Ortiz has the better chin. He's been hit by better fighters and didn't get KO'd. OK Floyd took the free shot and laid him out.

Saul is over hyped to be honest. A good fighter, but if he had black hair, he'd be just another left hooking Mexican.

azania wrote:I reckon Ortiz has the better chin. He's been hit by better fighters and didn't get KO'd. OK Floyd took the free shot and laid him out.

Saul is over hyped to be honest. A good fighter, but if he had black hair, he'd be just another left hooking Mexican.

but he's been hit by smaller fighters -

I didn't expect alot of hate - against ortiz and Alvarez

Everyone saying that they didn't deserve a title shot - One beat berto = who was top5 WW, Alvarez beat the number 1 contender at that time and mandatory for WBC - Ryan Rhodes

KO-KING wrote:

azania wrote:I reckon Ortiz has the better chin. He's been hit by better fighters and didn't get KO'd. OK Floyd took the free shot and laid him out.

Saul is over hyped to be honest. A good fighter, but if he had black hair, he'd be just another left hooking Mexican.

but he's been hit by smaller fighters -

I didn't expect alot of hate - against ortiz and Alvarez

Everyone saying that they didn't deserve a title shot - One beat berto = who was top5 WW, Alvarez beat the number 1 contender at that time and mandatory for WBC - Ryan Rhodes

And how good Is Ryan? Nice bloke and I like watching him fight, but seriously, he was never that good and only got his shot because the Mexican WBC knew he would be a good fodder for their new man. The days of earning a shot at the title is long gone. Its all about how much money can be made.

He was the number one contender long before alvarez won the title.

It emphasises my point in that the days of earning a shot has long gone. What did Saul do to earn a shot other than being a marketable, ginger haired Mexican?